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View Full Version : Why no DA/SA pocket 9mm's?


Skans
September 19, 2011, 09:56 AM
I would really like to have a double-action / single action pocket 9mm or .40 S&W. Everything currently made is DAO. Why no DA/SA micro/pocket 9mm's or whatever they are called?

Whirlwind06
September 19, 2011, 10:44 AM
How many new full sized DA/SA pistols are being made?
Not copies or existing products rehashed with new bells and whistles, but actual new pistol just released.
Last ones I can think of are the Beretta storm and Ruger P345.

I don't think there are many in the past 3-4 years.
Seems most are some kind of safe action or SA.

carguychris
September 19, 2011, 10:53 AM
My theories:

Striker-fired / DAO pistols have grown in popularity while the DA/SA market is relatively stagnant. The gunmakers are trying to follow the buyer's preferences.
The market for striker / DAO pocket 9mm's seems to be growing. It's less risky to go after an existing market than to try creating a new one.
DA/SA trigger mechanisms are complex, expensive to manufacture, and difficult to make smaller. Think about it this way: since it takes X amount of force to ignite the primer regardless of the size of the gun, generating that force with smaller levers requires increase the load, which does not bode well for reliability and cost savings.

carguychris
September 19, 2011, 11:02 AM
How many new full sized DA/SA pistols are being made?... Last ones I can think of are the Beretta storm and Ruger P345.
Don't forget the FNP/FNX.

That said, the buying public's response to these guns seems lukewarm at best; see point #1 in my previous post.

lcpiper
September 19, 2011, 11:42 AM
I am not sure if this plays into it but I have real problems with the whole concept. The idea of a pocket gun is right out the window for me unless I am just going to the mailbox.

The best I can tell, all those baby 9mm like the LC9 and the Rohrbagh are more gimmick then gun. If you are going to go pocket sized I think you are much better off with a .380 or .32 cal. It's because at this size, these calibers allow for accuracy at a good rate of fire.

Take the SIG P238 for instance. Given reasonable practice and carried in a decent IWB holster, you could go from battery one to seven in the x ring in very little time and at greater distances then the ity-bitty 9s.

I know someone here will claim that they can outshoot a P238 with their LCP and perhaps there is someone who can. But give both guns to 100 people and check the results. Now go from .380 LCP to 9mm LC9 and see what you get.

Too many people are fooled by the numbers these days. Stats, feet per second, energy, etc. And too many are bound by the idea that the numbers can't be wrong, X gun must be the best, and therefore its the only gun to buy.

All the proof you need is right here in these forums.

jimbob86
September 19, 2011, 12:02 PM
lcpiper, the numbers that matter are preceded by the $ symbol: while I agree that the SIG238 is a better gun than the lc9 or the lcp, it costs twice as much, and most people won't shoot it any better anyway. Hell, most people won't even carry them all the time .......

And any .380 is going to cost 20% more for for practice ammo, so your 9mm shooter are going to practice more...... and that is a good thing...... +1 for the 9's.

For the person that strives for perfection, the DA/SA was never an answer anyway, and the various mass produced polymer pistols are cheaper to make and serve the market for folks that just want a gun, any gun. The first rule of a gun fight IS to have a gun ...... and in 95% of DGU's, it would not even have to be loaded (conversely, that means if you pull an unloaded gun, 1 time in 20, you're gonna get killed)...... so 99.95% of the time, any gun that goes bang when the trigger is pulled and puts bullets in a torso sized target at anything less than 21 feet is sufficient........ just my $.02 ......

gyvel
September 19, 2011, 12:10 PM
If Kahr ever engineered a DA/SA version of their original 9mm, I don't think they could make them fast enough.

dalegribble
September 19, 2011, 12:16 PM
i have a taurus 709 slim in sa/da. it is i belive considered a pocket pistol. it is one of the smallest 9mm pistols available and a good reliable handgun.

Nakanokalronin
September 19, 2011, 12:52 PM
I am not sure if this plays into it but I have real problems with the whole concept. The idea of a pocket gun is right out the window for me unless I am just going to the mailbox.

