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CCCLVII
May 14, 2012, 10:04 AM
I recently found out that hunting with a suppressor in Idaho is legal. I have booked a elk and deer hunt for the fall of 2013. I would like to use a suppressed weapon.

What I am looking for is advise on what round to use. While I know a 30-06 or a 338 work well on deer and elk, but load them at subsonic speeds I doubt they would have a lot of killing power. I am looking for a gun that will still have enough power to kill even at 1000-1050FPS. SO big bullets are a +

I am willing to buy a new gun and suppressor and tax stamp.

I am mostly doing this for a change of pace. I have hunted with rifles, hand guns, archery and black powder. I am just looking for some thing new.

RedBowTies88
May 14, 2012, 10:10 AM
maybe .458 socom or .50 beo.


Why does it need to be subsonic? sure the high velocities will be louder but still quiet enough to not really need hearing protection. Even with a suppressed sub sonic load it will still be plenty loud to spook game.

CCCLVII
May 14, 2012, 10:29 AM
Like i said this is not because its really practical, I just want a change of pace. I feel that learning the hold over for a big slow bullet would be more of a challenge.

dayman
May 14, 2012, 10:36 AM
That's a cool idea. I wish suppressors were legal for hunting out this way. Do you reload? If so I'd buy something in .375 H&H or even like a .465, and power it down to where you want it.
That way, if you decide to go bear hunting (or if you want to explode some pumpkins), you can replace the suppressor with a muzzle break, and you'll be good to go.

hornetguy
May 14, 2012, 10:42 AM
I feel that learning the hold over for a big slow bullet would be more of a challenge.

sounds very much like a muzzle-loader, but with a cartridge to avoid the "mess".

Scorch
May 14, 2012, 10:49 AM
This is more of a stunt than anything else, IMO. A 500-gr bullet at 1,050 fps will have 1,230 ft-lbs of energy at the muzzle. Depending on the BC, it will not have a whole lot more than 1,000 ft-lbs at 200 yds. Yes, it will kill an elk. And yes, you will have to learn to hold over. But you will not be shooting very far.

CCCLVII
May 14, 2012, 10:59 AM
Yeah its more for fun. I figure it will be much like shooting sacred black (black powder) with less noise and cleaning. I dont think ill be shooting much more than 100 yards unless I find I am exceptionally good with hold over (doubtful).

Its just some thing different.

Deja vu
May 14, 2012, 12:06 PM
I am working on a similar project. Mine is a 45/70 Marlin SBL. I have all ready threaded the barrel, payed for the suppressor and gotten finger prints and taken my Visa pictures. I am still weighting for AWC to finish building my suppressor so I can send the forms in to the sheriff and then to the feds.

I will not be shooting sub sonic ammo (except to play with). I just wanted to make my hunting rifle not damage my hearing any more than it already is. When I wear hearing protection I get a plugged up feeling in my head. While I can tolerate it for a range session. Hunting all day with it becomes unbearable.

Buzzcook
May 14, 2012, 12:14 PM
.50-110, if you can find one. You'd have to down load it a bit.

SSA
May 14, 2012, 12:33 PM
There is the 510 Whisper.

NoSecondBest
May 14, 2012, 02:32 PM
Buy a Sharps 45-70 and shoot it smokeless. Way more than enough power to kill anything in North America and a big slow bullet. I shoot mine (High Wall and Sharps) with 405 grain bullets at between 1250 and 1450 fps. Both guns will shoot MOA and are a LOT of fun to hunt with. I got into this a couple of years ago to do something different.

FrankenMauser
May 14, 2012, 03:07 PM
Use the suppressor, but don't go subsonic. The reduction in decibel level will be more than enough.

However...
Unless you get cracking right now, you may not even get approval for the suppressor purchase, before the hunt comes around. There are always delays. The only real way to try to speed things up, is to buy a suppressor that is in stock at a local dealer, or that a local dealer can get their hands on very quickly.

