View Full Version : Nato 124 gr FMJ = 9mm pistol or subgun ammo?

Sling Shot
June 29, 2000, 05:43 AM
I saw some Winchester 9mm 124 gr FMJ ammo for sale on the ammoman's web site. It stated that the ammo was Nato spec ammo and loaded to over 1200 fps. It also said that the ammo had the Nato stamp on the case head. Is this pistol ammo or subgun ammo. What is the difference between 9mm subgun ammo and 9mm pistol ammo. Help me out on this one men. Sling Shot

June 29, 2000, 06:28 AM
Sling Shot,

Janes is recognized as the foremost authority of data for military ordnance in the world.
According to Janes:

NATO specifies a 115 grain FMJ at 1300 fps at a mean pressure of 29,158 PSI.

The USA M882 specifies a 124 grain FMJ at 1230 fps, plus or minus 50 fps.

Israel Carbine Ball plus-P is a 115 grain FMJ at 1,378 fps.

South African ball is a 117 grain FMJ at 1,316 fps.

It sounds like the Winchester load is the US M882 equivalent.


Make mine lean, mean, and 9x19!

Sling Shot
June 29, 2000, 01:41 PM
9x19: Thanks for the clarification. So what you are saying is that the M882 is what the US military is using in their issue Baretta 92 FS pistols? But what gets me is that some gun makers say not to use subgun 9mm in a pistol even though, according to the velocities that you listed, it seems that some of the subgun ammo would have lower pressures than some +p pistol ammo. Am I just reading all this wrong, or is there more to it? Sling Shot

[This message has been edited by Sling Shot (edited June 29, 2000).]

June 29, 2000, 06:59 PM
I'm under the impression that "sub-gun" designated ammo is generally 147 g, especially when utilizing supressors, for its subsonic characteristics.

I believe that Firearms Tactical ran a piece about it within the last year... you may be able to find it in their archives at www.firearmstactical.com. (http://www.firearmstactical.com.)

In any event, I'm interested in the M882 that Ammoman offers, as well. I wish I could find some locally first, though, rather than jump in head first...

Any comments appreciated.


June 29, 2000, 08:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 9x19:

NATO specifies a 115 grain FMJ at 1300 fps at a mean pressure of 29,158 PSI.

Out of curiosity, if NATO specifies a 115 grain FMJ, then is the 124 grain "9mm NATO" offered by Winchester not really a NATO-spec munition, or does the specification also include 124 grain bullets? I had been under the impression that all NATO loads in 9mm were 124 grain anyway, until I read your excerpt from Jane's.

June 29, 2000, 09:34 PM

To be honest, I'm not sure, tho' I imagine NATO probably does have a spec for 124 grain bullets. I'll have to hit the library's Reference section and look at Jane's again to be sure.

I do know that alot of what the american ammo companies produce is the US M882 spec regardless of how it is advertised.

Make mine lean, mean, and 9x19!

June 30, 2000, 12:08 AM
I have bought over a thousand rounds of this stuff and love it. I run it through a Glock 17 and have had no problems. Not too bad of a recoil, does not seem too hot. Try some and you might like it.


June 30, 2000, 12:31 AM
The problem is that guns made in the US have been in the past not made to shoot 9mm mil spec loads. The subgun loads are just real 9mm stuff like shot in military guns, thats why lugers dont work well with winrem loads in the past. The British did have a special ops load for the SAS used in subguns that is very hot and is the only subgun only load for the 9mm. The real 9mm is a hi-vel load and untill the 45 got replaced the US ammo was very under powered and would not even function in lugers and other real 9s very well at all. 2 differant loads for the same cal is a poor choice in the military world WW-1 Germal luger loads will beat a old smith 39 up in very short order thus the "subgun ammo" fallicy. Sorry, just a 9mm fan from the days when they did not make them to shoot 9mm ammo thus a sore point. :) :) :). Rather have a Radom than a 39. :) :)

June 30, 2000, 08:15 AM
I thought the "black tip" 9mm from Cole's is the so-called subgun ammo.

June 30, 2000, 03:51 PM
I wanna see ya load a 115 to 1300+ fps and keep the pressure under 30K psi! Where are ya measuring it, at the muzzle? :)

US M882 is loaded to about SAAMI +P levels, under 38.5K psi.

Some NATO stuff, some of the Win NATO, is loaded 20% over SAAMI std max (35K), about 42K psi. Not the same thing.

NATO does not necessarily mean high pressure and/or high velocity. The NATO headstamp is more a quality control guarantee than "hotness". Have fired stuff w NATO headstamp that was around 124/1120 for example.

UZI/Sampson, stuff w the TZZ headstamp, can be hot. The brown laquer tipped stuff did over 1300 from M9s. The black tip is usually used to ID smg ammo, but that usually means hard primers for open bolt guns, not hotter ammo.


June 30, 2000, 04:59 PM
This is taken from page 138 of Street Stoppers. "...38,500 psi for the 9mm +P...The 9mm +P+ designation is not recognized by SAAMI. (The chamber pressure for the 9mm NATO cartridge is measured using a different test method, although the estimated chamber pressure under the SAAMI protocol is 42,000 to 43,000 psi.)"