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View Full Version : Are Sigs prices a JOKE?


kst8fan
September 15, 2011, 04:15 PM
I recently started a thread on whether to purchase a Beretta 92fs or a CZ 75b.
But to be honest, I really wanted a sig 226. What changed my mind was obviously the price of the Sig. I just couldnt see paying close to $900 for a
9mm. A buddy of mine has a CZ 75b and a Sig 226. He told me that the CZ is just as reliable, accurate and handles as well as the Sig 226, and is about $300 cheaper. Don't get me wrong, if Sig is indeed top of the line I wouldn't hesitate spending that much for a 9mm. So tell me those of you that have the Sig 226, is it really head and shoulders above the rest, or are the folks in Exeter just proud of their products? I have also been considering the Beretta 92fs/92a1. More than likely will be getting the Beretta or CZ, but I was just curious why the Sig is so expensive.

aarondhgraham
September 15, 2011, 04:23 PM
But like you said,,,
Sig is very proud of their product.

I don't like the Sig because of the fat grip,,,
I simply can't get a good handle on it,,,
So I opted for the CZ-75B in 9mm.

That grip fits me very nicely,,,
So I call it a "better" gun for me than the Sig.

Mine has proven it reliability,,,
I had one FTE in the first magazine,,,
Since then (1,000 + rounds) it hasn't failed me once.

My advice is to get one in your hand and shoot it,,,
You're the only one who can really evaluate if it's suitable for you.

Put 100 rounds through your friends gun,,,
You just might like the Czech Ladies.

BTW,,, right now Buds has them (http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/82/products_id/13655) for $465.00

Aarond

sigcurious
September 15, 2011, 04:38 PM
I feel my 226 was worth every penny, and I was debating the CZ 75.

However my decision to purchase the Sig first(I still plan on getting a 75) was based more in other factors than price, which are subjective to me. I do honestly feel the CZ 75 is a much better value.

That being said, it should be noted if you are considering the purchase of a Sig any of the p22x series can be purchased in .22lr for much cheaper than their major caliber counterparts. Now here the rub, you can add whatever major caliber conversion to the .22 and you still pay roughly the same amount for .22 + major caliber as you would if you had just purchased the major caliber alone. So the cost of my sig set up(.22 226 +9mm conversion) and my future cz 75 set up(9mm + .22 conversion) will be roughly the same. ~$800-900

BigJimP
September 15, 2011, 04:40 PM
Yes, I think Sig is a fine gun ....and I have a pair of 226's - one in 9mm and one in .40S&W both all stainless models.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=69456&d=1303170642

Sig has priced their guns to meet what they consider their market...no, they're not nuts.....and I don't believe they are overcharging for their products either ...but whether they're worth it to you or not, you have to decide ...

Lots of shooters have 1911's in 9mm as well ...priced from $ 1,000 - $ 3,000 or more ..and just because they're a 9mm doesn't mean they're overpriced. I like a 1911 platform in 9mm ( guns like Wilson Combat's all stainless Protector model in 9mm sells for about $ 2,900 right now - and its a great gun in my opinion ).

aarondhgraham
September 15, 2011, 04:42 PM
Sig is the only gun I know of that you can convert UP to a centerfire,,,
And it definitely is cheaper to buy a "Classic 22" and then convert it to centerfire.

Go figure,,, :confused:

Aarond

abber
September 15, 2011, 04:55 PM
Most gun purchases are a long term investment. At least that is how I approach it. That said, I feel my $1100 P226EQ was worth every penny. It looks good, handles nice, and is very accurate. AND, if it means anything to you, it has a metal frame.

Mrgunsngear
September 15, 2011, 05:03 PM
I wouldn't pay for any of the Sigs besides the 1911s. I like the 226 and the 229 a lot but there's no way I'd pay for them. It just seems nuts to me when they're are so many great polymer guns out there.

That said, Sig has been around a long time and it seems their business model is working so someone is paying for the guns; more power to them.

jayhan
September 15, 2011, 05:11 PM
I have a springfield xd tactical and xdm 4.5 (4.5 inch barrel) paid 550 for the xd and 650 for the xdm. If i had bought a few sigs i definitely wouldn't be going to the range every other weekend

jayhan
September 15, 2011, 05:13 PM
about the only thing i would pay 1100 dollars for is a 1911

wbw
September 15, 2011, 05:40 PM
There is always pre-owned. I got my 229SCT that came with FO front sight, six mags and the original owner had NP3 applied to the slide and all six mags for $900. I thought that was a good deal and it is a pretty fine pistol, IMO.

IshootThings
September 15, 2011, 05:48 PM
I have a 229 in .40. It's the only pistol I own (so far) and I've put 500 or 600 rounds through it at least and have never had a problem with it and haven't even cleaned it yet. I've fired a few guns and the only one I like better was an H&K my brother and I rented at a local range. I'd recommend the Sig in a heart beat.

WVsig
September 15, 2011, 05:49 PM
If you pay full price than yes you are paying too much. There are thousands of used Sigs in the $500 to $600 range.

I prefer the W German guns anyway. Also look at the CPO program you can get great deals there.

If you want NIB look at Top Gun or Wild West Guns. They move a lot of Sigs and will treat you right.

