S&W Break Top 38, Black powder cartridges?

[andywren]

S&W Break Top 38, Black powder cartridges?
I need some help. I have my Grandfather's revolver. It is a S&W 38, five shot break top revolver. The last Pat. date is April 9, 1885 and the serial number is 438845. The cylinder is 1 3/16 inches long and the barrel is 4". The barrel is stamped 38 S&W CTG 1.

Does anyone know what black powder amo I should have for it and where to purchase it?

Thanks

[10851Man]

Hello,

Your pistol is chambered for .38 S&W. The difference between .38 S&W and .38 Spl is length of the case and the charge.

.38 S&W is a black powder cartridge. As I recall, you can also shoot .38 Short Colt in this pistol.

Your pistol sounds like a 'third model' double action, of which about 216,300 were made between 1895-1909. The serial number range stretched from 322,701 to 539,000.

Sounds like you have a nice pistol there...

[BirchOrr]

Need to see this beauty!

:D

Birch

[Newton24b]

all it can use is .38 smith and wesson cartridges. low powered smokeless ammo can be found online, but its EXPENSIVE. Black powder cartridges can be found, but are EXPENSIVE.

reloading for it is alright except.

the metal is old. the springs are not the best in the world. do you really want to shoot something that may require you to spend a few hundred dollars to purchase an identical gun to get a single replacement part you break the first time you shoot it?

[Bishop Creek]

I have an old 1890s Iver Johnson that shoots .38 S&W. I reload but sometimes order loaded black powder cartridges from Buffalo Arms:

http://www.buffaloarms.com/38_Smith_Wesson_Ammo_it-831095.aspx?CAT=4442

[TomADC]

I'm surprised there isn't any load data for it using Trail Boss.

[Newton24b]

hodgdon has given out very generic loading advice for trailboss. contact them for it. however, it is a standard feeling world wide that a black powder dated frame should not be used with any kind of smokeless.

[44 Dave]

Got some 38 S&W last summer to shoot old Colt, yes EXPENSIVE and was told they are "seasonal", they only run a batch once in a while. With the amo. shortage, wonder when the next season may come.

[McShooty]

Midway lists 10X Cowboy ammo in .38 S&W. I am not sure that is a black powder load but it would be light and would probably work in an old S&W, but of course, it is out of stock with no back order. Find a friend with .38 S&W dies, then get some Pyrodex "P" or some FFFg black powder and some soft bullets. Bullets for .38 Sp will work, and MagTech sells 146 gr bullets for the .38 S&W.

[Mike Irwin]

"our pistol is chambered for .38 S&W. The difference between .38 S&W and .38 Spl is length of the case and the charge."

No, there are more differences than that.

The .38 S&W also has a case that is larger in diameter (it may or may not chamber in a .38 Special handgun, depending on how loose the chambers are), and bullet diameter, which is .361+- in the .38 S&W.

The .38 S&W was a one-off cartridge. It was a new development and it was never developed any farther.

The .38 Special was derived from the .38 Short and Long Colt cartridges.

[Jim Watson]

S&W smith David Chicoine recommends not shooting smokeless in guns earlier than the 1907-1909 era. Sorry, I don't have the book with me to see what model yours is.

That said, .38 S&W is not now loaded any hotter now than it ever was and a few will not blow up an antique. At least they haven't mine.

The 1880s .38s are very handy little guns, the then equivalent of a Chief's Special. They are a lot more packable than a big old horse killing .45.

[Mike Irwin]

The problem is that black powder and smokeless powder have very different pressure curves, and the pressure curve generated by smokeless powder can lead to GREATLY increase wear and tear on guns that were often made of soft iron.

[andywren]

Thanks to all who replied,
The information is a great help! I don't plan to shoot this revolver, just wanted amo in case of EMERGENCY. Here are pics of gun which was handed down to me, grandfather to father, to son.

[10851Man]

I have an original 1862 production 1860 Colt Army and frequently shoot it.

[Noz]

Just a note: The 38 S&W case can be used as the base case to make a 9mm Federal cartridge. 9mm Federal is a rimmed 9mm cartridge that was developed to shoot in a revolver. Did not fly, was not accepted by the shooting public. Some guns are still around but no ammunition.
If you have one and want to shoot it I can tell you the steps to take.

[McShooty]

I go with Mr. Irwin on the question of black vs smokeless powder in old guns. If you load your own and don't mind cleaning a little, you can have a lot of fun without using smokeless.

One thing, though. I would like to see some report of results for long-term use of Trail Boss in the oldies, like the .38 shown here.

I have used 1.4-1.6 gr Trail boss in the .32 S&W with bullets from round ball to the 88 gr sold by MagTech. Results have been good, and no problems. This with a Model 1-1/2 single action and a double action, top break, 4th issue. This is not a long-term report, however.

[radom]

Not a fan of trail boss in old guns at all due to the sharp pressure spike with the stuff. There are a lot of other powders out there that have a slower presure curve and even less than BP. Never have used the stuff but looking at lab presure curves all I can say is ouch.

[Magnum Wheel Man]

I reload 1000's of rounds of both 32 & 38 S&W for my top breaks... Trailboss is my most used powder... I have 3 load levels for both 32 & 38 S&W...

these are my 38's... ( a couple bigger bores mixed in on the bottom ) all of these guns have been fired with Trailboss... & yes, the pressure curve "can" be higher, but the powder is safe with lower charge loadings, than most any other powder... so if I want a "hotter" loading, I use other powders, but if I want a lower power loading, like I have a revolver check out load that uses a fraction of a grain of Trailboss, & a soft lead round ball ( much less powder than I'd feel safe with any other powder )... this load is safe in any gun that times out ok...

http://thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=87971&d=1363259799

[TomADC]

I only have two neither are S&W the top one is a Forehand in 38 and the bottom is a Iver Johnson in 32.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL174/1021972/3058943/405993180.jpg

[10851Man]

Neat!