View Full Version : Sub-Paramilitary Rifles?

April 26, 2012, 04:13 PM
Been thinking CQW would be mostly like the PS90 and GSG. But, I cannot for the love of god find any other sub-paramilitary rifles. Anyone sporting one? Only other person I know is my brothers friend who has a MP35 was only allowed to keep being in the army for some time.

April 26, 2012, 04:41 PM
Dont own, but you might want to look at the kriss vector, hk usc, and the beretta cx4.

April 26, 2012, 04:53 PM
Thanks for replying. Those are some mighty fine looking ones. I dont think the MP7 and the vector could be for civilian use though X_X.

April 26, 2012, 05:05 PM
Sub? Para is already sub or military like. So you want sub-sortamilitary. JK

April 26, 2012, 05:14 PM
I like the phrase "pistol-caliber carbine"

and the vector can be had semi auto. I think they make an ATF-rifle and ATF-pistol. And i think the hottest way to do it is SBR the rifle.

I would look at the CX4 and AR's in pistol calibers as well.

April 26, 2012, 05:15 PM
The vector comes in a semi-auto version. clicky (http://www.riflegear.com/p-1086-kriss-super-v-vector-rifle.aspx) for a mere $1700 it can be yours! :eek:

Not sure if you were mixing up the mp7 and the USC, but the USC is the semi auto version of the UMP.

April 26, 2012, 05:37 PM
Interesting. Does anyone own any of these to give input on how well they perform accuracy wise?

Yea went to a random site with a list of sub machine guns and saw the beauty mp7 xD had to name it off.

April 26, 2012, 06:18 PM
Oh wow. Kriss Vector, from most persons' experiance a 2-10 feed jam within 50 rounds....... Not very reliable X_x

List of Possibilities :

FNH Ps90

April 27, 2012, 11:50 AM
If you want to go the Don't Scare the Neighbors route, check out the used rifle market for the out of production Marlin Camp carbines, in either 9mm or .45.
They look like overgrown .22s, using easy to find pistol magazines.
Very non offensive looking and good shooting, too.
Ruger used to, and maybe still does, make a 9mm carbine.
Just a thought or two.

April 27, 2012, 04:22 PM
To me, I don't really care about the neighbors. Since the level of the houses in my area are so weird even if it went through. I doubt it would even hit they're house. Like my backyard neighbor you would have to aim from my roof to hit the 1st level of the house and my side neighbor to the right is below my 1st level and my front and right neighbor is all above my 1st level.

Is their any other bullpup babies worth mentioning?

April 27, 2012, 05:04 PM
If you don't feel the need to stick to a pistol caliber, a steyr aug clone or the FN fs2000 might be up your alley.

April 27, 2012, 05:39 PM
Heard the MSAR clone isn't too accurate and a few other problems with it. And the fs2000 is still in the bleh area since you cant mod it at all.

April 27, 2012, 06:29 PM
What kind of stuff would you want to do?

April 28, 2012, 01:49 AM
Well just to have a as a CQW while being able to compete with my friends. Since whoever loses/whoever is the last 2 in scores. Has to buy drinks for everyone. Also, to make the gun look beautiful. SR420 has modded his ar15 to quite some beauty.

April 28, 2012, 04:25 AM
The HK USC in .45ACP is a nice carbine. Mine has performed flawlessly since '02 when I purchased it new. It's fun to shoot out to 75 yards and it moves the .45 along smartly with it's 16" barrel.

April 29, 2012, 04:31 PM
What caliber you want to play in? 9mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP for submachine guns? Or 5.7x28mm Personal Defesne Weapon (FN PS90)?

Pistol caliber submachine guns you have H&K MP5 series(available in 9mm and 40 S&W), the USC .45 ACP; battle hardened Uzis in 9mm; MAC 10 in 9mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, and 5.7x28mm; VZ Scorpion in .32 ACP, and .380 Auto; Thompson machine gun from WWII; PSH 41 and 43 from Russia; KRISS in .45 ACP that takes Glock magazines.

Then you get in to the only civilian legal PDW which is the FN PS90.

Of those I perfer PS90 and MP5. PS90 if SBR is a handy PDW with 50 rounds capacity. MP5 in various configurations in 9mm is uber realiable.

