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BoogieMan
May 14, 2012, 02:16 PM
Just a curiosity question. I watched a documentary on Holland and Holland. Beautiful guns. But I have never seen one in person to know. Are they worth anything near the money that they ask for them? Or is it all just the clout of having one? Wish I had the bank for one, if I did i would buy another rental house not a gun. Have any of you ever just happened upon one at an auction or estate sale and picked it up for normal rifle prices?
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=285710876

aarondhgraham
May 14, 2012, 02:37 PM
Back from the early 60's through the 70's and early 80's,,,
My Mom and Dad were antique dealers in Oklahoma.

They dealt mostly in furniture but would buy and resell anything.

Much like those two men on American Pickers,,,
Mom and Dan would stop at any old farm with a pile of stuff.

On several occasions they would buy an entire farm or estate,,,
We would then work the property like salvage demons,,,
Quite often there would be some guns in the deal.

There were many many old beater shotguns suitable for lamps,,,
Every now and then we would get a decent old rifle,,,
WW-II milsurps were quite common guns to find,,,
We found lots of old revolvers but none rare.

I think my brother-in-law still has a Winchester,,,
My youngest brother got a 1911.

But I do know for certain Mom and Dad got one H&H double-rifle,,,
I'm the one who said it had to be British 'cause I didn't recognize the cartridge.

That one cased rifle paid the investment on that estate,,,
I know that the year was pre-1967,,,
I was still in high school.

Dad wrote a letter to H&H in England to get the gun authenticated,,,
They confirmed it's authenticity and gave an approximate value.

If I remember correctly Mom and dad got somewhere around $13,000 for it,,,
All I remember was that it was beautifully engraved and cased,,,
I wanted to keep it soooooooooooooooooo badly,,,
It was a gun like my safari movie heros used.

A few years later they found a Drilling in a closet,,,
Double barreled 20 gauge with a 9.3 x 57 rifle under the shotguns.

Aarond

.

phil mcwilliam
May 14, 2012, 11:40 PM
If you want to purchase a new Holland & Holland double rifle you first have to visit their shop to get measured for the gun. It is then several months wait for the gun to be made. The cost of a new H&H double rifle is around $140,000.
You ask if they are worth the money & for most people the answer is obviously no, but since the company has been producing rifles for 177 years it must be doing something right.

gunsmokeTPF
May 15, 2012, 01:14 AM
I'm lucky enough to have been left by an uncle when he passed a Holland & Holland takedown magazine rifle in 375 Nitro Express, with it's original canvas covered hard case. It was manufactured in 1911 and my son-in-law, who is British got me a copy of some of the original paperwork, while visiting the H&H store in London. He bought me a H&H sling that I love.

Unfortunately there was no info regarding who ordered it, only it's testing process, with the name of the individual who checked it out. The salesmen in the store were very interested where the gun was located after seeing photos and weren't thrilled that it was outside of England.

Mine is not in the six figure category, but in the $12,000 range. Do I think it's worth it's value? If someone was able to afford it, absolutely. Fortunately, I also inherited a Jeffreys magazine takedown rifle in 333 Jeffreys that's fully engraved, along with a numbered matched pair of Lancaster 12ga doubles fully engraved from the 1890's that belonged to a British officer. I'm very lucky.

These guns are bought by the very wealthy and today $100,000+ is nothing for them to spend on a custom gun. To them they're worth it. These guns can't be compared to your every day rifle, or shotgun. Many who build these guns come from families, with generations of experience. If you purchase one of their guns and have a problem, they treat you like royalty unlike the companies we have to deal with.

The only problem is when the time comes to sell them. Selling them to Tony down the block won't work out. Take them to your local gunshop, even when put on consignment and your screwed. I have a collection that's going to Sotherby, where it can be properly appraised and be exposed to those able to afford them, with a reserve of course.

