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railer12
December 2, 2013, 09:59 PM
I've been offered a Remington 700,22in. ss barrel, grey laminate stock, leupold vx11,in like new condition,750$ cash.Not sure what model this rifle is.Any help with the model and comments on the gun. Good deal?

Prof Young
December 2, 2013, 11:38 PM
There is a huge controversy over the trigger and safety problems with this gun. Not sure if all models are affected, and what vintage is involved, but you should check it out before you buy. Many posts about it in the past on this forum.
Live well, be safe
Prof Young

skywag
December 3, 2013, 12:10 AM
I'd put a "Gentry" safety on it.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v498/kgruber/CIMG3889.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/kgruber/media/CIMG3889.jpg.html)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewwCDikXjCU

Ridgerunner665
December 3, 2013, 01:26 AM
Remington should by the rights to that safety and make it standard equipment...

Saltydog235
December 3, 2013, 07:51 AM
Remington should just start buying their trigger/safety assemblies from Timney and be done with it.

AllenJ
December 3, 2013, 09:08 AM
Without knowing the exact model, scope power and what it is chambered for I don't feel comfortable making a recommendation on if it is a good deal or not. Any chance you could post some pictures of it?

Dc777
December 3, 2013, 09:29 AM
Pictures would help out bud.

myfriendis410
December 3, 2013, 10:13 AM
It's a model 700 LSS (laminate stainless steel) in all probability. It was chambered in quite a number of calibers. I own one in .300 win mag and it's a great shooter.

Sure there was a controversy about the Walker trigger but remember that over 5 MILLION rifles were sold! The trigger and safety is quite good, and if it bothers you a replacement trigger is easy to install.

The barrel steel that was used early on (according to my gunsmith) was responsible for poor accuracy in some guns. Get a target, or some kind of accuracy guarantee from the seller. I found that mine needed some light gunsmith work--glass bedding and floating--and it produces fine accuracy. It's my go-to rifle when I absolutely positively have to kill something.

It's a great rifle and an excellent price. IIRC I ordered mine through Bud's and paid $650 or so back in 2006.

jmr40
December 3, 2013, 10:17 AM
The factory safety is just fine. The triggers on guns made 1946-2006 can in rare situations release the sear with no trigger pull. When this happens the safety is the only thing holding the firing pin back. As soon as the safety is moved to the fire position the gun fires with no trigger pull. Lots of folks confuse this with a safety failure. It is in the trigger.

These debates usually get locked. But I will emphasize this is very rare, but also very real. I've actually had a gun do this and that alone would not stop me from buying a 700 if I liked it.

Remington should just start buying their trigger/safety assemblies from Timney and be done with it.

A redesign was proposed in 1948, Remington finally made the change in late 2006. Newer guns are not affected.

Without seeing the gun $750 is probably too much. A Leupold VX-II is several generations old and not worth that much money. A brand new VX-1 is a far better scope and sells for around $200. More info is really needed to give a fair judge of value.

emcon5
December 3, 2013, 11:17 AM
There is a huge controversy over the trigger and safety problems with this gun. Not sure if all models are affected, and what vintage is involved, but you should check it out before you buy. Many posts about it in the past on this forum.

Read these threads:
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=516968

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=498729

A redesign was proposed in 1948, Remington finally made the change in late 2006. Newer guns are not affected.

We will just say jmr40 and I disagree on pretty much everything on this subject. Not going to bring it up here, it was covered extensively in those 2 threads.

I am not saying there isn't a problem, I am just saying that the evidence provided as "proof" is suspect at best, and downright misleading in some cases.

railer12
December 3, 2013, 12:50 PM
A picture would be nice but I don't have the gun in my possession. It's calibered in .308 and has to be fairly new because it has the extra thick recoil pad.
As far as the safety, not a issue with me. I had a Remington 721 in .270, with a early weaver scope with steth mounts. It could only be unloaded while in the fire position. My grandfather used it, my dad used it,I used it,and now my son uses it, never a problem.
Thanks for the replies.

Saltydog235
December 3, 2013, 04:07 PM
Remington finally made the change in late 2006. Newer guns are not affected.

Not disputing or commenting on the new or old triggers in the guns other than to say that owning both variations, they are trash. I replaced all my Remington 700 triggers, new and old, with Timney not based on the hoopla generated by the media but because they are just terrible. Shooting all of them became much more enjoyable, accuracy increased and consistency was there with a quality trigger.

