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Drizzt
June 12, 2001, 10:36 PM
Militias losing ground

FELISA CARDONA

The Southern California High Desert Militia operates like an armed troop of grown-up Boy Scouts rather than a paranoid fringe group with allegiance to the far-right ideology of Timothy McVeigh.

Members of the militia, which includes San Bernardino County residents, are quick to denounce McVeigh and what he did on April 19, 1995, when he bombed the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City and left 168 people dead and more than 500 injured.

''We're not just a small bunch of knuckleheads running around with guns,'' said Tony Hograve, 27, a member who lives in the High Desert.

''It's God, mom and apple pie. We are middle America. We are what you think of when you think of an American. We are your next-door neighbor.''

As McVeigh's execution nears, membership of militias nationwide has sharply declined because people don't want to be associated with McVeigh and the bombing that has been called the most heinous terrorist act to occur on U.S. soil.

''The bombing had a chilling effect on the movement,'' said Joe Roy, director of the Intelligence Project at the Southern Poverty Law Center in Montgomery, Ala.

Roy monitors the activities of militias nationwide, including the Southern California High Desert Militia, to help law enforcement and civil rights organizations stay advised of any danger the militias might pose to society.

Most militia members are against McVeigh's decision to bomb the federal building.

''Except for the ultra-ultra right,'' Roy said. ''There are a small number who talk about Tim McVeigh as a hero or they will say, 'Well we don't condone what he did but we can understand why he did it.'''

The Intelligence Project tracked 194 ''patriot'' groups in 2000, a 9 percent drop from the year before and the fourth consecutive decline since the militia movement peaked with 858 groups in 1996. While the Oklahoma City bombing and the McVeigh trial caused people to leave the movement, others walked away from militias when their members began going to jails and prison for anti-government crimes involving gun violations and terrorist plots.

''Although you can't paint all these organizations with just one stroke of the brush, they all share McVeigh's ideals except the fact that they are not going to blow everyone up,'' Roy said.

Hograve said he was sickened by what McVeigh did when he killed children at the day-care center inside the Murrah building.

''My personal opinion is that he should be hung by his testicles in the desert sun and left to dry up like a raisin,'' he said.

''He should die a very slow and painful death. There was a 4-year-old child who had his abdomen ripped out in the blast. McVeigh should suffer the same thing.''

Hograve doesn't like being associated with McVeigh and has at times turned people away from joining the militia who appear to have the views that McVeigh believes in. Some members of the militia agreed to be interviewed for this story but wouldn't give their names. Hograve wouldn't say what city he lives in.

''There's a lot of people who are concerned,'' he said.

''Here in Southern California, a lot of people don't want to be associated because of what their neighbors might think. There were a lot of groups that simply went underground. There are people out there who don't publicize what they are doing.''

The Southern California High Desert Militia has taken a different route by publicizing their group on the Internet and has recruited members that way.

''If they have any felonies they are precluded from the group. We don't want anyone with a pipe-bomb mentality,'' Hograve said.

The oldest member of the Southern California High Desert Militia is 59 and the youngest is 26. The militia began as a survivalist group preparing for what Y2K could bring, but when nothing happened on Jan. 1, 2000, the group changed its focus from survivalism to patriotism.

''We have everything from plumbers to computer programmers and small-business owners,'' Hograve said. ''We have a good cross-section of educational and cultural backgrounds.''

Twenty percent of the group is Jewish and some are Latino, he said.

But Roy said militias are usually made up of angry, frustrated white men trying to regain control of their lives and looking for someone to blame for their own failures. Much of their feelings toward the government are baseless, he said.

''It's reminiscent of the era of Communism and Joe McCarthy. They are going after a big faceless, nameless monster and enemy. It's usually against the government or some sort of global conspiracy.''

Hograve, a veteran of the conflict in Somalia, says he's not against the U.S. government. He just wants the laws of the nation to comply with the Constitution.

''I am anti-tyranny and anti-socialist,'' he said. ''The Constitution is not always followed. Sometimes it's because of a well-intentioned politician, but other times it's not followed because of someone who hates freedom.''

Hograve and his comrades meet every month or so in the High Desert for field training exercises that sometimes include firearms training.

Mostly they talk about gun control, welfare and taxes. They train so they are ready to protect their property and family from attacks by foreign terrorists or during riots.

Roy said militias will always exist, but will decline.

''All of them will find another group to go to or they will eventually get back into the system. They'll get a job or they'll get a date. They'll get tired of the criticism and ridicule.''


http://www.sbcsun.com/default.asp?puid=3936&spuid=3936&indx=918751&article=on

Sodbuster
June 12, 2001, 11:27 PM
Forked-tongue Roy says you can't paint all these organizations with one stroke of the brush, and then he does it. Typical of his type. I wonder who is watching the watchman. And I wonder if Roy is a member of the militia; he may not even know it. He definitely thinks he is a psychiatrist.

