Free floating the Weatherby Vanguard

[wbw]

First let me say that I have very little experience with rifles and I'm not much of a gunsmith. I've been much more of a handgun guy. I do have a 10/22 and I'm getting a Savage 17 HMR. I'm also now thinking about a 223 bolt rifle and the Weatherby Vanguard is near the top of my list. I've read good reviews of it, and it is supposed to come with a 3 shot MOA. But I'm also reading that the barrel is not free floated. I'm wondering if I got one of these, couldn't I just lightly remove some of the stock material until it is free floating? Or is it not that easy?

I don't hunt and I don't shoot competitively, so I really don't need the utmost accuracy. But I'm thinking that even for a non-gunsmithing type of guy like me, free floating shouldn't be that difficult. Am I wrong? (Or should I just consider the Howa instead?) And please remember that I have almost no experience with this sort of thing before you beat me up.

Thanks for any input.

Edited to add: I'm also looking at the T/C Venture.

[tangolima]

Shoot the rifle first. It may just be good enough for what you need. I have a bunch of old rifles that I tinker with. I only tinker when they fail to meet my standard of better than 2 MOA at 100yd with iron sight. Some just do that even without free floating. In fact, a few of them even got worse when I floated the barrel. I had to shim the barrel. One mosin nagant and one smle #1 mk 3. They all have long skinny barrels.

-TL

[DPris]

Vanguard IIs come with excellent accuracy & are deliberately set up NOT to be free-floated.

Mine in .223 has done three shots in just a hair over a half inch at 100 yards.
There's no way I'm going to risk losing that & no need to even try to improve on it.

Don't automatically assume that free-floating a barrel is always either needed or beneficial.
Get the gun, shoot it with different loads & a GOOD scope, and you'll probably find there's no need to mess with it.

The Vanguard IIs have across-the-board better accuracy than the original Vanguards.

Denis

[T. O'Heir]

Absolutely shoot the rifle first. And if you're not reloading, you'll have to try a box of as many brands and bullet weights as you can to find the ammo it shoots best. Consistency is far more important than the actually group size.
Floating a barrel is not and never has been a guarantee of anything. Some rifles like it. Some do not. However, the only way to find out of a particular rifle likes it or not is to try it.
It is as simple as relieving by sanding the barrel channel so the barrel doesn't touch the stock from the end of the forestock to the chamber area, only. Can't touch when the barrel gets hot either.
If accuracy and consistency goes south, putting as pressure point back in isn't a big deal. It's done with a dab of bedding material about an inch or so in from the end of the forestock. Do not forget the release agent.
If you float it, you might as well glass bed the whole receiver, extending to under the chamber area, but none of the barrel channel. Buy an Acraglas kit(about $30 at your local gun shop or Brownell's.) and read the instructions. Rocket science it ain't.
Lee-Enfield No. 1 Mk 3's require a pressure point, as I recall. Something about the design.

[wbw]

Thanks guys. I'm learning something.

[Cowboy_mo]

The Vanguard IIs have across-the-board better accuracy than the original Vanguards.

I will not disagree with your assertion but I would point out, this is probably due to the new trigger in the S2. I would offer to put my original (which now has a Timney trigger) against the S2's. Since you are probably a much better shot than I, you shoot both and then we'll measure:D

[DPris]

I've had a "Van I" & now have a Van II.
It's more than just the trigger.
Denis

[Bart B.]

If one can shoot their stuff accurately and precisely enough to see the 1/4 to 1/2 MOA change in elevation zero's from barrels with bedding pads under their chamber area heating up afer a few shots are fired, they'll grind that epoxy pad out. It's often thought that pad helped support the barrel; the fact that really heavy barreled match rifles without that pad won the matches and set the records and those with pads faired less on the scoreboard.

