PDA

View Full Version : Skipped chamber, Ruger vs. Smith


HighValleyRanch
December 2, 2011, 09:44 PM
Wow, I learned something today!

Found an article by Grant Cunningham, revolver expert and fan of Rugers.
He explained the difference between short stoking a Ruger and a Smith.
Let me preface by saying that this applies to double action trigger work only, not missed cocking for single action.

The phenomenon of double action short stroking can occur in very fast competition shooting, or as with my LEO brother in an actual shootout. He was shooting a Smith .357 and skipped a round, possibly because of short stoking. The live round was found later in the investigations. He didn't know that he had, because in the heat of combat, you really don't count rounds. he said.

Short stroking is when the shooter in a hurry to reset, does not allow the trigger to go completely forward.

Big difference in the way the Smith and Wesson revolvers handle this than the Rugers. The S&W's will advance the rotation of the cylinder, but not reset the hammer, resulting in the loaded chamber being missed. This might be critical, because you will have to cycle the gun all the way around to get to that loaded round. Say you take two shots, short stroke, and so the third round is lost. You have finish shooting the next two or three (depending on whether you have a five or six or even eight round smith) and cycle through those first two before getting to that lost round.

Try it out on your Smith.
MAKE SURE IT IS EMPTY FIRST!:eek:
Dry fire once, then only let it out to reset and pull the trigger again; you will see the cylinder spin one chamber without the hammer action. This is a short stroke! You might have to try it a number of times, but you will find that point that the cylinder does advance, but no hammer action.

The Rugers handle the short stroke differently. The trigger gets locked temporarily. If you keep pressing the trigger, it stays locked until you let it out. But the big difference is that the cylinder does NOT turn! Let the trigger out and the round is ready to fire again. But the Ruger is slightly more prone to short stroking and you have to really let the trigger all the way out. On the trigger reset, you will feel three definite clicks on the way out.

I haven't seen this discussed too much, so if you are shooting both smiths and rugers, it might come in handy some day, and it might make some difference in the way you practice drills for this "malfunction".

Don't say it can't happen to you. It does and might. It is not going to show up for most people shooting slow at the range.

He also states that shooters that versed in the semi auto practice of only letting the trigger out to reset for faster followup shots are very prone to this in revolvers, where you have to let the trigger fully out.

Here is the full article:
"The Case of Locked up Rugers towards the bottom of the blogs. Great informative article that I was happy to run across today and wanted to share this with others who have never heard of it.

bossman
December 2, 2011, 10:53 PM
What ever my Smiths shoot just fine.

drail
December 2, 2011, 11:06 PM
When I worked in a gunshop and range we saw lots of folks who would shortstroke the DA trigger pull on their newly purchased Ruger revolvers. (starting with my wife of all people) Then they would bring the gun into the shop and insist that it was defective. Rugers won't tolerate short stroking in DA even a little bit. Once I had gently instructed them to let trigger fully forward (at first telling them to run their trigger finger forward into the trigger guard) they finally figured out what was happening. It's pretty common for new shooters with their first Ruger. S&W revolvers are much more tolerant of it but you still can't get to sloppy with them. The two use a totally different trigger linkage and geometry. Jerry Miculek has been overheard (by me) to tell people that you have to learn to pull the trigger fully back and fully forward at the same speed (and I agree with him on this) to obtain a fast smooth DA trigger cycle. This is one of the reasons he doesn't recommend lightening the return spring because if you have to wait for it to reset the trigger then that's going to be your absolute speed limit in DA. You want that trigger to snap back forward as fast as you can get it.:D

P-990
December 2, 2011, 11:20 PM
I've wondered a few times if the reported trigger "issues" with the Ruger LCRs were just due to people being accustomed to shooting semi-auto triggers. But I do remember trying an LCR once and thinking the return spring didn't feel very strong.

(FWIW I have S&W DA wheelguns and Glocks. I suffered "trigger freeze" once with the timer running with a 1911 because I was expecting a more positive return pressure.)

Ashlander
December 3, 2011, 12:01 AM
When I teach new shooters how to shoot revolvers -- the problem of the missed chamber comes up mostly when shooters start pulling the trigger and then let off before the bang (just being too tentative or shy about pulling that trigger). The cylinder advances to the next chamber and they end up skipping that one shot. The problem with short reset is mostly that the new shooters think their gun is "locking up."

jhco50
December 3, 2011, 02:09 AM
I open carry an Armscorp M206. It is a loose copy of the Colt Detective. I emptied it and tried short stroking it and what I got was nothing. Unless I let the trigger all the way out to reset I just felt the spring tension on the trigger. the hammer never moved and the cylinder stayed dormant. Of course this is a different system than even the Colt I believe.

