(TX) Pregnant rancher kills illegal immigrant intruder

[Drizzt]

Jan. 18, 2002, 9:52AM

Pregnant rancher kills illegal immigrant intruder
Associated Press

SAN ANTONIO -- An undocumented immigrant looking for something to eat in a stranger's kitchen was shot and killed by a pregnant woman in her Edwards County ranch home, border officials said.

Police believe Gonzalo Lopez Castaneda, 32, and two other immigrants, were looking for food in the woman's kitchen Tuesday when he was shot once in the chest with a hunting rifle.

Lopez had worked on an area ranch and was returning there after going to Mexico for Christmas, Edwards County Sheriff Don Letsinger said.

The ranch where he was killed is about 50 miles from the Texas-Mexico border.

The case will be turned over to the district attorney.

The sheriff and Mexican consular officials said the woman woke from a nap to find two men trying to cut through a window screen and a third, Lopez, standing in her kitchen after apparently kicking in the back door.

San Antonio Attorney J.A. Garcia, who represents the Mexican Consulate, said the two other immigrants told him they overhead Lopez and the woman seconds before the shooting.

"They could hear Lopez telling the woman they were hungry as she became hysterical," Garcia told the San Antonio Express-News for today's editions. "They heard the lone shot and both ran.

"It is an unfortunate incident where another undocumented alien is looking for food and made the mistake of actually breaking into a home."

The two other men were being held as material witnesses in Edwards County Jail.

The shooting, which happened about 80 miles northeast of Del Rio, near Rocksprings, marks the latest casualty in the region plagued by violence involving immigrants and Texans trying to protect their property.

"We are aware there is tension out there," said Dennis Smith, a spokesman for the Border Patrol's Del Rio Sector. "We tell (property owners) not to take the law into their own hands."

At least eight times in the past three years, area residents have shot immigrants. Two have died.

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/metropolitan/1216997

Don't mess with Texas women!!!!! There's an old story about how a husband would have grounds for divorce in most states if his wife took a shot at him. In Texas, if a woman shoots at her husband, he won't need a divorce.

[Bob Locke]

"We are aware there is tension out there," said Dennis Smith, a spokesman for the Border Patrol's Del Rio Sector. "We tell (property owners) not to take the law into their own hands."
She wasn't. Texas law provides for her to act in just the manner she did.

And I find it funny that the Border Patrol agent would lecture someone else about actually abiding by the law... :rolleyes:

[Kharn]

"It is an unfortunate incident where another undocumented alien is looking for food and made the mistake of actually breaking into a home."{San Antonio Attorney J.A. Garcia, who represents the Mexican Consulate}
Should read:
"It is an unfortunate incident where another woman must defend herself against an undocumented alien who is looking for food to stealand made the mistake of actually causing himself to be killed, in self defense, while committing the felony of breaking into a home."

Kharn

[Jeff, CA]

If illegal aliens are now to be referred to as "undocumented immigrants", maybe we should start referring to "illegal weapons" as "undocumented arms".

And why is this any of the Mexican Consulate's business? Maybe to the extent that they can help get the corpse through Mexican customs on its way back, but that's about it, from what I can see.

[CastleBravo]

In Texas the law is on her side. Should be a no-brainer.

[rock_jock]

"We are aware there is tension out there," said Dennis Smith, a spokesman for the Border Patrol's Del Rio Sector. "We tell (property owners) not to take the law into their own hands."
When the U.S. govt starts getting serious about this and treating it like the national security issue it is, then citizens won't be forced to dfend themselves in this way. Illegal immigration is a timebomb waiting to go off. Don't get me wrong, I have worked with illegals, and for the most part they are honest hardworking people looking for a better life. But, their continued migration across our border and into our society is going to cause long-term problems and everyone's good intentions won't help a bit to stop them.

[moa]

Amen to what you wrote, Rock_Jock.

My experience is that most illegals work hard, but I found their work product inferior. In some cases, grossly inferior.

I will not hire them, or a contractor who employs them, if I can avoid it.

In couple instances I find them kind of surly, giving me the bad eye unless I acknowledge their presence with a nod or hello.

As far as I am concerned, they can all be sent packing. They have homelands.

Oh, by the way, I do not think that most people know that something like 25% of our prison population is illegal aliens.

[twoblink]

How did my friend's wife in texas put it? You step into my house, your @ss is grass...

He broke in, 3 men, 1 woman by herself... hmm.. The fact there was only 1 dead instead of 3, they should be thankful. This is an EASY case. I don't know how much more you can define self defense..

[Redlg155]

Oh, by the way, I do not think that most people know that something like 25% of our prison population is illegal aliens.

