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View Full Version : Is an HK Pistol really worth the money?


Steven_Seagal
September 15, 2011, 02:23 PM
I know their guns are quality, but is the HK really worth the additional money? I can get a nice XD(M) 9mm for <$675 or drop an additional $200 for a HK P30. Now I realize they are completely different guns and the trigger's are not the same and blah blah blah. However, are you paying for a name or are HK pistols infallible or something? I own an XD45 and have over 2000 rounds through it with only one hiccup and that was a bad primer so it wasn't even the gun's fault.

Any HK owners able to shed some light? how does it stack up to Sig?

ElrodCod
September 15, 2011, 02:29 PM
Not my money.

doc540
September 15, 2011, 02:31 PM
Yes

IMHO, they're the top of the heap when it comes to plastic guns.

Of course, I've never paid more than $650 for any of the half dozen or so I've ever bought.

Since I shoot a 1911 mostly, the HK USP Var1 controls are intuitive.

mxracr
September 15, 2011, 02:32 PM
HK is as close to infallable as you can get. However, so is Sig, Glock, and a I'm sure a few thers. I got a killer deal on my USP and I love it. At normal price? No way would I have bought mine. Thats just a lot of money. Then, I think a lot (most) of the 1911's and many of the rifles are just stupidly priced.

I guess if you like it enough better, then the price is justified. Quality is unquestionable. Just my opinion.

Coltman 77
September 15, 2011, 02:40 PM
IMO HK's are worth the additional money but it's up to each shooter to determine what's best for them.



A friend of mine, G3 Kurz recently posted this at another forum and I'd like to share it with you.



"Why HK pistols (and HK firearms in general) are more expensive than their competitors.

1. Most are designed, built and tested to NATO MIL specs (ACC-225), not commercial specs. NATO specs includes tests not conducted by many commercial makers such as drop tests, obstructed bore tests, extreme temps, ice, static sand, OTB, elevated/depressed, etc.

2. All (100%) of HK firearms are test fired and zeroed at the factory. In some companies only a % are tested.

3. HK materials (steel, barrel, etc.) are of the highest quality available and it shows in long-term or worst case scenarios. The superior barrel performance is a good example, though you may never see it in casual use.

4. HK pistols are not assembled by armorers’ students and then sold to customers. Some companies have been known to do so.

5. The average German worker is paid at a far higher rate than the equivalent US worker. Part of the reasons why includes the mandatory training they must receive and tests they must pass before receiving the position. The cost of living in Germany is also higher and HK contributes to a substantial “Pensioner Fund” for its retirees. Many also work at the same company for decades and not uncommon are 40 year employees!) and therefore rise high on the pay scale for their extensive hard-earned skill and experience.

6. HK barrels are made by a cold hammer forged process using a material that is unique to HK guns. Many barrels get special HK-unique steps added such as a tapered, poly, hybrid poly bore profile or induction hardening and all long-gun barrels are straightened. As an example, Stelite liners are not used in HK MG barrels – they are simply not needed and perform as well or better.

7. Compare the polymer molding and machining of say an HK P30 and a SIG P229. It is RARE to see machining marks on an HK.

8. HK rigorously tests their products to destruction in a "Firing Lab" manned with very senior test personnel before the design is frozen. This reduces the incidence of post-release issues. HK also takes and test its products at remote environmental test facilities to include desert (Yuma Proving Grounds, Saudi Arabia), arctic (Norway, Alaska), jungle (Brunei, Panama). That costs BIG bucks but pays off in hard core performance.

9. HK guns are imported for the most part (or the parts used to assemble them in NH) are imported. That results in mandatory FET, freight and exchange rate subsidies being added and passed on to the customer. HK as a German gun maker and importer they also have to comply with stringent export controls and that too costs money, which gets passed along in sale prices.

10. The cost of the production tooling (and materials) used by HK to produce, assemble and QA product is high as it includes QA tests and steps not conducted by many other makers. HK cut its teeth as a mass producer and still today builds the production tooling with that in mind – high volumes with a lot of automation. That tooling and gauging costs money as does the high hourly rates of the skilled workers and the additional time required to conduct it.

11. 10-20% of HK’s annual operating budget is spent on its extensive “Technique” departments to include Design, Prototype Fabrication and the Firing Lab. These are the highest paid, most skilled workers at HK and that costs money as well. They are best of breed and always have many more projects up in the air then you might think, or know of (Phased Plasma Rifle in the 80 watt Range).

