PDA

View Full Version : howcome I never hear anything about .45 GAP?


Erikbal
March 15, 2012, 03:44 PM
I see and read tons of posts on here, but since I joined in Jan I haven't seen ONE post or ever a mention about the .45 GAP. Is it simply not a popular cartridge or not as desirable? What are the main differences between the GAP and ACP? My friend has a .45 GAP, I've never seen it up close or even shot it though. I think it's a Beretta but I could be wrong. Thanks for the help guys!

Double Naught Spy
March 15, 2012, 03:46 PM
Did you do a search for 45 GAP?

jmr40
March 15, 2012, 03:58 PM
The GAP is a shortened 45 ACP designed to fit in smaller guns. It comes very close to standard 45 ACP power levels because it comes loaded to P+ levels. When 45 ACP is loaded to P+ levels it is quite a bit more powerful.

Most, includng myself, don't see the point and are not interested. It has never had a big following and has probably peaked in popularity. Not completely dead, but slowly wilting away.

3kgt2nv
March 15, 2012, 04:08 PM
it was an attempt to increase capacity for a 45 and reduce the size of the firearm. the solution that has been more readily accepted in the gun world is the 40s&w round that fills the same gap between the 9mm and the 45acp

Incognito
March 15, 2012, 04:10 PM
I would have to agree with jmr40. The .45 GAP was developed in order to fit a .45 diameter bullet into a 9MM/.40S&W Glock frame for people who didn't have gorilla hands. Then the Glock 21SF came out followed by the Gen4 .45 ACP Glocks which are essentially the same size as the 21SF, so realistically there's no need for the .45 GAP anymore.

Just recently I traded a G37 (purchased before the G21SF came out) for a Gen4 G21. It uses a bigger/better bullet and carries more of them, among other things.

jimbob86
March 15, 2012, 04:10 PM
It comes very close to standard 45 ACP power levels because it comes loaded to P+ levels.


If someone wants to launch 180-ish grain bullets at .45GAP speeds, the .40 S&W will do that, at similar pressures, with higher capacity, and at lower cost..... .45 ACP+p will outdo .45GAP with no real advantage for the latter ......

No, it's not exactly dead...... just in a flat spin, and losing altitude fast. ..... if you shoot it, hoard brass for it.

Erikbal
March 15, 2012, 04:18 PM
Sorry no I didn't search, I'm using my phone and for some reason the search function doesn't always work right for me. Thanks for the responses so far guys.

G19OD
March 15, 2012, 07:39 PM
Eric, the .45 GAP is generally hated by non-users. Posting anything positive about it will lead to general derision by the non users. However, 5 state police agencies have adopted it (perhaps at a cost to the various states that could not be refused), but the officers using it seem to prefer it over other calibers. See this link: http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1397816
The naysayers will mention that the GAP is an answer to a question that was never asked, etc, etc. However, if you have smaller hands or might appreciate the softer perceived recoil offered by the GAP, then try it for yourself and make your own decision.

Ducking and running........:p

Officer's Match
March 15, 2012, 07:49 PM
If someone wants to launch 180-ish grain bullets at .45GAP speeds, the .40 S&W will do that, at similar pressures, with higher capacity, and at lower cost..... .45 ACP+p will outdo .45GAP with no real advantage for the latter ......



Hah hah, that's a good one. Oh wait, you were serious? Umm, OK...

Not even remotely accurate. The GAP runs at hot 45acp pressure, almost half of what the snappy and inaccurate 40SW runs at.

I used to be the King of the GAP-bashers. One range session with a Glock 38 profoundly changed that. It is the best Glock you can buy. Hell, I think it's the best overall handgun you can buy. I'm not kidding.

insaneranger
March 15, 2012, 07:53 PM
45 GAP is a good performing ammo in a smaller package, but at twice the price. I think that's why it didn't catch on.

Creek Henry
March 15, 2012, 08:31 PM
Didn't a few Glocks in 45gap blow up? That might have hurt its rep some.

Walt Sherrill
March 15, 2012, 08:52 PM
I don't handload, so I buy from folks like Georgia-Arms. Their .45 GAP is about the same price as .45 ACP -- which has caused me to rethink .45 GAP.

(I like the smaller platform -- as the Glock 38 is physically similar to the Glock 19, which is a great size. The larger Glock 45 just doesn't feel right in my hand, but the 38 does.)

Slamfire
March 15, 2012, 08:56 PM
I don't remember the issue, but an article in American Handgunner showed that 45GAP was very popular among State Police Departments.

These guys shoot factory ammunition so reloading is not an issue.

I suspect the 45GAP is a good blend of power, compactness, and recoil.

