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View Full Version : URGENTLY Need Inf on Value of M1 Garand


Johnny Guest
November 1, 2001, 11:29 AM
A casual friend, administrative type, came into my office with a Garand, wanting to know value. Has a guy trying to buy it from him. I want to buy it myownself, but probably can't afford it, but still want the man to get a fair price.

Winchester mfg. Serial number 2415XXX--That's two million and some - - -
Excellent parkerized finish. Some pitting visible on receiver and front sight makes me wonder if it is an arsenal refinish.

Chamber area of barrel, visible with op rod locked back, at about 4 o'clock position, is marked SA 10 43--Barrel is two groove. Shiny grooves with a couple of spots which I have no way of checking--no cleaning rod here.

I can't tell if it is a re-weld--the circular tool marks in op rod handle channel on r. side of reciever are visible ALMOST the whole length of channel. Can't tell if the gap is just where the handle has kind of polished them out over the years.

VG--near-excellent-- stock, with a couple of scratches on l. side. Grenade launcher sight base screwed to stock. Stacking swivel bent and could use replacement.

EDIT: Friend bought this rifle from an individual in either 1961 or 62. No importer marks. of course.

Sure would appreciate best estimates or originality and value. I know some other military arms had receivers built by one contractor and other parts by others. Was this the case with Garands from Winchester?

Thanks in advance for earliest replies.

Best,
Johnny

4V50 Gary
November 1, 2001, 11:52 AM
No books in front of me but don't forget that during the war and after any war, firearms were brought in for servicing by unit armorers or at National Armories. Either way, the armorers didn't care about making "matching" guns. Priority was on restoring to combat condition prior to storing away. This resulted in mixed parts on most if not all guns.

The circular marks on the op rod are probably milling marks - especially if they're symmetrical to one another. Of course, one could always weld up and then finish by milling, but original GI op rods weren't scarce back in the '60s and there's no reason to weld one then.

Can't give you a price, but see if there's CMP papers with that gun. This gives you assurances that the gun is not a civilian restoration/rebuild.

Johnny Guest
November 1, 2001, 12:03 PM
TNX for rapid reply.

No, the milling marks I referenced--wrote too quickly for clarity, probably - - -had to do with marks on the receiver itself, the channel on right side in which the op rod handle rides.

Someone had told me years ago that you could detect a re-welded receiver if those miolling marks in that channel were not present - - that two de-militarized (cut with torch) receivers could be cleaned up and welded to make one whole rcvr, but that when the weld wass cleaned up, that the milling marks on the resulting rcvr would not be present.

I think the prospective buyer is trying to give around $700 for this rifle. I'm trying to figure if this is a fair price. I know there are some re-imports for less money, which are essentially original, but kinda beat up.

And I know that put-together, hodge-podge parts guns are worth less than original guns, even in marginal condition.

Best,
Johnny

James K
November 1, 2001, 01:43 PM
The rifle is at least a rebuild, it may or may not be a "reweld" (I prefer the term "cut-and-weld"). If the barrel is really two groove, there is something very wrong.

Take a look at www.fulton-armory.com for a good discussion of the "cut and weld" rifles, and also note the "sleeved" barrel on one.

I think it safe to say that regardless of current condition, no M1 produced in war time survived in anything like excellent condition.

I have seen rebuilt M1's go for less, but avoid those on the market with "new receivers"; you can check those out on the Fulton Armory site as well. If you can, also check out www.odcmp.com for M1 sales by the government. I think M1's back from Denmark are going for only about $400, and they are entirely serviceable.

Jim

johnwill
November 1, 2001, 05:59 PM
I think I'd proceed very carefully until I was 100% sure that isn't a "cut-n-weld" receiver, that would certainly make that gun over-priced! I agree with Jim's suggestion to check into the CMP, I have three of their Garands, and I was only somewhat disappointed in one of them, one I ordered without wood. Although they said they were just like the ones with wood in condition, I didn't find that to be the case. I ended up putting a replacement barrel on that one to make it a decent shooter...

Johnny Guest
November 1, 2001, 11:48 PM
Jim Keenan wrote - - -
If the barrel is really two groove, there is something very wrong.

Take a look at www.fulton-armory.com for a good discussion of the "cut and weld" rifles, and also note the "sleeved" barrel on one.

I think it safe to say that regardless of current condition, no M1 produced in war time survived in anything like excellent condition.

Do I take it to mean that no proper M1s were produced with two-groove barrels, Jim?

I must respectfully disagree with the latter, though--Of over 4 million produced, can we not suppose that many thousands were never shipped out of the USA, or were never issued, or issued only to troops on garrison duty?

Anyhow - - -
Supposing this is indeed a depot-level rebuild, or perhaps arsenal level. (I tend toward the latter opinion, due to the excellent parkerized finish, in spite of the minor pitting--) What would be a fair market value on it? I'm getting the idea I need to revise my thoughts downward.

Again, appreciate the assistance.

Johnny

Lionheart
November 2, 2001, 09:57 AM
Johnny,

I bought a Garand a couple of months ago through the CMP (link is below).

They have standard grades (rebuilt, mixed numbers) for just under $500 plus $20 shipping and handling and collector grades for just under $1,000 plus s&h.