Note: MP7 not civilian legal nor is the ammo to my knowledge

April 30, 2012, 12:00 AM
Incorrect sir. Sub machine guns ARE NOT CIVILIAN USE. Pistol Caliber Defense Weapon/Sub Paramilitary.

April 30, 2012, 12:39 AM
What is a civilian use? What does sub paramilitary mean? I've certainly never heard of that term before. Neither has Google for that matter.

I've see plenty of people shooting their sub-machine guns at the range. Does that count as civilian use?

What kind of rifles do your friends have? Do you like shooting any of them?

April 30, 2012, 02:50 AM
Other than laws specifying that you cannot have a gun that can shoot more than 1 bullet with 1 trigger. Even 9mm machine guns are illegal "LAREDO, TX—Jose Eduardo Munoz, 28, and Alfredo Israel Zendejo Jr., 22, both Laredo residents and convicted felons, have each been sentenced to serve 10 years in federal prison for illegal possession of a machine gun" So anyway. Sub "paramilitary" I just grabbed from my other thread on finding a rifle that is LEGAL. I'm not here to get a black market gun. Well I've played with my friends ak47 SKS a few times and was not liking how it felt. Seemed like something was off about it. Rifle wise not sure what models they were, but my dad won 3 champs with them. He let me shoot trap when I was younger with 'em and they were quite accurate with great feeling.

April 30, 2012, 06:39 AM
So long as you within the parimeters of the federal laws and follow the state and local guide lines that are required you can file for a Class 3 to get a sub machine gun so long as they are legally registered.

House Amendment 777 to H.R. 4332 to ban the civilian ownership or transfer of any fully-automatic weapon which was not registered by May 19, 1986. However, any such weapon manufactured and registered before the May 19 cutoff could still be legally owned and transferred by civilians.

You cannot own one if you are guilty of any of the following

■Anyone who has been convicted in any court of, a felony punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding 1 year, excluding those crimes punishable by imprisonment related to the regulation of business practices.
■Anyone who is a fugitive from justice.
■Anyone who is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance.
■Anyone who has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to a mental institution.
■Any alien illegally or unlawfully in the United States or an alien admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa. The exception is if the nonimmigrant is in possession of a valid hunting license issued by a US state.
■Anyone who has been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions.
■Anyone who, having been a citizen of the United States, has renounced his or her citizenship.
■Anyone that is subject to a court order that restrains the person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner or child of such intimate partner. (Added in 1996, with the Lautenberg Amendment.)
■Anyone who has been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence. (Added in 1996, with the Lautenberg Amendment)[6]
■A person who is under indictment or information for a crime (misdemeanor) punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding two years cannot lawfully receive a firearm. Such person may continue to lawfully possess firearms obtained prior to the indictment or information, and if cleared or acquitted can receive firearms without restriction.

as far as I know Texas does not have any restrictions on ownership of machine guns. But the misconception of you cant own a machine gun is a myth. (California laws may vary they are funny that way)

April 30, 2012, 06:41 AM
you pay 200.00 per automatic one time fee per gun. Talk to some of the other members here they can tell you what BATF form to use if you so desire to own a machine gun (the form number has always eluded me)

April 30, 2012, 08:38 AM
And who the hell said the Kriss was unreliable?!? :eek:

My buddy picked one up about 3 years ago. And that thing ran BEAUTIFULLY. Not one single malfunction in 1,500 rounds (AFTER you thoroughly clean out the cosmoline)

The only problems I've ever seen or heard about, is when you start getting mags from other manufacturers. As they are extended Glock mags, knockoffs don't work worth a crap

April 30, 2012, 02:24 PM
I sit corrected :P But, that sounds like a LOT of money to just own a auto X_X Sauer in a HK USC vs Kriss Vector range report. Kriss failed to feed 5-15 times due to the firing pin in the vector.

James K
April 30, 2012, 03:37 PM
Pistol caliber carbines/submachineguns still have some use for police and civilians where there is a need to limit the range and power. But most militaries have stopped using them, preferring selective fire carbines that employ the same ammunition as the rifle. If they can get rifle power from a weapon not significantly larger than the classic sub gun and without significantly greater recoil, why bother with 9mm or .45? Which would you rather not be hit by - a 9mm or a 5.56?


April 30, 2012, 11:03 PM
Haha $200 a lot to own a full auto. I guess you have never seen the prices on the guns.