Microgunner
September 15, 2011, 05:52 PM
No, I think they're pretty serious about them.

threegun
September 15, 2011, 06:05 PM
Very serious about them. Great guns but not for me and definitely pricey.

checkmyswag
September 15, 2011, 06:06 PM
There are some reasonably priced Sig models.

Also, there are some good used Sig's out there.

BeachHead
September 15, 2011, 06:21 PM
I love my P226. It's accurate, reliable, and just plain pretty.

But IMO, if I'm going to pay $950+ OTD, a polished feed ramp and re-crowned barrel should come as standard. Instead, Sig offers them as optional extras through their Custom Shop. A Melonite-type finish in place of their Nitron would be nice.

Does Sig make a good gun? Definitely. But I don't think I'll buy another unless I win the lotto or find one of their 1911s in the "pre-owned" section.

Micropterus
September 15, 2011, 06:23 PM
I have the Sig P226R and P229R, as well as the CZ75B and CZ75 Compact. I prefer the Sigs. I find them more comfortable, I like the decocker on the Sigs. Of course, CZ makes decocker versions of the 75, but they decock to half-cock, unlike the Sigs. The Sig is also more meticulously finished. If you left a Sig with the amount of machine marks in it that a CZ has, the Sig would cost quite a bit less.

I love my CZs, or I wouldn't own them. But I think the Sigs are more refined. And they shoot better for me.

proxpilot
September 15, 2011, 06:28 PM
I wouldnt trade my p226 for any other 9mm. it's the first gun i ever purchased and it will go to the grave with me.

seed
September 15, 2011, 06:37 PM
If you look, you can find older, better quality pre-Cohen era/pre-MIM circa 1990's Sigs for 5-600. It is one of the better kept secrets in the gun market at the present moment. I would rather have an older one than a new one anyway.

kst8fan
September 15, 2011, 06:51 PM
I should also mention that I want an all metal frame 9mm which is why Im considering these models. Not that polymer framed guns aren't great, steel is just what works for me. I feel that Im shooting a gun, not a toy.

Microgunner
September 15, 2011, 06:53 PM
steel is just what works for me

SIGs use aluminum frames for the most part. They made a couple steel framed pistols like the P220ST, but they are rare.

kst8fan
September 15, 2011, 07:02 PM
I forgot to mention aluminum and steel is what Im looking for. I like the fact that the Sig 226 comes with an accessory rail. Its definately a plus. Too bad I didn't have the extra $$$ right now, as the 226 would probly find its way to my safe!!:D

sigcurious
September 15, 2011, 07:08 PM
look at the CZ 75 Sp-01 if you want a rail, little more than the standard 75b though.

Slamfire
September 15, 2011, 07:09 PM
In my opinion SIGs are overpriced. If it were not for a sale, I would not have purchased this P220. It was $650 and I forget the tax. I don't know if it is good value for the money but it has the features I wanted.

It is a very good pistol but accessories are also overpriced.

SIG customer service are arrogant in my experience. My pistol did not shoot to point of aim, shot very low, SIG wanted a credit card number so they could charge me well over $100.00 if they decided the problem was me. They told me they were not a sighting in shop, I did not know how to shoot: the six O’C hold is incorrect, real shooters use center of mass, and their pistols are regulated to center of mass.

The gunstore I deal with could not make any head way with these guys or the district salesman. The words the shop used to describe factory customer service are unprintable. They took my pistol and it shot low for them, so they swapped me another.

When I had elevation issues with my Colt Combat Elite or my Kimber, both of those companies sent me taller rear sights, and they worked.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Pistols%20various/SigP220.jpg

sigcurious
September 15, 2011, 07:15 PM
Slamfire, Sigs are sighted in dot over target vs 6 o'clock, but that was a horrible way for CS to tell you that. But it sounds like it was shooting lower than that. which makes it worse that they assumed it was one thing when it may have been another.

BigJimP
September 15, 2011, 08:02 PM
A lot of the sigs are alloy frames ...but there are models of the 226, like mine, in the photo above - when they made all stainless versions. Those models were discontinued about 5 yrs ago ...

but there is also the Sig 226 X-Five series ...and there is an all stainless version there as well....

http://thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=38070&d=1226361269

http://thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=38071&d=1226361269

It just depends on what you want ...( the all stainless X-Five is unique gun / in that it has an adjustable trigger in it as well - you adjust from 2 to 4 lbs and then locktite it down )...its a nice gun / but more money as well.

The current model of 226 - Elite Stainless is about the same gun as I have in the attached photo - and it sells for around $ 1,200 or so ( I got a good deal, but about 5 yrs ago / I paid about $ 950 each for each of my all stainless versions when they were closing them out ).

http://www.sigsauer.com/CatalogProductDetails/p226-elite-stainless.aspx

The X-five version I have is now selling in the $ 2,500 price range ...but its a lot of gun for the money too...

just helping you see all the options out there ..not trying to tell you what to do / but all stainless sigs are not rare - if that's what you want.

gc70
September 15, 2011, 08:30 PM
Are Sigs worth their price? Yes, if Sigs happen to work particularly well for you, they are worth the price. If they only work as well for you as a variety of other guns, then they are overpriced. In fact, guns that are moderately priced in the market are overpriced if they don't work well for you.

jr24
September 15, 2011, 09:01 PM
I found my 2 Sigs were worth every penny, paid $680 for a trade in p220 and just under $300 for a p225 (the 220's little brother in 9mm). Love em both to death.