It is my recollection the 40 S&W was the most common cop round.

SIGSHR
March 15, 2012, 09:08 PM
The 45 GAP seems to be another proprietary cartrudge that never caught on.

Tom Servo
March 15, 2012, 09:22 PM
There are a couple of problems with the .45 GAP.

The first is the initial promise that was made to prospective LEO agencies: that the new guns would fit in the same holsters as the .40/9mm models. Not having to switch out duty gear saves a lot of money, and the prospect seemed appealing. However, the gun needed some revisions between conception and execution, and a wider slide was one of them. That advantage was lost.

The second is the fact that almost nobody outside of Glock manufactures a pistol for the loading. Springfield briefly made the XD pistols for it, but those have been discontinued.

True or not, the perception is that the round isn't taking off, and that leads to a vicious circle that keeps it from really taking off.

ScottRiqui
March 15, 2012, 09:33 PM
The second is the fact that almost nobody outside of Glock manufactures a pistol for the loading. Springfield briefly made the XD pistols for it, but those have been discontinued.

Same with the Springfield EMP, although it never even made it to the production stage chambered in .45 GAP.

TheGoldenState
March 15, 2012, 09:41 PM
Not even remotely accurate. The GAP runs at hot 45acp pressure, almost half of what the snappy and inaccurate 40SW runs at.


:rolleyes:


I used to be the King of the GAP-bashers. One range session with a Glock 38 profoundly changed that. It is the best Glock you can buy. Hell, I think it's the best overall handgun you can buy. I'm not kidding.


So you were talking without knowing? Do you make a habit out of that (ie: have you actually shot a .40sw)?

Snappy, i'd argue, inaccurate I laugh at.



True or not, the perception is that the round isn't taking off, and that leads to a vicious circle that keeps it from really taking off.


Is that like eating because you're depressed, and depressed because you're heavy? :D:D

jimbob86
March 15, 2012, 10:41 PM
.45 G.A.P. pressure is SAAMI-established at a maximum of 23,000 psi, but was tested up to 35,000 psi. Actual pres*sure of the released round runs between 19,900 and 20,500 psi to be "on the safe side."


I stand corrected ..... .40 S&W runs to 33K ...... .45 GAP is equal to .45 ACP+p pressure wise.....

but.....

The .45 GAP has the same pressure issue (although to a lesser extent) that the .40 S&W does, particularly with 230 gr bullets:

Even in the same firearm, with the same components, cartridges with low powder capacity and high operating pressures, such as the .40 S&W, have been shown to have a significant increase in pressure with very minor differences in bullet seating depth. One example in .40 S&W demonstrated a 20% pressure increase with a 0.05 inch (1.2 mm) change in seating depth.*

TANSTAAFL, especially in physics.

The question is:

Is .45 ACP performance, at the cost of .45ACP+p pressures, with some of the same case capacity/pressure issue of the .40 S&W (compounded by the unsupported chamber of the Glock handgun .... true, pretty much a non-issue for folks who don't reload, but I do......) worth .140" OAL? Capacity (dictated by cartridge diameter) will be the same, in similar pistol designs .... The Market, the Ultimate Arbiter, says no.....

..... you pick your choice, pay your money and take your chances ..... Me, I'd buy a .45 GAP EMP before I bought one in .40 S&W, but such a thing is not made.... and by the looks of things, I'd have to hoard brass if I did.....


*Can you say, "Bullet setback?" .... I knew you could!....

ms6852
March 16, 2012, 01:42 AM
I thought 45 gap was a marketing tool for clothing.

Yankee Doodle
March 16, 2012, 06:39 AM
Issued caliber of the NYSP. Most of the Troopers I have spoken to are quite happy with it. However, most of this group were happier with the 9mm they used to have. Less recoil. faster follow up shots, cheaper ammo it they want to practice on their own dime.
I, for one, would prefer either the .45ACP, or .357 SIG. Of course, if you have read my past posts, I don't think much of any Glock products. Wouldn't own another Glock pistol, however, the .45 GAP is still a wonderful solution to a non-existant problem.
You pays your money, and makes your choice.

dalegribble
March 16, 2012, 06:48 AM
the 45 gap was a solution for a problem that didn't exist.

Walt Sherrill
March 16, 2012, 07:14 AM
the 45 gap was a solution for a problem that didn't exist.

The problem did exist: larger rounds limiting capacity in most handguns. Most of the guns with more than an 8-round capacity are pretty big -- both in terms of the weapon that must fit in a holster and in the size of the grip. I find the full-size Glocks in .45 awkward, to say the least.