CharlieDeltaJuliet
December 3, 2013, 08:49 PM
The R700 is one of my favorite rifles. I would not let any trigger get in the way of buying it. They are notorious for bubba trigger jobs causing problems too. The new X- Mark triggers are decent triggers. I put a Timney in almost every R700 I get. I currently have a L/A 300 WM with side bolt release and Timney trigger. It is bedded in a Manners T-5A, with Harris BRM-S bipod with Kreiger SS 24" barrel and custom made Muzzle brake. It is topped with a Near scope base and NightForce ATACR and honestly is a tack driver. I shoot a 220gr SMK with 77.5 gr of H1000. At 300 yards it shoots under 1". When my gun smith built it he spared no expense. I have never owned a better shooting rifle. He built it for another friend that is deployed, but didn't get to make it home yet, so I agreed to buy it. I just personally prefer a Remington 700 over other bolt guns. I have owned almost every brand name and while they good rifles, the 700 is just my favorite.


I wouldn't be afraid of a 700 just because of the trigger. If nothing else put a Timney or other brand in it...

jmr40
December 4, 2013, 10:42 AM
There is some concern that the new post 2006 trigger is not as smooth and crisp as the old trigger, but the trigger connector has been removed from the newer trigger. This un-necessary part is the reason for the 1946-2006 trigger failures. Only Remington ever used this design.

With all other triggers the trigger is directly connected to the sear. On the old Remingtons there was a stamped metal piece called a connector in between the 2. When you pull the trigger the connector slides in a grove and pushes on the sear until it releases. In rare cases this un-necessary part could fail and release the sear without pulling the trigger.

Here is an explanation of what happens

http://www.rifflawfirm.com/areas/pdf/remington4.pdf

Mike Walker, the engineer who designed the gun and trigger discovered the problem in 1946. In 1948 Mr. Walker redesigned the trigger and proposed a change. Remington management declined citing an extra 5 cents per gun cost even though they knew this defect was possible.

An internal memo from 1947

http://fm.cnbc.com/applications/cnbc.com/resources/editorialfiles/2012/05/03/2226704_Rem_Doc_03.pdf

Proposed changes in 1948

http://fm.cnbc.com/applications/cnbc.com/resources/editorialfiles/2012/05/03/2226710_Rem_Doc_09.pdf

No one can take an honest look at the evidence and not conclude that the design is flawed. That the design works right 99% of the time does not mean it doesn't fail. With 5 million rifles out there even a 99.9% success rate still leaves 5000 rifles that could fail. Numbers I've seen indicate that Remington has received somewhere between 5000-10,000 complaints from consumers over the years that their rifles have done this. Remington used to keep records on such things, but "cleaned out" all of their files in the 1980's. There is one document that survived. If this were a typical year of having 133 rifles returned to the factory then 133 X 60 years = 7900 returns.

http://fm.cnbc.com/applications/cnbc.com/resources/editorialfiles/2012/05/03/2226709_Rem_Doc_08.pdf

Remington has been sued over 100 times for this. No other gun company is being accused of this defect. In the 1980s Remington did redesign the guns safety making it possible to unload the chamber while the gun was still on "safe". This did not address the problem, but did reduce the risk considerably.

They are notorious for bubba trigger jobs causing problems

Imporperly modified triggers will fail with any gun. But if the trigger connector fails it will fail regardless of trigger pull. This is a problem unique only to Remingtons. There have been numerous documented cases of perfectly clean, unmodified rifles firing with no trigger pull. This was the case with my rifle, Remington technicians were able to reproduce this in the factory. Here is an article from a 1968 Consumer Reports write up where a brand new rifle did it. Go to page 2 for the Remington story

http://fm.cnbc.com/applications/cnbc.com/resources/editorialfiles/2012/05/03/2226713_Rem_Doc_13.pdf

After all that, I'd still not let the trigger concern keep me from buying a Remington if I wanted one. The problem is rare. But the problem is still there and any of these guns COULD do this at any time. The fact that you've owned the gun for 40 years means nothing. My rifle was 30 years old before it did this. It dropped the firing pin 3-4 times with no trigger pull all on the same day and has not repeated the problem again in about 15 years. Most guns will NEVER do this. But If I owned any 1946-2006 made Remington bolt rifle I'd use extreme caution with a loaded chamber. Especially when the safety in the "fire" position.

I'm not out to ruin Remington. Wish the company well. The current problems were caused by management in the 1940's and current management is doing what they can to make the best of a bad situation they were handed. My only objective is to educate people of the real facts and hopefully prevent an accident. Too many die hard Remington fans want to bury their heads in the sand and pretend there is no problem. That is what will get someone hurt. Knowing there is a potential problem and addressing it properly is the wise thing to do.

emcon5
December 4, 2013, 03:50 PM
Here we go again. I posted links to the other threads to try and avoid a further thread derail, nothing you are posting here is anything that has not been covered in the other links.