Art Eatman
May 14, 2012, 03:19 PM
Always keep in mind that the deal is "clean, ethical kill".

So you go out and Gee! The only game seen is at 300 yards or thereabouts. Sub-sonic does not strike me as a wise decision.

I was a bystander at Whittington as a guy was shooting a suppressed bolt-action .308. He was regularly clanging the steel targets to at least 400 yards as I watched. I was surprised at the amount of reduction in muzzle blast.

And remember, the higher the elevation, the slower the speed of sound. :) At 5,000 ft, sub-sonic is around 1,050 ft/sec.

mapsjanhere
May 14, 2012, 04:16 PM
The problem with going 510 Whisper or similar solutions based on the 50 BMG round - while there are some hunting-legal hollow point bullets, most won't open up or fragment at the slow speeds you're aiming for. So even when you use the heavy rounds to get the energy you still get poor target ballistics.

chewie146
May 14, 2012, 04:30 PM
How bout getting an NEF single shot in 500 S&W or .45-70 and loading some thumpers for that? I had a load for my NEF, which I sold, that I used to shoot with good success. Granted, these were only 350 grain bullets, but they were going 1000 fps with 11 grains of unique. You could bump that up quite a bit if you wanted to a heavier bullet. With the 500 S&W, there would be the 440 grain hard cast lead. Then, you get the barrel threaded and a suppressor to match.

Deja vu
May 14, 2012, 07:15 PM
Always keep in mind that the deal is "clean, ethical kill".

So you go out and Gee! The only game seen is at 300 yards or thereabouts. Sub-sonic does not strike me as a wise decision.
The OP talked about hunting with archery and handguns as well as black powder. I don't passing up a shot is a huge deal.

I believe he was wanting to do it for more of a challenge. Shooting full bore ammo through a suppressor does not add any challenge.

WildBill45
May 14, 2012, 07:35 PM
Sorry, but to a suspicious cop type this sounds like a poaching setup to me...

Mobuck
May 14, 2012, 08:56 PM
The military tried the .458x 2" a long time ago. It failed to meet expectations mostly because it only worked well at very short range. Even conservative hunting ranges require some significant holdover and energy levels are much too low to be viable on big game.

CCCLVII
May 14, 2012, 09:28 PM
I have hunted Elk with a 44 magnum hand gun. I am sure the heavier bullet will be just fine. I have passed animals many times while hunting. My primary type of hunting is archery. I see no reason why it cant be done. I actually have long sense tired of hunting with a rifle on non-dangerous game. I believe variety is the spice of life. I think it will be very similar to shooting a muzzle loader in 45 caliber. A little slower bullet but the bullet will all so be heavier. Ill test it out to see how far I can keep the shots on a plate from a standing position.

Sorry, but to a suspicious cop type this sounds like a poaching setup to me...
__________________

ah yes. Just because I choose to hunt different (while still legal and 100% in my rights) I am sure I must be poaching. :rolleyes: . I have also hunted in places where you most people hunt with a suppressor such as Norway. So obviously most people who hunt in Norway must be a poacher as well? Reminds me of a F&G officer that came unglued on me because I was hunting white tail deer with a 50BMG. He actually took my gun for about an hour while called around on the radio trying to find some thing to sight me for. In the end he had nothing and just looked like a jerk.

*edited to say I am leaning toward the 510 Whisper at this point but I still have time to look at others.

semi_problomatic
May 14, 2012, 09:36 PM
The best way to go around subsonic velocities is to use super massive bullets.

http://world.guns.ru/sniper/large-caliber-sniper-rifles/rus/vks-vssk-vychlop-e.html

mapsjanhere
May 15, 2012, 12:14 AM
Problem with the whisper series those are proprietary cartridges made from really expensive brass. For your project I would look into a .50 Alaskan, nice round for regular hunting, and as a rimmed round you can shorten it to fit the larger bullets on it. Should sill have plenty of powder space to reach those 1200 ft/s you need.