The Glock 38 (and similar guns) allows more rounds in a smaller frame. In many police departments, people with smaller hands -- which includes some of the female LEOs -- the 38 is a better solution.

There was a problem -- but objective observers could argue that the solution offered wasn't the only solution, or perhaps the best. That said, I happen to like the 38 and guns of that smaller size, and shooting it seems more manageable for me than other similar capacity .45s. (I haven't tried some of the newer .45s like the S&W M&P, and wonder how they compare.)

Spats McGee
March 16, 2012, 08:16 AM
For a while, I wanted a Glock, and I looked at the .45 GAP. Ammo and brass availability were an issue for me. Honestly, I don't think I've ever seen .45 GAP at any of my LGSs, or at a gun show. .45 ACP, on the other hand, could be purchased by the truckload, finances permitting. Also, at some point, I'd like to start reloading practice rounds, and there's a whole lotta .45 brass out there.

I don't hate the .45 GAP. Never fired a single round of it. I don't need to, though. I think that there are plenty of less expensive, more plentiful cartridges that will meet my needs.

Silent Bob
March 16, 2012, 08:21 AM
Local shops here don't even stock 45 GAP anymore.

zombieslayer
March 16, 2012, 09:18 AM
You probably dont hear as much about it because its not an extremely popular round, imo.

hoytinak
March 16, 2012, 09:22 AM
Ya know, I've never actually seen a .45GAP in a local shop. I've got small hands and would like to try a Glock 38 but wouldn't be able to get ammo for it around here.

BlueTrain
March 16, 2012, 09:33 AM
I had the impression that everyone bought their ammo on-line anyway.

Officer's Match
March 16, 2012, 10:28 AM
TheGoldenState:So you were talking without knowing? Do you make a habit out of that (ie: have you actually shot a .40sw)?

Snappy, i'd argue, inaccurate I laugh at.



Precisely my point about virtually everybody that is posting about the GAP.

Of course I have experience with the 40SW, a heckuva lot actually. I ccw'd a G23 when I had my first range experience with a G38. It is remarkable the difference between the two side by side. Frankly that is the basis of my accuracy assertion.

TheGoldenState, I know you don't know me, but I've been shooting handguns a lot for several decades. I'm not particularly recoil averse, my 10mm Delta Elite is one of my favorites. But there's no denying the difference in "shootability" between the Glock 23 and the Glock 38. Try it yourself, you might understand my viewpoint.

Officer's Match
March 16, 2012, 10:32 AM
Didn't a few Glocks in 45gap blow up? That might have hurt its rep some.

You are likely thinking of Glock 21 45acp issues. Actually GAP's are the only Glocks that I can't recall experiencing any issues. Could be the name/ego thing, but they have been pretty much good-to-go from day one, unlike some other models/generations.

edgreywolf
March 16, 2012, 11:01 AM
Dont be like most of the Gap bashers (ie. most 45acp fans), Dont knock it if you havent tried it....

take a 9mm glock, widen the slide slightly and you have a 45gap gun size, literally...

all 45acps have larger handles even the Short frame model (except the bastard g36 :) ... that is its own creature, handle feels bony to me )

I live in Wa State and I have no problem finding ammo for the gap locally, may not have the variety of the other calibers, and because it is not as popular here the price is a little higher

ammo is easy to find if you know where to look online.... just got 500 rounds to my door, 100 rounds of that was jhp, for $209.00 (georgia arms)

it has complete barrel case support

shoots much nicer than the .40 cal, more like a strong 9mm (ie. my g39 subcompact feels better than my g23 compact) and it even feels like less recoil than the 45acp (dont know why... handle size?)

All of the LEO departments that have gone to the gap have had increased shooting scores across the board, obviously better pistol control...

for reloaders the gap uses small pistol primers, same bullets and powder as acp, but different cases... it is NOT a shortened acp case.... cases are easy to find online and relatively cheap

ballistics are slightly higher with the gap for 180 and 200 grain ammo because of the higher pressure, but slightly lower than acp for 230 grain

for those that want 45acp +p... do it right and get a full powered 10mm :)

I am 6'1" and I prefer the smaller gap handle, and my wife is 5'5.5" obviously she does too
for us the gap is better than the acp,

my daily carry is a g39 same size as the g26 with slightly thicker slide 6+1, and i can use a 10+1 g37 mag in it for a backup, yet very easy to conceal and I dont have to remove it when I drive (truck driver)

the 45gap and the 357 sig are excellent alternative calibers, maybe not as popular as 9, 40, 45acp, but well worth looking into....

several state leo depts have switched to both of those and they have both been very well received, and for good reasons....

and when the next run on ammo might happen around November, it might be the only ammo available in the stores :D (hopefully not)

Edward

SIDE NOTE:

HR822 national reciprocity bill passed the house
S2188 the senate version just got introduced.... contact your senators and let them know how important it is

Officer's Match
March 16, 2012, 11:17 AM
Very good post Edward. For the record, I'm also a 45acp fan.