Jody Hudson
June 13, 2001, 12:05 AM
The problem, as I see it with the Militia movement, is that there are far too many members who are not very good at intellectual honesty, nor at intelligent observation of the obvious. Too many of the "leaders" were kooky and irrational. One obvious lunacy was the overwhelming attention on "black helicopters", when anyone who LOOKS at the obvious can see that ALL the helicopters, just about, are a dark green that is black for all intent.

MOST of the Militia were pretenders who disappeared like a morning mist in the rising sun. They claimed such things as "from my cold dead fingers" and yet at the first whisper of opposition they ran, hid, and pretended they never were a part of any Militia.

A very good for-instance was the Missoula contingent of the Montana Milliatia which usually consisted of no less than 10,000 people in the Missoula meetings which were usually held at the University there. Within a month of the first Feds coming to town and checking for membership -- the meetings were down by over 90% and a month later there were about 20 people left who would claim to be members in Missoula. The next meeting there were 3 in attendance.

Most of the bad actors in the Militia movement were actually government moles, agents, and paid trouble-makers. The media purposely misquoted the good guys, such as the Trouchmans, etc. And, it was evident that the media was guided.

IF... the Militia wanted to get REAL... they should all get very good at e-mail and political activism; they should get Patriots elected to office and teach them to shoot straight from the mouth instead of only from the gun.

The problem was, MOST of the Militia were just boys with guns for toys and no real integrity nor any real Patriotism. Some did a great job. Some still do. Some are a major force still, in reporting the truth, political activism and honest communications. Some have real integrity. They are few, but they are golden in value. THOSE few put a LOT more stock in what they can do with communication than they do in what they can do with a rifle!!!

I still wonder how much help McVeigh had from government sources at the highest level. I'll let it rest at that.

MatthewM
June 13, 2001, 01:55 AM
>>The problem was, MOST of the Militia were just boys with guns for toys and no real integrity nor any real Patriotism<<

Jody,
Like Roy, I have to wonder where you get so much information. Did you do a couple thousand interviews and use statistical analysis to extrapolate your data to come up with what "MOST" militia members are like? Do you think that Roy did? Would Roy tell the truth about any findings from such work?

Every individual militia member is different from the other and making any blanket statements about them is ridiculous. The reason most will no longer openly participate is the justified fear of having their families tore appart by the "justice" system. Merely attending a meeting might get your drivers license recorded and you may be later arrested on some trumped up conspiracy charge.

McVeigh wasn't a milita member. Every member quoted denounces his actions. However, that isn't good enough for them, is it?

-I've never attended a militia meeting and never will. I'm already armed and trained... Wouldn't want my name recorded either.

beemerb
June 13, 2001, 02:17 AM
jody;
In my opinion you are way off base.After Ok City bombing most of the groups went deep underground.
I would allso like to know where you got your information on militia groups.I know a few and they are nothing like you discribe.Please give me a source for your info.

pokerkid
June 13, 2001, 12:08 PM
A couple of things to consider.....

1. McVeigh trying to infiltrate ONE militia meeting does not a militia man make of timmay.

2. OKC-was a FED operation that was successful in its mission of bringing about the Domestic Terrorism Bill and the demonization of the American Militia movement that was growing quickly by the day because of the Government MURDERS in Waco.

3. McVeigh was a patsy. Should that EVER be exposed, dont worry there are several other false flags the FEDs/Media consortium can still peddle... ie

It was the evil Aryan Republican Army - most involved with this group were agents of a wide variety of alphabet-FED agencies....

what did the ADL know, and when did they know it...

could it have been with the help of
Mike Brescia and Andreas Strassmier??

4. Where do you think most of the recently retired-Klintoon hating service people have gone???

like BOB said above... the milita have gone underground, but many now fill the ranks of your average police officer, fire fighter, air plane pilots etc....

I like to thank the pukes at SPLC and the ADL for thinking the Militia movement is over.... NOTT!!

Expect for the Press/Feds to create a NEW incident in where as the evil -militia did it again.

One point i always bring up to those that are clueless about militias....

If these folks where as bad as the government makes them out to be, THEN THE MILITIA WOULD BE STAGING A MAJOR EVENT DAILY, Hourly.

WE ARE EVERY WHERE, we have eyes and ears that see and hear everything.

We have the best intell in the world.

What scares our Criminal Leaders is that they know WE HAVE THE GOODS on them. That is why they try so hard to KILL THE MESSENGER because the message exposes these pukes to the light of TRUTH..


