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Addicted2Shooting
April 18, 2012, 07:59 PM
I've been wanting to get into long distance shooting for some time now. Having said that, I've been in the market for a precision rifle that has the ability to reach out to great distances.

But before we delve into that, here's a little you should know about me.

I'm the kind of person that appreciates a challenge and therefore I've come to be my own worst critic. I've always strived for success and pushed myslef to extremes to master a variety of skills. As the years have passed, my passion for shooting for fun has grown into what some people have referred to as a 'sickness' :p in terms of striving for perfection when I'm shooting.
While my friends simply like to go out and shoot whatever targets we could come up with, I've always been the one trying to take it to the next level; setting up a variety of complex shots that require fine tuned shooting techniques in order to make the shot.

I've been shooting a .22lr since I was 12 years old. My first rifle was a little single shot(open sights) bolt action sears & roebuck that was my grandfathers in his youth. That rifle proved to be a tac driver as I was nailing cans off a fence with open sights at 30 yards within a year. When I turned 14, my father bought me a bolt action marlin that I was able to perfect my skills with over the course of my teenage years. Throughout school, I've incorporated the art of shooting/firearms into various projects and term papers. I was somewhat 'addicted' to wanting to find out all I could about proper technique and practicing all that I could. Once I was able to group

In the past couple years, I have purchased a bolt action savage mk II fluted/heavy barrel 22 mag and also the .17 HMR.

I have become extremely accurate in shooting 100-300yrds, having very nice groups taking into account windage/elevation and studying bullet drop based on a variety of ammunition. I know how important a quality scope is, and its equally important on knowing how to use it.

Additionally, I have purchased a rem 700 sps tactical heavy barrel in .308 and have a really nice millett mil dot scope. I've recently been shooting very nice groups at 300-450 yards at my local range.

I've bought some land out west, where I can easily practice 1000-1500 yrd shots, but need a weapon to make it happen.

At any rate, I'm looking to expand my horizon, and would like to reach out to greater distance with larger calibers and really take my skill to another level.

brmfan
April 18, 2012, 08:15 PM
Barrett M99 or Armalite AR 50.... Some will say .338 Lapua but if you have the room to go long I say go big as well! :D

kraigwy
April 18, 2012, 11:41 PM
What's wrong with you're Remington for long range shooting?

Spend the extra money on ammo down range learning to read and adjust for conditions.

My best 1000 yard score were fired out of a M1A with a 22 inch barrel.

Bart B.
April 18, 2012, 11:49 PM
When the military folks were testing rifles for their latest sniper weapon, the .300 Win. Mag. shot the most accurate through 1500 yards. But the US Army was addicted to the .338 Lapua Mag and could not reason that its inferior performance meant the snipers who used it were handicapped.

Note that the more recoil a rifle has while the bullet's going down the barrel, the harder it is to shoot accurately. So, I'd suggest using one of the 30 caliber rounds without a belt as belted cases are a nusiance to reload for best accuracy. The .300 RUM and WSM rounds are good enough.

You'll do best by not using actions having a round receiver. Heavy recoiling rifles tend to twist them out of perfect epoxy bedding after a couple hundred shots. Use a receiver with flat sides and bottom; Win. 70's are excellent. However, folks who don't shoot too well may never observe the difference between these two receiver types.

old roper
April 19, 2012, 06:20 AM
Always fun to see what's out there

http://www.onlylongrange.com/ulr.asp

ammo.crafter
April 19, 2012, 06:31 AM
Contact Fred Szablewski of Sabreco, Inc. in Shippack, PA. He makes a rifle that features a Nesika single shot K action with a 6.5mm 30" Krieger 1:8.5" twist four-groove barrel, chambered in 6.5 x 284.

This combination clams great accuracy at 1,000yds plus.

madcratebuilder
April 19, 2012, 06:45 AM
I have purchased a rem 700 sps tactical heavy barrel in .308 and have a really nice millett mil dot scope. I've recently been shooting very nice groups at 300-450 yards at my local range.

Master the 700 at 1k yards before you think about another rifle. Double the yardage you are shooting now more than doubles the challenge.

jmr40
April 19, 2012, 06:46 AM
When the military folks were testing rifles for their latest sniper weapon, the .300 Win. Mag. shot the most accurate through 1500 yards. But the US Army was addicted to the .338 Lapua Mag and could not reason that its inferior performance meant the snipers who used it were handicapped.



The Army is currently in the process of rebarreling all of their 308 sniper rifles to 300 win mag. They toyed with 338 Lapua, but finally did decide on 300 win mag.

The 300 mag is a good round as is the 300 WSM which was recently used to set a new 1000 yard benchrest record. http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2010/09/matt-kline-shoots-2-815-record-at-1000-yards-with-300-wsm/

Bart B.
April 19, 2012, 07:09 AM
jmr40 says the Army is currently in the process of rebarreling all of their 308 sniper rifles to 300 win mag. Are the existing rifles those with the 700 short action?

Regarding the recent 1K-yard record set with a .300 WSM, 30 caliber big case cartridges have shot that well once in a while since the 1960's. The best of the belted ones (.308 Norma Mag, .30-.338 Win. Mag., .30-.338 Keele Mag.) would shoot somewhere under 7/10ths MOA at 1000 yards in a well built rifle. Long range benchrest rifles these days are no better. Any one of them will, on rare occasions, shoot a 2 inch or so group and set a record that excites everyone. But their accuracy one can count on all the time is about 7/10ths MOA. Check out the aggregate records comprising 15 to 60 shots then note the numbers are just averages of several groups. The largest group fired in the aggregate is larger; how much is rarely published. The six 10-shot group NBRSA 1000-yard aggregate record is over 6 inches; that's the average group size. Those 5-shot 2-inch or so records are more luck that reality.

old roper
April 19, 2012, 08:18 AM
Here is some Br 1000 yd records

http://www.pa1000yard.com/hof-recs/records.php

If anyone doesn't thing rifles are better today

If you look at the records for heavy rifle you see that small group but go down to 6 match agg which means that shooter average group for 6 target 10 shot groups was just barely over 5" that's total of 60 shots fired. Next go down to 10 match agg 10 targets 10 shot groups average just over 6" for 100 shots fired.

Also look at the dates of those records.

emcon5
April 19, 2012, 09:43 AM
I have purchased a rem 700 sps tactical heavy barrel in .308 and have a really nice millett mil dot scope

Buy a 20 MOA base to put under you Millett, and buy this:
http://www.amazon.com/Magpul-Dynamics-The-Precision-Rifle/dp/B006NZ93C2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1334845309&sr=8-1

And start handloading, if you don't already.