I do find it humorous the detractors that literally have never shot a GAP, but because they've read about it, they are graciously dispensing their sage advice. In their defense, they literally don't know the best thing about the Glock GAP line, and that is how well they shoot. I too "feel" a difference in the firing impulse of a 45GAP vs a 45ACP. I find the difference very appealing - maybe just a tad quicker than the acp, but in a good way.

I initially had decided not to like it due mainly to the lower capacity vs the 40, but the difference in shooting is amazing. And for me, I want the pistol that I shoot the best, whether punching paper, or trying to stay alive.

RC20
March 16, 2012, 12:05 PM
The 45 gap is a gaston glock ego round.

Note that Glock no longer will put the correct caliber designations on guns ( 40 S&W on their barrels any more and they will not put 357 Sig on their barrels) like all other mfgs do. Its just .40 and 357. All ego and the glock PR machine at work.

S&W has the 40, Sig has the Sig 357, Gaston cranked up the PR system to stoke his ego. As so often happens in this day and age, the spin was to turn the ego desire into a feature. Falling flat on its face.

Any use is due to the bribes glock uses to convince people to buy the guns (read the book, its a full blown press to both create market share and stop any criticisms to the defects in the gun) . Special deals, discounts, under cost trade ins you name it. They failed with this one which tells you how lame it is.

You will note that If you want a soft shooting round in a decent size gun, 9mm equal all the calibers above it for effectiveness (real world street statistics bear this out).

Of all the calibers, 357 Sig in the 124 grain has some claim to improvement in barrier penetration over the others. Any better lethality has not been born out in the statistics. hard to tell if the data set of barrier related shoots could be finagled out of the data being so few in number that they don't stand on their own.

publius
March 16, 2012, 12:11 PM
Because it was a failure. An answer to a question that wasn't asked.

RC20
March 16, 2012, 01:51 PM
Yep, and then when people buy it they convince themselves its something special

When I updated my HD gun, I had a choice. I own 41 mag, 45 acp, 44 special and have owned 44 mag in the past.

Say what you want, modern 9mm HD/SD ammo has proven to be as lethal as any of the larger rounds. Bit bang does not intimidate me in the least (I used to shoot a 7mm Rem magnum without a modern recoil rescuing butt pad, now that’s a recoil!)

that said 9mm is as capable as larger rounds, you can carry more, it has less recoil, is less costly and I can practice . I went with that

If you really want an effective low impact round, its 9mm. If you like the larger stuff then that’s fine but its no more effective and we didn't or need another round that offered nothing more, let alone for the sake of ego.

Officer's Match
March 16, 2012, 02:23 PM
Gee, I guess I just don't know a thing. Thanks for straightening me out fella's, I really shouldn't be distracted my own actual testing and first hand perception.

Officer's Match
March 16, 2012, 02:24 PM
By the way RC20, how many rounds of GAP have you yourself fired, just for the record?

Webleymkv
March 16, 2012, 04:26 PM
The .45 GAP is something of a niche round that really only fills a hole in one manufacturer's line (Glock). The original premise of the cartridge was to make a .45 semi-automatic that would be able to better fit people with smaller hands. There are two basic ways that you can reduce the size of the grip on a semi-automatic handgun: reduce the width or reduce the length.

Most handgun manufacturers prefer to reduce the width of the grip by using single-column magazines and that is an approach that typically works well (1911's, for example, are often favored due to the slimness of their grip). For whatever reason, Glock seems to be somewhat adverse to the idea of a single-stack .45 (the only one they make is the G36 which is more oriented towards CC than OC or uniformed police). Instead, they chose to shorten the OAL of the cartridge so that it would fit into the same frame as their 9mm and .40 S&W guns which have shorter front-to-back lengths than their .45 ACP and 10mm handguns. While they were able to do this, the width of the cartridge dictates that the magazine capacity of a .45 GAP handgun is lower than that of a comparable 9mm or .40 S&W as well as Glock's double-column .45 ACP's such as the G21 and G30. In fact, the G36 with its single-stack magazine has the same capacity as the most comparable .45 GAP model: the G39.

At current, Glock is the only manufacturer I'm aware of producing new handguns in .45 GAP. Most other makers, when faced with demand for a smaller-gripped .45, simply chose to produce a single-column .45 ACP. Glock, however, refuses to make a single-column gun outside of the G36, so those with small hands wanting a .45 Glock bigger than a subcompact model have little choice other than .45 GAP.