Even though my son's a police officer he's not into guns like myself. Hopefully when I'm gone he'll keep for himself something and save a few things for my grandson. You wouldn't believe what he's already turned down from me. When I was 5 my uncle layed his G&H in my lap and I was hooked. I own that G&H now. I had my son shooting my M1A1 at 8, but it didn't work though he is a great shot. Are worth the money? Depends on who you ask!

trg42wraglefragle
May 15, 2012, 03:04 AM
No they're not worth he price for what you get.
The rifle will preform no better than your normal hunting rifle.

The only reason to buy one is if you are swimming in dollars, and get it to basically just show off.

Just like the $100,000 double barrel shotguns, I can't see how they preform any better than a nice $5000 shotgun.
Once again its really only to show off.

BoogieMan
May 15, 2012, 06:06 AM
I'm lucky enough to have been left by an uncle when he passed a Holland & Holland takedown magazine rifle in 375 Nitro Express, with it's original canvas covered hard case. It was manufactured in 1911 and my son-in-law, who is British got me a copy of some of the original paperwork, while visiting the H&H store in London. He bought me a H&H sling that I love.

Unfortunately there was no info regarding who ordered it, only it's testing process, with the name of the individual who checked it out. The salesmen in the store were very interested where the gun was located after seeing photos and weren't thrilled that it was outside of England.

Mine is not in the six figure category, but in the $12,000 range. Do I think it's worth it's value? If someone was able to afford it, absolutely. Fortunately, I also inherited a Jeffreys magazine takedown rifle in 333 Jeffreys that's fully engraved, along with a numbered matched pair of Lancaster 12ga doubles fully engraved from the 1890's that belonged to a British officer. I'm very lucky.

These guns are bought by the very wealthy and today $100,000+ is nothing for them to spend on a custom gun. To them they're worth it. These guns can't be compared to your every day rifle, or shotgun. Many who build these guns come from families, with generations of experience. If you purchase one of their guns and have a problem, they treat you like royalty unlike the companies we have to deal with.

The only problem is when the time comes to sell them. Selling them to Tony down the block won't work out. Take them to your local gunshop, even when put on consignment and your screwed. I have a collection that's going to Sotherby, where it can be properly appraised and be exposed to those able to afford them, with a reserve of course.

Even though my son's a police officer he's not into guns like myself. Hopefully when I'm gone he'll keep for himself something and save a few things for my grandson. You wouldn't believe what he's already turned down from me. When I was 5 my uncle layed his G&H in my lap and I was hooked. I own that G&H now. I had my son shooting my M1A1 at 8, but it didn't work though he is a great shot. Are worth the money? Depends on who you ask!


Very nice way to explain it. Should be admired in much the same way as a Rolls Royce. They are great high qaulity pieces with a pedigree. Its not that they shoot better than a $5k rifle, they just have class.
Love to hear what that list is thats going to Sotherby's.

Kreyzhorse
May 15, 2012, 06:30 AM
If you have the money, I'm sure they are certainly worth it. Sure other guns can do the same thing but at this point you are paying for craftsmenship and prestige.

darkgael
May 15, 2012, 06:35 AM
No they're not worth he price for what you get.
The rifle will preform no better than your normal hunting rifle.

The only reason to buy one is if you are swimming in dollars, and get it to basically just show off.

Just like the $100,000 double barrel shotguns, I can't see how they preform any better than a nice $5000 shotgun.
Once again its really only to show off.

That is a sweeping generalization and, like all sweeping generalizations, it is inaccurate.
There may be folks who buy rifles and shotguns like the custom H&Hs in order to flaunt their wealth. Maybe.
To imply that any person who makes such a purchase is doing so "only to show off" shows a lack of understanding about just what really fine guns are and why people buy them.
The idea that a $100K+ shotgun (or rifle) doesn't perform any better than a $5K version has some merit to it. That is, however, a very utilitarian point of view. One could argue (and people have) that the $5K shotgun doesn't perform a whole lot better than the old Remington 870. We own guns for more reasons than their utility.
There is an almost ineffable pride of ownership that comes from owning a fine firearm like the H&Hs and the Purdey's and the Rigbys. Guns that are to a large degree handmade. When a person buys one, they are buying more than just a gun that will go bang. They are buying a work of art that they can shoot.
If you ever get to NYC, take a trip to the H&H showroom and browse their offerings, maybe handle one or two, and get a sense of what is truly different about those guns.
Pete

uncyboo
May 15, 2012, 09:59 AM
No they're not worth he price for what you get.
The rifle will preform no better than your normal hunting rifle.