I'm not sure of the exact number of aliens incarcerated, both illegal and aliens that are here legally but are under deportation proceedings due to a felony, but there is a staggering number of them. In my county many are housed in the county jail and are considered Federal Detainees although they are not formally housed in a federal facility. They are there indefinitely until an Immigration Judge rules on their final disposition and in the case for those who cannot be returned to their homeland due to their home country not accepting them back, they become indefinite detainees for quite some time. They are there even if they have served their original sentence.

Needless to say the Govt is shelling out big dollars to County Jails and Corporations such as CCA to house these "detainees". Then we have many more in State Prisons being housed until they serve their state sentences before being released to County Jails for indenite holds...again..Federal Money at work.

As to the Woman who shot the man in her kitchen? She was well within her rights to do so. Any husband here would support her choice as well as many women. Not only was she protecting herself..but her unborn child. If the BG would have just run away..problem solved, but he didn't and chose to stay. She chose to make his stay a bit more hospitable...Texas Style.:D


Good SHooting
RED

[bullet44]

"And why is this any of the Mexican Consulate's business?"

To Mexico it's big business, the illegal is a
product to gather money for there government in
anyway possible, wages, us government hand outs,
etc. A good guess is the rancher will be sued by
the Mexican government.

The southwest states are in big trouble over this
issue, property lost,devalued,trash(plastic, clothing) dropped over many acres, homes broken
into, fences cut, while property taxes continue
on the rise to provide schools and services for
people who do the damage.

Who is at fault, the Mexican government, our
government and the people who insist on hiring
slave labor.

[gorlitsa]

What would happen if the government made it illegeal to hire anyone who was not a citizen, or who didn't have a work visa (and only gave these to highly educated foriegners for research and things like that). Assume, for a minute, that the America populace actually abided by this law. What would happen to our economy if such a huge portion of the labor force left?

Could it possibly occur that we might start importing even more from Mexico, thus providing more jobs there....

[Dangus]

I am suprised nobody has mentioned this....

Who says they were just looking for food?! THE OTHER TWO INTRUDERS

While in the house:
"Hey seniora, after we rape you we are gonna grab a bite to eat is that ok?"

While in custody:
"OMG this woman just went crazy on us. We were just trying to get food and she got all hysterical and began to murder us"

[WilderBill]

I find it interesting that people who are understandably fleeing a corrupt, illiterate, impoverished land to look for a better life seem to want to bring all the worst parts of their culture with them.

Homesick?

[WYO]

If it had been "illegal immigrant rancher kills pregnant intruder," would it still be OK? I don't know if the qualifiers make that much difference to the analysis.

[4V50 Gary]

Perhaps they immigrants should learn to ask: "May I please have something to eat?" If they've got ducats, they could add: "I'll be happy to pay for it." That would work a lot better than kicking in a door. At least the likelihood of being shot is a lot less.

[Jim V]

Did not the now defunk illegal kick in the door while the other two were busy cutting a screen in an attempt to gain entry? And who's word is it they were seeking food? The surviving illegals, as if they would not have a reason to lie about what they intended to do?

"Hey, Amigo, you picked the wrong ranch, this time."


I have a question or two; why in the name of all that's Holy and half that ain't, do we care if the feelings of illegal aliens are hurt by calling them that? Why the "undocumented immigrants" crap? And why doesn't the US government tell the Mexican government to pi>> off when they complain about their citizens getting shot while committing a felony?

[KSFreeman]

Gun shop commando talk aside, someone gunned down another human being begging for food. If you use a firearm, you lose something, every time.

We'll see what the District Attorney does with it. If she's lucky, she'll only be sued into bankruptcy.

[Bud Helms]

I guess that's the problem, KSFreeman. The evidence we have here doesn't support "begging" for food. It sounds like they were breaking and entering. A normal person's reaction to a request for food is not a hail of lead.

[Kaylee]

Gun shop commando talk aside, someone gunned down another human being begging for food.

No.. a pregnant woman shot one of three strange men BREAKING INTO HER HOME. Easy case. The other two are lucky to be alive... not sure if the rest of the world is though. That's not "gunshop commando" talk, that's just simple self-defense and defense of one's home.

You want to ask me for food, knock on my door and ask politely. Odds are pretty good I'll have something for you, and a little extra to take on your way. Try to kick down my door and you WILL be carried out under a sheet.

-K

[inGobwetrust]

If she were my wife, I would be extremely grateful that she was safe and very proud of her for defending herself as well as my unborn child. Thank God that she had access to a firearm to defend herself with. If the supposedly "'enlightened" members of our society had their way, this innocent woman and her child would probably be dead right now.