Coyote_Buster700
March 16, 2012, 04:56 PM
Didn't a few Glocks in 45gap blow up? That might have hurt its rep some.

Haven't a few Glocks in any caliber blown up?

insomni
March 16, 2012, 10:28 PM
Would like to try .45GAP out of curiostiy mostly. But nobody around here stocks it. 10mm AUTO and 357SIG are easier to find (and at least in this town, that ain't sayin much)

As for the .40, I find it to be just as accurate as other service calibers. It is a bit sharp, but I can rip out a wicked 5shot rythm drill with it still.

edgreywolf
March 16, 2012, 10:52 PM
RC20

lets see do you see any other persons name here other than Gaston Glock???? and this is only a partial list?!?!?!

.17 Remington
.17 Remington Fireball
.204 Ruger
.218 Bee
.219 Zipper
.22 BR Remington
.22 Hornet
.22 PPC
.22 Spitfire
.22 WCF
.22-250 Remington
.220 Russian
.220 Swift
.221 Remington Fireball
.222 Remington
.222 Remington Magnum
.223 MINISAS
.223 Remington
.223 WSSM
.224 Weatherby Magnum
.225 Winchester
.240 Weatherby Magnum
.243 Winchester
.243 WSSM
.244 H&H Magnum
.244 Remington
.250-3000 Savage
.256 Winchester Magnum
.256 Newton
.25-06 Remington
.25 Gibbs
.25-20 Winchester
.25-35 Winchester
.25 Remington
.25 WSSM
.257 Roberts
.257 Weatherby Magnum
.260 Remington
.264 Winchester Magnum
.270 Weatherby Magnum
.270 Winchester
.270 Winchester Short Magnum
.270 Gibbs
.270 Sabi
.276 Enfield
.276 Pedersen
.280 British
.280 Remington
.280 Ross
.284 Winchester
.30 Carbine
.30 Newton
.30 RAR
.30 Remington
.30 Remington AR
.30 TC
.30-06 Springfield
.30-30 Winchester (.30 WCF)
.30-40 Krag (.30 Army)
.30-378 Weatherby Magnum
.300 H&H Magnum
300 AAC Blackout (7.62×35mm)
.300 Remington SA Ultra Mag
.300 Remington Ultra Magnum
.300 Ruger Compact Magnum
.300 Savage
.300 Weatherby Magnum
.300 Winchester Magnum
.300 Winchester Short Magnum
.303 British
.303 Savage
.307 Winchester
.308 super_x
.308 browning
.308 wind mag
.308 Frontier
.308 Marlin Express
.308 Norma Magnum
.308 Winchester
.32 acp
.32 Remington
.32 Winchester Self-Loading
.32 Winchester Special
.32-20 Winchester (.32 WCF, .32-20 Marlin, .32 Colt Lightning)
.32-40 Ballard
.32-40 Winchester
.325 WSM (Winchester Short Magnum)
.33 Winchester (.33 WCF)
.33-40 Pope
.333 Jeffery
.333 Jeffery Flanged
.338 Edge
.338 Federal
.338 Lapua Magnum
.338 Marlin express
.338 Remington Ultra Magnum
.338 Ruger Compact Magnum
.338 Sabi
.338 Winchester Magnum
.338-06 A-Square
.338-06 Ackley Improved
.338-378 Weatherby Magnum
.340 Weatherby Magnum
.348 Winchester
.35 Newton
.35 Remington
.35 Whelen
.35 Whelen Improved
.35 Winchester
.35 Winchester Self-Loading
.350 Remington Magnum
.351 Winchester Self-Loading
.356 Winchester
.357 SIG SAUER
.358 Norma Magnum
.358 Winchester
.375 H&H Magnum
.375 Remington Ultra Magnum
.375 Ruger
.375 Weatherby Magnum
.375 Whelen (.375-06)
.375 Winchester
.376 Steyr
.378 Weatherby Magnum
.38 Smith&Wesson
.38-40 Winchester
.38-55 Winchester
.38-56 Winchester-Marlin
.40 Smith and Wesson
.40-60 Remington
.40-65 Peters
.400 H&H Magnum
.400 Jeffery Nitro Express
.400 Tembo
.401 Winchester Self-Loading
.404 Jeffery (10.75 x 73)
.405 Winchester
.408 CheyTac
.416 Barrett
.416 Remington Magnum
.416 Rigby
.416 Ruger
.416 Weatherby Magnum
.43 Mauser
.44-40 Winchester
.444 Marlin
.45 acp (auto COLT pistol)
.45-70 Government
.45-75 Winchester
.45-90 Sharps
.45-100 ballard
.450/400 Nitro Express
.450 Alaskan
.450 Bushmaster
.450 Marlin
.450 Nitro Express
.450 Rigby
.458x2 American
.458 Express
.458 Lott
.458 Sabi
.458 SOCOM
.458 Winchester Magnum
.460 Weatherby Magnum
.460 Steyr
.465 H&H Magnum
.470 Nitro Express
.476 Nitro Express
.50 Alaskan
.50 Beowulf
.50 BMG
.50 Peacekeeper
.50-70 Government
.50-90 Sharps
.50-110 Winchester
.50-140 Sharps
.500 Black Powder Express
.500 Jeffery
.500 Nitro Express 3"
.500 Nitro Express for black powder 3"
.500 No. 2 Express
.500/450 Nitro Express
.500/465 Nitro Express
.505 Gibbs
.505 Jeffery
.510 DTC Europ
.510 Fat Mac
.510 Whisper
.550 Magnum
.550 Nitro Express
.577 Nitro Express
.577 Snider
.577 Tyrannosaur (.577 T-Rex)
.577/450 Martini-Henry
.577/.500 Magnum Nitro Express
.585 Nyati
.600 Nitro Express
.600 Overkill
.600/577 REWA
.700 AHR
.700 Nitro Express
.950 JDJ