The best I can tell, all those baby 9mm like the LC9 and the Rohrbagh are more gimmick then gun. If you are going to go pocket sized I think you are much better off with a .380 or .32 cal. It's because at this size, these calibers allow for accuracy at a good rate of fire.

Take the SIG P238 for instance. Given reasonable practice and carried in a decent IWB holster, you could go from battery one to seven in the x ring in very little time and at greater distances then the ity-bitty 9s.

I know someone here will claim that they can outshoot a P238 with their LCP and perhaps there is someone who can. But give both guns to 100 people and check the results. Now go from .380 LCP to 9mm LC9 and see what you get.

Too many people are fooled by the numbers these days. Stats, feet per second, energy, etc. And too many are bound by the idea that the numbers can't be wrong, X gun must be the best, and therefore its the only gun to buy.

All the proof you need is right here in these forums.

I defiantly agree and will say that the pocket nines take more practice to be accurate with and quick follow-up shots. IMO they're like the modern day lightweight snub nose which is easy to carry, yet not so easy to shoot well. There are a few exceptions that are better than the rest but it all comes down to the ergonomics of the pistol itself.

I have a P238 and I believe its the best pocket .380 out there. Every feature, recoil, follow up shots, accuracy and trigger are far above any other pocket .380 I've owned or shot. There was a test with the P238 and Hornady Critical Defense ammo that went through 4 layers of denim, 16 inches of ballistic gel and fully expanded. After seeing that its all I carry in my P238 which I feel the need to mention that its been 100% reliable from day one.

I also own a Kimber Solo which serves as my summer IWB summer carry piece. Its a nicely made semi-auto but the lack of factory checkering on the front and back strap is a big problem for such a small grip. I have front and rear grip tape plus slightly thicker wood grips and the Solo still wants to slip in my hand by round 5 or 6. Only other gun I ever had to readjust my grip while firing was a PF-9 which I no longer own. Kimber currently has some extended mags for the Solo which provides a tad more grip that is on their website yet not available for purchase. I don't readjust my grip with any pistol so if the extended mags don't provide a fix, I'll more than likely have to sell it.

My winter carry is a Kimber UCII in 45acp. I have no problems holding on to it with full power 230gr. ammo. Currently all of my carry guns are in a 1911 type of configuration. This would make it difficult to find a replacement for the Solo since its the only small nine with similar controls. There's the EMP but its basically as big as the Ultra Carry.

I like hammer guns but I understand that sometimes the striker is necessary for room like the Solo. Beretta has the PX4sc which is a DA/SA subcompact which I also own. Its a great gun and I really thought the NANO was going to be a smaller pocket sized version. They went with a striker and although I was highly disappointed, it might of been the only way they could accomplish it. I thought that Beretta out of anyone else would of made a pocket DA/SA 9mm since their 92/96s and PX4s are all in that configuration and almost define what a Beretta handgun is.

Since I like 1911s or guns that closely mimic the controls and feel, I'd rather see more small SAO guns in the mix. Problem is many are scared to carry a cocked and locked SAO handgun even though most don't realize that there are quite a few striker fired guns that are in this condition without manual safeties....its just they can't see the cocked back hammer/striker. The result of this is manufactures making DAO pistols. I can't count how many people have made posts on multiple forums about how they would never carry a P238 C'd & L'd in their pocket but have no problem with a P3AT,LCP or revolver.

18DAI
September 19, 2011, 01:24 PM
Striker fired plastic makes lots and lots of money for manufacturers.

Evidently, many will buy that stuff and pay alot for it.

Personally I'd buy a S&W CS9 and call it good. Better pistol than the new products being offered, IMO of course. Regards 18DAI

C0untZer0
September 19, 2011, 01:37 PM
My theory:

Because the DA/SA is an inferior design that is unpopular?

gyvel
September 19, 2011, 02:49 PM
My theory:

Because the DA/SA is an inferior design that is unpopular?

And more than likely, so is your theory...:rolleyes:

Skans
September 19, 2011, 03:49 PM
I'm a big fan of da/sa guns. I like the double action on the first shot - I just feel more comfortable carrying that way. But, I don't see why follow up shots should all be double action. It shouldn't take that many more parts to make a DAO double action/single action.

checkmyswag
September 19, 2011, 04:06 PM
Think it may be that the small pocket pistols are for carry and for carry many people prefer DAO/striker fired.