Mentioning it, if you don't mind single stack and you can find one, you can get good deals on those little P225/p6's trade-ins. Sweet, sweet little guns.

schmeky
September 15, 2011, 09:48 PM
I'm an inside-out guy. I look at the inside of a pistol first (if I have the opportunity), then decide if I want to consider the outside as well, i.e. looks, features, etc.

I have owned several Sigs and still have one (P-220 very early W. German). I see stamped sheet metal parts in a Sig, which is not necessarily a bad thing. I see aluminum, which is quick and easy to machine, not a bad thing either. Which begs me to wonder, why the crazy new Sig prices? But I really like forged steel, hardened parts, robust over-kill, AND a good price.

This is why I like a CZ. Forged, hardened internals, the frames are cast from a very high grade steel, they are heavy (steel framed guns), and built to last. No MIM, no sheet metal, no compromise.

Yes, they could be finished better, but everyone that complains about the "good ole" days", well, right now, CZ's are the good ole' days. CZ is hold-out in a world of compromise.

WVsig
September 15, 2011, 09:56 PM
This is why I like a CZ. Forged, hardened internals, the frames are cast from a very high grade steel, they are heavy (steel framed guns), and built to last. No MIM, no sheet metal, no compromise.

Sorry to break it to you but most of CZs new offerings are Alum/alloy or poly.

P07/P01/P08/Rami/Phantom etc......

SauerJackson
September 15, 2011, 10:26 PM
Over the years I've owned and carried a few different breeds of glocks, xd's, CZ's etc..... But even after selling it a few times because I swore I had found a new favorite, my .357 226 is the only one I still have after 8 or so years with. The CZ's are amazing guns. They are solid as a tank, extremely reliable, plenty accurate, and.......I just don't like them! I don't know what it is, but they just feel big and heavy and ugly to me. I don't mind the controls, but I don't lile them either. The Sig to me just feels far superior.....

chadio
September 16, 2011, 12:07 AM
Not if you are patient and find a good used one. I bought a W. German P226 9mm for $465. Why most people wouldn't want this gun:

1) it is a used handgun
2) has holster wear
3) no tac rail
4) it's 'only' a 9 and not a .40 or .45 or .357
5) it's not a Glock

However, I have no issue with any of those things, and I have truly enjoyed this pistol. Especially for the price.

Ridge_Runner_5
September 16, 2011, 12:19 AM
I really want to buy a 228, but I cannot justify dropping $850 on one plus $45-60 per mag... I'll have to stick with my $450 Glock 19 for now...

Did enjoy my old P6, though...

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b100/89Sunbird/Shooting/p6.jpg

spodwo
September 16, 2011, 05:32 AM
Price is relative...Sig offers so many variations and price points it's hard to run some general statement about price. Frankly - a $1000.00 pistol to some is 1/100th of their annual pay so it almost becomes a moot discussion point.

A company's pricing markets to it's demographic.

10mm4ever
September 16, 2011, 05:50 AM
SIG Exeter has gone insane with their pricing. Get a lnib w.german 226 for 500ish. You'll have better quality and pay FAR less. As good as the w.german SIGS are, the CZ and Beretta are every bit as good!

coop2564
September 16, 2011, 09:41 AM
You get what you pay for in the end! Cheaper often works for a while but at some point I usally come to conclusion I should of paid the extra.

abber
September 16, 2011, 10:01 AM
about the only thing i would pay 1100 dollars for is a 1911

I have 2 1911's, and both were around that price. The Sig works better.

graysmoke
September 16, 2011, 10:17 AM
I had a Sig P220 9mm w/2 magazines that was in like new condition. I was the original owner, paid $699 + tax, the gun was only 2 years old. And took me forever to sell it on gunbroker. - It finally sold at $355.00

So, do they hold the value?....In todays world - NO

But, I guess that applies to everything....Especially House Values.

overkill0084
September 16, 2011, 10:23 AM
Sorry to break it to you but most of CZs new offerings are Alum/alloy or poly.

P07/P01/P08/Rami/Phantom etc......

75B, 75BD, & 85s... Still steel.

Gun prices are what they are. Sigs are pricey. IMHO they are still a better deal than the H&K USPs. They want HOW much for a plastic framed gun?
It comes down to what your priorities are.
Are you brand sensitive?
Value oriented?
Impulsive?
Hey, it's your money, do what you want with it.
FWIW, I was pretty much sold on a 226 before I test drove a CZ. I ended up w/ the 75 BD. No regrets. That said, I may yet end up with a Sig 220 at some point.

RamItOne
September 16, 2011, 10:23 AM
Graysmoke
Why sell a gun? Did the Sig still perform as well as it did when you first got it?
If so then the price you paid is worth it. IMHO of course :)

C0untZer0
September 16, 2011, 10:32 AM
This topic has come up a couple of times - once in reference to H&K prices.

Has anyone looked at the prices of S&W E-Series?

I don't hear anyone carping about the prices of those handguns.

Eeeaaahhh! They're over one thousand dollars - I could buy ten Hi-Points for that amount of money !!!! :eek:

graysmoke
September 16, 2011, 10:35 AM
RamIt One....The Sig is an awesome handgun. But, I sold it due to needing the extra money at the time. Was in the process of moving and had too many firearms.