April 30, 2012, 11:46 PM
Dude, 200+250 on taxes alone is a lot for nothing. I could spend that on thousands of other stuff. Not sure if you donate 200 a week but your call. Not all of us are rich. Maybe your just not thinking straight ATM.

May 1, 2012, 09:45 AM
Wow, you're pretty defensive aren't you?

All I was saying was that the $200 for the tax is nothing compared to the minimum you would end up paying for a full auto firearm. It would be at least $3,000 for a MAC and the price just climbs from there.

Rich? No. Not thinking straight? At least I don't go spouting off a bunch of BS about the legality of things before I have any idea what I'm talking about.

May 1, 2012, 12:58 PM
For a machine gun 3000 is cheap. Your not going to expect something with multiple restrictions for to be cheap. And no it wasn't bs since they taught me that at different schools. Your blaming the wrong person here. Not really defensive either, just showing why you arent even giving a response to my original topic. Yet, your trolling here.

May 1, 2012, 01:28 PM
It would appear then the people that taught you the BS are ill informed as well. Not trolling ether. Just responding to your misinformation.

What kind of price range are you looking at? There are some low end pistol caliber carbines that go for a few hundred dollars and all the way up to a several thousand.

May 1, 2012, 02:06 PM
Sorry for arguing. But I was actually told that by multiple police officers. Sadly enough :confused: But not completely sure. There is such a broad spectrum of guns that I dont even know what is what anymore.

May 1, 2012, 02:17 PM
Yeah my old boss had a police officer try to arrest him while he was shooting his legal MG. He told him to go call his Sargent and come back and tell him what he said. The officer was told to apologize and leave him alone.

First things first, what kind of money do you have to spend?

May 1, 2012, 02:22 PM
Was thinking about spending around 2k. Maybe a tad more before tax and all. Thanks again for helping :D

May 1, 2012, 02:32 PM
Well, that leaves open quite a few possibilities.

Do you want something unusual that not a whole lot of people have?

May 1, 2012, 03:03 PM
Something reliable unusual, with the ability to sweep rooms fast.
Was actually thinking on just buying a DSA sa58 instead. With all these new guns popping out of no where. I'm still trying to find a bullpup of some sort.

May 1, 2012, 07:43 PM
I have a DSA sa58, and its definitely nice. The ammo is a little pricey, but mine will eat any cheap crap that I put in it. Im working through a good stockpile of brown bear right now. Its a very nice rifle, but not something I would want to "sweep rooms".

The PTR 91 GI model is pretty nice also, same type of ammo as the FAL clone though.

FS200 rifles are selling for a little less than your price point right now. That would fit the bill as something you could do "sweep rooms" with.

PS90s are nice, but the ammo can be expensive and isn't nearly as common as 223 and the like.

There are also quite a few mp5 clones being offered. The best seems to be vector arms. You might like those.

May 1, 2012, 07:57 PM
Which version of the SA58 did you buy from the website? They have over 12 selections and just looking through them all for the tiniest difference is a pain. I may just end up buying the FAL than secondary a shotgun.

May 1, 2012, 08:18 PM
Well, I purchased the STG58 with the 21 inch barrel and folding bipod.

Most of the sa58s seem to be similar.

Do you want a side folding stock? That is something that cannot be changed later (to my knowledge at least, or not with a great deal of changes).

I personally think with the round, it does not make a lot of sense to get a short 16 barrel, though you will see a nice fireball out of the end.

They make some with a different top cover that has rail on it. You might want to get that if you want to mount a scope.

If you plan on putting a bunch of crap on the front, you can get a quad rail for it also, though I feel like the rifle is generally heavy enough by itself.

May 1, 2012, 08:41 PM
How heavy is a SA58? I didn't even think about the weight till you mentioned it :eek: In a world ends scenario arsenal Ak47/74 or sa58? Was thinking about grabbing the SA58 Para Elite and taking off the flashlight infront.

May 1, 2012, 09:32 PM
My FAL weighs in at about10 pounds and my ak74 is about 7. Unloaded for both.

We don't talk about the end of the world thing here, but as far as a go to rifle, I have no idea which would pick. I have gotten enough ammo and magazines for each rifle I own.