People who are just looking for food don't kick in doors before knocking. All they had to do was go to the nearest church and they probably could have gotten a meal. If the DA doesn't take her word over the word of two non-citizens that were in the commision of a crime then we are all in big trouble.

[KP95DAO]

Well. a few thoughts.

In Oklahoma we have a "Make my day" law. This law prohibits taking to court, civily, anyone found to have justly defended their home with a firearm. I don't know if Texas has that provision. Ours was modeled after Colorado's "Mafe my Day" law.

There are a lot of Mexican citizens in our Federal prisons. They account for much of the trouble we have there.

What is the solution? I would give mine; but, I would just be accused of being a "Gun Shop Commando."

[KSFreeman]

Breaking into her home???:eek: How do we know that? Doesn't that just come from the shooter or do we have independent witnesses?

My point being is that any time you shoot you risk criminal prosecution and a civil lawsuit. That's exactly how the DA may characterize her actions if he prosecutes for manslaughter.

You are not going to get some sort of community service award as they think in the gun shop. We'll see what the District Attorney does and what transpires in civil court.

You can have the most righteous shoot in the world and still get in big trouble. Don't forget Problem #2 (in all it's forms) is always lurking.

[LawDog]

Breaking into her home???

From the article:
The sheriff and Mexican consular officials said the woman woke from a nap to find two men trying to cut through a window screen and a third, Lopez, standing in her kitchen after apparently kicking in the back door.

I don't know about your neck of the woods, but kicking in a door and cutting through a window screen counts as breaking in around most parts.

Doesn't that just come from the shooter or do we have independent witnesses?

It apparently comes from the Mexican Consulate:

The sheriff and Mexican consular officials said the woman woke from a nap to find two men trying to cut through a window screen and a third, Lopez, standing in her kitchen after apparently kicking in the back door.

LawDog

[Tamara]

Here is how you "beg for food":

*knock*knock*
"Hello?"
"Senora, may we please have some food. We are very hungry. We'll be happy to mow the lawn/wash the windows/take out the trash in exchange for a sandwich".

Here is how you get shot:

Kick in my door and get caught by me, home alone w/no backup, rifling through my kitchen. According to the law of the land, you are bought and paid for. I am not going to wait around to see if you can grab a knife and demonstrate the Tueller drill to me; I am going to shoot.



Love and Kisses,

The Gunshop Commandette.

[KSFreeman]

Which law allows the use of deadly force on unarmed human beings who are standing around? "Make my day" (a term coined by the other side) law does not equate to free-fire zone. And the guy rifling through my kitchen is . . . the gas meter reader looking for a screwdriver, the 15 year old neighbor's daughter looking for the bottle opener on her diet Coke, the drunken neighbor across the street who lost his key.

And the prosecutor sez to the jury "she shot an unarmed man in cold blood. In fact, as the state introduced into evidence, we have proof of her malice aforethought in the form of gun shop (oh, the children) communiques."

Even if it is a BG and a righteous shoot, it's still the DA's call. "Well, the cops would be on my side." Maybe, but not their call. "No jury would convict me here in the state of X." Wanna bet? "The community would build me a monument." Nope.

Your problems are not over after you shoot, they only begin. We will see what problems arise for her. I pray there are none, but be advised they do lurk.

[Marko Kloos]

Which law allows the use of deadly force on unarmed human beings who are standing around?

He wasn't "standing around". He was in the kitchen of a house he'd just broken into by kicking in a door. He was facing an armed homeowner which he probably outweighed, and he did not leave when asked by a woman pointing a rifle at him. What did he have to do in order to present a threat to her? If I stand in your kitchen after kicking in your door, and I refuse your request to leave the house with you pointing your gun at me, would you assume I was harmless? Do I have to grab the kitchen knife off the counter before you consider me a threat?

Maybe he made a move towards her, or tried to grab the rifle, or a knife off the counter....I don't think she shot him in cold blood because she felt like she could get away with it. She was alone, pregnant, and facing several males who had just forcibly entered her house. I don't care if they were wearing Girl Scout uniforms...you don't break into a house and refuse to leave when asked at gunpoint. How far do you have to retreat, and how far can an intruder go, before you can defend yourself?

Most sane people draw the line at the doorstep. You violate someone's home, hostile intent is assumed. These were not kids looking for keys, these were three grown men who kicked down her kitchen door.

[Tamara]

...do things differently in Indiana, but around here meter readers rarely kick in doors. ;)

I know what my neighbors look like; credit me with a little judgement.