12. HK places itself purposely in the “higher end” of the market. Like BMW and Mercedes HK knows it rates are higher and always will be compared to say Colt, S&W, Beretta, etc. So they go after superior performance and quality at a higher price point to fewer purchasers versus a cheaper, lower quality product to more buyers.

13. @ 15% of HK annual revenue is reinvested in new products, and infrastructure. While that may not seem like a lot it is and the state of the factory at in Oberndorf shows it. Look at the state of their competitors factories. There are few that compare to HK GmbH in the eyes of those who have been to many others. HK spends the revenue it makes off of both commercial and Government sales on new product so in a way the US commercial buyer who purchases an HK45 pistol helps fund the development of the MG4 LMG or XM25.

14. HK builds much of the weapon parts in house to maintain quality control. While cheaper subs are available one loses some control in doing so. HK’s goal has always been to minimize cost but maintain quality and to do so it keeps many items in house that in many others companies go to the higher bidder (magazines, small piece parts, etc.). HK also has some of the very best MIM and molding capabilities and can thus up the quality of their product by using their own, superior product.

15. Like HK, HK’s subs are of a higher quality for the same reasons and with the same end results. You buy the very best frame mold in Germany, it will cost you but the end product is superior.

16. Interchangeable parts – very few HK parts are not fully interchangeable without hand fitting. Even in a gun like the GMG, there are no parts that require hand fitting. This requires that each and every raw material and finished part, and each tool that fabricates the part, is dimensionally and exactly the same and maintained the same at all time by constant checks by skilled personnel with high dollar measuring devices and gauges. Again something you may never see but it insures when you replace a part it both fits and works w/o modifications.

17. HK has voluntarily developed, tested and included in their product unique features like USP firing mode modularity, MK23 barrel O-rings, special high performance finishes, unique G36/HK416 gas systems, drop-in LEM trigger systems, side-loading 40mm grenade launchers, GMG’s with extruded aluminum receivers and HK211’s with Ti receivers, unique cartridges for things like MP7 and P46, etc. HK also makes over 100 models of HK firearms currently and 1000’s of modular variants for users the world over speaking many languages, which costs money to build, inventory, document and record these countless production variations.

There are a few other reasons which I will not mention here."


G3Kurz

PSP
September 15, 2011, 02:51 PM
What he said. ;)

Top quality comes at a price.

Steven_Seagal
September 15, 2011, 02:56 PM
well I think that post is sufficient. Sounds like I may have to save up for a p30 after all

HKFan9
September 15, 2011, 03:02 PM
To me they are yes. My P7 is sitting right next to my keyboard this very moment.

BigJimP
September 15, 2011, 03:02 PM
Yes, I think they're worth it ...H&K makes good guns ...and I would take it over an XD and most anything else - except some of the offerings from Sig ...like the 226 models. And yes, blah, blah, blah ...its because of the triggers, fit, finish, durability, etc ....at least in my opinion.

Cost is important ---- but its not an overriding factor to me. It always comes down to how a gun fits my hands / and ergonomically - does it meet my needs. I happen to think that Wilson Combats new spec ops model ...a poly frame 1911, that is a double stack in 9mm...is a very interesting gun ...and yes, it lists at $ 2,195 ...but its a gun worth a serious look.

http://www.wilsoncombat.com/p_specops.htm

x3m
September 15, 2011, 03:04 PM
coltman ? should call himself HKman ;) after all that all I can say is , nuff said:D gonna buy me an HK

temmi
September 15, 2011, 03:21 PM
Yes,

If the fit your hand hey are great guns.

chuckles
September 15, 2011, 03:36 PM
Yes they are. Coltman summed it all up in the above post. I love Sigs, and all the rest but H&K is what I trust when I need a gun. JMHO of course!:cool:

zombieslayer
September 15, 2011, 03:39 PM
I believe that they are.

Sixer
September 15, 2011, 03:55 PM
Short answer - YES.

Dobe
September 15, 2011, 04:42 PM
It's my favorite handgun manufacturer.

Mrgunsngear
September 15, 2011, 04:58 PM
I've shot many HK and no doubt they are excellent firearms. Are they worth the money? For my money, no. I believe M&Ps, FNs, and Glocks (Gen4 9s excluded) are equally good and are much cheaper.

If you have money to burn; absolutely get one. But for $900ish dollars you can get a M&P 9 and get a few hundred rounds to practice with and will be much better served if that is all you have to spend on shooting.