CCCLVII
May 15, 2012, 09:25 AM
Problem with the whisper series those are proprietary cartridges made from really expensive brass. For your project I would look into a .50 Alaskan, nice round for regular hunting, and as a rimmed round you can shorten it to fit the larger bullets on it. Should sill have plenty of powder space to reach those 1200 ft/s you need.

That is a good idea but is there any way to put a 50 AK with a big (50BMG) bullet in a repeater or would I be limited to a single shot or a double rifle?

amflyer
May 15, 2012, 09:53 AM
At the risk of being a preachy wet blanket type, keep in mind that there are many, many things that can be done in life, but shouldn't be. Theoretical situations are instructional and interesting, but this is one of those ideas that would be best to leave on the napkin.

Deja vu
May 15, 2012, 12:55 PM
To me it sounds like fun. As stated before I am working on a suppressed 45/70. I plan to use regular hunting loads in it.

I would suggest to the OP to try to hunt this year with the subsonic loads and see how it goes even though he probably will not have the suppressor yet, even if he put the paper work in today. If you can take game with this load with out a suppressor then adding the suppressor will not change any thing other than having to adjust the sights slightly.

Many people frown on suppressors for hunting but I think they are great. Just be prepaired to get stopped. I find many officers to not know much about civilian ownership of suppressors. This is second hand information but I believe it.

p.s. If hunting in Idaho make sure your gun is not heavy. If the gun is even 1 oz heavier than 16LBS you can not use it in Idaho for hunting and you may have to do more than just pay a fine, you could loose the gun and your hunting rights.

Magnum Wheel Man
May 15, 2012, 01:09 PM
you can get 50 Alaskan in a lever action...

Brian Pfleuger
May 15, 2012, 01:46 PM
At the risk of being a preachy wet blanket type, keep in mind that there are many, many things that can be done in life, but shouldn't be. Theoretical situations are instructional and interesting, but this is one of those ideas that would be best to leave on the napkin.


The idea that you can't hunt big game with subsonic ammo is beyond laughable.

10s of thousands of hunters kill animals all over the world with 300-400gr projectiles at 200-300 fps on a daily basis.

All over the world, big bore air guns (YES, AIR GUNS!) are and have been used on big game for at least 2 centuries. Big bore air guns were, for many years, the most powerful "fire"arms available.

It's not an ethics question, it's a logistics question. There are plenty of entirely suitable options.

black mamba
May 15, 2012, 02:23 PM
I would consider a .338 Whisper. Long, heavy, aerodynamic bullets will mandate a fast twist at 1050-1100 fps, probably 1 in 7" to stabilize properly.

mapsjanhere
May 15, 2012, 03:21 PM
That is a good idea but is there any way to put a 50 AK with a big (50BMG) bullet in a repeater or would I be limited to a single shot or a double rifle?
That's why I mentioned you can probably cut back the case a bit to keep the OAL the same; the cartridge headspaces on the rim, and the case is nearly cylindrical from what I can tell.

B.L.E.
May 17, 2012, 09:54 AM
And remember, the higher the elevation, the slower the speed of sound. At 5,000 ft, sub-sonic is around 1,050 ft/sec.

Actually, it's the temperature of the air, not its atmospheric pressure that determines the speed of sound and air does get colder at high altitudes so your statement is true in an indirect way.
But, if you are on top of a 5000 ft mountain and the air temperature is 80 degrees F, the speed of sound will be the same as it is in 80 degree sea level air.
Ammo that was subsonic during the hot summer may become supersonic during that winter cold snap.

Art Eatman
May 17, 2012, 02:11 PM
B.L.E. I won't argue, but my comment derived from a website set up to calculate Mach numbers at various altitudes; temperatures could be included, of course, but air density varies with altitude alone, regardless of temperature.