Same for bedding pads under the barrel at the fore end tip as the rifle' shot in different positions causing the external force on the fore end changing those pads' contact against the barrel. Remington tried adjustable tuning screws angled up to the barrel at the fore end tip on their 40X match rifles. People who shot good enough to see their fallicy backed the screws out and shot the barrels totally free floated. Super-accurate match grade M1 and M14/M1A rifles suffered from changes in sling tension bending the stock fore end different amounts where it was clamped via a metal band hard pressed onto the barrel that changed point of impact. That band had 20 to 30 pounds of pull down force on the barrel and changing that force direction or amount caused the barrel to whip differently shooting bullets out in different directions.

Some myths are hard to dispell in spite of overwhelming evidence contrary to them.

[tangolima]

I can't possibly tell the difference between 1/2 and 1/4 MOA with high enough level of confidence, but I can certainly tell the difference between 6 and 2 MOA. Not everyone or every rifle is match winning, record breaking material.

-TL

[reynolds357]

8 out of 10 times, free floating the Vangard is a mistake unless you also bed it. Simply free floating it without a bedding job will usually make it shoot worse than it did with a pressure point. In my opinion, Wby uses the pressure point to compensate for poor factory bedding.

[DPris]

I couldn't care less how or why they do whatever it is they do, I just like the way mine shoots.
No reason to mess with it. :)
Denis

[Picher]

The barrel bedding should be ground or sanded out to allow at least 1/16" clearance when the screws are tightened.

If you decide to bed the receiver, grind out the contact points at least 1/16" from present surface, EXCEPT for small pads just behind the recoil shield, near the front screw and under the tang. Those three positions are necessary to hold the receiver in the original position while the bedding material sets up.

Next, grease the screws to keep them from becoming glued to the threads and bedding. Don't tighten the screws against the small pads too tightly or it will crush them...just tight enough to maintain position while the epoxy sets.

Don't forget to put two layers of masking tape under the recoil plate and on the muzzle side and the two sides (remove after epoxy is hardened). That will allow the action to be removed after setting and to prevent the action from rocking on the recoil plate.

Oh yeah, the best release agent several of us have used is paste shoe polish..two coats, buffing after each.

[AllenJ]

Don't forget to put two layers of masking tape under the recoil plate and on the muzzle side and the two sides (remove after epoxy is hardened). That will allow the action to be removed after setting and to prevent the action from rocking on the recoil plate.

+1, and I learned the hard way :eek:

On my Ruger M77 I saw no reason to use masking tape and had no issues. On my son's R700 I decided not use any tape and getting the action out was an adventure. It took me somewhere in the neighborhood of 30 minutes, working it back and forth, before it finally came out. This was not an issue of the compound sticking to the action, it was just that tight. Use the tape!

[Mystro]

Whoa......, lets slow the mods down a bit and see how the factory rifle shoots first. Lets also make sure the shooter has a disciplined enough shooting style to make a informed decision on the rifle with only one or two trips to the range.
Personally, I wouldn't do anything to a new rifle unless he has 4-6 range visits and tried out several factory loads first. Why condem a innocent rifle with internet hearsay and slanderous claims of inaccuracy before it shows its stuff. :D

[wbw]

I'm the OP here. Remember that I don't even have the gun yet. I was under the impression that free floating a barrel was the preferred way to go. That's why I was asking about doing it to the Vanguard if I got one. Maybe not every rifle needs that.

After more research I'm leaning more towards a T/C Venture or Dimension. The Venture is pillar bedded and free floated and the Dimension is also free floated. The Dimension has a look that not everyone loves, but I'm OK with it.

[Picher]

Make your choice and pay the money. A rifle that has already been pillar bedded and glassbedded/freefloated is a great beginning. I wonder whether they used the actual action, however. I'd probably skim-coat it to be sure, but would probably fire it first.

The only rifle that I didn't bed is the Tikka T3 Lite, .243 Win, as it shoots great right out of the box and is in a stiff synthetic stock. Handloads average 1/2 MOA, but occasional groups of 1/4". Don't mess with success!!!

[DPris]

Tinkering with a given rifle in free-floating & bedding is simply not a required process on every gun, not even a desirable one on every rifle.

What do you want the gun to do?

Competition?
Hunting?
Plinking?

There's some spill-over between all three in terms of accuracy requirements, but each has its own "acceptable" accuracy levels.