Microgunner
September 15, 2011, 05:03 PM
I own two SA XDs and three HKs and both make fine pistols but if I had to choose it'd be HK hands down. They are deluxe.

threegun
September 15, 2011, 05:15 PM
Paying higher salary's because of cost of living in Germany and investing 20 percent of profits into infrastructure? I'm gonna sell all my 9 Glocks and buy me 4 HK's now LOL.

Seriously the HK is a fine pistol. Personally I wouldn't buy them if they cost less than my Glocks but thats just personal preference. They appear to be well made and functional.

To answer the OP officially heck no they are not worth the money. They offer nothing that the Glock, XD, M&P, or even Ruger can't give you except supposed name prestige.

If you choose the HK for fit and feel then ok if its for some supposed advantage or superiority then you are wasting your money.

predecessor
September 15, 2011, 05:27 PM
Yep - H&K makes a fine quality pistol and yes, they are worth the money. That doesn't mean you can't find a less expensive quality pistol -- I own several in this category because I shoot them better than H&K's - But if I shot the H&K better than I would have no problem paying the extra money for one.

WVsig
September 15, 2011, 05:40 PM
IMHO no... I have had quite a few P30, USP 9mm HK45 and the only one that is still in the stable is the P7 which I just took to the range.

Great piece a little over hyped but still a great piece.

Hammerhead
September 15, 2011, 05:40 PM
IMO, the HK 45s (USP 45, HK45) are worth it for their unfailing reliability and superb accuracy. No other guns that I have owned have had both qualities in spades.

The 9mm and .40 versions were high quality, reliable guns, but lacked the stellar accuracy of the .45 versions.

If I had to pick one handgun, sight unseen, to bet my life on, it would be the USP .45.

Don Glock
September 15, 2011, 06:24 PM
no polymer pistol is worth a grand, especially one with an "accurizer" rubber band.

Naterstein
September 15, 2011, 06:38 PM
I've owned an USP. I loved it, but was it worth the money? No. You can buy guns just as accurate and reliable for a lot less money.

Proprietary rail system, hella-expensive magazines, heavy DA pull... Never used their CS, but I doubt it is on par with S&W or Glock.

Would I buy another if I had everything else I wanted and the money... yes.

This time I would go LEM HK45 probably.

Willie Lowman
September 15, 2011, 06:44 PM
I would say yes they are worth the money to me.

It should be known that I am somewhat of a handgun snob and high-dollar European pistols are what I like.

BeachHead
September 15, 2011, 06:50 PM
It'd be nice to add a P2000 to the collection, but I think I'd be just as happy with an M&P9.

UZO
September 15, 2011, 07:20 PM
H&K makes an EXCELLENT pistol!...
Owned a 9mm USP Compact... flawless shoot, extremely accurate and extremely well made...
Only recommendation is to shop price and try to get NIB as cheap as you can!!!

Bentonville
September 15, 2011, 07:35 PM
Without a doubt. I have owned or presently own most models of HK handguns. I regret ever selling any of them (circumstances beyond my control). Most owners of HKs seem to agree that HK makes some of the best firearms available.

gyvel
September 16, 2011, 02:24 AM
H&Ks are another weapon that are more expensive than they should be because of their name, much like some German cars we all know and love.

priler
September 16, 2011, 03:14 AM
i've been an h&k fan for years but i remember the time when the USP first started coming out. according to h&k,the USP was the first hk pistol designed especially for "american shooters". this was their perception,not mine. this was about the time that i thought to myself that hk had "sold out" and their aura of incredible engineering diminished some.

i really love the hk designs that were unique. the p9s and p7s.

do i really think there's anything wrong with any of the "modern" designs,no,but for the price and especially when others such as the walther p99 AS and now the PPQ have better triggers and grips(excepting the p30s) and are built very well,are refined weapons made to last and actually offer weight and money savings,there's just too much going against them for me.

loose_holster_dan
September 16, 2011, 06:43 AM
it really depends on the model. i would go with the xdm 45 over any of their 45 models, including the p2000 or the usp, regardless of price. the xdm feels so good, and the round count in 45 blows hk out of the water. i would go with a sig 9mm (except the sigpro polymer series) over ANY of their fullsize 9mm models, but only because it fits my hand better than the hk (i have friends who are the opposite. as to compact carry guns, hk wins every time. the p7 blows anything sig or sa have to offer in a compact size. i would say the p2000sk is about comparable to a xd sub compact. both are nice, but i would probably lean towards the p2000sk. the sig p229 is a little on the big side to be compared to the xd subcompact or the hk p7 or p2000sk.

ohen cepel
September 16, 2011, 06:48 AM
I don't own any so I would take that as my vote against them. Overpriced in my mind. Great guns, but just not worth the premium to me.

