View Full Version : Entry level Class III gun?

June 29, 2001, 11:40 AM
Thinking about applying for my C&R. Here in MO I can then own a full auto. I'm leaning to an M3 or a Sten. I have a friend who's recommending a Reising. but I'm shying away from the cost of magazines.


Rex Feral
June 29, 2001, 04:05 PM
IMHO, The M3 is a better quality weapon (particularly the M3A1), but it is plagued by poorly designed single column feed magazines that lead to occasional stoppages, and does have a very slow rate of fire (450-500rpm) that some find objectionable, I rather like it.

The STEN is crudely built but quite reliable with good magazines. STEN magazines are well designed, using a double column feed, but the quality of construction varies widely. Figure on buying twice as many mags as you need to get enough good ones. If you have a stoppage when firing the weapon, mark the mag and put it in a questionable pile, if you get 2 stoppages with the same magazine, throw it out (they are so cheap I consider them disposable), or mark it for range use only.

June 29, 2001, 04:45 PM
Go with the Sten. There are massive amounts of mags available for it. And I would think that any gunsmith should be able to work on Sten mags. I know that Oly Arms uses converted Sten mags for it's pistol caliber uppers, and I wouldn't think that they'd just throw away mags that don't work good, so there must be a way to fix em'.

June 29, 2001, 08:37 PM
Unfortunately despite it's simplicity the M3/M3A1 is not an entry level gun due to its rarity. Transferables are 5K plus.

I think a Sten is nice and you can find a tube gun if a non C&R is OK.

The Reising is iffy in that some are great and some aren't and magazines are pricy.


June 29, 2001, 09:36 PM
Entry level class 3?

How about a Browning .50 M2HB? :D

I love that gun!!!

A Reisling? Do you mean a WWII era "Stand on the Sling and Hope it Fires" Reisling? Never shot one, but found it referred to that way in history on the subject.

If you've shot an M-16 (or just about any modern full auto) you'll find the Grease Gun.... Weird. It feels like it's just sloooowly spitting out bullets. Like it's lazy or something. For fun, maybe, but I would find a lot of other pieces superior for serious use. But if it tickles your fancy, go have fun!

June 29, 2001, 11:00 PM
My dad told me the Reising was no good. They had them on the police department where he worked.

July 1, 2001, 05:44 AM
Both the STen and the M3 use single-position-feed magazines. The weak point of the STen was always its magazine (remedied in spades with the Sterling). But you can buy at least two STens for the price of one M3.

Reisings did not fare well in combat conditions, but that's not really relevant for the recreational shooter; the ones I've shot ran fine. Magazines are hard to find and expensive, though.
The Madsen M50 is a nice gun, certainly worth considering at around $3K. For around $5k, the West Hurley M1 Thompsons are all C&R guns, too.

Rex Feral
July 1, 2001, 08:59 AM
Oops... Byron's got it right, the STEN is a single column feed mag! :o

I've fired several mags through a STEN, but never examined them closely, or loaded one myself. STEN mags can be used in the Sterling (which IS double column), so I assumed they were double column as well. I guess what they say about "ASSUME" is true! :(

July 5, 2001, 10:57 PM
Just thought I would point out to everyone that you need a C&R in Missouri to own class III but you are not limited to C&R class III firearms.

It is the peculiar way that the Missouri law is written. Essentially it says you can own a transferable class III, as an individual, if you have an FFL license. The C&R qualifies as an FFL license to meet the state law requirements.

Therefore, for the poster, ANY transferable is fair game.

Noting that, I would suggest a MAC. Cheap, reliable, and tons of new parts coming out for them. For $1000 you can get a nice one.

July 6, 2001, 08:19 PM
thanks for the tip, Willy. Yer a stud.

The Rock
July 7, 2001, 11:01 AM
Entry Level?

M11/9 (CKA the mac10)
Vector Uzi

The M11/9s are about 900FRN to 1400FRN depending on manufacturer, accessories, it's status (NIB, Used, etc), and a couple other factors.

The Vectors are good guns and have a lot of positives. One of the nice things: Caliber conversions! Shoot 9mm, .45ACP and .22LR in them. Bad side? They are 2.5 to 3x more expensive at ~2900FRN to 3300FRN and sometimes up. Your best be for these is to have your FFL/SOT buy 3. He should get a price about 2500FRN. (At least that was true when I checked last time I called Vector in March. (I think?? I'm foggy on the timeframe...)

The Mac you get is that caliber for its entire life.

Anyway, just my thoughts.


July 7, 2001, 12:33 PM
Hey rock....An M-11 is not a M.A.C. model 10,it's a COBRAY a cut down mass produced COPY!!A M.A.C.10 is caliber convertable but...DanWesson445 is talkin C&R guns here.Aren't C&R machineguns REAL expensive cuz everyone wants 'em??

