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tpcollins
December 11, 2013, 02:19 PM
Whether it's a centerfire, magnum rifle, shotgun, or muzzleloader, I would think the most delicate part of the firearm would be the internals of the scope. If you were bench shooting with front and rear sand bags, the recoil would be absorbed into your shoulder. But if you shoot from something like a Lead Sled that minimizes any recoil to the rear of the weapon that recoil/shock/whatever has to go somewhere so what's going to take the brunt of the recoil?

To me the scope is like an appendage, but if the bases are secure, and the rings are tight and secure - do the internals of the scope then have to absorb the recoil or is it dissipated somewhere else? Thanks.

Dc777
December 11, 2013, 02:31 PM
I've noticed in my vise that although the vise absorbs some recoil it still moves and puts recoil into your shoulder. I had the cheapest bushnell that came on a gun from the factory and the scope never got damaged from a .300 win mag. What kind of scope is in question?

jmr40
December 11, 2013, 02:38 PM
I wouldn't shoot any rifle off a lead sled. They not only break scopes, but stocks too. They might help if shooting many rounds while developing loads, but do nothing to make the SHOOTER a better shot. More negatives than positives. There are better ways to accomplish the same goals.

CarJunkieLS1
December 11, 2013, 02:45 PM
If a scope is damaged by recoil then it wasn't a very good scope...

The recoil on a rifle goes backwards into the butt stock and if it is clamped down to not move I'd have to guess that the clamps or rest would absorb recoil and dissipate it elsewhere. However I just use front and rear sand bags and I do better than a lot of range guys who strap their rifle down...

Brian Pfleuger
December 11, 2013, 02:52 PM
There's a whole lot going on when a gun goes off.

For an extreme example, look what a scope has to survive (http://www.youtube.com/v/s5pVya7eask&rel=1&border=1) to work on a 50BMG.

Recoil can do nasty things to scope and in surprising ways. The dual action "reverse recoil" of BB/air guns can ruin scopes that could withstand conventional firearms for years, particularly older model scopes.

AllenJ
December 11, 2013, 06:29 PM
If one were to put so much weight on the sled as to make is completely stationary during recoil, I would think there would be problems as the rifle/scope is being made to absorb to much of the stress created by the recoil. It would be like dropping the rifle from 'X' number of feet off the ground onto its butt, eventually you're going to find the spot where the rifle/scope can no longer tolerate the stress and something is going to be damaged. To me Lead Sleds were not created to stop recoil all together, but to help tame the recoil.

phil mcwilliam
December 11, 2013, 07:09 PM
Quality scopes and rings are designed to take recoil.
If you own a heavy kicking rifle don't put a cheap scope on it.
I use a lead sled for zeroing rifles, especially if comparing different ammunition. I don't bolt the lead sled to the table, so there is some give when the rifle goes off.
I always recheck zero from various positions after sighting in off the sled & have never noticed a change in zero.
I mainly use my rifles for hunting, so the majority of shooting is not from a lead sled, but in the year I've owned my CZ 375H&H topped with a Leupold VX2, I've gone through over 300 rounds of ammunition, without having to re zero the rifle.
I did once have the screws on the scope rings work loose on my Sako 308, but that was after 20 years of hard hunting & a couple of thousand rounds.

Mobuck
December 11, 2013, 08:25 PM
The scope doesn't "take more recoil" if the rifle is mounted on a lead sled. Actually, there will be less movement using a recoil absorbing rest. What does take extra stress is the stock. I wouldn't want to put 25(or 50)# on the support using a highly grained wood stock. Just seems like a good way to induce a split stock.

sc928porsche
December 11, 2013, 09:03 PM
I find nothing wrong with using a lead sled. However, I use it for sight in and for final group development of reloads. If you are damaging scopes or stocks, then there is something faulty with them to begin with.

TMW89
December 11, 2013, 09:40 PM
It took me about 1 shot from my 12 guage to discombobulate a cheap Barska. It worked fine on my .22 before, but not after.
I ended up putting a Nikon prostaff on that gun, and like magic it holds zero.
The cheaper it is, the more likely it is to get all messed up I think.

Ben Towe
December 12, 2013, 04:13 AM
I never weight a lead sled. Even with a .338, just the sled tames it nicely.

The very first rule of optics is this: Never buy cheap scopes or rings. You are far better off with a cheap rifle and an expensive scope than an expensive rifle and a $30 China's Best scope. The only exception *might* be with rimfires.

Jay24bal
December 12, 2013, 10:41 AM
Wow Brian, that slow-mo video is interesting.

I figured there would be some flex, but I had no idea it was that severe. Granted, that was a 50 BMG and no rifle I own will ever cause that much flex, but it was rather shocking to see the scope flex to the point that the objective lens almost makes contact with the barrel.

To me, it just reinforces the reason behind behind not only buying quality optics, but also the rings and bases. I had a buddy of mine put a beautiful NightForce scope on a rifle recently, using Tasco rings. After dropping $1,800 on a scope, why the heck would anyone scimp on the extra $40 to get quality rings? O well, that is a whole different discussion.

ndking1126
December 12, 2013, 11:20 AM
Mobuck is right.

Brian Pfleuger
December 12, 2013, 12:58 PM
Wow Brian, that slow-mo video is interesting.

I figured there would be some flex, but I had no idea it was that severe. Granted, that was a 50 BMG and no rifle I own will ever cause that much flex, but it was rather shocking to see the scope flex to the point that the objective lens almost makes contact with the barrel.

To me, it just reinforces the reason behind behind not only buying quality optics, but also the rings and bases. I had a buddy of mine put a beautiful NightForce scope on a rifle recently, using Tasco rings. After dropping $1,800 on a scope, why the heck would anyone scimp on the extra $40 to get quality rings? O well, that is a whole different discussion.