Plus, I'm just not a fan of polymer guns.

C0untZer0
September 16, 2011, 07:48 AM
Yes

PSP
September 16, 2011, 07:48 AM
...and the round count in 45 blows hk out of the water.

Is two rounds really a game changer? Like the Springfield controls better? OK. Prefer the ergonomics, like the striker action or the trigger? Sure. But 12 versus 14?

Hammerhead
September 16, 2011, 07:38 PM
the xdm feels so good, and the round count in 45 blows hk out of the water.
Let's see, how long has the XDm .45 been out?
How many worn out USP .45s have you shot?
I can understand being a XD fanboy, but don't make crap up and call it fact.

Don Glock
September 16, 2011, 07:55 PM
the xdm feels so good, and the round count in 45 blows hk out of the water.

no way i would take an xdm over an hk.

oneounceload
September 16, 2011, 08:02 PM
HKs are worth exactly what you are willing to pay for them - no more, no less.

Does being made in Germany - with the highest union labor costs, etc., have a bearing? Sure it does, but folks buy Audi, BMW and Mercedes also based on their quality

Ultimately, the decision is yours - look at it this way - buy the HK, if you don't love it, sell it for right about what you paid for it - better resale than any Ruger

TeamSinglestack
September 16, 2011, 08:07 PM
Not for me...

They offer me nothing that I can't get out of a Glock, M&P, or XD, except greater cost...

MEATSAW
September 16, 2011, 10:48 PM
I have been impressed with my P2000. It is a great gun and I feel it is worth the price. Most guns are good but when you start to get picky you start to find very small issues. With my HK it doesn't matter how picky you get it is a perfectly crafted and perfectly functioning handgun that does its job well.

Another thing to consider is that my P2000 was about $220 cheaper than the SIG 229 SAS (Gen 2) that I was also considering and it is the better pistol in my case. Something to consider when discussing price.

As always, your mileage may vary (YMMV).

tahoe2
September 17, 2011, 12:15 AM
purchased mine 6 years ago from a retired LEO( he kept his full sized Glock). this is the only HK I have ever owned and I would never have been able to afford it otherwise. Great gun, easy to shoot well, breaks down super easy; I only have about 500 rounds through it, but never a glitch or hiccup. The LEO bought it as a backup and said he put a few boxes through it.(so virtually new when I got it!!) generally I'm a 1911 guy, but this thing is super nice!! It's my ccw & hd gun. I paid half what it's worth with a DeSantis paddle holster & 1500 rounds of ammo so I'm happy!!

Daekar
September 17, 2011, 08:29 AM
Thanks for the insight in that long list of H&K business practices!

FWIW, my P2000 has been nothing but absolutely reliable. When I am going somewhere high-risk I add it and 2 extra magazines of ammo to my P238, leaving me with 40 rounds of 9mm and 13 rounds of 0.380. Honestly, the chances of me needing even half that are absurdly small, but you gotta have something to balance the weight of the gun on the other side of the shoulder rig. :D

H&K weapons are some of the best weapons money can buy. I count myself lucky to have gotten mine used, otherwise I'd have something ugly like a Glock!

FairWarning
September 17, 2011, 10:19 AM
I think they are when used. I regret I didn't pick up one of the used ex-police P7s that were readily available a few years ago in my area when they were cheap. :(

Buying a HK level gun brand new is a bit like buying a brand new car----you can get the same satisfication from a slightly used one for vastly less money if you are patient/persistent. Problem is, used HKs tend to go fast...

RC20
September 17, 2011, 12:55 PM
The base question being is there $200 or more in better quality (i.e. you get something for that). In this case I don't think you get that in better functioning or accuracy with the HK (Glock, Sig, XD etc all match up, though most Sigs are n the HK range).

If I had an unlimited budget and I wanted a DA/SA type gun I would have the HK on the top of the list, because it has the best grip of semi auto gun I have handled or shot.

In a twist of circumstances, my brother got the HK P30 which I could not afford and I wound up with a Sig SP2022 (maybe the lowest cost high quality DA/SA type pistol you can buy in my opinion).

Side by side shooting the Sig seems to be as accurate as the HK.
Neither has had any malfunctions (variety of ammo in both).