The only reason to buy one is if you are swimming in dollars, and get it to basically just show off.

Just like the $100,000 double barrel shotguns, I can't see how they preform any better than a nice $5000 shotgun.
Once again its really only to show off.

If this were truly the case one could always just buy a Rossi .22LR / 20ga / .243 Combo and NEVER be accused of showing off. They all go bang......:rolleyes:

Scorch
May 15, 2012, 11:02 AM
Much of the allure of Holland & Holland firearms is that they make limited numbers of them, and scarcity has always been more expensive. Another part of it is that they were the outfitters for the "who's who" of British aristocracy, and made a name for themselves by making absolutely perfect firearms that performed as promised. Kind of like Griffin & Howe here in the US, if you wanted to go there, they could outfit you, arm you, get you there, put you in touch with the right people, and make sure you would make it back. And they use nothing but the best. The best materials, the best designs, the best workmanship, the best results. H&H rifles and shotguns are not a mass produced commodity item, they are a hand-made, hand-fitted custom firearm. The best costs extra, plain and simple. So, is it worth it? If you have to ask, you can't afford it.

oneounceload
May 15, 2012, 12:37 PM
No they're not worth he price for what you get.
The rifle will preform no better than your normal hunting rifle.

The only reason to buy one is if you are swimming in dollars, and get it to basically just show off.

Just like the $100,000 double barrel shotguns, I can't see how they preform any better than a nice $5000 shotgun.
Once again its really only to show off.

Spoken by someone with very limited means and even more limited knowledge about these guns........

Besides the handmade aspect, these guns were built for rough country and usage. When you were on Safari in the early part of the last century, you were in the middle of no where and your gun was your life saver - it had to be built properly to take the punishment it was to encounter.

The fact that many here, including myself, may not have the financial means, does not make these guns any less of an exquisite example of a true craftsman's work, let alone the artist engraving that also can be found on them. I have been fortunate to handle both H&H rifles and shotguns, along with many other of the English and Italian "Best" guns - if you think that you can compare them to a Norinco or other cheap POS, then you are sadly mistaken and should do some more research on what goes into the making of these. It takes YEARS of apprenticeship to just get to start to work on creating these guns.

People who only see the price tag on something tend to miss the entire reason why something costs what it costs - whether guns, custom clothes, watches, knives, even custom-built homes - the better the materials, the craftsmanship, and the manufacture, the more it costs

gunsmokeTPF
May 15, 2012, 08:01 PM
When someone compares any gun that costs in the multi thousands to a $500gun, there cannot be a discussion at the same level due to lack of knowledge regarding quality and appreciating something of beauty. Everyone has a right to own whatever they wish and that would include everything from an H&R to an H&H. Usually a person's ability to buy higher end guns depends on their finances. But, like a friend of mine, he'll go no higher in quality regarding watches if the cost is more than a Timex and he can buy the gas stations he stops at to fill up his tank.

I get a lot of satisfaction when I show my collection to those who appreciate it and not necessarilly knowledgeable regarding guns. Keeping them in the dark is a sin. It wouldn't be worth opening my safe to show them to others who really dislike guns, or just can't understand the skill involved in making fine guns. These skills in many cases are passed down from father to son and grandson.