PS: You seem to be taking the "you'll get sued!" angle to the level of reductio ad absurdum here. Perhaps if you'd just 86 your firearms altogether, you'd really cut down on the likelihood of a bad shoot. ;)

[buzz_knox]

Let's see, how would a DA see this:

1. you have three intruders attempting to make a home invasion on a residence on multiple points of attack

2. there is a pregnant woman (insert image of Madonna here) inside asleep.

3. woman awakens to find two intruders coming through one avenue of attack while third intruder is already inside

4. Texas state law allows for use of deadly force to prevent a felony

5. home invasion/burglary of a residence is a felony in nearly every state, including Texas

6. the law does NOT require you to determine an intruder's intent. It is presumed that if you break into a residence, you intend to do the occupants harm.

7. she has a clearly identified target and uses that force which a reasonable person would deem necessary and prudent to eliminate a threat to herself and her unborn child.

8. if charges are pressed, my career goes out the window.

Result: no charges.

Let's focus on the most important aspects of this case: she used the right tool and achieved a perfect "one shot, one kill." You go, girl!

[MeekAndMild]

Freeman, I'll try to do this without any ad hominum insults toward the anti RKBA civil rights crowd. I ain't a lawyer but I've been on a murder jury in a state far more anti than Texas so I am aware of how DAs stretch the truth to fit themselves. All that said, plus the fact that I have no assumption the legal explanation I'm posting (http://tkdtutor.com/07-Self%20Defense/Laws.htm) might have any basis whatsoever in actual law and it is posted only to illustrate the sort of common opinions floating around the net and I'll make my unlearned opinion.

There ain't no Texas jury gonna hang that momma. There ain't no Texas jury gonna give that riff raff a dime. Dey was gonna snack on a lot more than just food and she shoulda killed 'em all. Twice. :p

[KSFreeman]

I pray you're right M&M about any potential RoT jury; however, those dern lawyers and litigation costs plenty o' denek. Besides, not everyone lives in Tejas (but most want to).

I'm not saying put her in the dock, just that potential problem exists. If a shot is fired or a firearm is pointed, heap big problems (a little Tejas lingo).

Gotta watch those prosecutors; especially the former kind.

[USGuns]

"It is an unfortunate incident where another undocumented alien is looking for food and made the mistake of actually breaking into a home."

The wording of this sentence by the Mexican Consulate attorney says it all. -- Oooops, I accidentally entered the US illegally, then I accidentally kicked in someone's back door and am stealing their food ......... and if he'd had the chance would he have accidentally killed/raped the woman and stolen something else too??? How would she know???

[Double Naught Spy]

There are several key points to this story that aren't key points. Whether or not the woman was pregnant has nothing to do with the shooting. That she was a woman does not either. Whether or not the man in the kitchen was an illegal alien has nothing to do with the shooting. They may actually be facts, but not relevant. Nothing in Texas law gives you additional rights to defend yourself if you are female, of you are pregnant or if an illegal alien has broken into your house. All that is relevant is that the alien broke in, the rancher was in fear for life as the rancher should have been since there is no reason to believe that somebody breaking into your home is there to be nice to you, and the rancher did what seemed most prudent at the time and was well within Texas' legal rights to do so.

If somebody broke into your house, you gotta figure they can't be trusted. What makes anyone think these guys are telling a truthful story about looking for food? Do you really think they were just standing around in the kitchen to have a nice place to chat? I don't think so. If you broke into a home and had no weapons, what room would you start with? The kitchen where all the knives are. Duh!

Notice nobody talked about them knocking or ringing the bell? Instead, Lopez was kicking in the door. He was literally breaking into the home. If you are in the home, would you not consider that to be a very real threat to your person?

As for maybe shooting the guy in cold blood, not a chance! Simply stated, by being in the rancher's home illegally, the intruder is considered a threat. The intruder does not have to have a weapon to be considered a threat upon which lethal force may be used in one's home.

And yes, for all you "I'm so afraid of civil lawsuits" folks out there, she may have invited herself into a civil suit, but by golly she is going to be alive to be at that suit!

Maybe the men would have left with just a threat. Maybe not. There were at least three of them and one of her.

We know that from the decision she made, she is still alive. We have no way to know if she would have acted differently if she would still be alive or not. One thing is certain, she took unequivocal control of the situation and had the events play out on HER terms and not the terms of the intruders.

[CastleBravo]

Which law allows the use of deadly force on unarmed human beings who are standing around?


If they broke into your house, Texas state law. The law is actually very clear on this point. Read it sometime, it is quite enlightening in some respects. :D

This isnt M*******achusetts, people who get shot while breaking and entering get no sympathy and the homeowners don't get prosecuted for it.

And if Texas wasn't the sort of state where they don't care if you shoot intruders into your home, the fact that she is a pregnant woman IS relevant, beccause it speaks to the disparity of force between her and the intruder.