I bought a standard grade. The stocks are a bit dinged from rough handling, but the metal and head space were fine, and you can find replacement "wood" if you want to. CMP checks them out and there's more info at the website.

http://www.odcmp.com/Services/Rifles/index.htm

Two stores in NJ usually have some Garand's on hand. Sarco in Stirling and Ray's in North Plainfield. Sarco has a website www.sarcoinc.com, but I don't believe Ray's does. Sarco is also a big advertiser in shotgun news.

The nice thing about CMP though is that they check out the Garands pretty carefully for wear and head spacing and will ship right to your door.


The Garand is a sweet old gun to fire.

BADSBSNF81
November 2, 2001, 07:40 PM
Here are two places with good M1/M1A info boards. gunandkinfe.com and jouster.com

James K
November 2, 2001, 10:22 PM
No M1 rifles were produced with two groove barrels.

Some very late M1s did not make it into combat in WWII, but most of those went to battle in Korea. A rifle made in 1943, when the war was still very much in doubt, would have gone to the front. Even if it was used in training, those rifles took about as much of a beating as combat rifles and were certainly fired a lot more.

If it is not a cut-and-weld it would probably bring about $600-700 on the gun show circuit in this area. If the buyer knows it is a c&w, you might get $400.

Jim

Johnny Guest
November 2, 2001, 10:55 PM
The more I read, the more puzzled I became. I, too, can find NO reference to two-groove Garand barrels.

So I went to HIS office this morning and re-inspected the rifle. It DOES HAVE a two-groove barrel. The only thing that occurs to me is that perhaps a previous owner came into possession of an arsenal re-worked rifle (the really nice Parkerized finish over a somewhat pitted receiver and a near-new stock with no cartouches on it) and either he or a still -earlier owner had ruined the barrel with corrosive ammo. In the fifties and early sixties, perhaps M1 barrels were unavailable on civilian market--or at least to that owner. It might possibly be that he had the Springfield Armory barrel bored out, and a two-groove 1903-A3 barrel turned down to sleeve the M1 barrel. If this is the case, though, I cannot see the join of the sleeve and the outer barrel.

I dunno. One of life's little mysteries, I guess. Anyway, the urgency of my request has now passed. I gave the owner best estimate for value of a re-worked rifle and he seemed happy with that.

I thank all for your replies.

Best regards,
Johnny

4V50 Gary
November 3, 2001, 01:43 PM
Pull the op rod back and write down the markings on the barrel. That'll be a clue as to whether it's an original Garand barrel or not.

For instance, a Springfield Armory bbl may be marked S-A-6-42 or S-A-12-41 (these may even be marked upside down) and sometimes there is a number which prefixes the "S-A". Winchester bbls may have the Winchester proof stamp, D35448W.R.A., marked on it (or something similar).

Johnny Guest
November 3, 2001, 05:21 PM
Gary - - -
Right--Barrel marking is as mentioned:
S-A-10-43
Which would fit in with an arsenal rework with barrel replacement. But markings on outer surface wouldn't preclude the idea that someone bored out such a barrel and re-lined with a turned-down-on-a-lathe 03A3 Spfld barrel.

Of course, I guess it COULD have been an experimental 2-grove produced at Spfld Armry in a quest to speed production by use of the 03A3 rifling tools, once one or more of the 03A3 contracts was fulfilled.
There were so many strange variations of all kindsa gear, not just weapons, during WW-II, that probably no one will ever compile all of them.

Anyone interested in being the owner of such a HOT DOG! experimental rifle is invited to express itnerest. I'll broker the deal over in TFL Gun Show area. Bidding starts at, oh, say, three grand? Yeah, that's a nice, round, figure. ;)

Best to all - - -
Johnny

Johnny Guest
November 3, 2001, 05:55 PM
I just managed to navigate my way around the site you referenced,
www.fulton-armory.com
and, after doing a search, found the reference to the lined barrel--Just did this a few minutes ago.

Apparently my deduction was correct--at least in line with that on the Fulton site. There was also some information about detection of cut-and-weld receivers I lhadn't read, stuff that would allow detection without magnafluxing and so forth. I realize that this is really an effort of years (or at least months) of study and checking references, and I just don't have the motivation to do all that. But I AM curious.

I'm gonna see if the owner will let me tear down his rifle, just for my own edification. I don't want him to think that I'm trying to mess up his deal, but he really didn't seem too anxious to sell it anyhow.

And, Jim - - -
I knew you are a knowledgable person--I was unaware you were a contributor to the Fulton database.

Thanks again - - -
Johnny

clem
November 4, 2001, 01:04 PM
Maybe the rifle or barrel was a special test version? We are talking 1943 and "things" were still if"ie for the Allies, right? So I would expect a lot of experimenting going on and other things.
Maybe this rifle is a very rare example? It would be so cool to own a "one of a kind".

Clem
USMC Retired

Johnny Guest
November 4, 2001, 05:34 PM
- - - - And I considered it carefully. The other explanations seem more likely, though.

My verdict: Maybe - - - - - - But I flipping doubt it.
;)

Best,
Johnny