but yes you are right about the 9mm it will suffice and quite well....
i also shoot a 7mm Rem mag tikka t3 lite.... less than 6.5 lbs.... so yes i know kick.... but i choose not to kick me, rather kick those on the other end... ie. deer, elk or 2 leg animals

publius
the question was (duh) how do you get a 45 round in a smaller package, is that so hard to understand? sorry, i may be wrong, but you sound like a gap basher without a clue or a round shot down range with a gap

Webleymkv
the gap shrinks the handle 3 ways... width (added: sorry i was wrong about width gap 1.18 vs g36 1.13), length and height
the g39 is .5 inches shorter than the g36 on handle length for the same amount of rounds with less recoil

insomni
accuracy is not an issue with most any pistol.... they are more accurate than either you or i would ever be :D, it is just it seems easier with a round that doesnt move off target as much

where are you located? if in my neck of the woods you are more than welcome to try mine (and mommas g38 which is g19 sized)
that goes for anyone else in the area that would like to try my g39.... tomorrow i am going to Kent, wa for IDPA, (first time as a onlooker :) )

Edward

Cliph
March 16, 2012, 11:13 PM
I love it. I have the knock down power of a 200 gr, 45 caliber bullet in a Glock 19 sized pistol. The recoil is similar to my S&W M&P 45. JHP and ball ammo is available at LGS here. I pay 37 cents/round for ball. If you've ever reloaded a 45 ACP, you'll notice that about half the case is empty. Remove the empty space, shorten the case and you have a 45 GAP.

"Ask the man who owns one."

Officer's Match
March 17, 2012, 10:29 AM
"Ask the man who owns one."

You mean as opposed to demeaning the one who does?

dlb0412
March 17, 2012, 10:33 AM
Alot of people talk crap about calibers and brands they dont own. They want to beleive whatever they have is better than everybody elses. I wonder how many people have even shot the gun or caliber they bash? I also wonder how many people have seen a glock blow up with factory ammo? Not with reloads or a obstruction in the barrel and seen it with there own eyes. I bet not many if any at all on this forum. Some people hate what they are jealous of.

Aguila Blanca
March 17, 2012, 01:37 PM
However, 5 state police agencies have adopted it (perhaps at a cost to the various states that could not be refused), but the officers using it seem to prefer it over other calibers.
This is a VERY misleading statement, since the "caliber" of both the .45 GAP and the .45 ACP is .45 caliber. In addition, they both use the same projectiles, since the .45 GAP was designed intentionally to replicate the ballistics of the .45 ACP. Many agencies adopt Glocks because Glock essentially makes them an offer they can't refuse, but what is the basis for your statement that "the officers using it seem to prefer it over other calibers"?

The naysayers will mention that the GAP is an answer to a question that was never asked, etc, etc. However, if you have smaller hands or might appreciate the softer perceived recoil offered by the GAP, then try it for yourself and make your own decision.
Softer than what? Since the round by design replicates the .45 ACP, it can't shoot any softer than .45 ACP. As for smaller hands, that applies only to shooting Glocks with .45 ACP. People with smaller hands have no issues shooting 1911s, not even double stack 1911s from Para-Ordnance.

