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View Full Version : Cartridge/Chambering vs Caliber


FALPhil
December 1, 2013, 01:50 AM
Per Peetzakiller's suggestion (http://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5701202&postcount=58).
Cheapshooter wrote:
Just one example, from one gun manufacturer, but they all do it in with their specs on a rifle. As well as most reviews you read in magazines when they list the specs.
Model Options:
Cat. # Mod. # Caliber Cap. Barrel
Length Overall
Length Weight Twist Sug.
Retail Spec
Sheet
AMERICAN 6905 22-250 Rem 4 22.00" 42.00" 6.38 lbs. 1:10" RH $449.00
AMERICAN 6904 243 Win 4 22.00" 42.00" 6.25 lbs. 1:9" RH $449.00
AMERICAN 6902 270 Win 4 22.00" 42.50" 6.25 lbs. 1:10" RH $449.00
AMERICAN 6906 7mm-08 Rem 4 22.00" 42.00" 6.38 lbs. 1:9.5" RH $449.00
AMERICAN 6901 30-06 Sprg 4 22.00" 42.50" 6.25 lbs. 1:10" RH $449.00
AMERICAN 6903 308 Win

Funny you should pick the absolute worst firearms manufacturer when it comes to documentation lexicon. It kind of proves my point in a backhanded way. However, I am willing to bet that other manufacturers use this particular malapropism. That makes it neither correct nor right. This phenomenon is most probably a symptom of our goverment-run education system, along with apostrophes in plurals and improper use of pronouns with respect to the antecedent's person and number.

As a nation, I fear the US is truly dumbed down.

If I am making too big of a deal over this, I will agree to pander to the masses. If the larger group desires to avoid excellence in language, I see no value in promoting linguistic class warfare.

Art Eatman
December 1, 2013, 11:02 AM
So the heading is "caliber" but the listing is actually a cartridge--and in the example, the calibers are given. The reality is, you get a twofer.

Seems to me that if one can understand for what cartridge a rifle is chambered, a buyer has learned what is needed to be known.

The issue is one of understanding, regardless of the quality of one's education. A seller is in the business of selling, not educating.

And, in the grand scheme of life itsownself, worrying about it is pretty much like picking flypoop out of pepper: Not remunerative.

Cheapshooter
December 1, 2013, 12:11 PM
Ruger was just the one I googled first. here is Remington's

Compare
Full Specs Caliber Average Weight (lbs.) Barrel Length (in.) Overall Length (in.) Twist Status Note Order #
270 Win. 7.2 22" 42 5/8" 10" New 85834
30-06 Springfield 7.2 22" 42 5/8" 10" New 85836
308 Win 7 22" 42 1/8" 10" New 85837
7mm Remington Mag
Marlin's chart being too long to post I'll just say they do list caliber, and under long action, 30-06, and short action, 308 Win.
I'm sure there are many, many more examples of caliber being used as a description of a cartridge in not only manufacturers specifications, but also most, if not all retail store advertising, and magazine articles.
The bottom line, if someone asks "what caliber is it?", 30-06, 308 Winchester, 300 Magnum, one of many, 30-30, 300 Savage, and any other cartridge that shoots a .308 diameter projectile is perfectly understood as it's caliber.

tahunua001
December 1, 2013, 01:19 PM
my ADHD must be kicking my arse today but I am completely lost. what is this all about?

Cheapshooter
December 1, 2013, 01:33 PM
This is a carry over from the thread about this year's favorite deer calber. When someone mentioned 30-06 and 308, and It was posted that they are the same caliber (bullet diameter), but different cartridges.
Meaningless detail because "caliber" is universally accepted to mean "cartridge" when referring to the clambering of a firearm. Or at least like clip/magazine, has been until internet snobbery came about. http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=536877

tahunua001
December 1, 2013, 02:05 PM
ok then.
here's my take.
1. the world is full of morons.
2. the world is full of lazy people looking for easy money.
3. sometimes 1 and 2 intersect.
4. when 3 happens they look for ways of getting easy money from people that have lots of it.
5. gun companies have lots of money.
6. 4 recognizes 5 and blows up a 30-06 shooting 308 because the barrel is stamped 30 caliber or other means that could somehow be misconstrued.
7. number 5 likes to keep it's money and not give it to 3.
8. lawyers know how to keep 5 from giving money to 3.
9. 5s website is written by 8 so that there is no possible way that 3 could argue that they didn't know better and 5 gets to keep most of it's money and 8 gets a portion of what 3 would be getting otherwise.