RedBowTies88
May 17, 2012, 02:19 PM
Actually, it's the temperature of the air, not its atmospheric pressure that determines the speed of sound and air does get colder at high altitudes so your statement is true in an indirect way.
But, if you are on top of a 5000 ft mountain and the air temperature is 80 degrees F, the speed of sound will be the same as it is in 80 degree sea level air.
Ammo that was subsonic during the hot summer may become supersonic during that winter cold snap.

You know, I wasn't a physics major or anyhting but I don't believe that is correct.

Density is the name of the game when dictating how fast waves can move through a substance...sure tempature has an effect on density, but density and and not temp will dictate the speed of said waves.

For expample, in water which...far more dense then air the speed of sound is much faster. Through rock is even faster then that.


Of course I could be completely wrong... but thats the way I understand it.

mapsjanhere
May 17, 2012, 02:38 PM
Density and pressure of gases are not independent from each other (ideal gas law works pretty decent for the atmospheric gas mixture), and their contribution cancels itself out. Speed of sounds rises with the square root of absolute temperature for a given gas mixture.

B.L.E.
May 17, 2012, 05:07 PM
The speed of sound through a fluid is the square root of (bulk modulus/density).

Bulk modulus is a fancy name for how stiffly it resists compression. As you go up in altitude, both the force needed to compress the air and the density go down together, resulting in a constant speed of sound.

Increasing the temperature lowers the air's density without also reducing its bulk modulus so heating the air results in an increase in the speed of sound.

The reason the speed of sound in water is so high is because it has an extremely high bulk modulus, i.e. it's nearly incompressible.

If you look at speed of sound vs altitude charts, look at altitudes higher than 40,000 ft. At these altitudes, the air no longer gets colder with an increase in altitude and the speed of sound stops decreasing.

Art Eatman
May 18, 2012, 09:00 AM
"...At these altitudes, the air no longer gets colder with an increase in altitude..."

Now, that'll warm the cockles of an astronaut's heart! :D

The denser the medium, the faster that sound waves travel. Less dense = slower travel. Increasing altitude = lower air density => lower speed of sound.

B.L.E.
May 18, 2012, 10:34 PM
The denser the medium, the faster that sound waves travel. Less dense = slower travel. Increasing altitude = lower air density => lower speed of sound.


It's not that simple.
Consider the following.
The speed of sound in:
hydrogen at 0 C 4219 fps
helium at 0 C 3189 fps
air at 0 C 1085 fps
air at 20 C 1125 fps

Notice a trend?, the less dense the gas, the faster the speed of sound.
Lighter gasses have less momentum so when compressed, they can spring back to original volume faster and that makes sound waves travel faster.
Harder to compress gasses also spring back to original volume faster so gasses that are harder to compress have a higher speed of sound.

At high altitudes, the air is less dense, which speeds up the speed of sound, however, less dense air is easier to compress, which slows down the speed of sound. The two cancel each other out.

Check out this link and look at the temperature and speed of sound at altitudes above 35000 ft. This chart goes to 60,000 ft and I guarantee that the air density at that altitude is less than at 35,000 ft. Above 35,000 ft, the air stops getting colder and the speed of sound becomes constant.

http://www.fighter-planes.com/jetmach1.htm

Brian Pfleuger
May 18, 2012, 10:57 PM
Did you know that the speed of sound is completely irrelevant to killing an animal?

Yep. Sure is. The only reason anything about air matters at all is if you pop the big air bags inside the animal, they die. They don't care how fast the projectile is going or what Mach is. They only care that they can't breathe.

taylorce1
May 19, 2012, 12:54 AM
It would have to be one heavy bullet to be legal in CO. To be legal for big game in CO with a centerfire rifle you have to use a minimum of a 6mm or larger caliber bullet 70 grain minimum for deer, black bear, and pronghorn, and 85 grain minimum for elk and moose. Plus it has to generate a minimum of 1000 ft lbs of energy at 100 yards.