Competition is obviously the strictest & most demanding, but you don't say you want to compete.

Hunting accuracy can get by (depending on where & what you hunt) with a rifle that groups inside 4 inches at 100 yards.
Two inches at 100 yards is better, one inch is very good for a hunting rifle, but typically not needed unless you're taking long shots.

Varminting has more advanced requirements.

Plinkin' & dinkin' can get by with 2-4 inch groups, depending on what you're plinkin' & dinkin' with and at.

I have exactly one pillar-bedded rifle & it ain't the Vanguard that easily out-shoots it. :)

I can get 1.5-inch groups out of a stock Ruger & three stock CZ centerfire rifles here now.
That's even with iron sights on all four rifles.

I don't need anything better, I (admittedly just one man's opinion) don't see the need to tinker for improvement, for my uses.
Define yours before you go much further.

On my Weatherby, the synthetic stock is not going to move around with changing weather.
I have a scoped Ruger with laminated stock that isn't going to move around, either, and it'll go around an inch for 3 at 100.

What more do you need?

I'm not knocking the idea of going for the most you can possibly get out of a rifle, don't misunderstand.
Just saying you can pull some very good accuracy right out of the box on a decent gun today, without spending hundreds of dollars or hundreds of hours rebuilding it.
Denis

[Sure Shot Mc Gee]

Why bother unless its targeting is in doubt.
Weatherby's have a reputation. "guaranteed SUB-MOA right out of the box." Unless there is much more to gain other than what already exist (Sub MOA)

FWIW: I see little benefit in a free float job on a brand new factory tuned Weatherby.

[oldscot3]

I have a 270 Vanguard so I'm going to chime in here. I agree with the others who recommend shooting it with a variety of ammo before tinkering with the bedding, however, something came up here that I've seen often regarding Vanguards. The often repeated notion that Vanguards are required to have a forend pressure point because they're "built that way" just doesn't make sense to me. What makes them different from other rifles that respond well to free floating?

I'm not a custom rifle tuner, I'd really like to know.

[steveNChunter]

I would assume the sub-MOA guarantee goes out the window if you float the barrel. For that reason, I'd leave it alone and if you can't get sub-MOA groups out of it, send it back to Weatherby and get another one.

The T/C's you're looking at have the same guarantee.

[CarJunkieLS1]

Don't get me started on Weatherby...I'd buy the Venture any day and twice on Sunday. This is my personal experience

I've had a Weatherby Vanguard S2 7mm-08 for about a year now. And I can't get this thing to consistently shoot well. I have tried 4 different factory ammo's (Core-Locts, Power Points, Hornady SST's, and Hornady Interlocks) all were the 139/140gr weight. It will not shoot to consistent POI or shoot better than MOA.

With the same POA it may group 1" high and 3" right. I can remove rifle from rest wait 10 minutes and shoot again and it might be 2" left and 2" high. It seems to be very random.

I have tried 2 different ring/mount combos and also 2 different scopes. Those rings and scopes are known good as they are on different rifles and shoot well.
I had a professional gunsmith bed the action and free float barrel in an aftermarket stock. It shoots more consistent now but still has a slight random POI shift.

I have tried handloads with a 130gr Speer Hot-Cor and a 120gr NBT. Both have been loaded with IMR 4064 and Varget. I loaded min-max and neither bullet shot well with IMR4064. Yesterday I shot the same bullets with Varget and the 130gr Hot-Cor went from MOA to 3MOA during min-max testing.

The min charge of Varget (42.5) touched the first 2 shots and the 3rd shot I pulled slightly and it went right at 1" group. I didn't shoot anymore as I ran out of time.

FAST FORWARD:
Today and I got curious and checked Weatherby's website and they list 9.5 twist for the 7-08 but I checked mine today with a cleaning rod and it came out 1:10 exactly 4 times in a row. I checked other rifles I have and the twist came out exactly what they were supposed to be. So I believe my method was sound.

Did Weatherby "mess up" on my barrel do I have a bad barrel from the factory and could the 1:10 twist be why my gun despises 139/140gr bullets. Should I dump more $ on this rifle and swap barrels in hopes it shoots like I know it should.

