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Old September 11, 2012, 09:26 PM   #52
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Join Date: July 20, 2005
Location: Indiana
Posts: 10,167
Originally posted by Hal
Guess what, the Colt Python and S&W 686 in the test were both running lots of high extreme spreads. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that those guns have cylinder gaps that are excessive or at least on the high side of normal.

& that negates the results how?
You're talking nonsense now and grasping at straws.
How can you dismiss real world results?
The point is that because two specific guns display high extreme spreads, that does not make the phenomenon common. As I noted in a previous post, high extreme spreads are often indicative of an anomaly with a particular gun or ammunition. Two guns does not a large enough sample for something to be declared "common" make. If extreme spreads of 100fps or more were as common as you suggest, then why did we see only one extreme spread of over 100fps in all of the .357 Magnum chronograph tests from Hi Powers and Handguns and no extreme spreads of over 100fps from any .357 Magnum loads tested by BBTI in any of the .357 Magnum guns except the S&W 586 and Colt Python?

Actually - I'm having quite a bit of difficulty even reading what your posting to be perfectly honest.
You keep trying to put words in my mouth & say things that I never said..

Please refer to my previous post. A K-Frame is one of the larger .357 snubs made. Most of the people looking at .357 Snubs these days are looking at small frame guns like a S&W J-Frame, Ruger SP101, Ruger LCR, or Taurus 605/650/651 all of which are smaller than a Browning Hi Power. You're cherry picking one of the larger .357 Snubs while ignoring the smaller and more common ones. If you want to look at full size autos, then let's consider the following: a Beretta 92 FS with a 4.9" barrel is 8.5" long while a S&W M67 (same size as a K-Frame Magnum) is 8.88" long. In comparing velocities of those sorts of guns, we find on BBTI's data that all the 125gr .357 Magnum loads broke 1400fps from the 4" revolver barrel but none of the 124-125gr 9mm loads could break 1300fps from the 4.9" Beretta's barrel.

#1 - I didn't, as you claim, *cherry pick* anything.
I had a model 66 snub in my hands.
I'd just finished cleaning my Hi Power and it was laying on the table.
I layed the 66 on top of the Hi Power and discovered they were the same size.
That was the last straw for the 66 as far as I was concerned.

How is that cherry picking?
In a previous post, you stated this:

Please refer to my first post...
I made the comment that I placed the Hi Power right down on top of the model 66 - and guess what???
They were nearly the same exact size.

Nope - I''m making a 100% fair comparison there.
If two guns are the same size and weight, where's the difference?

A snub nose K frame is a pretty hefty piece.
The small grips tht S&W has can reduce the size a litte - but - not by a whole lot.
And before that, you said this:

I fail to see any significant difference between a 124 gr 9mm out of a Browning Hi Power or any 125 gr . 357 out of a 3" or less snub.
So, follow me here:

You state or at least infer that, because a 125gr .357 Magnum from a <3" barrel has similar ballistics to a 9mm from a >4" barrel (no argument on that point if you're talking a 9mm +P or +P+) and your M66 is roughly the same size as a full-size 9mm, in this case a Browning Hi-Power, that the .357 snub has no advantage over the full-size 9mm.

I responded to this by pointing out that many, if not most, .357 Magnum snubs are substantially smaller than your M66 was, and thus are also smaller than your Hi-Power, so the .357 snub does have a size advantage over a full-size 9mm. I also pointed out that in order to get a 9mm the same size as a small-frame .357 snub, you have to go to a compact or subcompact model with a barrel of 3-3.5" which will, in turn, produce lower velocity than either the .357 Magnum snub or the full-size 9mm.

To that, you replied that your comparison was "100% fair" and completely ignored the fact that there are many .357 snubs available which are much smaller than your M66 but still produce similar velocity.

By choosing to compare only one of the larger .357 snubs even though I pointed out that there are many smaller .357 revolvers available, you've cherry picked the guns being compared in an attempt to negate the size advantage that a .357 snub can offer over a 9mm that delivers similar ballistics.

As I pointed out before, the S&W Model 60 with a 2 1/8" barrel has an overall length of 6.56". That's a fairly reasonable representative gun for a small-frame .357 snub as it's neither the largest nor the smallest available. Now, there is no 9mm semi-auto pistol currently made by S&W, Ruger, Glock, Beretta, CZ, Sig, HK, Browning or any other manufacturer that I am aware of that has both a barrel longer than 4" and an overall length of less than 7". So, in order to get a 9mm semi-automatic pistol that is the same size or smaller than a S&W Model 60 with a 2 1/8" barrel, you will have to get one with a barrel shorter than 4" which will reduce the muzzle velocity of a 124gr bullet to less that that of a full-power 125gr bullet from the M60. Therefore, the S&W M60 has an advantage of either size or power over a 9mm semi-automatic depending on which compromise you choose to make with the auto.
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