Aguila Blanca
March 17, 2012, 01:42 PM
The problem did exist: larger rounds limiting capacity in most handguns. Most of the guns with more than an 8-round capacity are pretty big -- both in terms of the weapon that must fit in a holster and in the size of the grip. I find the full-size Glocks in .45 awkward, to say the least.
But the .45 GAP is still a .45 caliber round, the exact same diameter as the .45 ACP. Making the cartridge shorter allowed Glock to make the grip frame enough smaller that people with normal size hands could hold the pistol, but it had zero effect on round capacity. That's a function of cartridge diameter, which didn't change.

Walt Sherrill
March 17, 2012, 05:18 PM
But the .45 GAP is still a .45 caliber round, the exact same diameter as the .45 ACP. Making the cartridge shorter allowed Glock to make the grip frame enough smaller that people with normal size hands could hold the pistol, but it had zero effect on round capacity. That's a function of cartridge diameter, which didn't change.

You're right: the rounds are the same diameter.

But, for some reason, many (if not most) .45 handguns are single stack 8 rounders. That causes me to think that, in practical terms, more than cartridge diameter is limiting .45 mag capacity -- that cartridge length must be a limiting factor, too. As you say, a .45 can be made double-stack and have more capacity, but darned few gun makers are doing it.

The only .45 double stack I'm comfortable shooting is the Witness large frame. But it's not a gun I'd consider using for concealed carry.

The similar, but slightly larger CZ-97B doesn't work for me, nor does the full-size Glock.

The Glock 36 (.45 acp) would be fine, but I want more than 6 rounds. I don't think they make a larger magazine for that gun.

The Glock 38 -- I bought one today -- seems to be a good compromise between capacity (8) and physical size (almost identical with the Glock 19), without giving up too much capacity. And, the 37 mag (which is a 10-rounder) can be used as a backup mag for the 38.

Some claim the .45 GAP is a solution in search of a problem -- perhaps -- but I'm happy with the solution.

Webleymkv
March 17, 2012, 05:30 PM
Webleymkv
the gap shrinks the handle 3 ways... width (added: sorry i was wrong about width gap 1.18 vs g36 1.13), length and height
the g39 is .5 inches shorter than the g36 on handle length for the same amount of rounds with less recoil

The reduction in height is not due to the shorter cartridge, but rather the decision to use a double-column magazine for .45 GAP handguns. The diameter of the cartridges are identical, so if both were used in single-column magazines of equal capacity, the length of the grip would be the same. By staggering the cartridges slightly into two columns, Glock was able to fit the same number of cartridges into the shorter gripframe shared by the G26 and G27 while still maintaining the same capacity as the single-column G36 but at the expense of added grip width as compared to the G36.

Also, I've not personally fired a handgun in .45 GAP, but I find the claim of less recoil to be a bit difficult to swallow as the numbers simply don't add up.

You see, in nearly all loadings from the same manufacturer, .45 ACP and .45 GAP velocities are nearly identical when the same bullet weights are compared. The only real exception to this seems to be 185gr loadings from Federal which actually advertise higher velocities with .45 GAP than .45 ACP.

Now, for a given loading and type of gun, the lighter the gun is the more recoil it will have. Both the G36 and G39 have the same bore axis (32mm according to Glock's website) and most loadings for .45 ACP and .45 GAP deliver nearly identical ballistics, but the G39 is actually 0.78oz lighter than the G36. Also, the slightly longer grip of the G36 should give people with slightly larger hands a better grip than the shorter one of the G39 and a better grip should, if anything, reduce perceived recoil. All this put together means that, on paper at least, the G36 should have roughly equal if not slightly less recoil than the G39 does so long as similar loadings are compared.

Walt Sherrill
March 17, 2012, 07:08 PM
I think the claim that recoil is reduced with the .45 GAP may be due to do the fact that the Glock 37/38/39 guns use a polymer-frame. It may be the "flex" inherent to polymer-framed guns makes the recoil SEEM a bit less obvious -- like the experience of using a heavier recoil spring in a steel-framed gun -- and more apparent than real. This sensation of less recoil may be true with other polymer-framed guns, as well. That said, if it is an illusion, it can be quite convincing.

Webleymkv
March 17, 2012, 07:35 PM
I think the claim that recoil is reduced with the .45 GAP may be due to do the fact that the Glock 37/38/39 guns use a polymer-frame. It may be the "flex" inherent to polymer-framed guns makes the recoil SEEM a bit less obvious -- like the experience of using a heavier recoil spring in a steel-framed gun -- and more apparent than real. This sensation of less recoil may be true with other polymer-framed guns, as well. That said, if it is an illusion, it can be quite convincing.

If we were comparing the G37/38/39 to a different type of handgun with a steel frame, I could see the polymer vs. steel thing possibly coming into play (though the flex of polymer is often offset by the extra weight of steel). However, my comparison was specifically between the G38 and G36 both of which have polymer frames.