Despite what some people claim, a big magnum will be no more accurate at long range than a .308. What it will do is be less effected by the wind.

Reading the wind is really all that matters in long range shooting, and all the big magnums or hot 6.5mm rounds will do for you is be a little more forgiving when you mess up your wind calls.

For example, when you call the wind is 60º at 8mph, but it is really 90º at 12, how bad do you miss? I worked this up for another discussion (http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4652962#post4652962), a while back:

At 500 yards with a 6.5-06 (140 SMK @ 2923fps) you are off by 1.5 MOA, which is just under 8 inches. A couple of extreme examples for comparison (which I have wind dope sheets worked up for) are the 30-06 150 FMJ, and .223 55gr FMJ. For the same error, the .30-06 will be off by 2.3 MOA (about a foot) and the .223 will be off by 3.1 MOA (~16").

The .300 mag is comparable to the 6.5-06 in the wind, close enough that the comparison still stands. Naturally the error is higher the farther out you go.

In other words, if you want to really learn to read the wind at long range, shoot the rifle you already have. It will be more obvious when you get the wind call wrong or right. As a beginner, it will be the former more than the latter.

ms6852
April 19, 2012, 10:09 AM
You have a .308 that will get you out to 800 yds, a thousand if you are really good and know what you are doing. I personally like my savage 110 that I modified with a kreiger barrel and a manners stock. It is a 30-06 and will shoot any caliber your .308 shoots further and can maintain supersonic velocities to 1200 yds. I do not know why people gave up on the 30-06 for the 308. The only other caliber that can out perform the 30-06 are magnums at a higher cost to shoot.

emcon5
April 19, 2012, 10:38 AM
You have a .308 that will get you out to 800 yds, a thousand if you are really good and know what you are doing.Nonsense. A .308 can go out to 1000 easily, a mile if you know what you are doing.

The only other caliber that can out perform the 30-06 are magnums at a higher cost to shoot. Or pretty much any 6.5.

Again, all that matters is reading the wind. You will learn to read the wind faster with a .308 than any of the hot 6.5s or big boomers, because the bullet performance won't compensate for screwed up wind calls.

Addicted2Shooting
April 19, 2012, 11:01 AM
I figured there would be some people recommending I stretch the rem 700 out to those greater lengths so I actually proactively put a 20moa base under my millet-mildot scope and intend to work on even greater distances with this setup. Keep in mind this rifle has the 20" heavy barrel, so its a little shorter than most of your other remington 700s. I feel that I can probably do some good up to 600-800 yards with this setup...but I don't really want to be trying to hold over a bunch when I'm working on 1000+ yard shots.

I've already started getting stuff together for doing my own .308 reloads as precision loads will definitely play a huge role at those greater distances.

Nonetheless, I don't want to be restricted by my rifle, or have to be compensating more than necessary for the point of use. (i.e. I'm not going to be shooting 350 yards with a .22lr and trying to calculate for the adjustments)

emcon5
April 19, 2012, 11:08 AM
I don't really want to be trying to hold over a bunch when I'm working on 1000+ yard shots

Your Millet doesn't have an elevation adjustment knob?

Scharfschuetzer
April 19, 2012, 12:29 PM
While getting your 308 supplies, let me recommend the 175 grain Sierra Match King bullets. I've had very good success with them at long range and they are the current bullet issued in the M118LR load that is a proven performer at 1,000 yards. While I haven't used the Hornady or Nozler bullets of this weight, I'm sure that they perform well too. The previous go to bullet, the 168 grain MK, went subsonic in the 308 at about 800 yards in normal atmospheric conditions and thus the above mentioned 800 yard efficiency posts.

For powder and primers, I've used a lot of IMR and H 4895 powder as well as Varget. A lot of the mid range burning powders will work well with the 308, so many others will have a different opinion on this subject. My primers for long range shooting are the Federal large rifle match primers. I've used every brand of case from Lake City army brass to Federal and Winchester for my long range loads. I guess Winchester cases are my case of choice and I generally only neck size them in a collet type (Redding) neck size die.

I too am a big fan of the 30/06 for just about everthing from hunting, cast bullet shooting to long range matches. It will push a 190 grain MK bullet out to 1,000 yards most convincingly. Its performance is measurably better than the 308 at long range and its bore life is similar to the 308. The big magnums can burn the throat out of a barrel fairly fast.

Trajectory, once zeroed is fairly constant other than temperature and head/tail wind consideratinos, but deflection due to wind is dynamic and changes from shot to shot, especially out west where your property is. Make sure your scope or sight has good repeatable adjustments as well as good optics. If you have a mil dot reticle, you can use that for windage hold off.

One of my long range rifles made on a Pre-64 Winchester action in 308. It normally wears a Redfield International aperture rear sight and a Redfield HP front sight.

http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o635/Scharfschuetzer/Waffen/M70.jpg

Bart B.
April 19, 2012, 12:44 PM
Scharfschuetzer says:I too am a big fan of the 30/06. It will push a 190 grain bullet out to 1,000 yards most convincingly. Its performance is measurably better than the 308 at long range, but its bore life is similar to the 308. Measureably better? If so, then why did all the top classified competitors quit using it back in the mid 1960's for Palma matches? Even when both it and the .308 Win. were allowed, it never placed well in competition.

Scharfschuetzer
April 19, 2012, 12:46 PM
I'm not sure why and shooting in only a few Palma Matches (won one of 'em) I used the 308. Your question/statement presupposes that the OP is limited to a 155 grain bullet. In that case, perhaps the 308 is the equal or better than the 30/06. Lord knows that I've seen some pretty impressive scores with the 308 and the Sierra 155 grain Palma bullet.

As the OP is not confined to a 155 grain bullet by Palma matche rules, he can choose any bullet weight he wants. With rifles of equal accuracy, the 190 grain bullet from the Ought Six at the same velocity as the 175 grain bullet from the 308 will give you better performance at long range. In my experience it gets through the wind better than the lighter bullet at similar velocity in the 308 and for me, that is measurably better. The Ought Six, with its greater case capacity seems to handle heavier bullets better than the 308.

My loading log shows a velocity of the 190 grain bullet in my Winchester match rifle in 30/06 at just over 2700 fps and average 10 shot groups of .62." My loads for the same bullet out of my Remington match rifle in 308 show a 200 fps drop in velocity for the same bullet with about equal accuracy. Rifles vary, but this is my experience.