July 7, 2001, 11:24 PM
If you are not limited to guns on the ATF's C&R list, then a Mac10 or variant would probably be the least expensive entry and they are alot of fun.

Not to beat the Sten mag thing to death...but Sten mags are double column/single feed as opposed to double column/double feed like the Sterling.

Stens are super simple and fun and "tube guns" can be had at entry level prices- $1500-$2000+. Plus they are cool from a historical standpoint if you are into that sort of thing.

If you were limited to C&R guns, the the Reising is probably the least expensive option. Not a bad gun at all when kept clean. But mags will run you $100 or so.

Also look at S&W model 76 or Swedish K's. Last time I priced them, Swed K tube guns were going for about $4500. Lots of folks feel this is the best shooting subgun period.

Get yourself a subscription to Small Arms Review and order some of the back issues dealing with the guns you are interested in.

My 2 cents, hope it helps:)

July 8, 2001, 03:42 AM
Call me crazy if you want, but I think that the Federal law would have precedent if you were to purchase a Class III firearm that wasn't onthe C&R list. Unless you have the actual Class III license, I do not believe it would be legal for you to own a Mac, Uzi whatever. My thinking is if it is full auto, you don't have a Class III, and it isn't a C&R; you are up -CENSORED--CENSORED--CENSORED--CENSORED--CENSORED- creek when the BATF comes a knocking. My advice, call your lawyer. Hope this helps!!!

The Rock
July 8, 2001, 08:48 AM
I know that the Military Armament Corporation 10 is different, but most folks think that the Mac10 is a M11/9 is a M10/45 is a MAC-10 is a, well, you get the idea. ;)

Class 3/Title II firearms are legal to own, with the correct taxes paid, if they are allowed in your state. Here in VA, they are with no special licenses required, you just have to do 2 things:

1. Have the Firearm transfered to you on ATF Form 4 and pay the tax.
2. Register said firearm with the State Police. (This is cause of a law passed before the NFA! Thank you NRA!)

Once that is done, you are cool.


July 8, 2001, 12:34 PM
Ok Rock...I get your drift a MAC is a MAC is a MAC Like VOLVO BOXY IS GOOD!!Why do you have to tell your state POPO about your C3 guns??Is it a state law where you're from??My Sherriff signed my form 4 but the city or state police don't know 'bout it.

David Park
July 9, 2001, 02:38 PM
MACMAN10, yes it's a state law, Code of VA Section 18.2-295. Registration of machine guns. You have to keep the certificate of registration with the machine gun at all times, and if you fail to produce it when the police ask, it's a Class 3 misdemeanor and they can seize the gun.

I'm new to shooting, and I was surprised to see several machine guns in the local gun shop, so I've been reading up on the law. I didn't ask about the prices, though. :)

George Hill
July 9, 2001, 08:49 PM
I've been thinking about getting a class 3 myself... I am almost at the point where my finances will be fluid again and I can invest in guns...

1. Mini Uzi.
2. Sterling.
3. Berretta Model 12.

July 9, 2001, 09:49 PM
No flame intended, but you need to do a little more research. You don't have a real good understanding of the requirements to own a full auto weapon.

Not to wade in to the MAC discussion too deep (because I don't know much about the difference), but a buddy of mine has a caliber convertible MAC or M-something. It has two uppers. One for 9mm and one for .45. I think the company that put it togther was "Tactical Innovations". I believe it was $1200-$1300. Its really nice.

If the Vector UZI can be set up for .22LR, that would be a really cool sub-subgun.

July 9, 2001, 10:25 PM
I've seen some S&W pretty cheap- under 2K.

How much do M2 carbines run? I'd love to get one, then I'd have a cousin to my M1 Carbine...

4V50 Gary
July 12, 2001, 05:27 PM
For full auto fun and inexpensive magazines, the Sten is pretty hard to beat. The cost of ammunition (always an issue with full auto) is relatively cheap when compared to a 45. If you go this route, join a WW II reenactment group which is 501(c)(3). Any money spent (including a commando uniform) will be tax deductible. Why not write off your hobby?

July 12, 2001, 06:52 PM
4V50 Gary,

I don't think that you are quite correct on this.

If the re-enactor group is a 501(c)(3) organization (basically a charitale organization, but also includes some others), then the income of the organization is not taxable. Deductibilty of money spent by participants in the organization will be covered by the rules governing charitable contributions.

Donations to qualified charitable organizations are deductible. The money spent by an individual to participate in that organization is not deductible (with certain exceptions).

For example: contributions to your church are deductible, buying a new suit and tie to wear to church is not deductible.