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Old March 2, 2010, 05:08 AM   #74
Senior Member
Join Date: November 28, 2004
Location: Silicon Valley, Ca
Posts: 7,117
Originally Posted by bumpandrun
...first, one must realize that while California has some strict gun control policies, they are in no way the worst, and I can tolerate most of them.(The 10-day waiting period is excessive, but an annoyance more than anything.) I've been around a lot of gun shops in NorCal, and had many conversations with gun owners. One thing that we all agree on for the most part is that Open Carrying is ONE OF THE STUPIDEST THINGS YOU CAN DO IN CA. The general consensus is: "Hey, we support your right to carry, but you look like a bunch of morons gathering at the local Starbucks packing unloaded guns. Stop embarrassing the rest of us." Now, again, dont get me wrong. I'm very pro-gun, and I support the PRINCIPLE of the O.C. crowd. Just not their actions.
California's CCW permit system is a joke. Permits are tightly controlled by CLEOs to use as "rewards" for contributions, friendly gov't staffers, some reporters and well-connected types. The state laws prohibit carrying a loaded weapon in any incorporated city or where shooting is prohibited by law. In rural counties (less than 200K population) CLEOs may issue an open carry permit, but it is valid only in that those smaller rural counties.

Oddly enough, an unloaded firearm worn openly in a belt holster is not illegal. One subsection of the law [12031(e)] allows police to inspect the gun to ensure it is, in fact, unloaded. Of course this is fraught with peril because officers are trained that the public display of any gun is a potential felony threat to their safety.

Originally Posted by Skans
FWIW, I can understand the reason to require concealed carry as opposed to open carry in "shall issue" states. I figure it this way - individual States should be permitted to declare that either Open Carry, Concealed Carry, or both are permitted, but they should not dissalow both Open and Concealed Carry

And this is precisely the point of the O.C. crowd. The law permits it and it is legal. Thus, the whole point is to exercise what little rights we have in CA and remain within the law. But California LEOs are not prepared for this, despite a number of bulletins from agencies around the state.

One questions whether 12031(e) is even constitutional. If the person is openly carrying an unloaded gun, it's a legal activity for which police cannot detain you. It's about like police stopping you because you're walking down the street openly carrying a 12-pack of Budweiser.

The legal aspects are that the officer may currently remove and check the weapon and if he finds that it is unloaded, return it to the person and cease the detention. They are not allowed to record the serial number and "run it", nor demand your ID and "check you out" before letting you go. Unfortunately LAPD and several other cities haven't gotten the word and are routinely violating people's rights with long detainments.

The OC movement is simply attempting to exercise their rights under the law. They are also safeguarding themselves by recording encounters to documente the abuses by LE officers. Even though something is legal, of police are abusive of their authority and can create an oppressive, fearful attitude, people will lose their rights.

One other fun thing about California carry laws. I spoke with an asst. D.A. a few years ago. I asked him to define what constitutes an "unconcealed" or "flashed" gun when one has a CCW permit. He hedged a bit and finally said that if any portion of the gun or holster is visible, it violates the terms of the CCW. Yet, when asked what makes it a "concealed" weapon if one has a gun on their belt, he said that anything covering part of the gun or holster to attempt to make it "less visible".

In other words, if the bottom 1/4 of your holster is visible, as a CCW holder, it's illegal because it is NOT concealed. But if you open carry and cover the upper 1/4, leaving 6" of holster exposed, it's illegal because it IS concealed.
BillCA in CA (Unfortunately)

Last edited by BillCA; March 3, 2010 at 06:34 AM.
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