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iron horse
September 19, 2011, 07:29 AM
Hello Everyone,

Which 2 semiautos in production or discontinued meet the following criteria:

1. SA and DA
2. .40s&w or .357sig or .45acp caliber
3. Medium and compact versions
4. Metal slide and metal frame
5. NO slide mounted safety
6. Medium version mags work in compact version
7. Straight backstrap (i.e. Colt Officers, S&W 59, or Beretta Vertec type grips).
8. Known reliable ammo feeding and case ejections

So far, it appears my only choices are the CZ 40B and 2075Rami versions in .40 cal., or the Colt Double Eagle Mk II in Commander and Officers versions in .40 or .45 cal. or the Sig P220 Carry and Compact versions in .45 cal. (except Sigs have curved backstraps). Any other options? Thanks.

Skans
September 19, 2011, 07:40 AM
EAA Stock and Stock II.

ChrisJ715
September 19, 2011, 08:01 AM
Just my 2 cents worth of opinion, but I'd go with the Sigs.

shabodah
September 19, 2011, 08:57 AM
I like a lot of the same things in a handgun and have been wondering what else that meets those criteria is out there myself (except the backstrap thing or DA).

It seems like there are quite a few full-sized guns out there that fit, but very few compacts, and the compacts that meet the criteria, don't all have full-sized versions.

I think the Sigs are interesting options, and have look extensively at the Witness. I think a single stack compact witness would be a cool option for carry if it was offered.

But mostly... Why can't EAA/Tanfoglio offer actual stainless guns?

iron horse
September 19, 2011, 04:33 PM
Thanks for the comments. I am searching for a semiauto combo so that my wife can shoot either if I leave either at home and that the only additional mags accessible will fit in either gun. She has tried all my revolvers and semiauto handguns (have or had over the years) including Colt, Beretta, Browning, Glock, Ruger, S&W and Sig Sauer.

For home defense, her choice is our Ruger SP101 5 shot revolver. She says she feels confident with it and likes the grip, solid weighted feel, size and stainless appearance (we also keep a Ruger GP100 readily accessible at home). She likes the fact that she only has to grip it, point it and pull the trigger. I wanted her to pick the Colt 1991A1 or the Sig or the Glock.

In semiautos, she liked somewhat my all steel 1991A1 Officers model. She likes the grip size/shape and the solid weighted feel. However, in a home defense situation, she did not like the ideal of having to rack the slide, flip a safety off or cocking the hammer before the first shot. Therefore, I want semiauto combo that I like and that can have a round chambered, hammer down, with safety off and only pull the trigger to fire it, just like a revolver. But, I want the option of a single action first shot, therefore the need for a SA/DA set up.

We know of a lady in our area that lived through a forced entry from an unknown scumbag. When she noticed him staring at her from her kitchen window, she ran as fast as she could to get her 5 shot S&W revolver from the bedroom. She said that by the time she grabbed the gun from the nightstand and turned around to close/lock the bedroom door, the scumbag had already broken the patio door and was running down the hallway to her bedroom. She pointed and began to pull the trigger until he grabbed at his leg and turned around and ran off. She had fired all 5 shots. He was never caught.

She said that she wished she had a heavier gun with more rounds. But, she also said she was thankful that she did not have to rack a slide or flip a safety or cock the hammer before firing the first shot (she also said she should have had an alarm system or a dog for even a few seconds warning). She still keeps the S&W 5 shot ready, but her primary home defense weapon is now a 6 shot Ruger GP 100 (and she has a dog in the yard).

I thought about just getting my wife one or two, of the eight shot S&W revolvers from their Performance center, until I read that for some, the cylinders were locking up.

Securing any gun with children in the home is another critical issue (as we know 2 families over the years, that have had in home accidental shooting deaths of children by children) but I will save that issue for another thread.

gyvel
September 19, 2011, 04:42 PM
I'd say a Smith & Wesson 4006, but the one I had couldn't hit a barn from the inside.

iron horse
September 20, 2011, 04:47 AM
No experience with EAA. But for me, the only polymer framed guns that look good (and has a hammer) are the EAA Witness Elite and Compact models (nothing against my bland Glock 23). If the all metal versions of the Elite and Compact looked like those and had a history of reliability, I know I would at least have to try them (I like black matte finished guns too).