Now, with all that said, the 308 is still a great cartrige, particularly with the 175 grain MK bullet at around 2650 to 2700 fps, and the OP will be well served by it in his quest for long range accuracy.

Bart B.
April 19, 2012, 04:06 PM
Yes, ballistic tables and data show the .30-06's higher muzzle velocity for a given barrel length, peak pressure and bullet give it the wind-bucking and flat trajectory advantage. But the .308 Win. shot 40% more accurate and was the reason why high power target scoring rings got reduced in size back in 1966 for those used through 600 yards and 1973 for the 800 to 1000 yard targets.

The most accurate .30-06 match rifles used in 1966 would hold about 5 to 6 inches at 600 yards. Along comes the .308 shooting 3 to 4 inches at 600 with the same quality rifles, barrels and components which include all bullet weights; even 250-gr. bullets from a .308. Go figure out why a cartridge that's 40% more accurate but deflects 10% more for a given wind will shoot a smaller group on a target from a shoulder fired rifle.

missesalot
April 19, 2012, 04:32 PM
I know a couple guys that are bench rest comp shooters that use the wsm

tobnpr
April 19, 2012, 05:34 PM
There's a BIG difference between shooting 1000, and 1500 or more.

There are many choices that can be effective at the former. Not many at the latter.

You should decide first, if 1500 and further- true ELR shooting- is your intended game before making a decision.

I don't necessarily agree that you need to master 1000 first with another weapon. Yeah, it might be cheaper trigger time, but I'd pick the one that'll deliver on the end game and work with it.

Suggest you frequent this forum, ELR is a specialized area and there are relatively few that have the hardware- and the real estate- to make it a reality. It's one thing to talk theory...

http://snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=postlist&Board=5&page=1

50 shooter
April 20, 2012, 01:11 PM
Seeing how someone posted about 50 BMG and didn't add anything...

When I first bought mine 10+ years ago when .50's were just starting to become popular, guys were shooting 100-500 yards. I couldn't believe it, the only people shooting 1000 yards were competition shooters. Being that I live out in the west and have always gone out to the desert to "really" shoot, it was a no brainer to bring the .50 out and shoot it.

This is looking down range where we go.
http://www.daplane.com/50bmg/ds2006/spring/dss06_2ktgt71.jpg

The furthest target is 2000 yards, we usually set them from 500, 1K, 1500, 1 mile and 2K. Since I started bringing other 50 Shooters out to this spot guys really get a sense of how much more fun it is to see what the 50 BMG is capable of doing. This is also when they figure out that you need match grade bullets to get any decent type of accuracy past 1K yards. Sure all of the .416 Barrett, 408 CheyTac whatever rounds like to say that they're stuff is better then the 50 BMG. What they don't tell you is that they're using match grade bullets against a standard 50 BMG ball round. When you load up 50 BMG match rounds they'll keep up with anything on the market. I just wish they would compare apples to apples instead of "bending" the truth to sell you a rifle.

This is looking through a Nightforce scope at the 2000 yard target.
http://www.daplane.com/50bmg/ds2006/spring/dss06_2ktgt72.jpg

As for accuracy, the world record for 50 BMG is right about 2" at 1000 yards. I don't keep up on the competition side of 50 shooting so someone might've shot a group smaller. You can check out the Fifty Caliber Shooters Assoc. website to see what's posted.

These are why I love to shoot in the desert.
http://www.daplane.com/50bmg/ds2006/spring/dss06_setup62.jpg

http://www.daplane.com/50bmg/ds2006/spring/dss06_hmv32.jpg

brotus2
April 20, 2012, 06:34 PM
I just started shooting F Class at 1000 yards about six months ago. I have shot in five matches so far. Usually, there are around 40 shooters for each match. Many of the 40 are quite accomplished veteran shooters at that distance. My lowest finish has been number 32 and my highest finish has been 18.

My rifle: 1952 Winchester Model 70 in 270 Winchester. It has a Nikon Monarch 8-32X50 sitting on an EGW 40 MOA base and EGW Xhigh rings. I shoot a Hornady 155 grain Amax using Reloder 22 powder.

Like they say - the gun counts!

Irish B
April 20, 2012, 06:55 PM
Barrett .416 or Cheytac .408 (or even necked down to .375). The top two sniper rifles imho. More practically id look into .270 for something light flat and long. People can disagree all they want but my sniper mosin shoots out really far and straight. I've made nice clean groups at well past 450 yards.

emcon5
April 20, 2012, 07:52 PM
All these are much more intelligent options than using the perfectly capable rifle he already owns.......;)

50 shooter
April 20, 2012, 08:19 PM
But he asked the question and .308 isn't going to make 2000 yards unless it has a jet pack strapped to It's ass.:D

emcon5
April 20, 2012, 11:27 PM
Well, he didn't say 2000, he said 1000-1500, which is a long way, but not beyond the capability of the .308. Watch the Magpull DVD I linked earlier, you will see them shooting .308 at a mile, and making hits.

It is all about solid fundamentals, and reading the wind.

You don't need a 338-Eargasplitten-Loudenboomer to shoot those ranges, you need skill, and the only way to get it is trigger time, preferably with competent instruction.

BIG P
April 20, 2012, 11:28 PM
The 3ooWM is my choice,With a little time & effort it can be a Beast.

Addicted2Shooting
April 20, 2012, 11:57 PM
I think some people miss the point...If I wanted to hold a .22 rifle up in the air and calculate where it would drop on top of my target's head, I would do that :D

True or false, connecting with a target at 1000-1500 yards will be just as easy with my .308 setup as it would with say a 338 or 50 or anything else for that matter?

That's what I'm saying.

Now, I'll be shooting 700-850 yards this weekend with my .308
I'll report back and let you know how it goes. I really don't see me having tremendous success at distances of 1000 yards+ with my current rig.

Not saying it can't be done, but I shoot for consistency, and I think a 1000 yard shot with my current .308 is pushing it to say the least

bamaranger
April 21, 2012, 12:37 AM
Well the F-T/R crowd (me included) shoots .308 to 1000 regularly. At 1000 yds, the wind is a big factor, but good shots do quite well. (I'm not in that group).

Somebody asked about "What's wrong with your Rem .308" and I'll risk telling you. Get a better scope. I don't know that I have never seen a Millet, on a match firing line. Start somewhere along the lines of a Nikon Monarch X or a Burris XTR and go up from there . The Nikon has limited MOA and only goes to 16x, but a twenty degree base should easily get you to 1000, even with the limited MOA adjustment on the Nikon. BTW, how many MOA of elevation is on the Millet, just for giggles and grins?