Walt Sherrill
March 17, 2012, 07:55 PM
However, my comparison was specifically between the G38 and G36 both of which have polymer frames.

The 38 is 20% heavier and a bit larger than the 36, with a slightly more hand-filling grip -- and that may account for the felt difference.

But I WAS thinking steel when I responded.

gyvel
March 17, 2012, 08:02 PM
Basically because it was a flash in the pan. It had its 15 minutes of fame.

Officer's Match
March 17, 2012, 09:44 PM
I can tell you first hand that the G38 GAP most definitely has less felt recoil than the narrower G36. I have compared them side by side with the same weight loadings, and the 36 is pretty snappy as 45's go, whereas the G38 is a sweetheart to shoot.

Webleymkv
March 18, 2012, 10:57 AM
The 38 is 20% heavier and a bit larger than the 36, with a slightly more hand-filling grip -- and that may account for the felt difference.

Sorry, I had a typo in my last post (all Glock's model numbers start to run together after a while). My comparison was specifically between the G39 and the G36 since they are the most comparable models. I have no doubt that the G38 has less recoil as it is substantially larger than the models I'm comparing. Unfortunately, we don't really have anything to compare the G38, or the G37 for that matter, to as Glock doesn't make any single-stack .45 ACP handguns besides the G36.

overkill0084
March 18, 2012, 11:37 AM
Some LE agencies like it.

Among people who pay for their own ammo, it's simply too much $$ & hassle for little to no significant gain.

Beyond enabling someone to cram a .45 caliber cartridge into a frame used for 9 mm, what else does it do? It brings nothing new to the table ballistically, unless you count higher chamber pressures. It's a one trick pony, who's trick isn't that appealing to enough people.

Officer's Match
March 18, 2012, 12:53 PM
Sorry, I had a typo in my last post (all Glock's model numbers start to run together after a while). My comparison was specifically between the G39 and the G36 since they are the most comparable models. I have no doubt that the G38 has less recoil as it is substantially larger than the models I'm comparing. Unfortunately, we don't really have anything to compare the G38, or the G37 for that matter, to as Glock doesn't make any single-stack .45 ACP handguns besides the G36.

I don't see much difference between my G38's and my G39. Much less felt recoil in the (smaller) G39 vs G36.

Webleymkv
March 18, 2012, 02:16 PM
I don't see much difference between my G38's and my G39. Much less felt recoil in the (smaller) G39 vs G36.

This is what doesn't make sense. The G39 is slightly lighter than the G36 and has less grip length, yet you say it has substantially less felt recoil when both cartridges deliver nearly identical ballistics. The only reason I could think of to explain this is that the wider grip of the G39 spreads the recoil out over a larger area, but the even wider grip and extra weight of the G21 or G30 should have the same effect.

cohoskip
March 18, 2012, 02:27 PM
I have an XD .45 GAP Tactical 5" bbl. It fits my hand like a glove and shoots better than any of my other pistols...

Officer's Match
March 18, 2012, 07:05 PM
This is what doesn't make sense.

You know, now that you mention it, it doesn't. But I can tell you that side by side I much prefer shooting the G39. In fact, I actually found my G23 to be more comfortable to shoot than the G36, and I generally prefer the 45acp to the 40sw. G36's are my least favorite Glock to shoot.

Walt Sherrill
March 28, 2012, 05:08 PM
I had been thinking about getting a Glock in .45 GAP for some time, and finally did so, a week or two ago. Didn't have ammo, so had to order some -- which I got from Georgia Arms. (They sell it for about the same price as .45 ACP, by the way.) I only bought 5 boxes, I'll get 10, next time.

I tried the gun for the first time, today. I was very surprised with how easy the Glock 38 shoots. It didn't feel all that different than shooting a Glock 19. Very mild-shooting gun.

I picked up this UNFIRED, NIB Glock 38 from a local guy. $375 in a private transfer. Great deal. Great gun.

Officer's Match
March 28, 2012, 09:03 PM
Hard not to like isn't it Walt? I find that the "pleasantness" of shooting a G38 very often translates into shooting it quite well too. I am at my most Glock-accurate with one of my G38's in my hands. Mine all really like 200gr Gold Dots, a great round IMHO. I'm thinking about having one milled for an RMR.

kcub
March 29, 2012, 05:08 AM
I'm surprised no one has mentioned Kahr.
If they had made the PM45 in GAP instead of ACP history might have changed.

The PM45 is too big for pocket carry unlike the smallest Kahr 9's and .40's.
The .45 GAP would have worked in this role.