HighValleyRanch
December 3, 2011, 02:28 AM
Of course this is a different system than even the Colt I believe.
Yeah, the article didn't cover other revolver systems.
No idea what the CA, taurus, DW would do.

I did, however pull my Colt OP out of the safe to test it, and if you don't let out to the second click on the trigger going forward, the trigger will feel locked.

Short stroking is different that letting down the trigger before the bang and having the cylinder rotate. All of them will miss the chamber.
It is a phenomenon happening AFTER the shot.

Slopemeno
December 3, 2011, 02:52 AM
Actually, you can "skip" (cylinder moves, hammer doesn't) with a Ruger Security Six as well, without the lock-up. You just have to hit the trigger return stroke just right.

HighValleyRanch
December 3, 2011, 10:44 AM
Actually, you can "skip" (cylinder moves, hammer doesn't) with a Ruger Security Six as well, without the lock-up. You just have to hit the trigger return stroke just right.

Haven't been able to do that with mine, at all, even by hand.
The cylinder will not advance until the trigger goes ALL THE WAY OUT.

ON THE LETOUT STROKE:
No movement to the first click, lockup on the second, and cylinder rotation AFTER the final third click.

briandg
December 3, 2011, 11:44 AM
I think that anyone who has done this was in extreme stress or maybe even panic, and wasn't even remotely in control of his handgun or firing. If this happened more than once under any circumstances, in my opinion, that person needs to simply retire the revolver and go glock, or some similar device that doesn't reset until the return is complete.

Shadi Khalil
December 3, 2011, 03:19 PM
I've never short stroked any of my Smith's but they also have a very positive return. However, I can see how it might be a problem for me with an LCR. As some one else mentioned, the return on the LCR does not have that nice, positive slap and really turned me off of them. I can see why people really like the LCR triggers, especially who don't like J-frame triggers. The LCR has a trigger like I've never felt on a revolver but I just don't like it.

James K
December 3, 2011, 04:36 PM
I can "short stroke" an S&W every time and have often done it as a demonstration (gun unloaded of course). It is harder with a Ruger.

And so what? The whole thing sounds to me like someone with way too much time on his hands figuring out some new way to complain about one brand or another and then writing a silly article about his silliness. Anyone except a doofus will practice full trigger release rather than worrying about all the things that can result from short stroking. (BTW - That term means something entirely different in auto-loading or automatic weapons.)

Jim

MrBorland
December 3, 2011, 04:45 PM
I'm well-familiar with short-stroking. :rolleyes:

Smiths can lock up, too. Slowly let the trigger return from it's fully back position, and listen for 3 "clicks". The first click is the hand sliding to the next position on the ejector. The 2nd click is the hammer re-engaging the cylinder stop. Pull the trigger between the 1st & 2nd clicks, and you'll note it's locked. The hand is pushing the cylinder, but it can't advance because the stop can't be released by the trigger.

The 3rd click, nearly at the end of the release, is the hammer/sear re-engagement. Pulling before the 3rd click will result in a short-stroke, as the cylinder turns, but the hammer doesn't rise.

Short-stroking becomes more common on revolvers with lightened actions. A common bad habit many people unknowingly have is to let the trigger push their finger fully forward, and lightening the action helps reveal the bad habit.

Dragline45
December 3, 2011, 05:47 PM
Short-stroking becomes more common on revolvers with lightened actions. A common bad habit many people unknowingly have is to let the trigger push their finger fully forward, and lightening the action helps reveal the bad habit.

+1, I put in a 14lb rebound spring in my J frame and at first when in extreme rapid fire I would short stroke every once in a while. I quickly found out I was relying on the trigger to assist my finger forward and with a little practice it is no longer a problem. But seeing as I cannot shoot a J frame accurately when firing as fast as humanly possible I practice at a more reasonable rate of fire allowing for accurate follow up shots. J frames need practice, thats why I always say if you can shoot a J frame or any snub revovler well you can pick up almost any handgun and be proficient with it.

HighValleyRanch
December 3, 2011, 07:13 PM
I think that anyone who has done this was in extreme stress or maybe even panic, and wasn't even remotely in control of his handgun or firing.
Anyone except a doofus will practice full trigger release rather than worrying about all the things that can result from short stroking.

Geez, guys, lighten up!:eek:
So my brother doesn't know how to control his handgun (even though he taught a major police department), or he is a doofus, because in a high stress face to face ten yard shootout he forgot to fully release his trigger.
IT CAN HAPPEN!
If either of you have been in a face to face shootout then you can comment of how stupid this topic is, because the thread is meant to inform others who are not aware of the lockup or chamber skip.

Geez, armchair quarterbacks!

Whirlwind06
December 4, 2011, 08:12 AM
I haved short stroked my k frames a number of times during dry fire practice and speed loading. It is one of those things I want to workout and correct during practice not during a match or in SD shooting.