For over 50 years I sacrificed and saved and did without other things and went on less vacations in order to have what I have. I've sold off parts of my collection to buy my wife and kids Xmas presents. I miss those guns, but I did what I had to do, cause in reality they're only things and nothing matters more than family. When I start to feel a little down, or start to think of those who aren't around anymore, I open one of my safes and start wiping down those over valued pieces of metal and feel a little better. When I hold my uncles G&H it's like he's with me, just like when I was a little kid.

Sure, maybe 30 years ago when I sold 2 guns I liked a whole lot and couldn't be replaced and saved 5 months to get enough cash to pay $1100 for a winchester model21 12ga field double, that seemed crazy even though it was worth 7, or 8 hundred bucks more than I paid. I shot clays with that double and everyone who worked at that range wanted to either shoot it, or just hold it. I don't have to say what it's worth today to anyone who knows guns.

I've shot my H&H on only a few occassions. Fortunately I don't have to pay $10 a round from Kynoch and am able to fire 9.5x57 Mannlicher-Schoenauer that I can get much easier and for a better price. There's something about the way a German mauser action feels when it's put together by a old English gun company using craftsman in 1911, who haven't walked the earth probably in 70, or 80 years. That stock is sleak and that european walnut can't can't be had today. At least not easily, or cheap. Like it says on the label in the hard case, it works very well on Tigers in Inja in the hands of the King of England. It will work very well in any decent shooters's hand. It certainly does in mine.

jglsprings
May 15, 2012, 10:07 PM
That is a sweeping generalization and, like all sweeping generalizations, it is inaccurate.

All generalizations are false.

:rolleyes:

If someone will pay the asking price it is worth it. It is all about what the market will bear. The link in the OP looked like it closed without a bid. So maybe this time it wasn't worth it.

If I could afford an H&H rifle would I pay the asking price? Probably yes. A double 375 H&H Magnum made by Holland and Holland is something I would buy...

http://www.hollandandholland.com/royaldouble.php

But the license plate is due on my car so, not this month. LOL!

trg42wraglefragle
May 15, 2012, 11:55 PM
No doubt it takes a lot of skill to make the rifles and shot guns, and some very talented people make them, I'm not denying that.

And yes I can see why people could spend $5000 on a nice rifle.
But the OP said was it worth paying tens of thousands of dollars for one, then no they're not really worth it.

I admit I'm a very practical thinking kind of person, but I can see how you can spend a bit more money on something just because its nicer. Example, you might buy a nice Weatherby with the walnut stock and rosewood forend instead of a bog standard Remington 700.

But when it comes to a $100,000 rifle then unless you are swimming in money I cannot see how anyone could justify buying one.
Do I think they're are beautifully built rifles made by some very talented craftsmen, yes I do.
Do I think they are worth the price you pay for one, no I do not.

Pond, James Pond
May 16, 2012, 01:19 AM
Value is a very vague concept.

To most, most of the time it means "How much money need I spend?"

However, aside from the measurable financial aspect, value is also the feelings evoked in the owner.
For a high end product, it might be pride, wonder, excitement or big-headedness.
For low value goods, it could be exasperration, boredom, indifference or even loathing.

It is those facets to value that make something seem worth it to some or a waste of money to others, more than the hours of workmanship or kilos of steel used to make the end product.

That is why some will feel such rifles are worth those figures.
That, and the fact that the worth of money largely depends on how much you have to spend...
If you are a millionaire, or a single parent on the bread-line: 100 notes is not the same thing

gunsmokeTPF
May 16, 2012, 11:03 AM
There's really no reason for having to justify paying extremely high prices for certain guns. It's like asking Jay Leno to justify why he spends so much on his car collection. For cry'in out loud he built a garage with climate controls for those cars that keep them more pampered than we'd ever be in our homes.

It doesn't matter if you collect knives, or like fishing, etc.. You are either casually involved in your chosen interest, or you're passionate about it. Being passionate brings you to a different level, which is like night and day. Knowledge doesn't necessarilly go hand and hand with passion either. Hanging out with so called experts, or people with more knowledge than you, reading, or even just listening to others discussing guns can teach you an awfull lot. Reading these threads are very helpful as well. In the past few months I've picked up things I sure didn't know, even while getting into trouble.