Today what I own I intend and hope on keeping for awhile.....Today, with the economy the way it is, whatever I purchase, I will consider re-sale value. Nothing is a lasting guarentee.

Hi-Priced Firearms are for the people that can afford them. And sad to say, that percentage is getting worst monthly.

Willie Lowman
September 16, 2011, 10:38 AM
As I said in the HK price thread, I am a handgun snob and I like my European pistols.

That said, I don't think the new Sigs are as well made as those before. Will I drop a grand on a new HK? Sure will. Will I drop a grand on a new Sig? I don't know.

RamItOne
September 16, 2011, 10:54 AM
I guess I've never considered selling a firearm so I've never looked at resale value. The pistol I've been eyeballing is the sig 226 x5 (too bad they dont offer in .357 sig), im sure i'd take a bath on resale tho...

I like the HK 45 Compact a lot, looks great, but is around 200-300 above my price point on that style of pistol.

WVsig
September 16, 2011, 11:27 AM
As I said in the HK price thread, I am a handgun snob and I like my European pistols.


99% of the new Sigs sold in the US have nothing to do with Europe. They are made here in the US and IMHO there is not anything European about them. LOL

So, do they hold the value?....In todays world - NO

I agree with this too. Sigs do not hold their value. A $800 NIB will only fetch $600 in the used market in LNIB condition. I had not takers on a Pristine P226 with a barsto match barrel at $650.

I love Sigs they are great guns but they do not hold their value like a Colt which has the best resale value of any pistol line. IMHO

WVsig
September 16, 2011, 11:33 AM
I really want to buy a 228, but I cannot justify dropping $850 on one plus $45-60 per mag... I'll have to stick with my $450 Glock 19 for now...

There was another batch of Munich/Swiss P228s which recently came in. I think Roberston's had them. IIRC they were goinfd for under $500. No one pays $45 for a Sig P228 mag when you can get a NIB Mecgar for $20. :eek:

Don Glock
September 16, 2011, 11:55 AM
Everyone thought they would be cheaper when they opened the NH location since they were no longer being imported. however, the only thing that decreased was quality control.

temmi
September 16, 2011, 12:56 PM
I have one and my Oldest son has 2.

worth every penny.


Snake

abber
September 16, 2011, 01:52 PM
I could have gotten a Glock for less money. I don't want a Glock.
I could have gotten an XD for less money. I don't want an XD.
I could have gotten an M&P for less money. I don't want an M&P.

Need I say more? You get the point. I will finish by saying one more simple truth - To each his own.

Yes Sigs are pricey, but if that is what you like, that is what you should have. Even if you have to save up for it. Life is short. Have at it.;)

BlackJackID
September 16, 2011, 02:50 PM
Sigs are worth the money for those willing to pay it. I, myself, was under that impression as well for a long time. Even though I loved Sigs, I didnt like them twice as much as XD's or M&Ps or the other "low dollar" pistols. Still Dont.

I think, like many do, If a SIG is what you want, then its worth it, but it doesnt make them any better than other good pistols out there. I have a Sig, and its currently my favorite pistol and my EDC. But...do I really think its BETTER than the XD or Glock or S&W, not really.....buts mine and I love it, and at the end of the day..Thats all that really matters

SHNOMIDO
September 16, 2011, 03:02 PM
I want a 226, but i cant afford it.

I also want a SCAR, but i cant afford it.

I also want a Lotus (car), but i cant afford it.

I also want a big steak for dinner, but i cant afford it.

guns are just like cars, or restaurants, or any other consumer product. theres super-low, low, mid, and high grade. Personally i consider Sig among the higher tiers of manufacturers, and i would expect their product to demand a higher price. will a CZ or a taurus or a SW or etc etc etc work just as well? Most likely.

But you can get to work in a Bronco or you can get to work in a Ferrari. They'll both work.

Te Anau
September 16, 2011, 03:11 PM
Didn't read most of the thread,but YES Sigs are OVERPRICED!!!
I chose to go with an improved Sig......otherwise known as a TZ-99....:p

RC20
September 16, 2011, 03:36 PM
Most Sigs are high priced.

There is that line between brand cachet, loosing it and staying in business. Sig is in the high end range and pretty much stays there.

On the other hand the Sig SP2022 is reasonably priced (and that's the only one that is).

I am neither for or against Sigs, ergo not a Sig fan, but the SP2022 suited what I wanted at a price I could afford.

I think you have to watch comparisons. A Bronco will not do 175 mph, a Ferrari will. If you need 175 mph, a Bronco will not do. On the other hand if all you do is drive your Ferrari to work, its a waste (unless you have the bucks and makes you happy, but functionally capability wise they are vaslty different.)

