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Eppie
April 1, 2014, 09:06 AM
Hi Guys,
I have a Oehler 35P chronograph and I have been measuring velocity in a bit of a sloppy manner. I generally set up the chronograph up about 15-20 feet in front of the bench. Obviously the recorded velocities are not actual muzzle velocities, some kind of mathematical adjustment needs to be made for that distance that I haven't been taking into account. Can anyone help?

Joe

Jimro
April 1, 2014, 09:32 AM
Set up the screens at double the distance, measure the velocity at that distance.

Use the difference in velocity between 15~20 and 30~40 to calculate what you are getting at the muzzle. It will be a linear approximation, but for the speeds involved will give you the answer you are looking for.

Jimro

Brian Pfleuger
April 1, 2014, 09:50 AM
There's no need to know that number. You're losing MAYBE 20fps in that distance. That means your velocities at any given distance are off by no more than 20fps. Use a ballistics calculator and change the speed by 20 fps, see what happens to the trajectory.

If you must know and are happy with a reasonable estimate, JBM ballistics predicts true muzzle velocity if you give it chrony distance. If you really must know and can't except an estimate, get that new style chrony that mounts on the barrel.

emcon5
April 1, 2014, 09:53 AM
Depending on what Ballistics software you are using, "Distance to chronograph" may be a data point.

It is in JBM:
http://www.jbmballistics.com

swmike
April 1, 2014, 09:54 AM
There are several "tools" available. I have an inespensive program called "Load from a Disk" that I use to calculate Internal Ballistics when developing a new load. One of the tools included with the program is an instrument correction tool.

Enter the distance from muzzle to first screen, screen spacing, bullet BC, and recorded speed. It gives you a corrected speed.

All this said, I find that It's only a few feet per second. Easier to just set up the chronograph using a piece of string that insures your measurements are equal from setup to setup.

I only use the chrono data for the first shot or two at distance to get me "on paper". From there it's all about developing my own DOPE for a given round and rifle. At that point it's all about what the rifle/round does rather than what the chrono "says". Think of it as "doping" your chronograph. Just tighten up your setup procedure by using a more consistent spacing from muzzle to first sensor.

Sarge
April 1, 2014, 10:17 AM
Personally, I am happy just knowing what my loads are doing a few feet beyond the muzzle. If I really wanted to know, as closely as possible, the actual muzzle velocity I would follow the process of measuring it at twice the distance calculating from these on back.

This is America. Need has nothing to do with it.

Brian Pfleuger
April 1, 2014, 10:29 AM
Need has nothing to do with it, but this is a bit like a wild red herring chase. We can seek and find the information but once we have it, it is useful only to say that we have it. It serves no purpose.

It is very much the pursuit of useless information (http://psych.princeton.edu/psychology/research/shafir/pubs/Pursuit%20&%20Misuse%20Useless%20Info.pdf).

jmr40
April 1, 2014, 05:51 PM
10'-15' from the muzzle is close enough. I doubt if it is even 20fps as Brian suggested. At any rate the accuracy of the chronograph and the consistency of loaded ammo will vary more than the velocity you lost in that 10'.

4runnerman
April 1, 2014, 06:08 PM
I'm with brian and jim here. At 15 feet I don't think you lose even 5 fps.

Jimro
April 1, 2014, 06:12 PM
Actually it is NOT useless information in two scenarios that I can think of off the top of my head.

1, you happen to be using custom bullet of unknown BC. A home made bullet mold, lathe turned, or modified commercial bullet would fall into this category.

2, you are trying to measure a very specific velocity for a bullet that slows down incredibly fast (such as a paper blank bullet, or drag stabilized projectile from a smoothbore) to determine lethal range. My method of doubling the distance and then adding the difference to the closer reading would NOT work in this case.

In those cases, a precise measurement of the projectile at the muzzle would be quite useful, in addition to the normal 15~20 foot measurements you can begin to calculate BC and trajectory tables.