The HK has by far the best grip, though that does not seem to translate into accuracy. It might be an advantage in home defense in quickness of handling and pointing.

The Sig is ok, I don’t care for it just handling it, but it works just fine shooting it.

The Sig probably has the better trigger (that’s subjective but we both think so).

The HK de-cocker is both in a better location and easier to use. The Sig works just fine and while the HK is a nice feature, its not a critical controls and use issue.

Given the choice of money not being an issue I would go with the HK without the safety as the DA works just fine for that (SIg does not offer that option that I know of in the SP2022).

If money was no object I would probably take the HK.

If money was a factor, I would go with the Sig at half the cost.

GONIF
September 17, 2011, 01:04 PM
This is a matter of prefrance and taste. IMHO yes H&K is worth the extra money .Don't forget it will be worth more later if you want to sell it. Why are Porsche and BMW worth more ? People are willing to pay for top quality and preformance .:D

IMTHDUKE
September 17, 2011, 01:22 PM
To me....yes....I never doubt that these will go bang everytime with any ammo...

http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww2/imthduke/GUNS/P30.jpg

http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww2/imthduke/GUNS/62520996517966.jpg

http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww2/imthduke/GUNS/62520996512363.jpg

Nanuk
September 17, 2011, 01:25 PM
It depends on what you want out of the gun. I have carried H&K USP's or P2000's in 40 S&W on duty and shot in IDPA with them for 11 years and have 10's of thousands of rounds through them. They are WAY better then the Beretta I carried before it in every aspect.

I recently switched over to Gen 4 Glock 40's for personal use and IDPA, I still carry the H&K on duty because it is issued and the only authorized handgun.

I find the Glock 23 to be slimmer, lighter and holds 1 more round. The magazines are smaller. The bore axis is lower and for me equates to significantly less muzzle flip than the H&K. I shoot the Glock much better than the H&K and there is a robust aftermarket for any Glock part you can imagine.

Reliability? Both are extremely reliable. My Kimber Pro 1911 is uber reliable, very accurate and worth more than my P2k is it better?

Ok, the Harley rational-It holds its value better..... Well, your investment is higher, so what is your return on your investment?

Which do you prefer? Handgun preference is very personal and influenced by many factors, what is best for one person, may be horrible for another person.

RC20
September 17, 2011, 01:55 PM
Also an automatic vs stick thing in two different action type.

I would have to say you have to like the DA/SA action before it might be worth it to you. Some people switch between the two just fine. So far I have not been able to. So generally its better to stick with whats suits you.

Sigs (other than the SP2022) can be upgraded to better trigger feel.

I would think it would really have to grab you to make the jump from and XD striker to an HK (or a Sig).

ESI Agent
September 17, 2011, 02:04 PM
I had a first generation Ruger P95, at 19650 rounds the extractor broke. Sent it back to Ruger, they fixed it at no chage and put in a new barrel and has been 100% since. Used to carry it on a armed security job I had and qualified expert with it. Is it in the same class as the H/K? no, but it does what is needed to do. If you have surplus cash and it's not an issue or your buying for resale then buy the H/K. If you want something for self defense and range use then you can find something more cost effective and spend more money shooting and taking some defensive shooting classes.'money well spent':rolleyes:

berettaprofessor
September 18, 2011, 08:13 AM
Just held a P30L in my hand for the first time yesterday. Never had a "full-size" caliber that fit my hand better. It's going to be my next purchased handgun.

MagnumWill
September 18, 2011, 10:51 PM
Not for me, as I am a huge 1911 guy. It's a lot like buying a Bentley over a Cadillac- of course the Bentley is nicer, but a Cadillac is still nice and get you where you need to go in style. That enormous rant about HK's manufacturing processes is just the poster's HK mental jerk-off material IMHO. :rolleyes:

Dobe
September 19, 2011, 05:33 PM
While there are many very good handguns on the market, HK is my handgun of choice, particularly the HK45, HK45c, and the P30. HK rarely has quality issues, and they do build solid reliable handguns. Yes, they are worth every penny.

If the price is too high, I suggest the used market. There are some very good deals. I've purchased four HKs, which were previously owned.

jolly roger
September 19, 2011, 09:44 PM
They make fine guns...but they DO break from time to time and their customer service absolutely sucks big time. I know after being an armorer for about 150 H&K USP 45s. Nice guns, but parts take FOREVER. We carry Glock 21SFs and 30s now. No issues and every bit as accurate as the HK.

