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Old October 31, 2008, 01:36 PM   #46
Senior Member
Join Date: February 21, 2001
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 402
It's interesting to observe the regional/geographic differences in opinions. And people have valid easons for the different viewpoints.

The guy from Illinois probably needs to be be very concerned about jury perceptions if he shoots a home invader too many times. Same would be likely for parts of New York and California.

Folks from more conservative jurisdictions with laws that don't inordinately restrict a homeowner's right of self defense, and certainly the ones from Louisiana, can focus on the more important task of ensuring that a home invader is rendered incapable of harming them or their loved ones.

Even down here tapdancing would be a bit over the top. As would shooting an incapacitated invader in front of the cops - unless the homeowner could articulate the reason why he felt he was still threatened.

As far as needing more than 2 shots with a .45 CP, we had a very instructive incident here a couple of years ago. There's a link below, but basically:

1. A local cop shot a suspect in the abdomen with his issued .40 Glock (after suspect attacked the officer rather than submit to arrest). After being shot, the suspect continued beating the cop and commenced trying to disarm the cop.

2. Local "Good Samaritan" (GS) responded to cop's pleas for help. When the suspect failed to heed the GS's command to stop, the GS shot suspect (who was on top of cop, still attempting the disarm) in the torso (some reports said in the chest while some said in the back) with his .45 ACP (230 grain Federal Hydra Shok).

3. When the first shot by the GS proved ineffective in stopping the attack, and after the suspect ignored another verbal warning, GS again shot suspect in the torso (GS shot #2).

4. Same result (suspect still trying to kill cop), another warning by GS and another shot by GS. (GS shot #3)

5. Same result (suspect still trying to kill cop), another ignored warning and so yet another hit from GS's .45. (GS shot #4)

5. GS fired his 5th shot into the suspect's head, ending the fight.

** Coroner's report showed all but one of the shots (one in abdomen, four in torso, and one in brain) would have proved fatal. In this case only the brain shot put an immediate end to the threat on the officer's life. Toxicology reports, surprisingly, showed no drugs in the suspect's system.

Yes, sometimes more than two shots from a .45 ACP will be needed. In this case it took one from a .40 plus five from a .45 to end the threat.
Here's one of the articles from the Baton Rouge newspaper:

Investigation Details of Temple Shooting Released

Advocate staff writers
Published: Dec 23, 2006

After Perry Stephens shot George Temple II five times in a parking lot in February, he put his hands in the air and turned to the Baton Rouge police officer Temple had been fighting.

“Did I do the right thing?” Stephens asked.

The officer, Brian Harrison, didn’t answer. Instead, he removed the clip from Stephens’ .45-caliber pistol and put the ammunition and gun on the trunk of a nearby vehicle. Harrison then sent a message out on his radio that shots had been fired and paramedics were needed.

Temple, the man who had just been shot, looked at Stephens before taking his last breath.

Those are some of the details in an investigative file released this week by the East Baton Rouge Parish Sheriff’s Office, which probed the Feb. 17 shooting.

Stephens fired the shots as Temple fought with Harrison after a traffic stop in the parking lot of the AutoZone at 9007 Greenwell Springs Road.

Stephens, 56, shot Temple once in the head and four times in the back. Harrison also shot Temple, once in the stomach.

The purpose of the now-closed investigation was to determine whether Harrison or Stephens should be arrested. The Sheriff’s Office found no probable cause for an arrest, and an East Baton Rouge Parish grand jury declined to indict anyone.

The Baton Rouge Police Department has completed its own internal probes into the shooting, concluding 32-year-old Harrison did not violate any policies, spokesman Sgt. Don Kelly said.

Witness accounts
In investigating the killing, the Sheriff’s Office interviewed Harrison, Stephens and several witnesses. While all painted Temple as the aggressor, not everyone agreed upon what sparked the fight.

One witness said it started after Temple refused to let Harrison search his car. Another said Temple began throwing punches from inside his car after Harrison tried to get him to leave the funeral procession. Others variously said the fight began after Temple refused to put his hands behind his back, stop talking on his cell phone or get out of his car.