Jimro

Eppie
April 1, 2014, 07:12 PM
Here's a page from Bryan Litz "Accuracy and Precision For Long Range Shooting. Its all about the cumulative effect of lots of little things.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=94900&stc=1&d=1396397552

Brian Pfleuger
April 1, 2014, 07:23 PM
Here's a page from Bryan Litz "Accuracy and Precision For Long Range Shooting.

But, you don't have a 30-40 fps error, you have at most 20-ish and likely less.

Look at his chart. A 15fps error with that bullet still puts 99% of bullets inside a 5" bullseye at 400 yards.

And, you have a constant error. You can call it 3480 when it was really 3500. The absolute value is meaningless, except on paper. If you're actually shooting real bullets you are going to know where you hit and how to adjust.
Just as that page says, it only matters (IF EVER) on the first shot. Not the first shot of the day either, the first shot you EVER FIRE with that load.

In any case, the answer is provided by JBM Ballistics or by the muzzle mounted chrony, if JBM's guesstimate still isn't good enough for you.

Actually it is NOT useless information in two scenarios that I can think of off the top of my head.

1)Getting the number at any two ranges works. Actual "muzzle" velocity is still irrelevant. You'd be much better off to get the values at 20 yards and 100 yards than at "muzzle" and 15 or 20 feet.

2)Let me know when we need that scenario applies.;)

Eppie
April 1, 2014, 07:43 PM
Brian, I understand your point and that's good enough for most people. And most people never buy a chrony.

But since those that go through the some expense to buy a chrony to get a muzzle velocity on their hand loads, doesn't it make sense to get the most accurate MV possible for a little bit incremental effort?

If one is a competitive shooter it is obvious the big difference that it would make on the score on the second target.

4runnerman
April 1, 2014, 08:00 PM
Eppie- I have a chroney ( 3 of them ) and I also shoot F Class. It makes no difference,because as Brian states The affects are for the first shot. I know that my rifle zeroed at 300 yards takes me 37 clicks to get to 600 yard zero. Now if my bullet is 20 fps slower that will not matter because after my first shot I see the results and adjust accordingly. Most of the time the adjustment would not be even one more click. It turns out to be a hold over of 1/4 inch or so. With 1/4 MOA scope you need to remember that 1 click will be 6 inches or so depending on your zero. There is a lot to be said for 1/8 or more scope MOA. I see what you are pursuing foe sure ,but I don't think it matters to much. If you are carefully doing your hands loads you MV should not change more than 10 FPS between shots any how.

Now on the flip side- I have always wanted to set one of my chroneys at 300 yards right in front of my target to see how accurate JBL and such charts are.
Now you have me thinking again.

Jimro
April 1, 2014, 08:33 PM
Brian,

1)Getting the number at any two ranges works. Actual "muzzle" velocity is still irrelevant. You'd be much better off to get the values at 20 yards and 100 yards than at "muzzle" and 15 or 20 feet.

That is EXTREMELY lazy thinking.

Explain to me again how a non-linear drag function is better calculated without an exact muzzle velocity? You can't, especially not for high drag projectiles.

Let me put it to you this way, one data point is just one data point. Two data points will give you a line between them, a "linear approximation" for the continuous state change between the two points. Three data points will give you an estimate of a curve. More data points means you better describe the curve, and if you have an actual measurement at the origin you can have the higher confidence in your math than if you don't.

Ballisticians use doppler radar to track velocity changes across the entire range of flight for use in calculating BC for a new projectile. You can only extrapolate a line from two points on the curve, so unless you have some magical formulas that defy physics as I know it that can define a curve from a line....

Heck, maybe you do, but then again maybe you are suffering from the Dunning-Kruger Effect here...

2)Let me know when we need that scenario applies.

http://www.defense-technology.com/products.aspx?pid=3027

Tell me again how getting a velocity reading on that bad boy at 100 yards would do you any good? Answer, it won't, max listed effective range is only a fifth of that distance.

Or if you want something from a rifle: http://always-on-target.com/cartridges/short-stop-srta-cartridges/ or http://www.setcan.com/simunition_ammo.php

Now I get what you are saying, that you don't need an exact muzzle velocity for most ballistics applications, and I do agree with that, for commercial bullets launched within normal velocity ranges. Want to launch a 750gr hard cast .510 7 radius bullet at 650 fps? Actual muzzle velocity might be important...