I did not read all posts, but are you reloading? I can't imagine getting everything out of your .308 that it is capable of w/o doing so. And the cost would be high for all the shooting you will be doing. I have never seen anybody shoot factory ammo at 1000 in F-T/R, but have seen some in ATC mid range matches. (3-5-600) .

Good luck. Long range gives me fits, but I keep going back.

emcon5
April 21, 2012, 01:34 AM
I think some people miss the point Yeah. You got a mirror handy?;)

Lets have a look at what you said in your first post, (emphasis added)
I'm the kind of person that appreciates a challenge and therefore I've come to be my own worst critic. I've always strived for success and pushed myslef to extremes to master a variety of skills. As the years have passed, my passion for shooting for fun has grown into what some people have referred to as a 'sickness' in terms of striving for perfection when I'm shooting.
While my friends simply like to go out and shoot whatever targets we could come up with, I've always been the one trying to take it to the next level; setting up a variety of complex shots that require fine tuned shooting techniques in order to make the shot.

At any rate, I'm looking to expand my horizon, and would like to reach out to greater distance with larger calibers and really take my skill to another level.

If you really want to "master" long range shooting, and "take your skill to the next level", the gear you have is not going to hold you back.

True or false, connecting with a target at 1000-1500 yards will be just as easy with my .308 setup as it would with say a 338 or 50 or anything else for that matter?False, of course. Do you want to learn to be a good shot, or do you want easier?

At 1000 yards, using the same missed wind call I mentioned above, You call the wind 60º at 8mph, it is really 90º at 12 mph. I am using my LR Rig, compared to what is possible with yours, a monster .30 Magnum, and a .50 BMG

.308 Win, 190 SMK @ 2500 FPS your wind will be off by 4.8 MOA or 50 inches.
6.5-06 140 SMK @ 2900 FPS, your wind will be off by 3.9 MOA, or 40 inches.
.30-378 WbyMag, 240gr SMK @ 2900 FPS your wind will be off by 2.6 MOA, or 27 inches.
50 BMG, 750 AMAX @ 2600 FPS, your wind will be off by 1.7 MOA, or 18 inches.

So yes, when you screw up the wind call, you won't be as far off target with the better LR rounds, but at the expense of punishing recoil, short barrel life, and fully 2X the powder charge for the .30-378 or 5X for the .50 (not to mention $2 per bullet).

When you get the wind right though, the result is the same if you are using a .308 or a 50 BMG, a hit. A .308 is just fine for 1000 yards, and capable of farther.

And frankly, if you can't shoot your rifle at 800 yards, it isn't the fault of the rifle. Hell, I shot a match to 800 yards with a Mosin Nagant with surplus military ammo and did tolerably well. My buddy shot the same match with a K98k and surplus ammo, the first time he had fired a rifle since he left the Army in the early 1990s and he did just fine as well.

It isn't quite clear from your posts, what sort of LR shooting are you planning on doing? Target shooting (for score) shooting groups, just ringing steel? What is your goal?

5RWill
April 21, 2012, 02:50 AM
What's wrong with you're Remington for long range shooting?

Spend the extra money on ammo down range learning to read and adjust for conditions.

My best 1000 yard score were fired out of a M1A with a 22 inch barrel.


This ^ spend more time shooting then progress in equipment. As for you shooting your .308 out to 1000yds, people do it all the time, keeping it supersonic is the challenge. Then the rest will come in to play. What are you running? I don't think you'll have much trouble unless your shooting Nosler or sierra 168grSMK HPBTs in which the steep boattail causes them to lose stability approaching sub sonic speeds.

Right now for instance my .308 load around here stays supersonic out to 1200yds given the proper conditions.

berger 175gr BT LR
44gr Varget
Fed 210m
Nosler CC brass
COL 2.810
@ 2618fps


Well, he didn't say 2000, he said 1000-1500, which is a long way, but not beyond the capability of the .308. Watch the Magpull DVD I linked earlier, you will see them shooting .308 at a mile, and making hits.

It is all about solid fundamentals, and reading the wind.


Travis was also 3600MSL :rolleyes:

Bart B.
April 21, 2012, 07:12 AM
emcon5, it's clear to me that you lack some fundamental knowledge of the shooting sports' equipment and terminology. Here's stuff that may help and feel you out.

First off, a minute of angle in the shooting sports has been exactly 1 inch per hundred yards since the early 1900's. If you choose to use the trig value, then so be it but it's confusing to those who use the traditional language.

Second, you appear ignorant of why folks started using milder recoiling 26 caliber rifles for long range matches where only hand-held shoulder-fired rifles are allowed and gave up the 30 caliber magnums shooting flatter and bucking the wind better. Muzzle brakes on the big guns do not make them easier to shoot accurately; when they do their stuff, it's too late 'cause the accuracy-robbing thing's already happened. Which is why a good shot with a .308 Win. will shoot straighter hand-holding the rifle shooting off the shoulder at long range than an equally good shot with a 50 caliber rifle. The same reason's why folks shooting the milder .300 Win. Mag. did better than those shooting the much more powerful and wind bucking .338 Lapua Mag. at 1500 yards in the military sniper rifle qualification stages. If you know why, then explain it. I'm curious; others may not be.

thickstrings
April 21, 2012, 07:52 AM
Do yourself a favor and look at the 6.5x47 or the 6.5 creedmoor....near 300win. mag. ballistics with less recoil than a .308.

old roper
April 21, 2012, 09:07 AM
Here is copy of the F-Class rules on LR shooting

http://www.nrahq.org/compete/RuleBooks/HPR/hpr-w22.pdf

If you look number of shots fired @ 1000yds you see 15 or 20 the top score is 150-15x and 200-20x.

Bart B got a question I can look up and see world records for the groups can you post site I can see top records on LR score records for the F-Class? Is there any 200-20x or 150-15x record shot?

emcon5
April 21, 2012, 11:29 AM
emcon5, it's clear to me that you lack some fundamental knowledge of the shooting sports' equipment and terminology. Here's stuff that may help and feel you out.OK. Thanks. :rolleyes:

First off, a minute of angle in the shooting sports has been exactly 1 inch per hundred yards since the early 1900's. If you choose to use the trig value, then so be it but it's confusing to those who use the traditional language.A Minute of Angle/Arc is 1.047" at 100 yards, which is close enough to 1" that it doesn't really matter. At 1000 yards it becomes 10.47 inches, which is still pretty close, but enough difference it could be noticed (but probably not by me). If you are telling me that all the scope manufacturers adjustments are based off .995 MOA instead of 1 MOA, I will take you word for it.