May 1, 2012, 09:51 PM
FAL weighs as much as a socom2?! That is crazy. Gah, cant figure out what gun to buy. Fs2000 is completely overpriced and probably a nogo. FAL is too heavy. PS90 bullets are expensive long run. Scout/socom is also very heavy. Not looking for pistol carbine weapons. GAH X_X. Gotta find a rifle that can be free handed.

May 1, 2012, 10:04 PM
What does free handed mean?

May 1, 2012, 10:06 PM
Not sure what its called to just shoot without mounting the gun on anything. Closest thing I could think of calling it was free handed :P Just aiming and shooting the gun pretty much.

May 1, 2012, 10:10 PM
Oh, that is shooting off hand. You can do that with any of those rifles. That is what they were all originally designed for. If you use a sling it makes it even easier.

May 1, 2012, 10:11 PM
Do you have a local gun store? Go there and see if you can actually look at some of them any hold them and see what you like.

May 1, 2012, 10:15 PM
Carrying a 10 pound rifle seems a bit too much. My arms alone weigh too much to carry along with a 10er all day. Closest gun store is a hour away from here X_X! Firing range is about 1-1.3h

May 1, 2012, 10:25 PM
The best thing I can come up with for you then would be a Daewoo ar100, or k2.

You can get one for about $1300 used, they have a side folding stock, are relatively light at about 8 pounds, use ar15 mags, they function very reliably and you don't see very many of them at all.

May 2, 2012, 08:30 AM
If they're legal where you live, and you're willing to jump through the hoops (similar to full-auto or suppressors), you can look into Short-Barreled Rifles (SBR). Think of these as a 'rifle-caliber pistol' with a shoulder stock.
From Wikipedia: "Short-barreled rifle (SBR) is a legal designation in the United States, referring to a shoulder-fired, rifled firearm with a barrel length of less than 16 inches (40.6 cm) or overall length of less than 26 inches (66.0 cm). In the United States, an SBR is an item regulated by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATFE) as an NFA firearm. In the absence of local laws prohibiting ownership, American civilians may own an SBR provided it is registered with the BATFE, and a $200 tax is paid prior to taking possession of or creating the firearm."

May 2, 2012, 12:18 PM
I wish SBR was legal here in WA ;(. Would have been my first choice on a AR-15 :D

May 2, 2012, 04:50 PM
UnbearablePanda, I understand. SBR's were banned here in Alabama until just a few years ago.

May 2, 2012, 05:08 PM
One option that might work for a pseudo SBR, is a 14.5" barrel with a permanently attached flashhider/muzzle break/compensator. I don't know if WA law covers that but as far as the Feds are concerned as long as it comes out to 16" total with the muzzle device and 26" OAL it's not an SBR/NFA item.

May 2, 2012, 08:04 PM
UnbearablePanda as to submachine gun is more a closer term than sub-paramilitary rifle for what you were looking for. There are many pistol and rifle versions to be had like I mentioned earlier in semi auto. They can and are fun. I should have clarified that earlier I think.

Just fyi on prices for ammo for PS90, most stores and websites have a high price on a box of ammo, but in truth can be found for near the same price as 5.56mm/223 rem. Now is it harder to find heck yeah it is, thus I do not take out my PS90 as much.

May 2, 2012, 08:29 PM
I still say the Kriss issues you mentioned are a very isolated incident. In the years its been out I've never heard a single knock against it, other then someone couldn't see the use for it!

But anywho, instead of a short barrel, have you looked at "pistol" AR's?? I dont know how laws were written where you are, but it'd give you basically a sling mounted rifle-without the stock.....

May 3, 2012, 10:59 AM
love it when people think the P90 and MP7s are new concepts... look at the C96 mauser designed in 1896... the 7.63x25 mauser it fired then was hotter than it is now, more powerful than the 5.7, would be great at defeating armor, though they didnt have it then, came with a shoulder stock which made it as compact to shoulder fire as a P90... and oh yeah, they made select fire versions to turn it into an all out 100+ year old PDW

May 3, 2012, 01:15 PM
Jason I was thinking more modern because of current productions and what I know. C96 would be nice, C&R with original stock could be the way to go. However how I understand is if you have a reproduction stock it must be SBR.

Speaking of older submachine guns, there is the PSH 41s and PSH 43s that were made recently that use the 7.25 tok round that is very much a nice armour piercing round.