Jimro

Geo_Erudite
April 1, 2014, 08:43 PM
Buy a Magnetospeed V3 (http://www.magnetospeed.com/), they come out this month.

Brian Pfleuger
April 1, 2014, 08:52 PM
You go ahead and figure it out, Jim. I couldn't care less.

Eppie
April 1, 2014, 09:18 PM
Geo_Erudite said: Buy a Magnetospeed V3, they come out this month.

I agree the magnetospeed are very nice. Easy and no hassle to setup. Made in Austin, Texas just like the Oehler. I don't know how accurate they are, but, I already have a Oehler so that is not an option for me.

chris in va
April 1, 2014, 09:25 PM
As muzzle blast will mess with readings, I imagine a cardboard target set up right in front of the barrel will prevent the issue.

Geo_Erudite
April 2, 2014, 09:21 AM
I agree the magnetospeed are very nice. Easy and no hassle to setup. Made in Austin, Texas just like the Oehler. I don't know how accurate they are, but, I already have a Oehler so that is not an option for me.

From the Magnetospeed website

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0150/8926/files/ReviewThumb1.jpg?600
MagnetoSpeed LLC worked with Southwest Research Institute(SwRI) to quantify the ballistic accuracy of the MagnetoSpeed sensor package. SwRI uses a bench top range setup to do ballistic tests on ammunition and uses a double Oehler sky screen setup to accurately capture bullet velocity. In the table above, seven shots were taken all using the same ammunition (7.62x51mm M80) with the MagnetoSpeed sensor as well as the double skyscreen Oehler setup. Velocity 1 above is the velocity measured at the first set of skyscreens and Velocity 2 is read at the second set. When the muzzle velocity is back calculated based on the distance between skyscreen sets and the muzzle we obtain the "Calculated Muzzle" velocity in feet per second (fps). Comparing this to the Magnetospeed data we get percent differences of less than half a percent. This data series shows that the MagnetoSpeed is at least 99.6% accurate to the Oehler system used at SwRI for this test.

Eppie
April 2, 2014, 10:33 AM
4runnerman said: I see what you are pursuing for sure ,but I don't think it matters to much. If you are carefully doing your hands loads you MV should not change more than 10 FPS between shots any how.

You are right on the money. My reloads have shown an SD as low as 3 and as high as 8. I'm quite pleased with them, considering that most writers consider a SD of 10 good.

Geo_Erudite that is very good information to have, and I will follow up on it.

My thanks to all who have responded, something new is gained by all of us when we share or experience, knowledge and insight.

Kindest regards to all

SSA
April 2, 2014, 11:01 AM
Set up the chronograph at 7 yards. Shoot, record, average.
Set your ballistic calculator to 7 yard intervals. See how many fps are lost in those first 7 yards. Add that to the muzzle velocity.
Adjust muzzle velocity as necessary to get the program 7 yard velocity to match the chronograph reading at 7 yards.

JD0x0
April 2, 2014, 11:37 AM
At 15 feet I don't think you lose even 5 fps.
Depends on the cartridge and bullet. At 15 feet BC is actually a factor as it will make a difference in velocity, especially in a fast cartridge with mediocre BC's like .204 ruger.

In .204 ruger with a 40 grain bullet you roughly lose 38FPS at 5 yards. This would pretty much be a worst case scenario. So you're likely not going to see a difference over 40fps. Besides, that's within margin of error. Velocity could change more than that if you hold the rifle differently, or if a cartridge sits in a hot chamber, and that's even within the normal velocity spread of some factory ammo.

At such a close range, you could probably estimate velocity directly at the muzzle, by using readings at 5 yards, and then plugging in the numbers in a ballistic calculator. By working backwards, plug in the data you know, BC, MV at 5 yards. Plugin your 5 yard MV and gradually add velocity until the velocity at 5 yards matches your chrono number, it should be very close to the actual number.