Second, you appear ignorant of why folks started using milder recoiling 26 caliber rifles for long range matches where only hand-held shoulder-fired rifles are allowed and gave up the 30 caliber magnums shooting flatter and bucking the wind better.Ignorant huh? That is probably why my F-Class/any-any/LR Varmint rig isn't a 6.5. Oh, Wait, It is a 6.5-06. How in the world did that happen in my ignorance? Must have been an accident.

Muzzle brakes on the big guns do not make them easier to shoot accurately; when they do their stuff, it's too late 'cause the accuracy-robbing thing's already happened. When did I say anything at all about muzzle brakes? Where did anyone say anything about muzzle brakes? (Hint, the first person to mention them at all is some guy named Bart.)

Which is why a good shot with a .308 Win. will shoot straighter hand-holding the rifle shooting off the shoulder at long range than an equally good shot with a 50 caliber rifle. The same reason's why folks shooting the milder .300 Win. Mag. did better than those shooting the much more powerful and wind bucking .338 Lapua Mag. at 1500 yards in the military sniper rifle qualification stages. If you know why, then explain it. I'm curious; others may not be.

You do realize I am telling him to shoot the gun he already has, right? You realize I have said that in every post in this thread I have made, right?

He has never shot long range, and people are telling him to buy a fricking CheyTac or a 50 BMG, when he already owns a gun capable of shooting the distances he is talking about. The UK Fullbore guys compete with .308 at 1200 yards, and I remember on the fullbore list discussions of shooting out to 2400 yards (the range is on an island, I don't recall the name, but there was an article on it in Precision Shooting about 15 years ago).

It is true that there are lots of cartridges better than the .308 for long range shooting, I gave numbers for wind drift based on missing a wind call for a number of cartridges so he has a reasonable metric to compare by how much. What he does with that information is up to him. The fact remains, they aren't going to make him any better of a rifleman, or any better at reading the wind, they will just lessen the likelihood of a miss if he gets the wind wrong.

If you want to get good at reading the wind, shoot the .308, because when you get it wrong, you will know it. There will be no doubt.

We still have no idea what kind of shooting he wants to do.

Travis was also 3600MSL OK. I recall they are in West Texas some where, so that sounds about right. My closest 1000 yard range is about 4400MSL. The OP said in his first post he bought some land out west, where I can easily practice 1000-1500 yrd shots. He did not say where, but if "out west" is anywhere between the Rockies and the Sierras his piece of land will probably be that altitude or higher.

50 shooter
April 21, 2012, 11:48 AM
I thought this thread was going pretty good, no need to start with the "he said, he said" stuff. As far as that goes, I thought that Emcon was giving him good advice.

I threw the .50 in there as it does well at long ranges, you can buy a few different rifles under $3K that do well in the accuracy dept. and when you reload, the cost keeps shooting it worthwhile.

5RWill
April 21, 2012, 12:17 PM
Indeed the 50 and .338 are expensive monsters :(

mapsjanhere
April 21, 2012, 12:47 PM
My 1000 yard rifle is a 300 RUM, loaded with 210 Berger VLD. One day I will make it up to Raton to actually shoot 1000 yards ...

Bart B.
April 21, 2012, 03:46 PM
emcon5 says:If you are telling me that all the scope manufacturers adjustments are based off .995 MOA instead of 1 MOA, I will take you word for it.That's how they started a hundred years ago or so.

In the USA, externally adjusted scopes (Sidle, Litschert, Unertl, Fecker, Lyman and later Remington, El Monte and a few others I now forget) all had their bases 7.2 inches apart. 4 clicks on the turrets moved the scope exactly .002000" at that point. That's 1/3600th of 7.2 inches and there's 3600 inches in a hundred yards. 'Twas and still is easy to use and do.

Aperture sights used on USA target rifles had 40 thread per inch adjustment screws on them. 1/3 of a turn moved the scope exactly.008333 inch. And that's exactly 1/3600th of the standard metallic sight radius; distance between rear aperture and front sight.

This 1 inch per hundred yards also worked wel with bullseye targets for both smallbore and high power rifles; their scoring rings were spaced in even inch intervals. Plus, it was easy for folks to do the mental math which was close enough for how it was used.

Nowadays the trigonometric and USA shooting sports MOA stuff gets confusing. Same thing with sights adusted in mils. With four different systems around the world for how much of an arc one mil subtends is nothing short of horrible.

For the same reason, telescopic sight makers could not get the average rifle shooter to understand that parallax was not adjustable and only happened when his eye was off the optical axis of the scope and its front objective lens wasn't focused on the target, they started calling the act of focusing a scope on the target to adjusting parallax.

If you want to get good at reading the wind, shoot the .308, because when you get it wrong, you will know it. There will be no doubt.I've wore out four 7.62 NATO barrels in Garands shooting high power matches on a military rifle team. Wore out fifteen more. 308 barrrels, one .264 Win. Mag. barrel and four .30-.338 Win. Mag. barrels in bolt action rifles shooting on local, state, national and even a couple of USA international Palma rifle teams. Got NRA classified at the top as a Long Range High Master with the top 2% of all folks shooting long range. Won more than my share of matches over the years.

You aren't ignorant, but you came across that way. That aside, good shooting anyway. But after you posted all the wind drift data for several cartridges I though I would mention some reasoning behind why those flat-shooting heavy-kickers are not the best thing for shooting hand held off ones shoulder.

Bart B.
April 21, 2012, 03:57 PM
Old Roper, check out this section on the NRA's web site:

http://www.nrahq.org/compete/natl_records.asp

I don't thing there's any perfect possibles (all points and Xes possible) shot in F class.

CCCLVII
April 21, 2012, 04:07 PM
I own a Serbu 50BFG with a 30 inch barrel. It is a single shot that shoots the 50BMG round. I have taken out to the mile shoots. I have never won (or even did really well) but I feel the rifle is very able to shoot accurately at that range.

The main problem is I don't think I am able to shoot at that range, the rifle is very capable. It could also be my cheep scope (Burris) but I have a feeling that its more my fault than the scope too.

tobnpr
April 21, 2012, 04:35 PM
I think some people miss the point...If I wanted to hold a .22 rifle up in the air and calculate where it would drop on top of my target's head, I would do that

True or false, connecting with a target at 1000-1500 yards will be just as easy with my .308 setup as it would with say a 338 or 50 or anything else for that matter?

False, but you already know that.
Higher BC, greater velocity translate to less flight time and less time for external influences to affect bullet flight.

Unquestionably, the faster you can get the bullet to the target with the least amount of wind drift will increase your odds of connecting with the target, right?