Skadoosh
September 19, 2011, 04:15 PM
Count me as a DA/SA pistol aficionado....

Glockfan36
September 19, 2011, 04:20 PM
It's the same as carrying a DAO revolver in the pocket: nothing to snag on! The more I think about it, carrying a DAO auto sounds better all the time.
That's all because it creates fewer potential problems in a confrontation.
Not to mention having a gun with a cocked hammer negates the the whole self-defense idea, particularly to cops, attorneys, etc.!

Shadi Khalil
September 19, 2011, 04:45 PM
Not to mention having a gun with a cocked hammer negates the the whole self-defense idea, particularly to cops, attorneys, etc.!

But aren't alot of DAO guns already,"cocked" as well? And what about the safety on a single action?

Skans
September 19, 2011, 04:56 PM
The whole point of having a Double Action is so that you can carry with one in the chamber and NOT have it cocked. There would be nothing more to snag than with DAO guns. DA/SA guns don't have to have a hammer spur. The only difference is that the hammer stays cocked after the 1st shot. That's all!

Walt Sherrill
September 19, 2011, 05:11 PM
Why no more new DA/SA pocket guns?

I suspect it has to do with the extra parts, internally, in a DA/SA gun. You've got to squeeze more in, add complexity and cost and, arguably SPACE to make it work. (If only because the DA trigger generally requires a larger arc.)

That extra stuff or functional necessities keep such a gun from easily being a "pocket" gun.

The PM9 seems to do what MOST DA/SA guns will do, and I'd rather shoot the PM9 than most of the .380s cited -- and I suspect (I haven't tried it) I could be just as accurate ( or more accurate) with the PM9.

My P9, now sold, was almost a pocket gun, and it was a good shooting gun. Why did I sell it? Somebody just made me an offer i couldn't refuse.

dogtown tom
September 19, 2011, 05:56 PM
lcpiper: ...Take the SIG P238 for instance. Given reasonable practice and carried in a decent IWB holster, you could go from battery one to seven in the x ring in very little time and at greater distances then the ity-bitty 9s.
IMHO the 238 is just too big and heavy for a .380.......it's closer in size 7 weight to the PM9/LC9 with NONE ofn their advantages.
My PM9 is every bit as accurate as any 238 I've shot and chambered in a cartridge that cheaper and considerably more powerful.

Nakanokalronin ....I have a P238 and I believe its the best pocket .380 out there.
I strongly disagree. An exposed hammer, single action semi auto the size of the 238 makes for a less than ideal "pocket pistol".
John Browning knew what he was doing over a hundred years ago.....his pocket pistols were hammerless.
There's good reasons for that.

SPUSCG
September 19, 2011, 06:10 PM
I love da/sa guns, i hate dao guns. A da/sa pocket 9 something along the llines of a ppk would be awesome.

carguychris
September 19, 2011, 06:40 PM
Not to mention having a gun with a cocked hammer negates the the whole self-defense idea, particularly to cops, attorneys, etc.!
Not necessarily; the idea that single-action triggers attract prosecutors like magnets is a widely-held misconception and a gross oversimplification of the real issue.

Most of the issues with SA triggers originate from the same source as the gun-counter brouhaha about overpenetration and "overpowered" Magnum or 10mm Auto ammo: it comes from shoots that were legally questionable and/or involved blatant disregard of Jeff Cooper's Rule #3. Recently discussed here:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=462464
But aren't alot of DAO guns already,"cocked" as well? And what about the safety on a single action?
^What he said. :)
It shouldn't take that many more parts to make a DAO double action/single action.
Not if the pistol is striker-fired! The advantage of the striker mechanism is that most of the parts work in a straight line rather than pivoting, so it's easier to pack it all inside the slide of a very small gun. John Browning figured this out over a century ago with the design of the FN Browning Model 1910 (kudos to Dogtown). Compare a cutaway of this pistol to a cutaway of a concealed-hammer compact automatic (e.g. Remington 51) or a hybrid design (Savage 1907) and you should immediately see the logic behind using a striker in a pocket pistol.

excelerater
September 19, 2011, 07:33 PM
DA/SA cost more and to some are more complicated
but if I had my choice id always lean towards DA/SA