also there is reloading confusion.
1. sometimes 7.62x39 chambered rifles actually have 308 bores instead of 311 bores.
2. reloading manuals generally recommend 310-311 bullets for rifles chambered in 7.62x39
3. 7.7 jap is a 310 bore while 7.62x54R is also a 310 bore
4. 308 win(and 7.62x51) is a 308 bore as is 30-06
5. 303 brit must be smaller than 308 but what is this? 303 has a 310 bore
6. 7.5 french and swiss must be smaller than 308 but what is this? 308 bores.
7. there is so much confusion that gun companies can not expect everyone to get it right since nobody in america reads anymore besides what's on the back of the cereal box.
8. therefore all gun companies now put in their owners manuals not to shoot reloaded ammunition out of their guns, effectively absolving them of any responsibility for Gomer's gun exploding because he placed a overcharged 7.7 jap cartridge into his 30-06 even though both are considered 30 cals.

Cheapshooter
December 1, 2013, 02:29 PM
Care to add 410 GUAGE :eek: LOL!

FALPhil
December 1, 2013, 03:59 PM
Cheapshooter wrote:
Meaningless detail because "caliber" is universally accepted to mean "cartridge" when referring to the clambering of a firearm.

I beg to differ. It is not a meaningless detail, because of the simple fact that words have meaning. "Caliber" is not universally accepted to mean "chambering" either. It might be in certain circles, but there are circles where it does not; I happen to live in one of those.

So, you can assert what you please, but that does not make it true.

The bigger issue is, why not be precise in our language? We are precise when we measure targets, we are precise when we handload, we are precise when we make distictions between clips and magazines. Why do we throw all that out the window when we refer to how a rifle is chambered? Is it laziness? Is it ignorance? A combination? I am really trying to understand the resistance to using the correct terminology, especially when there is no compelling reason.

Cheapshooter
December 1, 2013, 04:19 PM
I am really trying to understand the resistance to using the correct terminology, especially when there is no compelling reason.

Probably because it's been that way from the beginning of self contained cartridges. Or "bullets" as most average shooters go to Wallyworld to buy for their guns.

Because the vast majority of gun owners are not as precise as the few. Try a little experament in the "real world" Ask shooters or gun owners away from your precise circle about their "caliber" of choice, and you will see that caliber, and cartridge are recognised as the same thing. Try asking about clips as well. Welcome to the the world of the average gun owner.

Hawg
December 1, 2013, 04:21 PM
Some of us just call things the way the our elders called them when we were growing up. So to me whatever a gun is chambered for is (as far as I'm concerned) its caliber and yes I call a magazine a clip more often than not. Its not that we don't know any better, we just don't give a dead rats ass. Call it whatever you want, we'll know the difference but don't get your panties in a wad cuz we don't conform to your snobbish standards.:D

Cheapshooter
December 1, 2013, 04:25 PM
Some of us just call things the way the our elders called them when we were growing up.

Exactly! my point in the previous post! :D

Grundy53
December 1, 2013, 04:48 PM
Some of us just call things the way the our elders called them when we were growing up. So to me whatever a gun is chambered for is (as far as I'm concerned) its caliber and yes I call a magazine a clip more often than not. Its not that we don't know any better, we just don't give a dead rats ass. Call it whatever you want, we'll know the difference but don't get your panties in a wad cuz we don't conform to your snobbish standards.:D

Truth

Jo6pak
December 1, 2013, 04:58 PM
In general use, these terms are interchangeable.
When I ask someone what caliber Glock they shoot, and they answer "a .45" I can be 99% sure that they are not talking about .45 Colt.