The .308 is a great all-around round, but I would not consider it for 1500 yard engagements. I'm sure it would be a challenge to keep even a VLD bullet supersonic at that range, but I haven't run any numbers.

Bart B.
April 21, 2012, 06:44 PM
tobnpr claims:Unquestionably, the faster you can get the bullet to the target with the least amount of wind drift will increase your odds of connecting with the target, right?Yes, but only up to the point where the rifle's recoil gets unmanagable that it moves the sights off target too far while the bullet's going down the barrel. There's two situations at hand, here.

First, a rifle shot in free recoil like most of the long range benchrest rigs has no real problems with recoil. The flattest shooting wind buckingest bullets have a lot of recoil. These rifles don't touch people while they're recoiling except for their 2-ounce trigger touching only the fore finger of the shooter. But when the rifle moves from it and is not hampered nor altered by the shooter, they'll shoot really tiny groups.

Second, when the rifle's against ones shoulder and it's held in near death grip forces, us humans are not repeatable in doing this. While the sights are perfectly aligned on the target when the firing pin strikes the primer, the subsequent recoil while the bullet goes down the barrel move the rifle around inconsistantly and accuracy suffers. And this is compounded as trigger pull weight goes up. A 4-ounce triggers easier to shoot accurately than a 4-pound one. Few people can operate a 4-pound trigger exactly the same way for each shot.

Then there's the person shooting 155-gr. bullets a .308 Win. with aperture sights on an iron sighted Palma rifle with a 3.5-pound (regulation) trigger kicking the pants off his buddy shooting a .300 Rem. Ultra Mag. pushing out 220 grain bullets under a 20X scope sight cause his buddy can't hold the rifle the same way for each shot nor can he dope the wind correctly through his spotting scope.

There's a lot more to putting your first shot on (a small) target than humongus exterior ballistics. I don't think there's more than 4 or 5 people in the USA that will consistantly put their first shot inside a 10-inch circle at 1000 yards from any rifle and cartridge combination in all atmospheric conditions.

5RWill
April 21, 2012, 07:01 PM
Bart, your still referring to offhand right?

old roper
April 21, 2012, 07:25 PM
I'm kind of lost as to what the OP was asking?

5RWill
April 21, 2012, 09:35 PM
I thought he was wanting to know if he could get started off into LR shooting with the .308 he has..

trg42wraglefragle
April 21, 2012, 09:50 PM
Look at the ballistics off the 6.5 and 7mm cartridges.
I would take one of them over 300winmag, the 300wm puts more energy on target but that's it, the smaller faster higher BC bullets tend to do better than 300wm in every aspect.

Remember bullet weight is not what makes a bullet goo in the wind, its the BC, and for BC/weight ratio the 7mms are very hard to beat.
Look at Bergers website and look through the list of Target bullets and you'l find that the 170/180gr 7mm projectiles have better BCs than the 30cals until you get up to around 220gr, you then have to push the bullet as fast as you would've got the 7mms, and you'l find your in 300RUM territory and your looking at huge recoil, huge cost and low barrel life.

I'd stick with 308 out to 1000yrds, past that I'd probably go with a 7mm something, probably 284 Winchester.

Past that 338 Lapua.
50cal is basically useless for what you'd want, extra cost, weight and recoil for what you want.
408 Cheytac and 416 Barrett disappeared about as fast as they arrived, so they aren't that common so are very expensive.

5RWill
April 22, 2012, 12:15 AM
Since weight/mass directly contributes to BC, increasing mass increases BC. So weight/mass does directly effect wind performance.

Ex.
The question is, how much velocity can you give up with a higher BC bullet, and still have less lag time? We can get a rough idea about this from looking at Table 1. As a general rule, you can go about 496 fps slower for every +0.100 counts of BC, and match wind deflection. For example, our benchmark 142 gr bullet going 2950 fps (BC = .565) has 70 inches of wind deflection in a 10 mph crosswind at 1000 yards. What speed does a heavier bullet having a BC of 0.5964 need to match the wind drift of the benchmark? Well, thereís 0.031 difference between the BCís, so .31 x 496 fps = 154 fps. So a bullet with a BC of 0.596 only needs to have a muzzle velocity of 2950 fps ñ 154 fps = 2796 fps in order to match the wind deflection of the lighter faster benchmark. This compares well with the 2800 fps in Table 1
The Nature of Scale (http://www.appliedballisticsllc.com/index_files/Understanding_part1.pdf)
Practical Considerations and Decision Making (http://www.appliedballisticsllc.com/index_files/Understanding_part2.pdf)

emcon5
April 22, 2012, 12:41 AM
I thought he was wanting to know if he could get started off into LR shooting with the .308 he has.. If I was a cynical fella, I would say he is trying to get some help rationalizing a reason to buy a nice new expensive Long Range rig. ;)

We still don't know what type of shooting he is wanting to do.

5RWill
April 22, 2012, 01:20 AM
In that case.. you only live once :D

Bart B.
April 22, 2012, 06:39 AM
trg42wraglefragle suggests:Look at the ballistics off the 6.5 and 7mm cartridges. I would take one of them over 300winmag, the 300wm puts more energy on target but that's it, the smaller faster higher BC bullets tend to do better than 300wm in every aspect.Is there any 6.5mm or 7mm bullet that has a higher peak BC than Sierra's 30 caliber 240-gr. HPMK bullet with .711? Their 142-gr. 6.5mm has a BC of .595. Their 180-gr. 7mm has a BC of .660.

Bart B.
April 22, 2012, 06:55 AM
Blackops_2 asks me:Bart, your still referring to offhand right?Wrong. But there is more bore axis angular movement in offhand during barrel time than other field shooting positions. It's easy to see how much by just looking at the angle between line of sight and bore axis in a centerfire revolver or both barrels in a 45+ caliber double rifle. 'Tis hard to see that difference in bolt action rifles.

Do you know why two people shooting the same firearm and ammo will have different sight settings to zero at a given range? It ain't 'cause they look through the sights differently; a popular myth.

old roper
April 22, 2012, 07:37 AM
I guess some haven't heard of the New 7mm 195gr Berger bullet yet here a quote

Whew!!! New Berger 7mm 195 gr Hybrid

Quote from Eric Stecker @ Berger

"It has an estimated averaged G1 BC of .794 and a G7 BC of .406. For those who understand such things this bullet has a G7 form factor of .850. For those who don't know what that means it means that this bullet is the slickest (in terms of velocity retention) on the planet.

here some more high BC 7mm bullets

http://www.matrixballistics.com/.284-Caliber-rifle-bullets.html

Bart B.
April 22, 2012, 09:41 AM
Old Roper, I've not heard of those bullets. But they do have potential.