Fargazer
September 20, 2011, 12:25 AM
If I had my wish, I'd see something about the same size as the Beretta Nano using the Walther P99 AS trigger system. Striker fired, but gives the rough effect of DA/SA.

lcpiper
September 20, 2011, 01:06 AM
Downtown, you just made my point for me. You think the P238 is too large for a .380 but that is only because you believe these small 9s are worth a damn in a situation. You need close to 20 ounces of gun for a .380 to be a stable shooter. You need more then that for a 9mm. This is just something you can't get very far from although there are some variables that can shift the scale some, just not a lot.

In the simplest of terms, if you are going to bet your life on a gun you should make sure it's a gun you can "qualify" with. There are different sorts of qualification standards, but they almost always come down to a given set of conditions, a measure of accuracy and a time limit.

Set your target at 7 or maybe 12 yards. Load up a couple of mags, and under time see how long it takes for you to accurately empty those mags. If it takes more then say 30 seconds or if you can't put 70% of your rounds on target, then you can't qualify with it.

Now I am gust swagging the numbers here, but I am trying to get a point across. Let's exagerate some. If S&W came out with a .44mag pocket gun that weighed 14 ounces empty and was say, 5+1 just for giggles, and was DA/SA, why not. If they could build it, would you want it ?

Could you shoot it to save your life ?

AZAK
September 20, 2011, 02:17 AM
Set your target at 7 or maybe 12 yards. Load up a couple of mags, and under time see how long it takes for you to accurately empty those mags. If it takes more then say 30 seconds or if you can't put 70% of your rounds on target, then you can't qualify with it.

Well, then a .22 pistol would be even better.

I think that we tend to forget the role of a pocket pistol. If any of us knew with absolutely certainty that we would need/as in no choice/pre-determined to make use of a weapon in a defensive role on a given day at a given time and a given place... we probably would choose to carry something "that time" other than a "pocket pistol" regardless of chambering.

Pocket pistols are indeed a "compromise"; in many ways. However, I think that a lot of people who would otherwise choose not to carry (at all or at certain times) a more "appropriate weapon" are far more likely to carry a 10-20 ounce package on a regular basis. (Remember rule number one...)

If they could build it, would you want it ?

Could you shoot it to save your life ?
And this is a question with merit. And each of us needs to personally decide exactly where and how much we are willing to compromise.

dogtown tom
September 20, 2011, 09:15 AM
lcpiper Downtown, you just made my point for me. You think the P238 is too large for a .380 but that is only because you believe these small 9s are worth a damn in a situation. You need close to 20 ounces of gun for a .380 to be a stable shooter.
I don't. You need to shoot better, lighter .380's than a 238......like the P380.

You need more then that for a 9mm.
Again, I don't.....I am far from an expert shot but have no trouble with controlling my PM9 or with accuracy at 7yds.

In the simplest of terms, if you are going to bet your life on a gun you should make sure it's a gun you can "qualify" with. There are different sorts of qualification standards, but they almost always come down to a given set of conditions, a measure of accuracy and a time limit.

Set your target at 7 or maybe 12 yards. Load up a couple of mags, and under time see how long it takes for you to accurately empty those mags. If it takes more then say 30 seconds or if you can't put 70% of your rounds on target, then you can't qualify with it.
I have no problem putting THREE mags through my PM9 into an 6" circle at 7yds in thirty seconds. Frankly, it isn't that difficult.


Now I am gust swagging the numbers here, but I am trying to get a point across. Let's exagerate some. If S&W came out with a .44mag pocket gun that weighed 14 ounces empty and was say, 5+1 just for giggles, and was DA/SA, why not. If they could build it, would you want it ?

Could you shoot it to save your life ?
You are right...it's an exaggeration... and has no meaning in this arguement. You are under the belief that the recoil of a 9mm in a Kahr PM9 or Ruger LC9 is so horrendous that shooting one fast and accurately is impossible......it clearly is not (even for me).

(*_*)
December 17, 2011, 11:25 PM
Dragging this thread back from the dead to ask why no one mentions the Beretta Bobcat. .32acp which in some loads has almost .380 power, and its DA/SA