Jimro
April 2, 2014, 02:14 PM
At such a close range, you could probably estimate velocity directly at the muzzle, by using readings at 5 yards, and then plugging in the numbers in a ballistic calculator. By working backwards, plug in the data you know, BC, MV at 5 yards. Plugin your 5 yard MV and gradually add velocity until the velocity at 5 yards matches your chrono number, it should be very close to the actual number.

This works if you know the BC of the bullet in question.

If not you'll need to get bullet drop along with velocity data from multiple ranges to use the same "plug and pray" process for estimating a BC using a ballistics calculator. Basically you use data points to define a curve, then play with the BC variable until you find one that fits the curve.

Then once you have your BC (or a close enough approximation) you can use the above method to calculate the exact muzzle velocity.

Jimro

James K
April 2, 2014, 02:24 PM
Much ado about not much. Rounds of factory ammo in a box can vary more than 15 fps +/-, and it is about impossible to get even the most careful handloads much under that variance. Chasing a goal of having every round leave the muzzle at exactly 2600 fps is a fine, clean, hobby, but so is putting that salt on a bird's tail. Good luck!

Jim

Bart B.
April 2, 2014, 04:04 PM
I'll further muddy the velocity waters by stating that the same rifle and ammo combination can easily have near 100 fps difference in average muzzle velocity across several people shooting it. Bullets shot from the prone position typically leave faster than when shot from standing.

And if the barreled action shooting that ammo was clamped in a fixed mount (like SAAMI tests are), the average muzzle velocity attained in that environment will be faster than that of when people held the rifle. Plus, the standard deviation and spread will be lower, too.

tobnpr
April 2, 2014, 06:13 PM
Much ado about not much. Rounds of factory ammo in a box can vary more than 15 fps +/-, and it is about impossible to get even the most careful handloads much under that variance. Chasing a goal of having every round leave the muzzle at exactly 2600 fps is a fine, clean, hobby, but so is putting that salt on a bird's tail. Good luck!

Amen...
I'll worry more about things like neck tension before minutiae like this that are beyond our ability to control. I'd bet you could put absolutely identical powder loads into identical cases with identical bullets and still get a velocity spread just based on how the powder ends up lying the case at time of ignition.

JMO, but learning wind calls is my priority. My time is better spent sending "reasonably" precise loads 1K yards downrange rather then spending days on end in front the Crony.

4runnerman
April 2, 2014, 06:40 PM
James K- My handloads are always with in 10 FPS. Maybe onece in a while I will have a crazy one,but 90% plus of the time I am in that 10FPS or less. My 308 for example- 175 gn Serria, 43.2 gn RL-15 and a GM Match primer, All rounds leave at 2640 to 2648 FPS. As for store ammo-Could'nt say, Never shot one yet.
And yes- I use my Chrony every time I shoot. Put the same distance away every time. I use a string attached to my Front Rest and to the Chrony too ensure I get same distance always. That is 15 feet away. My front rest and rear rest are also set by a string between them. Now unless my Chrony is bad ( pro chrony) I have to believe what it tells me.

Sorry, but I have to disagree with yor post.

Oops- Correction- Thats a 168 Serria.

tobnpr
April 3, 2014, 09:26 PM
43.2 gn RL-15 and a GM Match primer, All rounds leave at 2640 to 2648 FPS.

So 43.2 gr of Reloder 15, gives you precisely the same mv all the time, regardless of temperature?

I tried it in 54R and .308 loads, and went back to Varget due to what I perceived was temp sensitivity, and found a lot of other similar findings online...

4runnerman
April 4, 2014, 05:15 AM
tobnpr- Yes it does. I get to range in morning at 5 AM,maybe low 50's and leave around 1 or 1:30 Could be as hot as 85 by then. My MV stays the same. I shoot 5 rounds,Clean Barrel, have a sip of pop,pick up brass,text the wife,chat, and then shoot 5 more. MV stays the same. I tried Varget in 308 and went right back to RL-15. I also try to stay with RL-15 in my 6mmbr for matches also. As of latley it has been very hard to find. I will switch to varget in the BR if I have to,but the 308 is RL-15 only.
RL-15 is not temp sensative.
Will my MV change at -30, Yes I am sre it would somewhat, Maybe I should re-word my phrase to- At any given temp,my loads will be with in 10FPS of each other, and not list the MV. I just know in summer ( when I shoot ) It is 2640 to 2648 FPS. My point was-To get loads with in 10 FPS is the norm.