Easiest way to get around the regulations in Colorado is to hunt muzzle loader if you want subsonic but I'm pretty sure it would look funny with a "can" threaded on the end of the barrel. ;)

Deja vu
May 22, 2012, 07:45 AM
It would have to be one heavy bullet to be legal in CO. To be legal for big game in CO with a centerfore rifle you have to use a minimum of a 6mm or larger caliber bullet 70 grain minimum for deer, black bear, and pronghorn, and 85 grain minimum for elk and moose. Plus it has to generate a minimum of 1000 ft lbs of energy at 100 yards.

Easiest way to get around the regulations in Colorado is to hunt muzzle loader if you want subsonic but I'm pretty sure it would look funny with a "can" threaded on the end of the barrel.

I think most rounds of 500 grain rounds or heavier will pull off 1000FP at 100 yards if loaded to 1050 at the muzzle.

taylorce1
May 22, 2012, 08:46 AM
500 grain loads out of a .50 won't do it at 1050 fps, you'll have about 980 ft-lbs of energy at 100 yards. .338 or .30 calibers would be the most economical way to do it, but they will lack adequate energy for use on elk. Doesn't mean it won't kill them, just that the OP better be close and hone his tracking skills. Plus I think a bullet made/cast of soft lead will perform better than a jacketed rifle bullet, that is why I suggested a muzzle loader.

darkgael
May 22, 2012, 09:26 AM
I have an SSK barrel for my T/C Encore 1-8" twist. I load 647gr. BMG bullets into 50-70 cases. They come out at about 950fps and are quite accurate out to 200 yards. At 200 yds they are still going 870 fps and have 1100 ft.lbs of energy remaining.
Note: some years ago, there was an article in "The Double Gun and Single Shot Journal" by Ross Seyfried in which he describes an elk hunt on which he used a single shot rifle chambered for the .455 Webley. *
Pete *

darkgael
May 22, 2012, 12:53 PM
In this case, a 647 gr. bullet:
http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr287/PeteDoyle/50-70-690.jpg

Brass is readily available and affordable, as are dies. You can even make serviceable cases from .348 Win brass.
Pete

taylorce1
May 22, 2012, 03:19 PM
That bullet you posted would be illegal in most states for big game hunting. I'm pretty sure that is a fmj, non expanding bullets are usually banned for hunting large game. Plus I think you should use an expanding bullet for all big game hunting in North America.

Don't get me wrong I don't always agree with what is stated in the rule book but I do follow the rules. I do think some of Colorado's hunting regulations need updated especially the bullet weights now that there are premium mono metal bullets on the market, and to allow the use of sub 70 grain bullets for deer, pronghorn, and black bear. Obeying the rules keeps me hunting and enjoying the freedom to do so. Just make sure you check the regulations for the state you'll be hunting in so you don't get on trouble, would have helped Uncle Ted a couple of times now. Plus even though Idaho allows hunting with suppressors I think the have a ban on rifles over a certain weight to keep people from hunting with the .50 BMG.

darkgael
May 22, 2012, 06:15 PM
That bullet you posted would be illegal in most states for big game hunting.

Yes. I understand that. The point of the picture was to show that there is an affordable, easy to put together cartridge for what the OP specified.
The trick, though, is to find a legal .50 cal bullet that will do a humane job and work at 900 fps.
I am wondering if there is a mold available that would cast a soft lead bullet with enough weight and a high enough BC so that it retains velocity and energy the way that the BMG boattails do,
I wonder about the 600 and 700 grainers that Rick Gibson used to sell for the 500 S&W. They were cast lead. \
Perhaps the suggestion to use a rifle chambered for the 500 Smith along with very heavy lead bullets is an avenue to pursue.
Pete

taylorce1
May 22, 2012, 09:03 PM
Yes. I understand that. The point of the picture was to show that there is an affordable, easy to put together cartridge for what the OP specified.