As to the Sigs, it looks like the P220 Compact has a longer slide than my Sig P229, therefore it does not seem that compact? I like Sigs but do not like the exposed mainspring and curved backstrap (I plan to have the Elite II straight backstrap kit installed...just wish the kit had straight metal grip panels to provide more protection for the mainspring).

The S&W 4006 is a good looking gun. But, I do not like slide mounted safeties/decockers. I own/owned/used S&W 59s, 469, 645, and 915s. Infact, my favorite shaped handguns are the 59s, then the 1991A1. However, only the 645 was reliable enough for home defense (it was 100% reliable even with semi wad cutters). Even after several trips to S&W gunsmiths, some of the models continued to stovepipe.

Thanks for the comments.

Jeff OTMG
September 20, 2011, 08:48 PM
I haven't tried it but does a SIG P226 mag work in a P229?

Just remembered a Seecamp 1911 (govt or commander) DA conversion and a Seecamp Officers DA conversion.

Sevens
September 20, 2011, 10:50 PM
EAA Stock and Stock II.
Love 'em, but they don't do DA, which was bullet point #1 in the list.

Jamas
September 20, 2011, 11:05 PM
Beretta makes a compact 92/96 but they have the slide mounted safety they may make one that's decocker only but I'm not sure. I know that make it in full size... I think Taurus made one that fits except the grip specs.

iron horse
September 21, 2011, 02:24 AM
Sig P266 mag in Sig P229? Great question. Would consider that combo if so. But, in Sigs, I only have the Sig P229. In Sigs, would prefer to have P229 and P239 combo, but mags are not compatible.

Yeah, strongly considered SeeCamp conversion or getting the Viking production guns with the conversion (I love the little Seecamp guns, they give me a nice false sense of security:D ) But, I can not find the kits or anyone to install them. It also looks like the conversion involves some type of odd 2 trigger set up and the Viking supposely had reliabilty issues.

Yeah, it looks like some of the EAAs are SA only? For me, If I went SA only, I would stick with my 1991A1 Commander and Officers combo. However, racking slide or flipping safety or cocking hammer for first shot in a home defense situation is not an option for my wife. I think the EAA Witness Elite and Elite Compact are sa/da? If I went with a polymer combo, I would get those and if they made all metal versions, I would try them.

I like Berettas (have them in 9mm, 380, 32, and 25 cal.). But, if you try very hard, you can flip the safety on the fs when racking the slide (wish they made the 84 in 9mm or 40). I thought about the decocker version as it automatically goes back. But I would only get that combo if they came in a 96 (40 cal) versions with decocker only and in centurion and a compact size (like an 84), with a brigadier thick slide, and vertec grips. I don't think they have that combo yet.

The Taurus uses the original Beretta 92 design (as does the Beretta 84-great gun) which I think is a better design. They have the safety on the frame. Don't know if they have a small version. I can grip the standard 92fs grips well as my hands are medium (I can grip them all well except for Para Ord. double stack 45s) but I just prefer the look, feel and pointability of straight back grips and my wife can get a better grip with straight grips.

Why more gun manufactures do not develop systems of large, medium and compact guns with compatible magazines, like Glock, is beyond me. Thanks.

1SOW
September 21, 2011, 02:34 AM
CZS

re #8: CZs do have a short chamber so SOME factory hollowpoints, flat nose, conical nose cartridges may not chamber at that oal. They will feed most brand-name SD loads.


OOPS, you already included CZ

Sevens
September 21, 2011, 06:52 AM
I think the EAA Witness Elite and Elite Compact are sa/da?
The Elite Match is the lowest model of the single action only Tanfoglio built and EAA marked Witness pistols. The Stock, the Hunter, the Gold Match are the upper levels, all above and beyond the Elite Match.