Problem is, in my opinion, unless their in-flight BC's are determined by time of flight measurements between two points in four or five velocity bands then the same software calculates BC from that data, a valid comparison's impossible. There's a lot of "rubber rulers" out there measuring/calculating BC and I don't think there's an industry standard that every one uses.

mnhntr
April 22, 2012, 09:46 AM
Your .308 will do 1000-1200 with the right ammo. If you want something a little more flat try any of the 6.5s. If you want to make it easier but more expensive get a .338.

old roper
April 22, 2012, 11:18 AM
Bart B, I'm surprised your questioning the BC on those Berger bullets since you have had chance to ask Eric Stecker from Berger about them.

You are this Bart B

Bart B is offline
Platinum Member

Bart B.
April 22, 2012, 01:49 PM
Old Roper, I asked Berger some time ago about their BC calculations in detail. They do time ther bullets between points but they never told me what software they use to interpret the numbers. It may well be proprietary and different than what their web site offers free to consumers.

Most interesting is all bullets don't go through the air with the same BC. There's easily a 20% spread (sometimes more) in BC's a bullet has enroute to a 1000 yard target for 3 or 4 velocity bands. Berger lists only 1 BC and their software made availble online allows only one BC to be entered. Sierra Bullets allows for several velocity bands and each band's BC for all their bullets.

Folks can form their own opinions which way is best to accurately determine BC as well as calculate trajectory for establishing bullet drop for getting sight zeros.

old roper
April 22, 2012, 02:41 PM
Bart B, So your saying you never seen the post about the 195gr Berger bullets and your not the Bart B that post on LR hunting site. OK

5RWill
April 22, 2012, 02:42 PM
I've seen the 195gr hybrids on the hide, the form factor is ridiculous. As for the credit of BC, i trust Bryan as his calculations, recordings, and results in matches reflect that his findings are accurate. BTW Bryan is Berger's Ballistician that is where they aquire their G7 BCs.

emcon5
April 22, 2012, 02:53 PM
From the quote:
"It has an estimated averaged G1 BC of .794"

I am going to go out on a limb and say they average the BC based on real world performance.

5RWill
April 22, 2012, 03:17 PM
They do many test including test firing.

Ballistic Coefficient Testing (http://www.appliedballisticsllc.com/bctesting2.html)
Ballistic Coefficient Testing Continued. (http://www.appliedballisticsllc.com/bctesting22.html)

Bart B.
April 22, 2012, 10:30 PM
old roper:Bart B, So your saying you never seen the post about the 195gr Berger bullets and your not the Bart B that post on LR hunting site.I don't remember seeing a post on 195 bergers. Please post a link to that then I'll check it out.

But I am that person on LRH. I'll refresh my memory after checking out the LRH site.

trg42wraglefragle
April 22, 2012, 11:03 PM
trg42wraglefragle suggests:
Quote:
Look at the ballistics off the 6.5 and 7mm cartridges. I would take one of them over 300winmag, the 300wm puts more energy on target but that's it, the smaller faster higher BC bullets tend to do better than 300wm in every aspect.
Is there any 6.5mm or 7mm bullet that has a higher peak BC than Sierra's 30 caliber 240-gr. HPMK bullet with .711? Their 142-gr. 6.5mm has a BC of .595. Their 180-gr. 7mm has a BC of .660.

According to Bergers website the 180s get up to .674.
But in the rest of my post I said that unless you can send them at decent velocity the extra BC isn't worth it.
Therefor you need a bigger 30cal cartridge, which will in turn cost more to feed and the bigger 30cals tend to burn barrels very fast.
Yes some 6.5s/7mms will burn barrels fast too eg 6.5-284, but some of them don't.

Jim Watson
April 22, 2012, 11:10 PM
I was thinking that the reason Berger was now giving G7 BCs was that they were based on a bullet profile closer to VLD and other sharp spitzer boattails so as to not need the "velocity band" kluge that Sierra uses to make a blunt flatbase ballistic chart work with SMKs.

The reason other bulletmakers don't use G7 is because the number is lower than even a poorly fitted G1, which makes for less impressive advertising.

Bart B.
April 23, 2012, 12:00 PM
Watched a test some years ago comparing Berger's 30 caliber 185 VLD against Sierra's 190 HPMK. 20 or more rounds were fired alternately so bore fouling and temperature were virtually identical for each pair of shots. Both left the .308 Winchester 26 inch test barrel at about 2560 fps. Two chronographs were used; one 15 feet in front of the muzzle and another 15 feet in front of the 1000 yard target. Average velocity difference down range between these bullets was 50 to 60 fps. The Sierras went through the 1/4" thick foil-covered foam boards at 998 yards the fastest.

old roper
April 23, 2012, 12:38 PM
Bart B here is the post on 7mm 195gr bullet

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f19/berger-introduce-7mm-195-gr-eol-hybrid-hunting-bullet-85792/

Here something else that started on LR

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2011/07/30-caliber-vs-7mm-for-long-range-litz-offers-analysis/

tobnpr
April 23, 2012, 08:08 PM
I'm re-barreling my 7-08 to an 8 twist to handle the 162 Amax.
0.625 BC...very impressive for that weight bullet, light enough to push from a .308 cartridge. Even with the heavier 168 SMK it's less than a 0.5.

I bet it would really kick some azz from a 7mm magnum or SAUM.

RamItOne
April 23, 2012, 08:37 PM
6.5x284 is an interesting round


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrPQjJDkn0M&feature=youtube_gdata_player

5RWill
April 23, 2012, 10:15 PM
I like the 6.5x284 but the .284 is just all around superior IMO.

trg42wraglefragle
April 24, 2012, 01:18 AM
I like the 6.5x284 but the .284 is just all around superior IMO.

Not true, 6.5x284 will burn out barrels quicker.

Annoying thing is you can buy Lapua brass in 6.5-284 but not 284, which is kind of ironic, but annoyingly ironic if you have a 284.

5RWill
April 24, 2012, 08:21 AM
Not true, 6.5x284 will burn out barrels quicker.


? I said the .284 is superior to the 6.5x284...

old roper
April 24, 2012, 09:01 AM
trg42wraglefragle, what brass are you using for your 284? You can neck up 6.5x284 brass to 7mm and use that.