Guns tend to plateau out at a certain price level and you get no more velocity out of a Savage 30-06 than you do a Kimber 30-06. A lot nicer finish is what you get. I doubt any reliability difference. Accuracy wise close to the same (and hunting you would never know the difference)

I would not pay the price for the HK P30, though I think the grip is the best I have ever felt. I can live fine with the Sig grip, its good. The Sig is reliable and shoots well. Ergo no bonus to pay more than I did.

oneounceload
September 16, 2011, 03:58 PM
They, like ANYTHING else in this world, are not over priced if folks are buying them at their current pricing. Some folks may be "underfunded", others not so - doesn't matter if the guns are selling. Consumers ultimately set the retail price of everything in the world

Rogervzv
September 16, 2011, 04:22 PM
Well, by definition SIGs are not overpriced if the gun is worth the price to the buyer. :)

Every time I look at a SIG I decide that it is overpriced. For 9mm I would take a Beretta 92FS or M9A1 over a SIG and in fact I did. For .45 a Colt, Kimber or Dan Wesson seemed to me to be a better value, but that topic can be (and has been) debated endlessly.

kst8fan
September 16, 2011, 05:15 PM
Looks like Im gonna be ordering a NEW CZ 75b soon. I like the Sig 226 but it will have to wait. A beretta 92 fs will be on the list next. Maybe in about 6 months I will have enough saved up to get a Sig.

excelerater
September 16, 2011, 05:16 PM
I paid just under 700 for my P226 2tone in 40 cal w night sihts

just gotta look out for deals,IMO they are worth the extra money
fit and finish is better than most and trigger is too

WVsig
September 16, 2011, 05:18 PM
Colt, Kimber or Dan Wesson seemed to me to be a better value, but that topic can be (and has been) debated endlessly.

Kimber???? Kimber is the worst value in 1911s. The most MIM in a $1000+ 1911 on the market.

Dan Wesson used to be a better value when you could get a CBOB for $900.

Colt is Colt and always will be and will hold its value better than almost any gun and these means a lot in terms of judging objective value. IMHO. Ver few pistols can be purchased at the right price shot for 2000+ rounds and sold for what you have in it. :)

kst8fan
September 16, 2011, 05:40 PM
Been looking at the Beretta 92A1 also. Has all the features of the 92fs, but has a rail and recoil buffer. Not too educated on the recoil buffer as I have never shot a gun that had one. Now too see what the gun shop can do...........after I buy my CZ of course!!

BeachHead
September 16, 2011, 05:51 PM
The 92A1 also has a dovetailed front sight, captive recoil spring, and a newly designed locking block. Nice improvements.

Sparks1957
September 16, 2011, 05:51 PM
I probably wouldn't buy a truckload of them since there are so many other fine pistols out there, but I love my two Sigs.

I trust these 2 guns with my life after thousands of rounds without a single malfunction of any kind... quite extraordinary level of performance compared to some.

WVsig
September 16, 2011, 05:54 PM
Tanner Sports in PA is the Beretta 92fs man! $489 NIB!

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=250125008

Shadow9
September 16, 2011, 05:56 PM
I think Sig is overpriced on some, and on-target with others. The P220 is hard to beat in the .45 market, and after looking at Sig engineering - they've got some SERIOUSLY good ideas - simple yet effective. Accuracy/reliability is insane, I will agree, and the P220 is a flagship of this, worth every penny IMO.

But, given that they're now DOMESTIC pistols, going for an IMPORT rate, YES, they're overpriced.

Microgunner
September 16, 2011, 06:47 PM
The prices will come down just as soon as they quit selling. Until then, I guess they're priced just right.

Chris_B
September 16, 2011, 06:49 PM
Depends on where you live and local laws in the US, if that's your nation- as always

I paid 800 for a 1988 P226 a few years back, and never, ever regretted it. Wonderful pistol, sweet trigger, even taking into account DA. A joy to own and shoot. I happily count this pistol among my stable, and enjoy it as much as my Series 70 or Model of 1903, etc

Don Glock
September 16, 2011, 06:51 PM
Kimber???? Kimber is the worst value in 1911s. The most MIM in a $1000+ 1911 on the market.

Kimber has the same amount of MIM as many others, they just use low quality MIM.

Chris_B
September 16, 2011, 07:06 PM
Again with the anti-MIM

I can make a forged steel part that sucks. If the part is inferior, fine. But I'm sick of reading about how MIM is bad because it's metal injection molding. if the engineering and design back up the choice of MIM then there's no problem. MIM as a process is not bad just because it's chosen for the wrong reasons. I can cite stamped parts that are superior to milled steel forgings

If the internet was around in 1938, we'd still be casting doubt on stamped parts

johnbt
September 16, 2011, 07:12 PM
"they just use low quality MIM"

They do?

After 20k+ rounds is something going to break on my 1999 Stainless Gold Match?

Kimber sells more .45s than all the others combined and there are few problems reported. I like Colts too.

Don Glock
September 16, 2011, 07:35 PM
"they just use low quality MIM"

They do?

After 20k+ rounds is something going to break on my 1999 Stainless Gold Match?

Kimber sells more .45s than all the others combined and there are few problems reported. I like Colts too.


you're right. your particular case proves all the kimber complaints wrong.

btw, kimber does sell more than any one manufacturer, but not all others combined. sorry.

Shadi Khalil
September 16, 2011, 07:42 PM
http://tapatalk.com/mu/b8c99c75-eb3c-4eba.jpg

Around 6 years ago, I paid somewhere near $700 for this Sig, NIB w/night sites. It's by far the best handgun I've ever owned. It's not the most expensive gun I've ever owned but to me it's worth more than any of them. Why? Because I shoot it better than any gun I own(ed) and it fits my hand just perfectly. 6 years ago if I had know how much I'd love this gun, I would have easily paid double for it.