All the other Witness models below the Elite Match are DA/SA.

iron horse
September 29, 2011, 02:12 PM
Thanks for CZ info. I may try one in the future. However, to meet my preferences and some of my criteria, I am now considering the Sig P220/Carry and the P245/Compact. I am searching for a combo like the Beretta Cougar and Mini Cougar (but without slide mounted safety). Wish they made a Sig Mini P229 (or Beretta 96 Vertecs without slide safeties in medium and mini sizes or Colt 1911 pattern commanders and officers model SA/DAs or reliable S&Ws with no slide safeties or all metal medium and small HKs or....:D).

tahunua001
September 29, 2011, 04:39 PM
Hello Everyone,

Which 2 semiautos in production or discontinued meet the following criteria:

1. SA and DA
FN Herstal FNP/X, CZ CZ75, Beretta PX4 and 92, 1911
2. .40s&w or .357sig or .45acp caliber
Beretta PX4 and 92(40 and 45), 1911(45)
3. Medium and compact versions
I dont know what you mean by medium but the PX4 comes in compact and service sizes. and you can get 1911s in pocket sizes
4. Metal slide and metal frame
drops your options down to 1911
5. NO slide mounted safety oops, well I'm out of ideas
6. Medium version mags work in compact version
7. Straight backstrap (i.e. Colt Officers, S&W 59, or Beretta Vertec type grips).
8. Known reliable ammo feeding and case ejections

zombieslayer
September 29, 2011, 10:46 PM
I saw mention of the 40B. Its a fantastic handgun but it is in no way a midsize. Its a full sized service pistol. Mine goes to the range with me quite a bit.

Misssissippi Dave
September 29, 2011, 11:03 PM
Sig P226 magazines do work in the P228/P229. They do stick out a bit.

michael t
September 30, 2011, 11:44 AM
Bersa has a 9mm and a 45 DA/SA and mets your needs They are relieable and trouble free /

iron horse
September 30, 2011, 04:19 PM
Thanks for taking the time to provide more comments. Based on wanting an all metal medium and smaller SA/DA (so it can be left at home with a round chambered and fired like a revolver) combo with no slide mounted safeties, that the medium versions mags will work in the smaller version and in .40, 357 or .45, very reliable and based on whats available, these are the combos I am going to choose from:

1. Sig P220/Carry and P245/Compact
2. Jericho 941 Compact and Sub Compact
3. Bersa Thunder HC and Thunder Ultra Compact

I know the Sigs are some of the most reliable pistols ever made and in single stack, should be even more reliable and I can get them in all steel. I have used these guns alot. However, I think 10 round mags is the most available for them and the Compact is not that compact? If backstrap is like my P229, I do not like the exposed mainspring.

To me, the Jericho "looks" like an incredible weapon. But, I have no personal experience with them, except a friend showed one to me and I liked it alot. I can get them in all steel and the subcompact is a nice size. However, I have "read" about mixed reliability reviews, issues with different importers and jamming due to the use of different colored mag followers and the fact that they are clones of CZs and the Israel Military went from Jerichos to Glocks. Are they as reliable as a Beretta, Sig or Glock?

I know nothing of the Bersas expect that years ago, they were not considered high quality pistols by many. However, these new models on their website "look" very high quality. Are they as reliable as a Beretta, Sig or Glock?

Thanks for any comments.

zombieslayer
September 30, 2011, 05:50 PM
My best friend has a Jericho. I love shooting it. Ive neber heard of any probkems with them.

RC20
September 30, 2011, 11:18 PM
I am pretty confused by all the criteria, but a Sig SP2022 might well meet part of the need, though the compact version is not to be had here.

Advantage is its a DA/SA, mid sized or compact (I all em mid size but its small enough to carry so.....)

It does have the simplicity of the DA/SA. Various grips (mind came with two and I went with the larger one, I think there is another one or two but hard to find information on.).