Sheriff Greg Phares said Wednesday it’s not unusual for witnesses to differ. He noted that in the Temple case, most of the witnesses were unsure of how the fight started because they didn’t pay attention until the struggle began or the shots were fired.

Harrison told investigators that after he pulled over Temple — who was driving a Mercedes — for breaking into a funeral procession, the man would not comply with his demands.

“I don’t know why you are doing this,” Harrison quoted Temple as saying. “This is not going anywhere. This is just a waste of time. Call your boss. Look what kind of car I’m driving, man. This will all be taken care of.”

Harrison said that after he wrote the ticket, Temple tried to bribe him.

Temple “pulled a big wad of money out of his pocket and asked him how much it would cost to have Harrison tear up the ticket,” the sheriff’s investigators reported.

According to the report, Temple had $3,531.61 in the pockets of his jeans. He also had a 9 mm semiautomatic pistol in the center console of his Mercedes. The gun was loaded with five bullets, one of which was in the chamber.

Harrison said that after the bribery attempt, he asked Temple to step out of his car. Temple got out but grabbed his cell phone to try to make a call and wouldn’t put his hands behind his back, Harrison said.

Harrison said he grabbed Temple’s left wrist and put it behind his back. That’s when “all hell broke loose,” the report says.

“Temple got real tense and pushed himself into the door (of his Mercedes),” Harrison said. “He wasn’t complying.”

Harrison said he then squirted pepper spray twice into Temple’s face, but it did not “have the desired effect.”

Christy Comager was standing in the AutoZone parking lot when the officer pulled Temple over. She told investigators Harrison sprayed Temple two to three times in the face with pepper spray. Comager didn’t say what effect the spray had on Temple.

Harrison said that after he used the pepper spray and called for backup on his radio, Temple punched him in the jaw. All of about a dozen witnesses interviewed in the report said Temple was getting the best of Harrison in the fight and that they heard the officer yelling for help.

Marie McWright told investigators she was in her truck at the intersection of Greenwell Springs and Joor roads when she saw Temple punching Harrison in the face. McWright said Harrison fell and Temple landed on top of him. Shortly afterward, she heard gunshots.

Harrison told investigators that before he fell, he felt he “needed to do something to get Temple off of him or he would be hurt really bad or killed.”

As he was falling, Harrison drew his .40-caliber service weapon and fired one shot, according to the report. Harrison said that when Temple started to grab for his weapon, he fired two more shots along the ground in an attempt to unload his gun so Temple couldn’t use it on him.

Stephens told investigators he was about to leave the AutoZone parking lot in his pickup when he saw Harrison and Temple fighting. Harrison yelled for help.

Stephens said he grabbed his gun, got out of the truck and heard two gunshots ring out from beneath the pair, who were on the ground. Harrison again called out for help. Stephens said he fired his weapon at Temple from about 7 or 8 feet away.

The Advocate’s attempts to reach Stephens for comment were unsuccessful.

Temple family responds
In an interview Wednesday with The Advocate, Temple’s mother said that over the open cell phone line, she heard the shots that killed her son. She said Temple did not speak to her.

“It was the worst phone call I have ever gotten,” Sharalean Temple said.

Temple’s parents said they heard from the lead detective only once — an hour before the Sheriff’s Office announced the investigation was complete.

“We were shocked,” said Temple’s father, 54-year-old George Temple. “And no one was arrested. That man, Mr. Stephens, saw two people tussling. He didn’t know who was right and who was wrong. He could have hit George across the head, but instead he unloaded his gun.”

The Temples said they fear the truth may never come out.

“If George was such a bad guy, why did he call home?” George Temple asked. “And secondly, if he was so bad, why didn’t he reach for the gun he had in his car? The bottom line is this: There are still a lot of holes in this story.”

The U.S. Justice Department is looking into the shooting to see if Temple’s civil rights were violated. And Temple’s parents could still file a lawsuit over their son’s death.

“We are not ready to make a comment on that right now,” Sharalean Temple said.
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