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Old July 29, 2009, 09:06 PM   #34
Frank Ettin
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 8,758
Originally Posted by peetzakilla
...Here's an example of no common sense and being unteachable: I own a pizza shop. It takes about 15 minutes, start of preparation to customers hands, to make chicken wings....
I wouldn't say that's about a lack of common sense or, necessarily, being unteachable. It sounds like you're talking about a fairly lazy, unmotivated person without any great interest in excelling at his job. Why? Who knows. Maybe he's just not too bright. Or maybe he's gotten away with slacking off so long, he has no interest in bothering to do things right. Maybe he needs some motivation, like knowing he's going to get fired unless he does these sorts of things correctly. Or maybe he's brighter than we think, and he has you trained to accept sub-par performance.

So called common sense can get people into a whole lot of trouble, especially when dealing with technical matters. I've seen many people take perfectly logical, common sense approaches to legal or tax problems and get themselves into expensive muddles.

I've also seen skilled business people successfully apply what they have called "common sense" approaches to complex matters. But when their background is explored, one finds that they have long experience in the field and that what they characterize as mere "common sense" is really judgment forged by that experience.

And of course there are people who just can't learn some things. If you're unteachable, maybe you don't get to become a doctor or a lawyer or an airline pilot. And if you're really super unteachable, maybe you don't get to work in a pizzeria.

Originally Posted by peetzakilla
...How much training do you think the average person is going to take "on demand"?...
I don't know, but that's not really the question. How skillful and knowledgeable should people who want to carry a loaded gun in public be? I'm not sure I have an answer to that either; but it's something more than a few hours of class work and hitting a big target close in with 10 rounds, and less than expected of a member of a SWAT team. And it's also closer to the former than the latter.

If a standard is set, it will be up to those who want to carry a loaded gun in public to take the class and meet the standard. If it poses a financial burden on some people, let's rally local RKBA organizations to raise money to help; and let's rally qualified instructors to donate time. (Neither I, nor the people I teach with, receive any compensation. Class fees just cover expenses, range fees, ammunition we supply, etc.)

I also think that any standard should not be set by the usual crowd of political hacks or persons antagonistic to private citizens carrying guns in public. Standards should be set by shooting instructors, trainers and shooting organizations.

Originally Posted by peetzakilla
How many people in America actually carry a gun? It's small percentage of people, tiny tiny percentage. THOSE people we have to get trained.
Yes I agree. Those people need to be trained.

Originally Posted by peetzakilla
...virtually everybody in America drives a car. What is the required training? NOTHING, in most places...
I also think we need to set much higher standards for the issuance of drivers licenses.

Originally Posted by green-grizzly
...I could point to lots of instances where cops, even FBI agents with loads of training, used deadly force incorrectly....
And all that means is that training isn't perfect. But how would things have worked out without their training. Mistakes by trained people are usually analyzed for the purposes of finding ways to improve training, not to justify discarding training.
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