[LawDog]

That she is a woman, and pregnant, are very key points. To the Grand Jury.

http://www.tsha.utexas.edu/handbook/online/articles/view/EE/hce3.html

Edwards County has less than 5,000 people in the whole county, and they're all Texas ranchers. Which means that they're pig-headed, red-necked, independant-minded and chivalrous to the point of chauvanism.

These are the people from which the Grand Jury will be drawn from.

The first time anyone in that jury room uses the words "little", "gal", and "pregnant" in the same sentence, the case is going to be No-Billed, and there's not a blessed thing the DA, or the Mexican Consulate, or the State Department can do about it.

LawDog

[Double Naught Spy]

Lawdog, you are correct in one very important sense and that is that emotions will come into play if this were to go to the grand jury. They just decide whether or not the rancher gets prosecuted and has to go to court. That being said, being a woman and pregnant are not actual legal matters in terms of whether or not deadly force is justified. She was the homeowner and confronted an intruder in the home that had forcibly broken into the home. The last part simply has to do with there being evidence that the guy broke in versus being lured in and shot by the homeowner.

As far as the jury pool, if the case gets that far, sure enough, she won't have any problems, but had the person at home been the husband and the same evidence presented, he would not have much in the way of problems either. If the article is right, this seems fairly clear cut. That same jury would come to the conclusion that the Mexican had no business in the home, period, and that would probbably be inclusive of certain racial overtones as well depending exactly who was on the jury.

As for your description of the people of Edwards County, you forgot other descriptors such as hard working, self made, and have a sense of responsibility as well as clear ideas on what is right and what is wrong as part of remote ranch life. These are people who would drive 100 miles to social dance for the evening and then drive home again.

Somebody breaking into your home is something people out there would have no issue about stating is definitely wrong.

It is beautiful country out there, but pretty much anything alive either bites, stings, pokes, pricks, or smells bad, and people love it.

[Mike in VA]

Home invaders? "Schmoke 'em if you got 'em", they's paid for.

No mention of him being shot in the back, right?

Not like he was trying to leave when confronted, yes?

If they were working at a ranch in the area, why didn't they go there for a bite?

Seems pretty righteous to moi.

[Will Beararms]

KSFreeman:

We are talking Texas here. I live in Texas. I can tell you without flinching that this Lady will be no-billed and never go to court.

Any adult or large adolescent in your house without permission that you do not know is subject to getting their head blown off in Texas. I simply cannot understand how you could refer to someone who kicks in a door as someone just hungry and looking for nourishment.

Keep in mind these guys had been in Texas before and I guarantee you they had been there long enough to know that most Americans are benevolent and will help. I work frequently in Mexico all over the country and I can tell you that they know right from wrong. These guys either didn't care about breaking into the house or they wanted to have a little entertainment after their meal.

In any event, the message is this: if you come to Texas don't break in someone's home.

God Bless Texas. God Bless George Bush.

[Idaho Mike]

Ah, those sweet undocumented, illegal aliens. Marauding their way across the rural Southwest. Stealing food, laundry off outside lines, leaving garden hoses running for spite after getting a drink.

Brings back memories of southern Arizona, where I used to live. It seemed every major wash in Santa Cruz County was filled with those pilgrims. I've seen them move around houses, mobile homes and vehicles, checking every window and door for easy entry.

They roll rocks on the road off the beaten track, and jump whoever is dumb enough to stop their vehicle to move the "obstacle."

And in Nogales, feral kids come right up out of the storm sewer on the American side, steal your McDonald's food right off the table, and pop back in the curb grate - where the bars have been hacksawed away.

And when they get caught - often for committing other crimes besides illegal entry - they clog up the local jail and court system.

Now I'm up to my ass in snow 40 minutes from Canada, but I don't have to think about blowing away some strange bozo looking for a Pepsi and chips in my kitchen .

I don't know anyone here who has been the victim of a burglary or a violent crime. In Arizona, literally everyone had been ripped-off, raped, car-jacked or car stolen, beaten, intimidated by gangs, vandalized, mugged or burglarized. Many had been victims multiple times. Really. I could go on and on with true-life horror stories.

I fear for the future of the American Southwest. The so-called "reconquista" is very real.

It has nothing to do with racism, but a lot to do with the intrusion of a culture of corruption into our nation.

Don't believe me? Try "living" in Douglas, Arizona for a while.

[Fred Hansen]

Gun shop commando talk aside, someone gunned down another human being begging for food. If you use a firearm, you lose something, every time.

I pray you're right M&M about any potential RoT jury; however, those dern lawyers and litigation costs plenty o' denek. Besides, not everyone lives in Tejas (but most want to).