I don't care about the cost, but I think you have a sweet set up with your Encore there. When you start talking about .50 cal suppressors cheap goes out the window. Unless your are just that wealthy that it doesn't matter to you what a suppressor costs.

The trick, though, is to find a legal .50 cal bullet that will do a humane job and work at 900 fps.
I am wondering if there is a mold available that would cast a soft lead bullet with enough weight and a high enough BC so that it retains velocity and energy the way that the BMG boattails do,


Sure you can get cast bullets as heavy as 700 grains Montana Bullet Works (http://www.montanabulletworks.com/BB_50_caliber.html) has them ready to go. Plus they tell you what mould the use so once you find the bullet that works you know which mould to buy and who to get it from. But going cast you loose all the good BC advantage of the jacketed bullet. Which again will make the OP have to stick with normal black powder or shotgun ranges where shots over 150 yards will be long range shots. Plus if you run cast bullets you'll need a twist that won't allow jacketed bullets, which would make it a very specialized barrel.

You could have a custom mould made that would give you higher BC's but there are other considerations. The problem with lead bullets that aren't flat bases with a long bearing surface is that they don't always obiturate to the bore and the hot gases blow by and that really screws things up. The 750 grain A-Max might work but I think your best bet would be a custom bullet with a half jacket and exposed lead tip especially if we are talking strictly single shot rifles. I wonder if Corbin could make a set of bullet making dies like that?

I don't own a .50 cal rifle that shoots jacketed bullets, so I really don't know what is available that would work at sub sonic speeds either.

I wonder about the 600 and 700 grainers that Rick Gibson used to sell for the 500 S&W. They were cast lead. \
Perhaps the suggestion to use a rifle chambered for the 500 Smith along with very heavy lead bullets is an avenue to pursue.

That would be a simple way to go for sure.

I really don't think this is much of a stunt as some other people suggested in the earlier postings. People have been killing elk with subsonic bullets out of Muzzle loaders for 100's of years. I'm just not sure it is really worth pursuing using a subsonic suppressed cartridge for elk hunting.

Deja vu
May 22, 2012, 09:36 PM
500 grain loads out of a .50 won't do it at 1050 fps, you'll have about 980 ft-lbs of energy at 100 yards. .338 or .30 calibers would be the most economical way to do it, but they will lack adequate energy for use on elk. Doesn't mean it won't kill them, just that the OP better be close and hone his tracking skills. Plus I think a bullet made/cast of soft lead will perform better than a jacketed rifle bullet, that is why I suggested a muzzle loader.


When I said 500 grain I was thinking .458 caliber.

at 1050 fps at the muzzle this bullet http://www.hornady.com/store/45-Cal-.458-500-gr-RN/ has 1224 FPE. At 100 yards it has 1060 FPE. At 150 yards it has 1000 FPE.

so it would pass the minimum energy at 100 yards and technically is an expanding bullet through I doubt it would expand at that speed.

While I am not saying it is the best option for hunting I do admire the OP for trying some thing new to him. I am suppressing a 45/70 Marlin but I still plan to use the supersonic ammo for hunting and just use subsonic ammo for plinking.

If people always used the best weapon for hunting there would be no such thing as Archery hunting, Hand gun hunting or black powder hunting. Fortunately there are people out there willing to try new (or old and ineffective) things.

I believe it was Teddy Roosevelt that had and occasionally hunted with a Suppressed Winchester 1894 (I believe in 30-30)

But I also agree with the quoted text. A muzzle loader would be a great option. I have a hard time wrapping my brain around a suppressed muzzle loader.

taylorce1
May 22, 2012, 09:56 PM
When I said 500 grain I was thinking .458 caliber.

at 1050 fps at the muzzle this bullet http://www.hornady.com/store/45-Cal-.458-500-gr-RN/ has 1224 FPE. At 100 yards it has 1060 FPE. At 150 yards it has 1000 FPE.

so it would pass the minimum energy at 100 yards and technically is an expanding bullet through I doubt it would expand at that speed.