Dont worry folks... we shall prevail. Read George Washingtons vision given to him by the Holy Spirit at Valley Forge winter of 1777.

if you havent read it, then please go here
http://www.pokerface.com/george.htm

peace
pk

Different
June 13, 2001, 03:40 PM
Well said, pokerkid.

Navy joe
June 13, 2001, 05:53 PM
You know, I dislike militias... a lot! Here's why. They are a group, kinda like gov. Any group attracts weak-minded people who want their thinking done for them. Militias included. I am however a member of the constitutionally defined militia, and always will be as long as I can both shoot and think. As hokey as the statement is, I AM an army of one, and when the time arises, those that have pure hearts and minds will end up together. If I didn't know them before or they aren't family trust may be a little sticky at first. Contrary to this study, the un-organized militia is alive and well over here. And like Tamara says, if its time to bury your guns, its time to dig them up.

swatman
June 13, 2001, 06:16 PM
Navy,
so now anyone who joins a militia is a "weak minded person"??
IMHO it takes an awefully weak mind to paint a whole group a certain way when you simply disagree with a few of them.
You are an army of one? Thats good so whats wrong with several people who believe in the constitution getting together?
Yoy believe the pure of heart will find each other when the time come?
The time has already come my friend. Tactically it is better to find those people now onstead of waiting for that "time to arise"
Just my 0.02":rolleyes:

Cosmoline
June 13, 2001, 09:17 PM
"Militia" probably covers too many different groups to be a very useful term. If I give my neighbor an old rifle to use during civil unrest, are we a "militia"? Is a Neo-NAZI group in Idaho a "militia"? Were the self-organized and self-goverend volunteer units in Revolutionary War, Mexican War, Civil War and Spanish American War "militias"? Were the residents of Alaska in 1941 a Militia? In a broad sense, we're all potential militia members because we all have an intrinsic right to defend our homeland against actual (i.e., not black helicopters or UFOs) armed invaders with or without federal approval. As far as the modern self-proclaimed "militias", some seem to be fine, but others really do seem to be made up of trolls and yahoos. Organizing informal units outside the federal system is a fine idea, but perhaps "volunteers" is a better term. And no, it's not a legitimate militia group if everyone gets to be an officer.

MatthewM
June 14, 2001, 12:58 AM
Two of you go to a friend's house to watch the game and help with some reloading. You all agree that on the off chance something real bad comes down, you will call each other and that when buying spare ammo you will all buy .22, .45 and .223 so that you can pool your resources.

Wow, that was a real scarry militia meeting by a bunch of weak minded simpletons. In truth, it might end up being a very important discussion, yet the only one ever had.

(ps: That's what I'm buying, now I've just got to tell a couple friends)

Scott Conklin
June 14, 2001, 01:56 AM
Helped form the ICVM and never have I been accused of being weak minded. I believe I may have been called everything else in the book, but never that. :)

And the militia is not losing ground in any way. The same core is still there. The ones that matter, not people like Trochman or Olson, are still meeting and talking. Staying in touch and communicating. For now that is what it is all about.

What WAS funny though was watching everyone come out of the woodwork back in January. The threat of an Owl Gore coup mobilized people. By the thousands. When it was correctly resolved they went back about their business. That proved to me what I had always believed: When the SHTF all these people who have communicated and associated and grown to know each other will be there. They'll know who is who and where to go and how to work together.

It isn't necessary to have 1000 people meetings anymore. Klintoon laid the groundwork thru his regime and that groundwork will last at least a generation. Most of us knew that was all we really needed to do from the get-go anyway.

RHarris
June 14, 2001, 03:16 AM
U.S. Code Title 10 sec. 311

USP45
June 14, 2001, 08:29 AM
So speaking of militias... any new news on Mr. Shoemaker?

www.illinoismilitia.org

ajaxinacan
June 14, 2001, 01:13 PM
A quick glance at our first militia movement, our original "minutemen", reveals much the same pattern as today. Some of the early and most vocal members were the first to leave, retreating from battle, fleeing the field in the face of the enemy, and refusing to serve under regular officers.

It was the dedicated few who remained, enlisted in the Continental Army, submitted to training, and served with discipline who made a difference.

In short, some militia remain militia when the shooting starts, some become real soldiers.

Militia are essentially useless in a real war, unless they manage to mold themselves into something more professional.

pokerkid
June 14, 2001, 04:34 PM
Dude
i have met John and his family several times. Some of his speeches have brought me to tears. he loves this country and has only tried to put out as much of the TRUTH as he knows it. Some information hasnt been on the money, but SO MUCH of it has.

I have nothing to say on Olson, i dont know where his mind is at, but dont lump trochman in with him, please
thanks
pk