Que?!!! People who are down on their luck and need to beg for food, do so by asking politely at the door while simultaneously offering to do something in return. That way they retain their dignity and recognize and respect the dignity of the person they are begging from. Vermin on the other hand gang up and attack from several sides, then being vermin, they act all innocent when the deal go down.

The victim in this case got to keep her frigging life ! That is worth any price.

Gotta watch those prosecutors; especially the former kind. The only sensible thing you have said. BTW, in civilized states like WA if the Lawyer scum (read that D.A.) put a citizen on trial for what a jury finds to be a "righteous shoot", the state has to pay the defendants expenses. Best of all in every county except the Peoples Republic of King County, that D.A. can fully expect to have his or her A$$ handed to him/her at the next election. See: Washington State Self-Defense Law Title 9A Chapter 9A.16

[KSFreeman]

LawDog, we shall see and, more than likely, you are correct that Hank and Peggy Hill will NB the rancher. Not every state has grand juries. Not every county has a prosecutor who is up for election.

WB, "begging for food" as he was standing in the kitchen--how do you think the prosecutor will phrase inside the grand jury room where he is given great latitude. Even the inside of your house is not a free fire zone.

I pray everything turns out well. Be advised that Problem #2 is always there. We will see what form it takes in the RoT.

The English Rule in Washington as to SD cases? Fantastic, let's hope that it spreads.

[Halo]

So I guess she should've just let them have their way, then she could've been the most morally righteous saint in the whole cemetery.

Nuts to that. The only tragedy in this story is that the other two continue to produce CO2.

[KSFreeman]

Halo, my point is that there will always be consequences to pointing a firearm or shooting a fellow human being. They run a gamut of possibilites. As you are ready and trained for Problem #1, be ready for Problem #2!

[Art Eatman]

KSF, I don't think I've ever heard of a time when a Texas woman was hassled by the law for using her home as a "free fire zone", if there was the slightest, the very slightest, chance it was any sort of "righteous shoot".

I'm talking real world, not perceptions of what the law is or should be. I'm talking about how these deals are handled in real life.

The absolute most dangerous thing for any man is to hassle a woman in her own home. The only defense she needs is, "He scared me! I was scared for my life!"

End of hunt.

Civil suit? Big waste of time.

Art

[Will Beararms]

KS Freeman:

Again, my money says there won't even be a grand jury and if there is what Texas Grand Jury will side against a pregnant Lady napping. I'm sorry. I know the rest of the country has slipped into socialism for all practical purposes but Texas is still for the most part, a free Republic.

Let me be clear here. I am not against those of Hispanic origin as these men account for the minority and a small one at that. These men could have easily been caucasian and I bet if you look at the numbers, there are more caucasians in the Texas Dept, of Corrections for B&E than Hispanics or any other group.

My maternal Grandfather shot two men in his lifetime in self defense-------one with a .41 Magnum and the other with a 12 gauge shotgun (that I know of). He never even went to court. In the South and in Texas, the right of self preservation is still alive provided the evidence is there to support your actions.

There is a message here and all must heed it. That message is: if you come to Texas, don't break into someone's house uninvitied.

[KSFreeman]

WB, I hope your right, but everyone who keeps and readies for the first problem should be ready for the second. Lots of consequences besides grand juries to shooting someone--prison, jail, fines, money for attorneys, litigation expenses, lien on your house, admin suspension of your CHL, depression, family troubles, or sweaty sheets from seeing the 14 year old with a baseball bat, every night.

Well, I'll be back in Tejas in April along with MP Freeman as we practice jumping out of black helicopter with knives in our teeth (either that or we'll just be in skul). We both have no plans on breaking into any houses ("Peggy, get the shotgun there's two strange Hoosiers here."). We rented cabins; I hope we get the right key.:D

[MatthewM]

Tamara, thanks for adding the "mow the lawn", it was sorely lacking from all the posts I agree with.

KS, no matter which way you try and twist the motives, etc they don't change the facts. Whether the DA chooses to prosecute or not has no bearing on whether this mom did the right thing.

Please note that no meter reader would come in without permission to get a screwdriver. Note that it was three men and not a 6 yr old neighbor girl.

Why would anyone try so hard to make this woman out to be a villain?

She won't get a monument? OK, maybe I'll add her to my list of plaques being mailed. Problem is, the cost is mounting!

[KSFreeman]

The way "I" change the motives??? Wow, if you do not know what happens in a grand jury room, I hope you never you never have to find out. This is what COULD happen. Now, what LawDog and the Tejans are saying is more likely correct than not--there will be a NB assuming a grand jury is called. Will may be correct that a grand jury may not be called.