If we are speaking technically, then there may be a need for picking nits.
A reloader better be positive that he is indeed looking at the loading for .303 British and not .303 Savage.

But in usual conversation there is no need to be so precise.

I see threads of this type from time to time. Whether it is someone who dislikes the term "scattergun" in reference to shotguns. Or a member lamenting the revolver being referred to as a "wheelgun"
Frankly, it all tends to smell of snobbery.

FALPhil
December 1, 2013, 05:00 PM
Hawg Haggen wrote:
Call it whatever you want, we'll know the difference but don't get your panties in a wad cuz we don't conform to your snobbish standards.
Ok, I guess I will drop it, and go shopping for some clips for my 1911. ;)

Doug S
December 1, 2013, 05:04 PM
I get a little weary of some people who seem to want to show off their "intelligence" (and eventually their credentials) by talking smart and arguing non-essentials, so I was going to ignore this...BUT for the sake of conversation I will only add that sometimes there are cultural considerations within a group. For instance, if I were to say, Pass me a "Crescent" wrench, or a "Kleenex", or a "Buck" knife... I'm pretty sure the dominant culture would have no difficulty identifying and passing the proper item. In fact (in the world of guns), I could see the exclusive use of proper names, etc., as being somewhat more confusing to the casual gun enthusiast, because people have learned to speak in the vernacular (not like a robot or a textbook). Now if I were writing a formal paper, or presentation of some sort, then I'd be concerned with proper nomenclature, etc.

So with that said, this poor boy's opinion is that for a bunch of guys and gals talking on a gun forum, I think we are doing okay (and that we can get over ourselves long enough to enjoy a casual, in-house chat about something as simple and enjoyable as our favorite gun and ammo choice for hunting season), and to be honest, I'm really kinda sorry I gave the argument any kind of credibility by even responding.

Oh, and please forgive me for any spelling errors, or wrong punctuation above.:rolleyes:

tahunua001
December 1, 2013, 08:08 PM
my take,
incorrect terminology is not something that you should get all bent out of shape over unless the other party is trying to sound technical and naming the wrong parts.

for example. I got into quite the argument over what areas of US model 1917s(not P17, not US Enfield) were painted red by british forced in WWII to denote 30-06 chambering rather than 303 brit. the other party insisted time and again that the paint was on the buttstock while another member and I instisted that it was near the muzzle, turns out we were both talking about the same location but he referred to the entire stock as the buttstock rather than differentiating between foregrip, handguard and buttstock. this is where incorrect terminology should be corrected.

when my brother in law asks for a clip I will heckle him and pretend to hand him a clip of ammo rather than the magazine he really wanted but I know full well what someone is talking about when they say clip or mag. there is no reason at all that I should feel the need to lecture my brother in law over the differences between a clip and a magazine every time we go shooting together.

same with calibers. nine times out of ten when someone asks me what caliber a gun is they are referring to the cartridge I do not lecture them on the difference between caliber and cartridge. with manufacturers I can understand having to differentiate to prevent bubba from finding a loophole for a gratuitous lawsuit but I doubt that they really have to tell people the difference between caliber and cartridge.

BigD_in_FL
December 1, 2013, 09:15 PM
This is a carry over from the thread about this year's favorite deer calber. When someone mentioned 30-06 and 308, and It was posted that they are the same caliber (bullet diameter), but different cartridges.
Meaningless detail because "caliber" is universally accepted to mean "cartridge" when referring to the clambering of a firearm.

They ARE different cartridges - plain and simple, and NO it is NOT UNIVERSALLY accepted - just as folks from other countries, so stop spreading your view as universally accepted truth because it is not. and like your mag/clip analogy, that too is incorrect and fostering ignorance is not something we as gun owners need to do. If we cannot be counted on to be correct and use correct terminology, how can we slam the media when they call an AR a fully automatic assault rifle?

It is time for us to stop being inaccurate and time to start using the correct terminology if we are to be taken seriously

OkieCruffler
December 1, 2013, 09:49 PM
Is it laziness? Is it ignorance? A combination?