A great feeling is when you can share information you have with someone who is very knowledgeable in their field. Many years ago, while at a gun show, I met this individual who wrote books about trapper models and was selling a few who began talking with me. I was shocked he didn't know what a mare's leg was. He asked me how I knew about it and I told him I read an article in T-V Guide about Wanted Dead Or Alive when I was a kid. He was actually taken back. My friend to this day still talks about that day. Now most know what they are cause they're being sold.

I'm happy for someone who gets excited when they want to show me a shotgun they just purchased and it turns out to be a $400 Mossberg. It's no Perazzi, but it's his and he really likes it a lot. After all they are used by the military and a vast number of police departments.

I don't own any five, or six figure priced guns, but wish I did. I'm very content with what I do have and am happy for others who enjoy what they have. I can't begin to tell you what I'd give to get back my grandfather's 1912 Austrian Steyr 9mm auto.

oneounceload
May 16, 2012, 11:18 AM
But when it comes to a $100,000 rifle then unless you are swimming in money I cannot see how anyone could justify buying one.
Do I think they're are beautifully built rifles made by some very talented craftsmen, yes I do.
Do I think they are worth the price you pay for one, no I do not.

But others do - I can point you to sites of some of Austria's best makers - where a gun can cost as much as $600,000 - why? Because it will be a one of a kind.

Fabbri makes target shotguns, mostly for the folks who like to shoot flyers. Their new titanium gun costs well over $100,000 - actually over $200,000 - but then they make each gun one at a time to order, they make every single part, including the screws, they vacuum smelt the barrels in a proprietary machine, etc. etc. - they build maybe two dozen guns a year and are using CAD/CAM machines costing millions - yet they have a multi-year waiting list - as does H&H, BOSS, DM Brown, and all of the "best" gun makers

Seems there are a lot of folks who don't share your view of whether they are worth it or not

trg42wraglefragle
May 16, 2012, 11:26 PM
Yes there does seem to be a lot of people who disagree, and who knows I might have to even change my opinion!

I can see how antique historical firearms can reach such a high price, as they have history behind them and the legacy that they carry.

But "oneounceload" you mentioned CAD machines, I assume you also mean CNC machines.
If that's the case I can understand even less how they'd cost so much, unless most of the price is in the materials.
If something is handcrafted I can see how to cost can go up, but built using computer controlled machines? My shooting buddy brought a Batmachine action for his long range rifle that was made on CNC machines and that cost him around $1200.

I wonder how much of the price is put into buying the name and branding?
Like guitars some lesser priced guitars are better than the branded ones because they don't come with the name "Gibson" or "fender".
I'd love to see how much time is put into making each rifle, how much materials cost and then see what mark up they've got on them.

Compared to high quality cars, the mark up on the rifles would be a huge amount more, think how much more materials and time it would take to build a car, and then the prices they compared to the rifles.
In my mind it just doesn't stack up, that is why I'm of the opinion they aren't worth what you pay, they're sure worth a lot more than your average hunting rifle but not what price they're asking.

ltc444
May 17, 2012, 12:32 PM
If I were to face a dangerous game animal, Cape Buffalo, charging, one of the H&H doubles would be worth every penny, pound or Mark I spent on it. The double rifles are probably the best designed weapon for snap shooting large snarling animals ever made.

gunsmokeTPF
May 17, 2012, 02:46 PM
Let's just cut to the chase. Anyone who wants to question whether, or not the higher end guns are better both in quality, or their worth, only needs to visit stores like Griffin and Howe located in Conn. and NJ. Also, have a look inside Holland & Holland, which is on East 40th Street in NYC. If your knees don't buckle at least a little while looking at what's being displayed, then you apparently are in a different category of gun enthusiest and should probably restrict yourself to those guns that are affordable to the casual shooter, or beginner.