I make no claim about "doing the right thing." Anyone who has taken life may or may not care about what's right vs. what had to be done (or what they thought they had to do).

You don't think accidental/mistaken shootings occur? No one would ever come into your house without written permission? You don't think people are prosecuted for these shootings? Yes, they are.

DAs, CAs, PAs have a variety of motives to villify righteous shoots, but it usually comes down to politics, unless they are not up for election then it's usually hate toward gun owners.

[MatthewM]

KSF, OK, sorry, I thought you were expressing opinion rather than pointing out the obvious that DA's frequently do not consider justice and Right / Wrong.

I get pissed real quick at how DA's just want convictions and max sentences rather than handling each separate case based on the facts. Where I live, no one would ever want to go before a woman from the DA dept. Maybe they are out to prove something, but they are vicious.

Luckilly, if she has to go to court she will face a jury of people who live near her who have maybe heard lots of stories of the invasion and will vote against the prosecutor.

[t-man]

wow,

I guess in my little world, if I break into someones house for a 'sandwich' and I get shot, I left all of my rights on the doorstep.

Not that I advocate it either, but even if I were one of those thugs who feels like it's okay to break into someone's car . . . .and the owner shoots me. . . . well, I guess that I probably shouldn't have been committing the crime.

I get so sick and tired of people who don't want to take responsibility for their actions.

The way not to get shot is DON'T BREAK INTO SOMEONE'S HOUSE!!

I feel better now.

[stuckatwork]

Pay attention to what Idaho Mike said, boys and girls. He hit the nail right on the head. Things down here on the border are bad and getting worse. People are attcked, robbed and killed by these so called "Undocumented Aliens" all the damn time, and NO ONE is trying to help. If an ilegal gets hurt or killed by someone on this side, even while committing a crime the Mexican Councel gets all worked up. The criminals are the victims to the evil Americans. Has the national press even told about the Mexican Army knocking down the border fences around the Douglas area? ANd when confronted by the Border Patrol, opened fire on our people? Did you know that this also happened around El Paso, TX also? Did you know that the Border Partol started carrying M16's because they were out gunned by the poor, hungry pinions while they were smuggling drugs into our country to poison our children? DId you know that there are actually organized bands bandits that come into the US and burglarize, rape and kill people in their homes along the border? The last one was a few months ago, it was a 70+ old woman who was raped to death while her house was ransacked. Nope, it didn't make the national news, hell it didn't even make the regional news. We are being invaded, plain and simple. This will not stop until the the US gubberment tells Mexico to clean up it's own act or we'll stop the welfair checks. Cut off the $$$ and this illegal immigration crap will come to a abrupt end.

FWIW, I am the son of immigrants and damn proud of it. I believe that everyone who wants to come here for a better life, play by the rules and be the best that they can should have an open invitation. But, you can ask a legal Mexican immigrant this if you do not believe me, those illegals are the lower end of the spectrum that the Mexican gubbermint doesn't want in their country. They are dumping their socio-economic trash in our backyards.

The gal in Texas did the right thing. She defender her life. If my wife did the same thing, I would not shed one tear for the guy who broke into my house. It really doesn't matter that the guy was an illegal, he was committing a criminal act and was attempting to commit another, more violent one. I seriously doubt that anything will happen to that lady, nor should it. The BG paid his money and he took his chances. I am just glad it had a happy ending.

I'm rambling, this is one of my hot button topics...

[t-man]

good point, stuckatwork

heck, they ought to reimburse her for her ammo.

[ojibweindian]

Stuck

Had no idea that things on the Mexican border were that bad. Where can I get information to learn more about what's happening there?

[bullet44]

Here is one site that can give you some info.
(http://www.nbpc.net/)

Anytime the topic of immigration/illegal appears
along come the cries of racism, however it is a
subject that needs to be discussed and yes it is
bad along the border through out the southwest, the greatest change has been within the past 10
years.
Homeland security, doesnt that include border
control.?

[stuckatwork]

ojibweindian, et el,

Yep things have gotten that bad along the frontier. The Mexican military and drug runners have fired upon our citizens, Border Patrol Agents and soldiers and it never shows up in the press. The crime gangs run the border. The reality is that the terror happens on both sides of the border. The criminals have the police, Mexican military and politicians in their hip pockets. The real sad thing is that the good people of Mexico are not allowed to own even a shotgun without a permit. So these good folks are sheep for the slaughter. The ability to get a gun permit in Mex is directly proportional to how much money you have to brib the issuing official. No brib, no permit...mucho gracias.