Could it be that some of us have bigger things to worry about? Perhaps we weren't potty trained as quickly as others.

Art Eatman
December 1, 2013, 09:55 PM
BigD, there is quite a difference between your AR/M example and clip vs. mag.

The first is a significant mechanical difference for two different items. Clip vs. mag is merely nomenclature--and most folks readily know the difference.

emcon5
December 1, 2013, 10:14 PM
You guys don't know what you are talking about. Everyone knows "caliber" is the length of the barrel in multiples of the bore diameter.;)

For example, the 1903 Springfield is 78 Caliber, and the K98k is 74 caliber.

:D

FALPhil
December 1, 2013, 11:09 PM
Doug S wrote: ...(and that we can get over ourselves long enough to enjoy a casual, in-house chat about something as simple and enjoyable as our favorite gun and ammo choice for hunting season), and to be honest, I'm really kinda sorry I gave the argument any kind of credibility by even responding.

OkieCruffler wrote: Perhaps we weren't potty trained as quickly as others.

Gentlemen, remove the chips from your shoulders. I made no attempt to insult you, and I do not appreciate what borders on ad hominem. Having a casual, in house conversation about correct use of terminology is every bit as valuable as a discussion about gun and ammo choice for hunting season.

That being said, it is probably time to ask the mods to lock this thread down, since it is obviously causing an emotional reaction among some of the members.

I apologize; it was not my intent to irritate anyone.

Cheapshooter
December 1, 2013, 11:42 PM
Maybe if we go back to the post in the other thread that started the whole discusdion It would be better understood.
Only calibers I've ever used for deer hunting are 30-06 and .243 but this year I'm trying out the .308.
Can anybody honestly say that they don't understand what was meant? Or that the poster didn't know the two chamberings were different cartridges of te same caliber?
No, he just used common language for two centerfire cartridges that has been in use since the invention of self contained cartridges.

RJay
December 1, 2013, 11:54 PM
I read all of the above posts and said to myself " Self, much ado about nutten " . So to end the day, I will go pour two fingers of Black Jack Daniels over some ice, a little branch water and see if that gets rid of the headache that came on while reading the above :cool:

FrankenMauser
December 2, 2013, 12:33 AM
As long as everyone is arguing....
I'd like to point out that several foreign cartridges are being described as having .310 bores, when that is not the case (in more ways than one).

7.62x54R, .303 British, 7.7x58mm, etc. have .300-.304" bore diameters and .3105" to .312" nominal groove diameters. In most cases, the allowable groove diameter was .309" to .314", during manufacture; and the bore diameter was .300-.306". (And some designs/countries/cartridges had tighter tolerances than others.)

Doug S
December 2, 2013, 12:57 AM
Quote:
Doug S wrote: ...(and that we can get over ourselves long enough to enjoy a casual, in-house chat about something as simple and enjoyable as our favorite gun and ammo choice for hunting season), and to be honest, I'm really kinda sorry I gave the argument any kind of credibility by even responding.

Quote:
OkieCruffler wrote: Perhaps we weren't potty trained as quickly as others.

FALPhil said, Gentlemen, remove the chips from your shoulders. I made no attempt to insult you, and I do not appreciate what borders on ad hominem. Having a casual, in house conversation about correct use of terminology is every bit as valuable as a discussion about gun and ammo choice for hunting season.

That being said, it is probably time to ask the mods to lock this thread down, since it is obviously causing an emotional reaction among some of the members.

I apologize; it was not my intent to irritate anyone.

I think I just figured out what I disliked most about your earlier comments...as you continue to argue semantics while ignoring context. Seems like a contradiction of sorts. Interesting, but seriously I mean no offense to you. Just having a little fun since you sound like such a stickler.

Panfisher
December 2, 2013, 08:26 AM
Hmm all very interesting but, does my 1911 have a slide stop or a slide release?

Art Eatman
December 2, 2013, 10:07 AM
Closed per OP request.