Bart B.
April 24, 2012, 03:43 PM
old roper mentions:Bart B here is the post on 7mm 195gr bullet

http://www.longrangehunting.com/foru...-bullet-85792/

Here something else that started on LR

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...fers-analysis/I remember seeing the LRH post but never looked at its posts.

Never seen the one on Accurate Shooter before.

============================

Interesting comments comparing the 6.5x.284 with the .284 Win. While the 6.5 version will wear out barrels quicker and get perhaps 10% barrel life, it's better for shoulder fired accuracy issues as it's got less recoil during barrel time. And that's why the 6.5x.284's been so popular and successful in long range prone matches.

jmr40
April 24, 2012, 04:31 PM
jmr40 says the Army is currently in the process of rebarreling all of their 308 sniper rifles to 300 win mag. Are the existing rifles those with the 700 short action?



The Army 308 sniper rifles are built on long actions making the conversion possible. The USMC 308 sniper rifles are built on short actions making such a conversion impossible

trg42wraglefragle
April 24, 2012, 05:03 PM
I should've put a :D after the barrel burning comment.

I don't have a 284 but my shooting mate is and hes using Lapua brass.
A bit of a pain having to neck turn after you size it up, at least you only do it once.

old roper
April 24, 2012, 06:48 PM
I think this rifle still holds F-Class record

http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek088.html

Berger 195gr bullets should be out in june and BC should be pretty close. lots of good 7mm bullets

Addicted2Shooting
April 24, 2012, 07:17 PM
I had a chance to do some shooting this past weekend with my Remington 700 sps tactical heavy barrel .308.
This is the first opportunity I've had to shoot at these distances, and so I was quite pleased with my accuracy.
Distance = 860 yards
Rounds = 20 Hornady superperformance 178gr BTHP
Intermittent Crosswind = 8-10mph
Target = Fullsized steel silhoutte

With crosshairs dead center mass, my first two shots landed about 2" low and 3" right in a 4.25" group. I made the necessary adjustments and the next 3 shots were center mass right on target in a 4.75" group.
I fired 5 more shots center mass, with a group right at 5". Being as how I was getting decent groups at this distance, I decided to put the next 10 shots all in the head.
The next five rounds were headshots aiming for the bridge on the nose in a group of 3.75" with 1 flyer low right in the chin.
Five more shots aimed at the forehead area landed in a group of 4.50" right on target.

Now, I don't know how well these groups stack up to the 'norm' of long distance shooting...whether its, poor, good, great, or exceptional. I tend to think that for being my first attempt at this distance that I did great. The way I look at it, I could have had kill shots on my target 18 out of 20 times at 860 yards.

So, having stretched my current rifle to greater distances, I am eager to see if I can tighten up the groups even more. I would like feedback on my performance, so I know what I should be shooting for next go around this weekend.

Thanks

Bart B.
April 24, 2012, 10:42 PM
The accuracy you've got looks pretty darned good. Here's something you can compare it to.

The 1000 yard benchrest rifles holding records for 6 or 10 groups fired have an average group size of a bit over 6 inches. And the conditions they're shot in are pretty good, too. As the benchrest folks don't like to let the rest of us know what their bigger group sizes are, one has to interpolate what they most likely are. Which means with the average of 10 groups includes some that are larger than the average. Statistically, the biggest ones will be about 50% larger; around 9 inches. Realistically, the big one could be even larger and the smallest one very small. Generally speaking, these record holding rifles and their ammo shoot about about 8 to 9 inches at 1000 yards (8 to 9 tenths MOA) and a small percentage of their groups are down in the 2 to 3 inch range; these are the ones that when fired in single group matches win them and sometimes set records.

At 860 yards, 9/10ths MOA is 7.74 inches. 5 inch groups at 860 yards hang in there very well with the best of them.

Jim Watson
April 24, 2012, 11:03 PM
My only Long Range experience is in F class.
The ten ring on an F target is one MOA, the X ring 1/2 MOA.
So five shots in 5 inches well centered at 860 yards would be a score of 50 - 4x or thereabouts, assuming they printed a target for that range. (But then a real match is 20 consecutive shots after sighters.)

Your present rifle has a lot of potential and you don't have to spend a lot of money unless you are just looking for an excuse to buy a new one.

Addicted2Shooting
April 24, 2012, 11:06 PM
Awesome! I was thinking that my groups were at least pretty good. I would really like to see what I can do when the wind is a little less. Hopefully next weekend will prove to be interesting as well now that I've got a few shots under my belt. I know there is a science to the calculations and I rely mainly on that, but does anyone else ever get the gut instinct that tells you to compensate this or that at the last second? I found myself dialing in, but then holding off target when the wind would change ever so slightly.

Clark
April 25, 2012, 12:18 AM
Bart B.

Watched a test some years ago comparing Berger's 30 caliber 185 VLD against Sierra's 190 HPMK. 20 or more rounds were fired alternately so bore fouling and temperature were virtually identical for each pair of shots. Both left the .308 Winchester 26 inch test barrel at about 2560 fps. Two chronographs were used; one 15 feet in front of the muzzle and another 15 feet in front of the 1000 yard target. Average velocity difference down range between these bullets was 50 to 60 fps. The Sierras went through the 1/4" thick foil-covered foam boards at 998 yards the fastest.

I hunted with 7mmRM 180 gr VLD hunting in 2010 and shot 3 deer.
I had problems.
I went back to Nosler Balistic tips in 2011.

I have only a few personal anecdotes, but for me those anecdotes are out voting all the good internet press for VLD hunting bullets.

I shoot for the lungs.

Bart B.
April 25, 2012, 08:18 AM
Addicted2Shooting asks:. . . .does anyone else ever get the gut instinct that tells you to compensate this or that at the last second? I found myself dialing in, but then holding off target when the wind would change ever so slightly.That's been the norm since telescopic sights were first used in competition a century ago. It's been easier the last 50 years or so as optics are much better and resolve detail more clearly. When shooting matches at long range (and even smallbore ones at 50 or 100 yards) and the scope's focused half to two-thirds the distance down range, the mirage (heat waves) can be seen wrinkling across the field of view. As they pick up or slow down in speed, one can easily hold off to one side and shoot there. It's easier and more accurate than going out of position to adjust the windage knob then go back in position to shoot.

katgirl
September 20, 2012, 07:43 PM
I would love to have a range nearby which goes to at least 2000 and preferably 2500yds! Great photos and lucky you!

50 shooter
September 21, 2012, 09:23 PM
Seeing that you live in L.A., you're only a couple hours away from where I go shooting. If you want to know they area PM me and I'll let you know, I'm gonna go out for a day next month. Not sure how many others are going but its always fun.