That would work! But a bullet that wouldn't expand would be the problem. A non expanding bullet isn't going to result in a quick kill unless it is a CNS shot. Realistically this would only be 100-200 yard shot at the maximum because of what he is attempting to do anything beyond that the performance would be to iffy to try ethically.

Deja vu
May 22, 2012, 10:47 PM
That would work! But a bullet that wouldn't expand would be the problem. A non expanding bullet isn't going to result in a quick kill unless it is a CNS shot. Realistically this would only be 100-200 yard shot at the maximum because of what he is attempting to do anything beyond that the performance would be to iffy to try ethically.

I agree in fact I think 200 yards with such a round would be really hard.

taylorce1
May 22, 2012, 11:01 PM
But I also agree with the quoted text. A muzzle loader would be a great option. I have a hard time wrapping my brain around a suppressed muzzle loader.

A muzzle loader like the Savage 10ml or other similar rifle that can use smokeless powder wouldn't look all that strange. It would be a PITA to reload with the suppressor on though. Now putting it on a sidelock or counter would be plain weird.

darkgael
May 23, 2012, 07:10 AM
This idea has me very interested.
Thanks for the link to Montana Bullet......they sell a 625 grain PP'd bullet of pure lead that shows great promise for a project like this. If it has a BC at .360 or so, then, launched at 950fps, it would have over 1000 ft.lbs remaining at 200 yards and one could be reasonably sure of some expansion/deformation.
In addition, more $ but..... Woodleigh offers a 580 grain RNSN that could go at 1050 fps and work also.
Pete

taylorce1
May 23, 2012, 08:43 AM
it would have over 1000 ft.lbs remaining at 200 yards and one could be reasonably sure of some expansion/deformation

I wouldn't get hung up on energy numbers, I don't know of any other state than CO that has them in their regs. Plus they really only apply to factory ammunition so if your shooting a wildcat with no factory offerings then I don't think the energy requirements apply. I'm a big believer in shot placement trumps all other numbers as long as those other numbers provide for adequate penetration and expansion of the bullet.

The Colorado reg reads 1000 ft-lbs of energy at 100 yards as rated by manufacturer.

1tfl
May 23, 2012, 10:17 AM
I occasionally hunt hogs at night on my property with supressed AR-15 rifle.
One thing you have deal with when using supressed weapon is the length. Even a AR Carbine with 16" barrel starts to get really long with a supressor on it. Carrying a rifles with supressor is really long and it catches on every branch out there. Now I only use the supressor on my SBR as it makes it managable out there.

steveracer
May 23, 2012, 10:28 AM
Muzzle loaders in .50, the older 45/70 loads were under 1100 FPS. People kill them with ARROWS!!!
I would get a .45/70 and either load it to black powder levels or buy slower ammo. It should work just fine.
Of course, this means kinda close up, but whatever.

tobnpr
May 25, 2012, 04:30 PM
Hey, go for it if the shot opportunity arises and you're confident of the shot.

I get a kick out of the guys that act like there's some "rule" as to the distance of an "ethical" shot- usually seeming to be in the range of a few hundred yards.
Seemingly ignoring the facts that modern technology of laser RF's and pocket ballistic programs on PDA's make much longer shots very practical with an accurate weapon and a shooter that understands the limitations of it, and his abilities.

You seem to be well aware of the limitations of your intended game plan. Good luck, let us know what you decide on...

CCCLVII
May 28, 2012, 09:14 AM
Sorry I have been away on business for about a week. I still am not sure what I want to use. I was thinking some thing at least 44 caliber. I would like to try some thing not super tacticool. I was think some thing more traditional looking with wood and iron sights.