I am very angry at the unwillingness of the press to give the American people the full skinny about what goes on around here. I have heard people say that all this stuff is an exaggeration. Hunters get robbed or worse every year. A good friend of mine was almost killed by drug runners while bow hunting. Thank Gid he was able to bluff his way out of the situation. I have had several such close calls. I'll tell you about one. We were just out of our truck and about to go for a hike in the desert; when a couple of guys came up saying their companion was sick and needed a ride to the hospital. I did note that there was six of them with three wearing backpacks. Real illegals trying to sneak in for work carry their stuff in plastic bags, suitcases, and such. These are the folks that looklike refugees. The ones the idiot press show you pictures of when discussing the "Undocumented Immigrant" problem. Druggies carry their loads in backpacks or sugersacks. The Christain ethic got the better of me. I agreed to take a look at his buddy and if needed drive him to the hospital. As I turned to tell my wife what was up, one of the idiots decided that we didn't speak Spanish. He yelled to his buddies, "Let's fu** him up and get the truck". He turned back to me to stare down the barrel of my 1911. (I think he crapped himself, it sure smelled that way ;)). I backed away and hopped in the truck and took off. We found a DPS cop on the main road, he called it in and took our statements. Never heard anything about it again. This was only one time out of three that I can tell you about.

Oh yeah, before I forget...faking an illness is one of their favorite ways to get your guard down.

Ranchers have the worst time of it. They are generally isolated and alone. They loose cattle to the illegals all the time. The illegals will kill a beefer, take a choice piece of the animal and leave it to rot. One rancher told me that he found a steer calf that was tied down with a big chunk of its hind quarter cut out. The mutants that did this didn't even bother to cut the animal's throat. They cut it while it was still alive. Ray figures they just took what they want and left the calf where it lay. He had to put it out of it's misery, but that animal did suffer.

When the ranchers took up arms to protect their families and livestock, the Klinton Administration started to harass and tried to prosecute them. None of the ranchers lost in court, but what was the cost? These are people that barely make it as it is. Instead of cracking down on the illegals, Klinton had his goons go after the Americans. Cries of "vigilantism, KKK, racism" were rampant in the local press. Yeah, a guy that works twenty hours a day punching cows, squeeking out a living for his family, who takes up arms to defend home and property is a racist??? GIVE ME A BREAK! These guys really don't care what color, or national origin the threat is, all they know is that some people are a threat, period, paragraph.

I guess this is enough. I will end with this, things are happening down here and the press is not letting the people know. The only national news program that addressed this was The Factor. I give Bill O'Reilly credit for taking this on, but with the 9/11 and Afgansitan issue, it has fallen to the way side.

[t-man]

a buddy of mine, when discussing our backpacking trips and the concern of wildlife threats once said "It's those two legged bears that you have to watch out for".

Glad you and your wife are okay.

That incident would have scared the - you know what - out of me - 1911 or no.

t-man

[Art Eatman]

Take what stuckatwork said.

Double it.

It's even worse than that.

Down around Eagle Pass, Texas, the druggies send some lawyer out to a river's edge rancher, and offer him about double what the land is worth. The deal is "Oro o plombo". Gold or lead. Sell or die.

Other ranches, they just make use of the land at night, hauling truckloads of dope away from the river. If the rancher protests, shame on his heirs...Only plombo.

The dopers use night-vision stuff, and have M-16s. They have better electronics gear than the Border Patrol.

But our government does nothing. The reason is, simply, votes. The cry of "racism" goes up in the media when anybody tries to defend themselves, or if laws are enforced. Both political parties avoid alienating any ethnic group of voters. The total number of votes from the people suffering harm is much less than from the urban ethnic groups who believe what's in the media.

Art.

[ahenry]

I can attest to first-hand knowledge of several atrocious acts done by illegals, from killed cattle to cut fences to stolen pets. I know this isn’t an immigration thread and I have no desire to make it one (I will not post in this thread on this point again) but I don’t consider massive increases in Border Patrol agents to be the solution. Claiming that as a solution is akin to saying more police will make one safer. More BP agents might be needed (or more police for a city) but first unshackle the population and remove the government created artificial stimulants to criminal activity, then and only then see if there is still a need for additional BP agents (which come at a high cost, both monetarily and in personal freedom). Not that anyone is saying we need more agents, but that is only a temporary solution to a surface condition. Getting to the root of the problem coupled with an increase in the personal freedom needed in order to defend oneself, will eliminate the problem and it will not cost one additional penny of taxpayer money (in fact it will save money currently being spent on various programs).

[Tamara]

Less spent on welfare makes illegal immigration less enticing; remove massive profit incentive for smugglers, less folks willing to risk life 'n' limb in violent shootouts for chump change.