Shadi Khalil
September 16, 2011, 07:53 PM
Again with the anti-MIM

I can make a forged steel part that sucks. If the part is inferior, fine. But I'm sick of reading about how MIM is bad because it's metal injection molding. if the engineering and design back up the choice of MIM then there's no problem. MIM as a process is not bad just because it's chosen for the wrong reasons. I can cite stamped parts that are superior to milled steel forgings

If the internet was around in 1938, we'd still be casting doubt on stamped parts

Well put. it's easily the most logical thing I've read all day.

RamItOne
September 16, 2011, 08:39 PM
How could the Internet be around in 1938, didn't Gore invent it. Ha

Plus 1 on it not being over priced if people are buying it.

It's all a matter of opinion, taste and what you want out of the gun. I've been averaging buying one gun every 45 days so far this year, (around 7k including ammo) I'm glad I've got them vs dropping 2,500 on the 226 X5. I'm just starting my collection. I love both sigs I have, the low end 250C and middle range 1911 tradition match elite (haven't shot much since it's spent more time back at Exeter than in my hand) and hope to add the 226 x5 some time, cause it'll sure as hell make a good BBQ gun.

Didn't Mick say you can't always get what you want...

Bottom line, stay in your price range, enjoy what you have and keep your groupings tight.

kst8fan
September 16, 2011, 08:56 PM
Sounds like most of us agree that sigs are good guns, some like them more than others though. Im convinced that I will get a geat gun in the CZ 75b and/or Beretta 92fs/92a1. I can always save up to get a Sig, but right now they are out of my price range.

RC20
September 16, 2011, 10:24 PM
Guess I missed something.

Nelson Tactical is selling Sig SP2022 (no sight sights) for $379

Got a quote from Buds for one with night sights for $460.

Seems thats in the price range. Not that I disagree with buying what appeals to you, but it takes nothing from any gun at twice the price and ....

Tactical Jackalope
September 17, 2011, 12:43 AM
Yeah, +1 on my SIG being worth every cent I paid for it :)

Major Beef
September 17, 2011, 04:32 AM
I've always wanted a Sig, then I handled a buddy's Sig P226 and dry fired it, don't really want one anymore. It also made me feel much better about my FNX9 & CZ75B purchases.

It comes down to personal preference. If it fits your hands well, and if you like the trigger and the way the gun operates, it's well worth the $600-700s price tag.

JohnKSa
September 17, 2011, 05:06 AM
It all depends.

If you really want one and have the money then go for it. I don't believe you'll be disappointed. It's almost always a mistake to buy something you don't really want because it's a little cheaper than what you really do want. I've got a few guns that don't make any financial sense--I could have had something just as good and paid significantly less. But I bought them anyway because I really wanted them.

On the other hand, if you have a set of requirements in mind (as opposed to a yen for a particular SIG product), look around at some other options--odds are pretty decent that you'll be able to find something that will fill the bill but with a smaller price tag.

American Eagle
September 17, 2011, 05:44 AM
Some gun manufacturers like SIG charge an arm and a leg...but they have the quality to back it up. However, expensive doesn't always means better. There are plenty of guns out there that are reliable and can be had for way less money. To each his own. The way I see it, there is nothing wrong with having many choices at different price levels. Variety is good!

trex1310
September 17, 2011, 06:43 AM
I bought a Sig 229 Equinox. That was one of the worst guns I ever
owned. You couldn't shoot a complete magazine without a jam.
Three trips back to Sig and still FTF's and FTE's. I've read and heard
about "break-in" and that you need to fire about 500 rounds to
settle the gun in. For $1,000 the gun should already be broken in.
Needless to say, I traded the Sig for a SA XDM and never looked back.

graysmoke
September 17, 2011, 07:01 AM
Heard about this:
Down in Miami, Florida approx 10 years ago a fella owned a brand new Sig 9mm and always carried it concealed.
He was shot dead by a another fella with a Raven .25 caliber Pocket Pistol.
I want to include - This is a situation I heard about in a conversation. If it is true or not, I could believe something like that happening.

Bottom Line - It's not the Price Value or Brand Name of the gun. But who has the Faster Advantage and Pull of the Trigger.

Chris_B
September 17, 2011, 07:20 AM
graysmoke, by that logic, a rock is superior to any firearm because I can hit you on the head with it while you are unawares and carrying your choice of concealed weapon

Your story seems to be an extreme case of simplification of events

...and on a side note, from reading other posts, I see that SIG is now becoming the Colt of the 21st century- if it's a SIG, it sucks. That's silly talk. Sorry you had a bad one, but really? Glock makes a bad pistol every once in a while. So does Springfield. Want to bet that there's a couple two three thousand lousy CZs out there?

Toyota makes bad examples of wildly popular and reliable cars. Doubt it? then why does Toyota have a warranty? When Sony was the one and only, they made some bad electronics every now and again. These are machines, not infallible examples of light and truth.

Don Glock
September 17, 2011, 07:42 AM
i heard someone with a rock happened to kill an attacker who was packing a sig. we should all carry rocks.

Chris_B
September 17, 2011, 07:46 AM
Igneous is by far the best type

Skadoosh
September 17, 2011, 07:53 AM
True stroy: I purchased a virtually new CPO P226 for under $400 at my LGS.

RamItOne
September 17, 2011, 07:57 AM
Don you gonna change your screen name to Don Rock now?

