View Full Version : Need help with firearm IDs

February 2, 2001, 06:34 PM
I need to find info (model,age,value) on the following guns-

Pistol-Top Break Revolver approx .44 cal. Barrel-8"
Springfield Mass.
Pat. July 10 . 60 Jan. 17. Feb. 17. July 11. 65 & Aug. 24. 69

Rifle-Lever Action-Octagon Barrel approx .44 cal. Barrel - 23 5/8 ". Overall Length - 43 3/4 "
"Winchester's Repeating Arms New Haven. CT.
King's Improvement Patented-March 29. 1866 October 16 1860" inscribed on barrel

Any help would be appreciated.

February 2, 2001, 08:36 PM
The pistol sounds like a First Model American (Model No. 3 First Model) Smith and Wesson. Made from 1870-1872. Without looking closely it is hard to be sure as it could be a Second Model American, or even a Russian Model. Value could be anything from $1000 to over $5000 depending on exact model and caliber and overall condition.

The Winchester should be a Model 1866 Fourth Model (going by serial number which would have been made in 1879). Many variants of this from the factory which can greatly influence value. Caliber is also important as this model was made in various calibers, including a .44 rimfire. Value from $3000 to over $10,000 depending on exact caliber and variant and condition.

Mike Irwin
February 2, 2001, 09:48 PM

If, as SW627 suspects, this gun is a First Model American, and judging by the serial number if COULD be, it very likely could be among the 1000 revolvers that were purchased by the United States Army around 1871.

Without inspecting the gun, however, there's no way to tell if it is a First Model American or a First Model Russian commercial model.

Is the gun by chance marked with a "US" on the top of the barrel rib, or have "OWA" on the left grip?

James K
February 2, 2001, 11:55 PM
Hi, guys,

Check me if I am wrong, but I think the Russian model would have been so marked, and the serial is too low for either the Russian commercial or the Second Model American, so I am inclined to think it is the First Model American, and as Mike says, possibly part of the Army order.

Pilmo, can you provide some info on condition, overall appearance, percent of original finish, parts missing or broken, nickel or blue finish.


Mike Irwin
February 3, 2001, 02:04 AM

You're right, it is too early for a Russian commercial model, according to what is known about the guns; I read my good wrong

Apparently, though, it was not uncommon for some guns to miss being marked, especially early on in production, so it is conceivable that it is a Russian model, just unmarked.

But, I personally think that it's an American model. Just a hunch.

And if it is, and it's the correct serial number, someone has a VERY nice piece of history.

And I'm jealous as all get out. :)

Pilmo, even better, can you take some digital photographs of it and post them?

February 3, 2001, 09:08 AM
If it is a First Model American with that serial number it IS on the list of US purchased guns (and should have US at the back end of the barrel rib). One of the problems with going by serial numbers alone is that many of the foreign military contract guns (Russian, Turkish, Japanese) started over at serial number 1 for the contract. These SHOULD have different barrel markings (either "Russian" or "Reissue") on the barrel rib. That was why I said it was hard to tell without direct examination (sometimes hard even WITH direct examination).