Mike Walker, the engineer who designed the gun and trigger discovered the problem in 1946. In 1948 Mr. Walker redesigned the trigger and proposed a change. Remington management declined citing an extra 5 cents per gun cost even though they knew this defect was possible.

An internal memo from 1947

http://fm.cnbc.com/applications/cnbc.com/resources/editorialfiles/2012/05/03/2226704_Rem_Doc_03.pdf

That says there is a problem if the parts "Are not within design limits" If the parts are out of spec, it does not mean that the design is defective.

Also, the 5ยข unit cost is a red herring. That may be how much it cost additionally in materials per unit, but that does not mean it is the actual cost to make the change. Stopping production and retooling can be very expensive.

Proposed changes in 1948

http://fm.cnbc.com/applications/cnbc.com/resources/editorialfiles/2012/05/03/2226710_Rem_Doc_09.pdf

I can hardly read that, but OK. I agree, a trigger block on the safety is a good idea. It does not automatically mean that a safety without a trigger block is defective.

That being said, the old 700 safety design that locked the bolt was stupid.


No one can take an honest look at the evidence and not conclude that the design is flawed. Well,if there was actual evidence I might agree with you. But what has been presented as "evidence" really isn't. I am sorry if I don't buy a theory of a professional "expert" witness for ambulance chasers, nor the views of a news network with a history of bias. Especially when the "expert" admits under oath that he has never actually got a Remington 700 to do what he claims they do.

That the design works right 99% of the time does not mean it doesn't fail. Anything mechanical can fail The fact that something fails is not automatic proof of a flawed design.

With 5 million rifles out there even a 99.9% success rate still leaves 5000 rifles that could fail. Numbers I've seen indicate that Remington has received somewhere between 5000-10,000 complaints from consumers over the years that their rifles have done this. Remington used to keep records on such things, but "cleaned out" all of their files in the 1980's. There is one document that survived. If this were a typical year of having 133 rifles returned to the factory then 133 X 60 years = 7900 returns.

http://fm.cnbc.com/applications/cnbc.com/resources/editorialfiles/2012/05/03/2226709_Rem_Doc_08.pdfOf which only 44 were verified. 89 of the rifles they found no problem. Many of the listed problems are also not what all the lawsuits were about.

Remington has been sued over 100 times for this. No other gun company is being accused of this defect. Hey, jump on the sue Remington bandwagon! They will settle, they ALWAYS settle, because it is cheaper than going to court, even if they win!

In the 1980s Remington did redesign the guns safety making it possible to unload the chamber while the gun was still on "safe". This did not address the problem, but did reduce the risk considerably.

The old 700 safety design that locked the bolt was stupid.

There have been a couple fatalities attributed by the ambulance chasers to these "defective" triggers. The fact remains, that none of them would have had so much as a scratch, had the gun owners been practicing simple, basic safe gun handling.


RULE 1
ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED
The only exception to this occurs when one has a weapon in his hands and he has personally unloaded it for checking. As soon as he puts it down, Rule 1 applies again.

RULE 2
NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT PREPARED TO DESTROY
You may not wish to destroy it, but you must be clear in your mind that you are quite ready to if you let that muzzle cover the target. To allow a firearm to point at another human being is a deadly threat, and should always be treated as such.

RULE 3
KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER TIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET
This we call the Golden Rule because its violation is responsible for about 80 percent of the firearms disasters we read about.

RULE 4
BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET
You never shoot at anything until you have positively identified it. You never fire at a shadow, or a sound, or a suspected presence. You shoot only when you know absolutely what you are shooting at and what is beyond it.

Now lets let this drop. Everything has been covered in previous threads, two of which I linked above. We don't need to get another thread locked.

Jack O'Conner
December 4, 2013, 05:10 PM
Remington 700 is a very well engineered rifle and widely popular. That being said, I've never owned one; I'm a lever fan.

Jack

Ridgerunner665
December 4, 2013, 05:56 PM
Well...since were already off track..

The 700 safety may or may not be OK...but I'd still much rather have a safety that blocks or disconnects the firing pin instead of just blocking the trigger.

wncchester
December 4, 2013, 09:40 PM
"I'd still much rather have a safety that blocks or disconnects the firing pin instead of just blocking the trigger."

That's exactly what the Walker safety does.

The "problem" with the trigger's connector is many owners use the wrong oils in it and when the oil dries the gummy mess prevents the loosely held connector from properly following the trigger. Cock the pin, set the safety and the pin is blocked by the connector BUT if/when the connector is held off the trigger by goo, when the safety is released the pin falls. Spray clean inside the trigger housing maybe once every year or two and use a thin, non-gumming gun oil on it and the thing will work great. (WD-40 gums awful!)