Microgunner
September 17, 2011, 08:11 AM
Igneous is by far the best type

With a sharp point.

graysmoke
September 17, 2011, 08:20 AM
The topic of this, is about the Sig Prices being so high.
If they are - They are.
Those that can afford them - Awesome, Hey! somebody has to buy them.

For me, my theory is simple. If a gun goes BANG!!BANG!!!BANG!!!....Works for me.

Tactical Jackalope
September 17, 2011, 08:31 AM
TRUE STORY:
Down in Miami, Florida approx 10 years ago a fella owned a brand new Sig 9mm and always carried it concealed.
He was shot dead by a another fella with a Raven .25 caliber Pocket Pistol.

Bottom Line - It's not the Price Value or Brand Name of the gun. But who has the Faster Advantage and Pull of the Trigger.

Uuh......never heard that one before.

Being in the loop of law enforcement I'm sure I would have if it had details of weaponry like that. Explain to me this "true story" please? I've lived in Miami my whole unnormal life.

SA 1911 - XD45 - G21sf - G22 - G27 - Hk USP 40 - SIG P226 E2 - Browning High-Power - S&W M19-3 - CZ-82 - Remington 870

WVsig
September 17, 2011, 09:51 AM
Kimber has the same amount of MIM as many others, they just use low quality MIM.

Read what I wrote and rethink your statement. Kimber has more MIM in it than any other $1000 1911. They have about the same amount of MIM as the sub $500 1911s. Colt has less. Dan Wesson has less. SA has less at that price point. Even Sig has less. For a $1,000 I except better.

Again with the anti-MIM

I can make a forged steel part that sucks. If the part is inferior, fine. But I'm sick of reading about how MIM is bad because it's metal injection molding. if the engineering and design back up the choice of MIM then there's no problem. MIM as a process is not bad just because it's chosen for the wrong reasons. I can cite stamped parts that are superior to milled steel forgings

If the internet was around in 1938, we'd still be casting doubt on stamped parts

I did not say MIM is bad in and of itself. But you have to ask why is MIM being used. Is it being used because it is better? No it is being used because it is cheaper to produce. It makes sense in lower end guns where you have to it a sub $500 price point but in a $1,000 Kimber or a $1,000 Sig? Sorry but for my money that is unacceptable.

The problem with cheap 1911s is that they use modern manufacturing techniques to cut down the costs. MIM & CNC for example. The 1911 was designed during a time when manual labor was cheaper than machine labor. This is no longer the case. It is the cheapening of the 100 year old design which gets companies into trouble. CNC and MIM can be done right. Casting can work, ask Caspian & Dan Wesson, but with every design, spec change or cheapened part there can be issues.

Kimber did a great job initially of incorporating these cost cutting measures to produce a lower cost semi-custom like 1911 from a production line. They got themselves into trouble as they tried to squeeze more profit out of the process. They unfornately cheapened it to the point of failure. They are still trying to recover from the damage that race to the bottom line. Sig is now run by Cohen who is running the same playbook for Sigs sake I hope they end up with better results.

collector rob
September 17, 2011, 10:15 AM
Back to the original question. Have you looked on Guns America? There are several German or Swiss police trade-in P226's priced between $489 and $639. These are the generally more desirable German made guns. Don't let finish wear scare you away. That can be easily fixed.

Lateck
September 17, 2011, 10:27 AM
I own SIGs and Rugers... More Rugers then Sigs :o
My "Best Shooting" gun is my SR9c Ruger......
My "Nicest looking" gun is my SIG P220EQ......
It's like comparing a Land Rover to a Toyota Land Cruiser .... The Rover is "More refined" BUT the Cruiser gets you there...

I'm happy with both of my brands.... :)

So as to the original question: Are SIG's worth their price, YES. To me. ;)


Lateck,

Ridge_Runner_5
September 17, 2011, 10:43 AM
TRUE STORY:
Down in Miami, Florida approx 10 years ago a fella owned a brand new Sig 9mm and always carried it concealed.
He was shot dead by a another fella with a Raven .25 caliber Pocket Pistol.
I want to include - This is a situation I heard about in a conversation. If it is true or not, I could believe something like that happening.

Bottom Line - It's not the Price Value or Brand Name of the gun. But who has the Faster Advantage and Pull of the Trigger.

A friend of mine bought a Sig P226 a few years ago...three weeks later, BAM! Herpes.

WVsig
September 17, 2011, 11:00 AM
I used to buy a lot of Sigs but these days not so much. Lets see I have owned or still own:

P220 X 3
P226 Navy
P226 Tactical W/work from Gray Guns
P226 W/ Barsto Barrel
P225
P228 X 3
P245
SP2022
Sig GSR Gen 1 Caspian frame Storm Lake barrel
P250
P239 357 Sig & 40 S&W

I love them and cut my teeth on the but these days the product has been cheapened and the prices are still just as high. With all that said I understand that it had to happen. Prior to Cohen Sig was a dying company which was hemorrhaging money and at one point did not look like it would survive.