I realize Weatherby says that their barrels like fore end pressure, but since it has been bedded and floated it shoots better, but not much better. The factory Weatherby stock did not fit my action very well at all it was really tight on the receiver and had pressure on the left of the barrel the entire length of the stock.

I'm at a loss here and next time I shoot the best shooting load I've found if it doesnt repeat itself I'm gonna rebarrel it.

BTW I talked to Weatherby and they said that I was wrong when I measured a 1:10 twist and I said I'd like to get the correct twist specified on their website. He just said that if I was to send it in and they shot it in their "master stock" if it produced MOA for 3 shots that it didn't matter what twist my barrel actually was.

I called Weatherby before I even took it out of the factory stock and the weren't exactly what I would call helpful...I was told that 99% of the time they get rifles sent back to them that the rifle shoots fine so I'd be quote "wasting my time and money"

After that conversation that's when I started messing with the rifle. Earlier this week I discovered that my barrel has a 1:10 twist instead of the 1:9.5 its supposed to have. Wetherby again told me that if they get it back and it quote "shoots 3 shots into MOA that it doesn't matter what the actual twist is" IMO if its supposed to have a 1:9.5 and it has anything different that I should get a new barrel installed because it not what I thought I was buying. Weatherby said it doesn't matter!
That's like a new car that's supposed to have 18" rims and tires on it, but when u get home its got 15" steel wheels and hubcaps...you call the dealership and they say it doesn't really matter because they still roll don't they.

When I have a Weatherby customer service person tell me I'd be wasting my time and money by sending it in. Then I just got over really quick. Also telling me that it was irrelevant that it has a 1:10 vs the 1:9.5 its supposed to have. And at that he basically said I was wrong.

Don't know about you guys but when I tell them about 2 concerns I'm having about their product and they say quote "wasting my time and money" and "barrel twist is irrelevant" I'm over it and at that point I'm done with them and I will NEVER reccomend Weatherby products to anybody.

[Bart B.]

CarJunkie, I think you'll be hard pressed to tell the difference in a half inch of twist rate for the 7-08 cartridge unless the worst groups are 10-shot ones under 1/10th MOA.

Weatherby's accuracy guarantee is based on 3-shot groups; each shot fired about 1 minute apart. Their rifles then start walking shots because their barrel's bending from head expansion putting more pressure on one point around the receiver face. This is common with all commercial rifles; they don't square up the receiver face with the barrel tenon axis. Rebarreling one without facing the receiver properly ends up doing the same shot walking as the barrel heats up.

[DPris]

The most accurate rifle I've ever fired was a Weatherby MKV.
The Van I I had could easily pull off 1.5 inches.
The Van II Kryptek I have here does what I said it does & it's in the top 10 rifles for accuracy I've worked with professionally in 24 years.

Every company puts out the occasional lemon.
Denis

[SCgman]

wbw,

The weatherby vanguard and the TC venture are two very good rifle values. They are different animals but both enjoy good success for a reason, consumers are generally very satified with the results at the bench- usually with factory ammo.

One of my best bench shooters is a 30-06 Ruger Hawkeye in the factory wood stock, not bedded nor is the barrel floated. Its putting up .5" groups repeatably(fed fusion). Another top performer is a weatherby vanguard S1- originally non floated heavy barrel contour, unbedded in the basic synthetic stock. It shot MOA plus or minus. I put it in a B&C Medalist full aluminum bedded stock and with Nosler Trophy grade it shoots .5". I've never had a venture but I do own 2 TC Icons that I'll never part with. The venture uses the same barrel and trigger as the discontinued Icon.

There good shooters out there bedded or not, barrel floated or not. These two you've mention have excellent track records. If you need features to feel good about the purchase, sounds like the venture may be the choice between these two. Just be advised, accuracy features can be defeated by poor bench set-up and improper technique, so many times it's hard to pinpoint an issue with the rifle. Each gun will have a favorite ammo which you'll have to figure out.

Buy one of each, check the action screw torque on both, have fun. Both are very good quality rifles.