It does handle well, Sig has matched the P220 for feel in a smaller gun.

viper7342
October 1, 2011, 12:07 AM
+1 For the SP2022 mine has been ultra reliable and accurate. You might like one also, even though it doesn't have an external safety, it does have a decocker and a very smooth DA trigger pull. If it wasn't for the fact that you want SA/DA, I would also recommend the S&W M&P 40, mine has also been 100% Reliable and it also comes in a compact version that uses the same mags and you can get a 357 Sig barrel for it, it and the SP2022 are polymer framed however.

dreamweaver
October 1, 2011, 12:12 AM
i have the colt double eagle officers .45.
best of the bunch IMHO.
it might be for sale soon if clients don't pay their bills:(

tom

HBoswell
October 1, 2011, 12:12 AM
I would highly recommend that you check out the Bersa's. Three years ago I went looking for one and couldn't find them anywhere. Now they stock both the 9mm and 45acp at Cabela's in the UC (ultra compact) version. The HC or High Capacity version may be a bit harder to come by, though. Bersa's are still under priced for what you get IMHO and you get most all of your criteria met for around $900 for the pair. They do make a mid-sized and compact in both 9mm and 45acp and you can use the mid sized 17rd magazines in place of the 13rd in the 9mm compact version and I believe the same applies to the 45 but you would have to check on that. They are also left hand friendly right down to a reversible mag release. I was fortunate to find their Firestorm Mini 9 (same as the UC except a round trigger guard and finger groove grip) and it is by far my favorite 9mm of the four I own. The service on them is top rate from what I have read and replacement parts are also available. Lifetime warranty to original purchaser and I understand the only downside is the grease they come packed with due to shipping from S.A. You might check out this video of a 9mm HC stress test, 1400+ rounds rapid fire, pretty impressive

http://www.bersafirearmsusa.com/videos/test.html

iron horse
October 1, 2011, 02:02 AM
Thanks for comments. I appreciate others gun experience.

The Jericho Compact and subcompact are versions of the CZ40B and 2075 Rami?...but the Jerichos "look" far better to me and supposely Magnum Research is going to start distributing them again this year? I am researching their reliability further as this is obviously the most critical issue for me for a home defense and or carry/backup guns (and this combo will be both).

The Sig SP2022 is a good looking gun. But, as you said, it has a poly frame and no compact version. I already have a similar sized Sig P229. If Sig made a Mini P229 (could use same mags.) my search would be over (and I would only have to buy one extra gun instead of two).

I like having only a frame mounted decocker at most, but as you commented, the M&P 40 has a poly frame.

I like the double Eagle Commander and Officers combo the most. But, I have not found a gunsmith yet, that has modified the MkIIs exposed e clip mod that holds in critical parts (I want the e clip metal capped). Still searching for an expert on the Eagles.

These new Bersas look good (except for very curved backstrap). I am researching them further.

Thanks again.

iron horse
October 1, 2011, 07:11 AM
Went to Magnum Research website...what a letdown. The Jerichos are once again called "Baby Eagles" ...who does their marketing???? More importantly, all the "Babies" have slide mounted safeties only and there is not a subcompact and compact all steel .40 and only a subcompact .45. I guess if I want frame mounted safeties/decockers, all steel Jerichos in compact and subcompact in .40 or larger, I will would have to find other sources.

iron horse
October 3, 2011, 11:57 PM
Note: In the 2012 Guns and Ammo Buyers Guide, the B Eagle (Jericho) is shown with a frame mounted safety/decocker????

I want the guns for carry, backup and extra home defense guns that untrained spouse may have to use.

I have narrowed down my search to two (2) combos. Considering I want reliablity, use of same mags in both guns, DA/SA, frame mounted decocker or safety, and all metal, I will get one of the following combos:

Sig Sauer P220 Carry (8 round) and Compact (6 round) .45 (at least 10 round extended mags) or the

Jericho 941 Compact (12 round) and SubCompact (10 round) .40. (unknown extended mags)

Any comments? Thanks.