Now the P7M8??? THAT is a piece of art and engineering excellence. The USP however is just a gun...

C0untZer0
September 19, 2011, 11:23 PM
Yes

DBLAction454
September 20, 2011, 12:30 AM
HK makes a quality weapon. As for the guys cracking the 20% on the infrastructure joke maybe us americans should start doing that cause our infrastructure is crumbling...

Are they expensive? Yes. Do glocks go bang just as much as HK's do? Yes.

But in the end... there is a USP.45 sitting on my nightstand and it will be on my hip tomorrow. Why? Because they are quality made firearms and I shoot fantastically with it. And I trust that weapon with my life. Flawless operation since day one and it still looks brand new :) there's just something about it that feels refined in that pistol that i don't feel in a glock

I love glocks, berettas, and springfields and would buy any one of them if it fit what I was looking for. They are quality firearms as well. But I don't feel one ounce of buyers remorse for the extra $ for my USP.

Hope this helps.

P.S. HK's customer service did indeed used to be AWFUL but they have since improved immensely

FM12
September 20, 2011, 01:36 AM
Kinda like Rolex watches. No one goes to the water cooler on Monday and announces" well, bought me a new Timex over the weekend." No bragging there. Even tho the Timex keeps time just as well. Cant brag on Monday"Well, bought me a CZ over the week end". Where's the macho "I spend more on my guns than u do" bravado?

My Sigs work just fine for me. Bite me, HK boys!

Dobe
September 20, 2011, 06:07 AM
Ironic, when Sig prices are as high as HK's.

MarineCorpsAT
September 20, 2011, 10:26 AM
Bravado for getting what we want? Really? Personally I do not care what anyone shoots or likes it is your money and time do with it what you will.

My first gun was a Glock 19. It does what it is designed to do, it is simple and reliable. My wife just got me an HK P30 and was it worth the addtional money? In my opinion yes. It is an amazing gun for me it is more comfortable to shoot than the Glock is. When I put it side by side with the Glock you can see that it is put together better and looks like a better quality gun. I have no issues with the Glock, in fact I trust it enough that it is my wife's gun now.


FM12- I am glad you are happy with your Sigs..That is the point any purchase that we make in fact I love my Sig 556 but posting about bravado and then telling "HK fanboys" to bite you shoots down your argument.

With the HK I feel I am getting what I paid for and to me that is all that matters, if you are happy with a purchase aftward then was it worth the money I would say Yes.

Micahweeks
September 20, 2011, 10:51 AM
The USP9 was my favorite duty gun for quite a time. I feel like they are worth it.

chadio
September 20, 2011, 11:12 AM
Hmmm... I have a feeling that next year's tax return will allow me to answer this question.

loose_holster_dan
September 20, 2011, 11:12 AM
i think it may be about time to close this thread.

DBLAction454
September 20, 2011, 12:16 PM
Ironic, when Sig prices are as high as HK's.

+1

SadistAssassin
September 20, 2011, 04:40 PM
YES....I love my HK45....I am primarily a revolver guy.....I own 5 revolvers and only 1 automatic....I figured if was going to have only one i'd get the best...used to have a 1911....when i got my HK i almost immediatly sold the 1911....

aarondhgraham
September 20, 2011, 04:43 PM
In a word,,,
Yes.

But only if you love the gun.

I mean, who am I to talk,,,
I recently dropped $725.00 for a .22 pistol,,,
One could ask the same question about Beretta pistols.

If you want it and it will make you smile,,,
It's worth the money.

Aarond

jayhan
September 20, 2011, 05:02 PM
hay steven sounds to me like you answered your own question if you have and xd with over 2000 rounds threw it with no issues. I would buy the xdm and spend the extra 200 on ammo. If you like the springfield and it shoots well for you go with it

CUBAN REDNECK
September 20, 2011, 05:09 PM
NO...:cool:

Chui
September 20, 2011, 05:49 PM
Depends if you can (a) comfortably afford it and (b) appreciate the differences it offers over the others.

Bentonville
September 20, 2011, 07:07 PM
Jolly Roger, It must have been a while since you have dealt with HK Customer Service? I have several personal experiences with HK CS that have been totally professional and efficient. I have sent in pistols that I purchased used to have night sights, ramps polished or new springs installed and the turnaround was very quick. They honor warranties even on used guns.

Many folks that I know that have had to use CS for one reason or another have been totally pleased. Travis and the other staff members really know the product. I believe HK saw the public perception problem with CS and made a huge change over the past few years.