Yeah, it's an extreme example and won't be encountered under most circumstances BUT... putting a high recoil gun in a weighted down (or sometimes even not weighted) Lead Sled can do the same thing.

I have a Bushnell Dusk and Dawn 3-9x that I used to have on an 11-87. It handled the recoil fine and my uncle still has an identical scope on his 12ga but neither of them works in a Lead Sled. It doesn't "break" the scope but it might eventually. It won't hold zero, shoots all over the place. Take it out of the Sled, everything is fine.

bamiller
December 12, 2013, 05:49 PM
I've shot several hundred rounds from scoped rifles and shotguns in a Lead Sled Plus with zero scope issues. Statements such as that is why one should take what is read in forums with a grain of salt.

Jim243
December 12, 2013, 06:42 PM
The recticel (cross hairs) is attached to a what I believe is called a gimbal that is moved by the adjustment screws. When recoil is felt, this is what takes the brunt of the recoil. Different scopes are made for different purposes.

If you can't keep a zero on your scope, you have knocked the gimbal or springs out of alignment and you can kiss the scope goodby or have it fixed. (not user fixable)

High Power Rifle, 22 LR and Shotgun Scopes are all different in their construction. Yes, you can use the wrong scope for the wrong firearm, but it will only be for a short period of time.

22 LR are blow back systems and more force is felt on the forward stroke of the bolt than on the recoil. Shotguns have the same issue but at a greater rate.

Use a scope rated for the type of firearm you are using and it will give you years of good use. Red dots can be used on all types, but a more expensive one will last longer.

Jim

reynolds357
December 12, 2013, 10:26 PM
The main thing that tears up good scopes is improper mounting. You want to degrade the performance of a good scope? Then clamp it down in a set of un-lapped rings. Want to really screw it up? Over torque it into a set of un-lapped rings.
Having said that, some scopes are just junk.

reynolds357
December 12, 2013, 10:27 PM
Jim, the only difference between Shotgun and rifle scopes is the distance the paralex is set.

reynolds357
December 12, 2013, 10:32 PM
Whats the point of a lead sled? All they do is teach bad shooting habits and wreak havoc on stocks.

AllenJ
December 13, 2013, 10:17 AM
The point of the Lead Sled is to allow the shooter to have a rock solid rest that helps to absorb recoil. I don't own one but have 2 friends that do, and when I shoot with them I sometimes use theirs. I don't see how it would create bad shooting habits as I'm not even holding the rifle and as for wreaking havoc on stocks, I've not seen that and have rarely heard of it.

Saltydog235
December 13, 2013, 12:01 PM
Years ago I had a Weatherby Vanguard in .300Wby. It wore a cheap Simmons ATEC on top as that was all I could afford. I shot that gun a lot and the scope held up for a while. One day shooting at 300yds I put the first one in the bullseye, the next two weren't even on paper. I picked the rifle up and it sounded like a tin can filled with rocks. Pulled the caps off and things were bulging and broken. That scope took a lot of punishment but when it let go, it let go completely.

Other than a Nikon Buckmaster that was sent back and replaced, then the replacement sent back and replaced shortly after for breakage, the only other issue I've had was a Leupold VXIII that lost its seal. Leupold resealed and purged the scope under warranty and Nikon replaced theirs every time, though I had lost all confidence in their products at that point. Never considered trying to get the Simmons fixed, I just sold the rifle.

All products can and will break with enough abuse and useage, even quality items. If you shoot long enough you'll run into it at one time or another.

B.L.E.
December 14, 2013, 10:49 AM
Air rifles don't recoil so much as they deliver a shock to the scope, sort of like when you hit a baseball with a bat and the ball doesn't strike the bat's sweet spot. It's almost like you're hitting the rifle with a hammer.

bt380
December 14, 2013, 11:26 AM
Contact Leupold and Weaver. Tell them the type of weapon used and ask them for the recommended scope for the type of shooting you do. Ask them for the specific ring/base for the mounting. Pick up a torque screw driver that is capable of the 20-45 range. Follow the torque specs per the packaging that comes with the rings/base. Don't use screw lock when using torque. Watch some Leupold an Weaver scope mounting vids to get the idea of proper mounting techniques. When you speak to the tech reps, have some questions written down ahead of time to ensure you get the answers you want.

reynolds357
December 14, 2013, 07:41 PM
Bt.30, if one is not either using Burris signature rings, or lapping all other type rings, all their efforts are seriously marginalized. You can do everything right, but when you take slight misalignment of the drilling in the action, compound that by slight imperfections in the base and slight imperfections in the ring; all you are doing is putting twisting forces on a scope tube.

Brian Pfleuger
December 14, 2013, 07:56 PM
I've mounted a gagilion scopes without any torque driver, alignment aids or lapping rods.

However, I now own them all and, yes, they're nice to have.

I got them at the same time I needed to install two sets of rings. One DMZ Game Reaper and one set of Warne. Neither were out of alignment and Warne specifically says never to lap their rings. (I know folks will say it doesn't matter, lap them anyway)

So, all I used was the torque driver, so I know the bases and rings are correctly installed.

I've never had any trouble with any rings except the Warne set I had on my Encore Pro Hunter handgun in 7mm-08 topped with a Burris 3-12x40 AO scope. That wasn't really a ring problem. It's well known that few if any rings will hold that kind of recoil with a heavy scope and only two rings.

reynolds357
December 15, 2013, 12:27 AM
Warne is not an ideal design for a precision application. Its Brute and rugged, but not extremely precision. They present some re-alignment issues when removed and put back onto a rifle.