I like the idea of the 50 Alaskan but I dont think I could put those pointy 50BMG bullets in a tube magazine could I? Is there a Magazine fed 50AK out there? The only ones I have ever seen is Conversions from lever actions. I guess making a single shot would be a pretty simple conversion for a decent gun smith.

I like the Idea of a suppressed lever action. The 45/70 talked about earlier sounds like a fun project. Though I guess a 50AK may prove more effective because of the larger possible bullets.

taylorce1
May 28, 2012, 11:31 PM
I was thinking some thing at least 44 caliber. I would like to try some thing not super tacticool. I was think some thing more traditional looking with wood and iron sights.


Iron sights will not work with a suppressor. A big suppressor like that will mess with the front sight post. The only way to get around it would be to have sights on your rifle like an AR.

I like the idea of the 50 Alaskan but I dont think I could put those pointy 50BMG bullets in a tube magazine could I? Is there a Magazine fed 50AK out there? The only ones I have ever seen is Conversions from lever actions. I guess making a single shot would be a pretty simple conversion for a decent gun smith.


Pointy bullets aren't a smart idea in a tube magazine for sure. Not to mention they would probably be too long to feed from the magzine. Lever action rifles are really sensitive to case lenght. I've seen several bolt action .45-70's built of Siamese Mauser and P14 Enfields and that may work for you. If you go single shot look for a Ruger #1 to build on if you have to have a lever to operate your action.

I like the Idea of a suppressed lever action. The 45/70 talked about earlier sounds like a fun project. Though I guess a 50AK may prove more effective because of the larger possible bullets.

I think if you really want to run a lever action rifle with iron sights you shouldn't mess with a suppressor. If you are willing to scope it then pick up a Marlin Guide Gun then a suppressor might be worth it.

darkgael
May 29, 2012, 06:15 AM
Lever guns in 50 AK? You bet. Magazine fed...not that I know of.
The 50 AK and its older brother the 450 AK (by Harold Johnson of Cooper's Landing in a Model 71 Winchester) are both lever friendly.
See Wild West Guns in Anchorage for Marlin Guide Gun conversions.
I have been lusting after one of their Alaskan Co-pilot take downs for years.
See:
http://wildwestguns.com/copilot.html

Pete

CCCLVII
May 29, 2012, 05:16 PM
Lever guns in 50 AK? You bet. Magazine fed...not that I know of.
The 50 AK and its older brother the 450 AK (by Harold Johnson of Cooper's Landing in a Model 71 Winchester) are both lever friendly.
See Wild West Guns in Anchorage for Marlin Guide Gun conversions.
I have been lusting after one of their Alaskan Co-pilot take downs for years.
See:
http://wildwestguns.com/copilot.html

Pete

There page looks interesting. I have seen it before but it was long ago.

How heavy of a bullet do you think could be crammed in to a 50AK lever action with a tube magazine?

Magnum Wheel Man
May 29, 2012, 05:42 PM
I load 540 grain hard cast in my custom Marlin 50 A.E., & they cycle fine... I'd imagine the 50 Alaskan is set up to run the heavy bullets

http://thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=26246&d=1187007485

darkgael
May 30, 2012, 06:07 AM
The 50 AK - a wildcat based on the 348 Win. case - has an OAL of 2.1". Bullet diameter is .510-.512. For comparison, the 500 S&W has a case length of 1.625"; it can be loaded with bullets up to 700 grains (cast). Diameters are different as the S&W is .500". I wonder, though, if those .500" bullets actually drop from their mold at that diameter....probably not. I'd expect that one could get loadable/shootable bullets for the 50AK using those molds or ordering them unsized.
Also, for reference, IIRC the original bullets used for the 50 AK were jacketed Truncated Cones which were made by cutting 50 BMG bullets and using the boat tail end as the slug. Makes a nice looking bullet. Using a jig for the cut helps to keep the base neat. I have done this...they work. One can, to a degree, adjust the weight by the length of the cut.
Pete