Eppie
April 4, 2014, 07:46 AM
James K said: Much ado about not much. Rounds of factory ammo in a box can vary more than 15 fps +/-, and it is about impossible to get even the most careful handloads much under that variance.

James, here's two of my chrono reports. The first one 2 sets Federal Gold Medal Match and a string of ten shots loaded with a Harrel volumetric powder measure.

T= spread from high to low M= median S= standard deviation

http://thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=94955&stc=1&d=1396615170

This second one a few days later show three groups loaded with a RCBS ChargeMaster that individually measures each load. I was also testing different neck tension. As you can see in two out the three groups the T= spread from high to low is less than 15fpts. So, it is not only possible but it is doable.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=94956&stc=1&d=1396615314

Mike Irwin
April 7, 2014, 07:53 AM
"doesn't it make sense to get the most accurate MV possible for a little bit incremental effort?"

You could always invest in a doppler microwave radar unit.

Probably only cost you a couple of million.

4runnerman
April 7, 2014, 05:30 PM
Mike- It's not a effort to get it. I used a digital scale and make sure all loads weight the same. Not much effort there. Cases are weighted to with in 3 gns-Again no effort.

Most in here have been loading a considerable time longer than me. In my 3 plus years of loading I have learned Accuracy demands Consistency. I don't hunt, I target shoot, so Accuracy is my goal. 25.5 gns is not 25.4 nor 25.6 . Does it take longer to be so picky- Yes it does- Do I care-No.
I am really thinking now of putting one of my other Chronys out at 200 or 300 yards to see what I am getting compared to what I should be getting.

Bart B.
April 7, 2014, 07:51 PM
One thing that really helps muzzle velocity to be consistant is how the primers are seated. If they're not deep enough to compress the priming pellet between cup and anvil, they'll not detonate the same for every firing pin impact.

Another is denting them enough with the firing pin with a strong enough firing pin to do it right. Replace firing pin springs every couple years. Ensure the pin tip sticks out of the bolt face at least .060" but no more than .065".

4runnerman
April 7, 2014, 08:46 PM
Bart-- Funny you should say that, about pin protrusion. I read a article about a lot of Bench Shooters now that are going the opposite direction. I replaced my spring last year. Spent some time doing some research on it. I now have my firing pin back off to 35 thousands and seem to be in a better world. Have you heard anything at all about it?.

Mike Irwin
April 7, 2014, 09:27 PM
Accuracy does demand consistency, but it rarely demands absolute, slavish repeatability in weights.

The most accurate load I ever put together in my .243, a true quarter inch load if I did everything right at the trigger, had a swing of nearly a grain in powder weight - half grain low to half grain high.

The big secret, I found, was tapping the ammo box, case head down, gently on the table for about a minute before shooting.

That compacted the powder to the same degree in the case.

I never sorted my brass by weight, I never sorted my bullets by weight. I did all of the standard prep actions, but didn't go out of my way to micro-debur the case mouth or anything like that.

4runnerman
April 7, 2014, 09:40 PM
Thanks for the tip Mike. I will have to try the tapping thing once or twice and see what hapens. I am always open to new Ideas.

Mike Irwin
April 8, 2014, 04:53 AM
I should have noted that I was using IMR-4064, a long stick powder, and a charge that filled about 85% of the case. It was a load that was near the bottom of the power spectrum, but it was a tack driver.

It wasn't necessary with loads that were near 100% capacity or which were slightly compressed. Those types of loads benefit from being loaded with a drop tube to get the most consistent loading density.

With the load I was using, tapping the box on the bench reoriented the powder and compacted it uniformly.

With a short cut stick powder, or with a ball powder like one of Winchester's, those powders tend to reorient and compact naturally and easily.