The Walker trigger is an excellant HUNTING rifle trigger, it is NOT a target trigger and gomers who try to adjust it to be so are courting disaster.

And this IS a 700 advice thread.

skywag
December 4, 2013, 11:51 PM
I'd rather install the "Gentry" safety. Anything that makes a Model 700 look more like a Model 70 is a good thing.

silvrjeepr
December 7, 2013, 12:22 AM
Buy the darn rifle. It's not an ancient model. It's close to 2006-2009 vintage judging from your description. The price is a tad high though not unreasonably so.


If you don't want it, pm me and I'll buy it.

handlerer2
December 7, 2013, 01:49 AM
Well, this may not be a popular comment, but $750 is, IMO, grossly overpriced for a rifle made from drilled out bar stock, with a fused bolt, washered recoil lug, and synthetic stock.

My first centerfire magnum rifle was a MDL 700, 7MAG, that I bought in 1976. I was satisfied with it. I paid $110 dollars in a Gibson's going out of business sale. I'm not saying that they are useless or inferior, just over priced for what they are. They, the economy model, shouldn't cost any more than a Ruger American or Marlin X.

For less money you can buy a Howa/Vanguard, or Thompson Venture. These rifles receivers are machined from a solid billet, have integral recoil lugs, and a solid bolt machined handle and all from solid stock.

I'm not really bashing MDL 700's or Tikkas. They are perfectly serviceable and capable of excellent accuracy and reliability. I just feel that they are overpriced.

I have owned MDL 700s and was content with them. I sold them though, and now only own a few premium rifles ie: Weatherbys, Cooper and Rugers. I might buy it if he came down $200 though.

Mike / Tx
December 7, 2013, 08:05 AM
That price IMO is a bit high as noted by others.

Personally I have close to a dozen Rem 700 rifles with about 1/3 of them being custom built using the 700 actions.

I have not in 20years had any issues with them what so ever, however I have been there when the issue presented above has shown it's ugly head twice. Both times I was within 10' of the muzzle blast and it was not a nice experience either time.

That said all of the rifles I have based on the 700 action are tack drivers. I would have no issue picking up another one, and in fact am considering one at this time for a project rifle. It is a brand new one priced below $400. It isn't a fancy one by any stretch but I am simply looking at using the long action for the project anyway.

I use mine for hunting and as such if needed I usually also will glass bed and free float the barrels. I simply don't like the little pressure point that Remington insist on putting in their factory stocks. I work up my own loads for each and when done they usually deliver 1/2 or less MOA accuracy out to 300yds or better.

While checking the zero on it, this is a fouling shot after cleaning (low intentionally), and a two shot group I fired at 250yds with my 25yr old 25-06. It is a stock rifle with the only change made by me installing a Fajen laminate stock. It isn't even glass bedded. We had a stiff crosswind and the rifle is actually zeroed at 200yds. (The 250yrd was simply where we had the target set up to zero my 7mm STW at.)
http://thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=93233&stc=1&d=1386422059

Most do not feel this is representative of what the rifle will do, but it has been doing this for the whole time I have had it, so I feel no need to waste ammo or barrel on more shots just to satisfy someone else. If it doesn't group like this with the loads I usually shoot I start looking at the scope not the rifle. All of the 700's I have will hold this level of accuracy with my handloads. I can't say how they shoot with factory as I don't use it.

TenRing
December 7, 2013, 08:59 AM
I am a Remington fan, my favorite deer rifle being a 700 BDL DM in .300 Win. Mag. It is
the most accurate rifle that I have ever used - very impressive as a 200+ yard gun.

However, I have never liked the design of the safety. I have never had any problems with it in 13 years of use but I viewed it as a low point of an otherwise great rifle. I'm going to investigate the Gentry safety and I appreciate all of the information in this and earlier threads.

To the original question, $750 is a high price for that rifle and scope setup. Taken separately, I would say $500 for the rifle and $100 for the scope, so about $600 for the package.

Edit: Just realized the rifle is laminate.

reynolds357
December 7, 2013, 02:55 PM
Why does everyone give the Remington 700 trigger such a bad rep? Every firearms manufacturer with a short amount of creep on very rare occasion has discharges when the safety is flipped off. I think Remington has more of them because they have sold more rifles than anyone else. I personally have never had it happen on a Remington 700. I have personally had it happen one time each on three different Winchester Mod 70's. The 700 has had them happen, but its by no means a problem unique to the 700. I killed a nice buck with my .264 Win a few years ago when I flipped the safety off. Never had to pull the trigger. Sear gets out of adjustment and stuff happens. Rifles should be maintained. Most people who had the malfunctions with the 700 have a trigger group that was modified or neglected. Its not a perfect design, but its no more dangerous than most of the other designs of that era.