Dobe
September 20, 2011, 07:26 PM
That's been my experience also. HK's customer service has been revamped.

Glockfan36
September 20, 2011, 08:02 PM
I would not, under any circumstances! I do want the compact XDM9 though! I intend for it to be ny new ccw gun! Someday I'll own the 5.25" Competition model too.

Stevie-Ray
September 20, 2011, 11:30 PM
Short answer-no.

HKFan9
September 20, 2011, 11:36 PM
Paid $280 for my HK P7 a few months back... short answer... worth every cent...:rolleyes:;)

osageid
September 20, 2011, 11:51 PM
After owning an HK and comparing to other guns I own, yes! They ARE wel crafted and designed. My next handgun will be a HK either a USP tactical .45 or a Mark 23 . Why because I can afford it but also I love them and my last name is also Koch. That being said I looking at more glocks and a few Springfields :)

C0untZer0
September 21, 2011, 02:20 AM
I think you said before how you got a P7 for $280 but I can't remember...

How did you do that?

pck823
September 21, 2011, 06:49 AM
I started off with a P-2000 and the HK collection grew to over 10 with USP's and USP compacts in 9/40/45. I shot a friend's Sig Sauer P226 and immediately decided to liquidate the HK's and get a Sig, which I did in fact do. My go to pistol is now a Sig Sauer P226 combat.

Out of all of the polymer-framed pistols, HK's are definitely better than most but I was just amazed at how much better I can shoot with the Sig. I was never able to get comfortable with the LEM trigger on the P2000 and the SA/DA triggers on the variant 1's is not in the same league as the trigger on the Sig. On a more subjective note, I always had doubts (unfounded for sure) that a polymer-frames pistol just had a lot more slop in the overall dimensional tolerancing.

10mm4ever
September 21, 2011, 07:21 AM
Different flavors for every income range. This is what being a consumer is all about, as it applies to everything from radios to automobiles.

2ndamd
September 21, 2011, 09:20 AM
Use to own several and now own NONE!
Short answer: NO not worth the money.

Sturmgewehre
September 21, 2011, 07:45 PM
"Worth" is a subjective word. What I might find worthwhile someone else wouldn't.

Are there guns as reliable as HK's? Absolutely. Are there guns better looking than HK's? I think so. Are there guns as well built as HK's? Yup. So is it worth more to pay for the HK name when you can find something else that's similar for less? That's only a question you can answer.

Are HK's good? Yup, they are. Are they worth the money they command? Not to me, and I've owned a number of them (and still do).

AustinTX
September 21, 2011, 08:01 PM
Is an HK Pistol really worth the money?

Only the buyer can ultimately determine that, of course. I think the HK polymer guns are excellent but slightly overhyped pistols that don't represent a very good value. I personally find the prices a bit silly for polymer-framed pistols with some MIM components. But higher prices for an excellent product help build cachet and exclusivity, and that's certainly part of HK's marketing strategy.

Of course these thoughts didn't stop me from buying my USP Elite, which I still think is a great gun (even with its ridiculously subpar "match" trigger and a few other irritating flaws). Obviously I'm willing to pay that "silly" price if I like the gun enough. But I think the HK fanboys go a little over the top in pumping up the polymer lineup. They're high-quality pistols on par with other high-quality manufacturers, but generally for a higher price.

AustinTX
September 21, 2011, 08:04 PM
I should have just quoted Sturmgewehre's post. :)

dsk
September 21, 2011, 08:13 PM
I really like the grip feel on most HK's, but the horribly rough, heavy DA pull always stops me from considering one. Given their price point they should have triggers as smooth as butter, yet they don't.

tulsamal
September 21, 2011, 08:35 PM
I really like the grip feel on most HK's, but the horribly rough, heavy DA pull always stops me from considering one. Given their price point they should have triggers as smooth as butter, yet they don't.

My HK45 is a standard DA/SA. The DA pull is heavier than I would like but there is nothing "rough" about it. My P2000 LEM has an amazingly light and smooth pull. If it was any lighter or smoother, you wouldn't be able to tell you were pulling it!

As to the question "are HK's worth it?".... I've got four of them so I must think they are worthwhile. IMO, there is a "point of diminishing returns" with them. By that I mean they truly are better but the amount they are better is smaller than the dollar amount separating their prices. For instance, I very much prefer the HK P2000 LEM to a Glock 19. (And I like Glocks so it's not because I'm anti-Glock.) But let's say the G19 is $500 and the HK is $800. That's 60% more money. Now I like the HK a lot but even I won't try to argue that it is fundamentally a 60% better gun.

