[JR47]

Baloney. Most russian made mak ammo is much hotter than domestic stuff. There are plenty of people using it and I have yet to HEAR a story of a mak failing. Probably has happened, but its of such a small occurrence as to be a statistical zero. The hi-point on the other hand has both its proponents and its detractors. There are enough people who have had problems with it to justify skepticism.

From Shotgun News, Vol. 60, issue 22.

"In 1993, a modernized Makarov pistol was introduced, chambered for the 57-N-181M 9x18 round, which is a high-velocity, high-penetration version of the original. Several new submachineguns have been chambered for this new round. In terms of wound ballistics, this new cartridge is equivalent to the 9x19 Parabellum round. Externally identical to the original 9x18 Makarov, it can be distinguished by its conically shaped projectile, which has been designed to penetrate soft body armor and mild steel plate. IT CANNOT BE SAFELY FIRED IN OLDER MAKAROV PISTOLS."

The vast majority of 9x18 ammunition in the USA comes from Europe, and is loaded to less than 1000 fps in the original loadings (Shotgun News Vol.60, Issue 22) Your comment about "domestic stuff", even if true, is useless.

How so. Are you telling me that you are going to get as much for a used hi-point as you are for a used 1911 or mak? I don't think so. How many people are out there knocking down doors for a used hi-point. Probably next to none since they are so cheap to start with. Even percentage wise you will see a higher return on buying a quality pistol. Thats just the way the market works.

Percentage wise, you will probably get more from the High Point than another, non-collectible, weapon. After all, you only paid $125.00 or so. Selling it for $75.00 is a lot better return than selling a $600 pistol for $400. I don't know how many people are out there looking for a used High Point, but, neither do you. Try not to interject wild speculation into statements that purport to be true.

Based on what, because you say so? I'll grant you that its not a widely carried round here, but there are plenty of ballistics gel tests, that show the round to be perfectly adequate for self defense. Its going to make a bigger hole than both a .380 and a 9x19 and is a good penetrator. It won't blow an attacker across a room but neither will any common pistol caliber.

Ok ,based on WHAT ballistic gel tests? Because you say so?

Alright. Here you go. http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot26.htm
Most people here would consider .38 special +P JHP to be a perfectly adequate defensive round. Well it was out penetrated by the 9mak, and it makes a bigger hole. All this with regular ammo. The hotter stuff gets better.

I was actually looking for some results from testing that the Soviets did, before changing over to the 9x19. The boxotruth is an admittedly unscientific test. They make no claims as to equivalency with accepted standards. They also quote the following:

2. The only rounds that reached the necessary penetration were the .32 ACP, the .380 ACP, the Mak with Ball and the .38 Special. Quite honestly, they did better than I would have guessed.

So, according to you, then the .32 ACP and .380 ACP and the 9x18 would all be the same? After all, they passed the same test.

As for my opinion that the hi-point is nothing more than a range/truck gun, well yes that is my opinion.

Mine, too. Let's see, that's a change from your previous line of thought. We were talking about people buying them to practice, and learn, on. The fact that they COULD be used to defend hearth and home seems to be your blind-spot. You can also use a $500 repro single-action black powder weapon to defend yourself adequately. Would I want to, no, but if it's all you have, it will work.

This here is the beef that most people have. I don't buy cheap equipment for ANYTHNG I do be it cars, guns, surfboards, whatever. If you don't get something better than you, you will never get better. If you only buy things for your "conditions" then when the SHTF and things get worse you might be out of luck.

Any high school student working a summer job for minimum wage can afford a solid entry level pistol such as a springfield GI. If 200-300 is too expensive for you then you shouldn't be spending money in the first place.

What I was talking about was that by purchasing an inferior pistol, you limit yourself to only improving as well as the pistol can handle. The amount of improvement one can make on a $100 hi point is alot less than one can make on a $400 1911. Furthermore, once you get better, it will be far easier to sell a better pistol for an upgrade. No one is going to buy a used hi-point.

As I was saying, you'd hardly think that you would want a High Point for a truck/plinker/trainer with those statements, sir. However, as you've finally come down into the real world, let's just let it be. The High Point isn't a Sig, HK, or Colt. It's an entry-level weapon. There's nothing wrong with that. We NEED such weapons to allow the less well-off to get into the sport. Once there, they will be exposed to better weaponry, and will, as their skill levels, and comfort levels increase, move on to such weapons. You know, I could swear that I said this some time ago.