PS: Perfect subject for my #1000 post here on TFL.... LOL

Don Glock
September 17, 2011, 11:05 AM
Read what I wrote and rethink your statement. Kimber has more MIM in it than any other $1000 1911. They have about the same amount of MIM as the sub $500 1911s. Colt has less. Dan Wesson has less. SA has less at that price point. Even Sig has less. For a $1,000 I except better.

no, they don't. $1,000 1911's all have MIM. find me one that doesn't. got news for ya, DW's are $1,500 and use cast and tool steel in place of MIM which is no better. they are NOT bar stock machined parts. it's just a marketing ploy.

colt uses plastic MSH's, MIM, and cast parts.


springfield armory uses mostly MIM, there are even some on the PRO model that the FBI HST uses. however, they are good quality.

proxpilot
September 17, 2011, 11:07 AM
A friend of mine bought a Sig P226 a few years ago...three weeks later, BAM! Herpes.
Well there you have it guys. How can a SIG be worth anything if it doesn't even protect you against Herpes??

Amin Parker
September 17, 2011, 11:49 AM
I was thinking of buying a Sig but how will i explain the Herpes to my wife???

So you do get F%^#&ed with the price, that would explain the sexually transmitted disease.

Ok on a serious note, they really are great guns that deserve to be rated high on all the rankings. They are very expensive and as others have pointed out, you get more gun per Dollar with CZ.

Chris_B
September 17, 2011, 03:55 PM
I did not say MIM is bad in and of itself. But you have to ask why is MIM being used. Is it being used because it is better? No it is being used because it is cheaper to produce. It makes sense in lower end guns where you have to it a sub $500 price point but in a $1,000 Kimber or a $1,000 Sig? Sorry but for my money that is unacceptable.


But you also did not supply this caveat with your previous statement. I am not a mind-reader. I can only read your posts

varoadking
September 17, 2011, 05:08 PM
springfield armory uses mostly MIM, there are even some on the PRO model that the FBI HST uses. however, they are good quality.

That would be the FBI HRT...Hostage Rescue Team

Don Glock
September 17, 2011, 05:18 PM
That would be the FBI HRT...Hostage Rescue Team

gee, thanx. i'm sure we all knew it was a simple typing error.

Microgunner
September 17, 2011, 05:46 PM
gee, thanx. i'm sure we all knew it was a simple typing error.

Nope, I think you were subconsciously referring to the FBI "Hubble Space Telescope" spy division.:D

Don Glock
September 17, 2011, 06:34 PM
Lol:D

WVsig
September 19, 2011, 12:48 PM
no, they don't. $1,000 1911's all have MIM. find me one that doesn't. got news for ya, DW's are $1,500 and use cast and tool steel in place of MIM which is no better. they are NOT bar stock machined parts. it's just a marketing ploy

Again you are not listing to what I am saying. KIMBER has more MIM parts in them than any $1000 pistol. MIM is there to save KIMBER $$$ on production. It it not there to make the pistol better it is there to reduce cost. This makes sense in a sub $500 pistol not so much in a $1000.

MIM parts in a Kimber: 13 in a Kimber including the series II extractor.

hammer
sear
disconnector
firing pin stop
grip safety
thumb safety
slide stop
front sight
rear sight
plunger tube
mag release
ejector
Series II external extractor

MIM parts in a Colt: 4 Plus a plastic mainspring on a 80 series gun.

Magazine Catch
Mag Catch Lock
Sear
Disconnector

Molded Nylon:
Mainspring Housing on 80 series guns.

MIM parts in a SA TRP Total of 9

Sear
Disconnector
Slide Stop
Grip Safety
firing pin stop
mag catch
Hammer
MSH
Thumb Safety

MIM parts in a SA Pro total of 4 but this is a $2000 pistol which for me is unaccceptable. If Wilson, Les Baer, Ed Brown can deliver non-mim pistols at this price point then SA should be able to do the same. IMHO

slide stop
firing pin stop
mag catch
disconnector

I am not arguing that MIM is good or bad. I personally prefer bar stock parts in my 1911s. I would take good casting over MIM. What I am saying is that MIM is a cost cutting measure and for me personally is not something I want. I am willing to pay more for higher quality. Others might not.

Although this MIM discussion is not about Sigs it relates directly to Sig because Ron Cohen now runs Sig and he ran Kimber when it grew its volume and increased the the use of cheaper and cheaper MIM.

Tom Servo
September 19, 2011, 03:33 PM
$1,000 1911's all have MIM. find me one that doesn't.
Actually, the Sig 1911's have little to no MIM parts. The disconnector on my XO might be, but that's it. Those go for ~$750 new.

Personally, I don't have a problem with MIM parts. I've only seen a couple fail, and in both cases, forged parts would have likely failed under those circumstances as well. While I'm not fond of Kimber's builds, the usage of a large number MIM parts is pretty far down my list of grievances with their products.

Geez, I remember when people complained that the folded steel slides on older Sigs were a recipe for breakage...

StuntManMike
September 19, 2011, 07:43 PM
SIG has come up with the best value IMHO with their 2-step guns. Buy a 22lr P226 for any where from $450 to $550 depending on market and the centerfire conversion in the caliber of your choice for about $300 more when you shop around online.

I am a big CZ fan myself. I have 2 SP01s and a Kadet kit. At today's prices, you would be paying more to get an SP01 and a Kadet kit than the 2-step SIG.

My SIG P229 2-step, out of the box, has a much better trigger than my SP01 after several bricks down range with the SP01.

In summary, I do not think that SIGs are over priced if you go the 2-step route. If you don't then the pricing falls into H&K range and it is sort of a wash (H&K guns shoot like magic for me).