It's just the way quality often works. You pay 10% more, you might get 10% better. You pay 20% more, you get 15% better. In this case, you pay 60% more and you maybe get 25% better. If it is a gun you are going to carry every day and stake your life on, maybe you are willing to pay the extra money.

And "what you get for the money" varies a bit by model. When I got my German made HK45, I absolutely thought it was worth $850. Everything I looked at just reeked quality. Fit my hand perfectly, shot like a dream. Still a favorite. But when I got the P2000 and took it all apart, it really was hard to see how they can charge $800 for one. It's high quality but it's still very simple.

In my case, I decided I was willing to pay extra for that little bit of extra "whatever" that HK seems to put into their handguns.

Gregg

AustinTX
September 21, 2011, 08:44 PM
Most guns are good but when you start to get picky you start to find very small issues. With my HK it doesn't matter how picky you get it is a perfectly crafted and perfectly functioning handgun that does its job well.

Let me have a look at your HK and I promise you I will find numerous small issues to be picky about, just as I would on any other current mass-production gun. I don't even need to see your HK to start naming a few.

C0untZer0
September 21, 2011, 09:10 PM
Yes

HKFan9
September 21, 2011, 09:22 PM
I think you said before how you got a P7 for $280 but I can't remember...

How did you do that?

Short answer... the owner of ANOTHER gun shop in the area knew I was looking for one.. and he got one in for a steal, and gave me a call. Said he would give it to me for what he paid for it... if I sent customers that were looking for stuff I didn't have his way.:rolleyes:

I have known him for years... I've bought guns from him.. he's bought guns from me.:rolleyes: We use completely different suppliers... so a lot of times he can get stuff I can't and vice versa... we shoot together on occasion.. so we try and help each other out.

C0untZer0
September 21, 2011, 10:38 PM
^ Wow.

I wish I could go back in time.

I would have purchased 5 of the P7M8s and I would have purchased 3 of every other iteration - P7M13, P7M10, the long slides, nickel finishes etc...

On Glocktalk there are these Glock fanatics who collect Glocks like Pokemons, - gotta get em all - so they have one of each model and each generation, and the ported ones in all calibers, and the OD Green frames in all models...

That's how I feel about the P7 series.

HKFan9
September 21, 2011, 11:35 PM
The P7's are like Single Malt Scotch of the gun world... to me.

AustinTX
September 22, 2011, 12:20 AM
On Glocktalk there are these Glock fanatics who collect Glocks like Pokemons, - gotta get em all - so they have one of each model and each generation, and the ported ones in all calibers, and the OD Green frames in all models...

What a shame. Just think of all the money that could go toward buying interesting firearms.

The P7's are like Single Malt Scotch of the gun world... to me.

They're damn nice. I need to get my hands on the right P7M13 now. I was searching through the GB archived auctions a few weeks ago and saw that I missed a NIB P7M13 with no import stamp by just hours. :mad:

HKFan9
September 22, 2011, 01:14 AM
I wish I had the extra coin to drop on a P7K3.... I would shoot the snot out of one in .22lr lol

Dobe
September 22, 2011, 07:24 AM
even with its ridiculously subpar "match" trigger And yet my Elite has a wonderful trigger pull.

I really like the grip feel on most HK's, but the horribly rough, heavy DA pull always stops me from considering one] You need to qualify that by model. The P30s have a smooth SA and DA pull. The worst you can say about the P30 trigger is that it is long, with a long reset. The HK45 has somewhat creepy DA pull, but the SA is a good as I have found on any service handgun. I also have no problem with the USPs.

I would have purchased 5 of the P7M8s
I do have 4, and the last one I picked up is Chantilly era with no import marks - safe queen. I like the P7s, especially the M8s, but they get so hot.

PSP
September 22, 2011, 07:31 AM
And yet my Elite has a wonderful trigger pull.

The match trigger is an excellent trigger. I wish my other guns had as nice a trigger.

Dobe
September 22, 2011, 07:32 AM
Here's what you get when you purchase an HK.

No beta testing on the public
Little or no recalls.
Handguns that are reliable without unsupported chambers.
High degree of quality control.

With Sigs and Glocks, as good as they are and have been over the years, the rumors of quality control problems (Cohen's presence, G4 problems, etc) abound. HK has maintained a very high standard for QC in the past, and continue to do so now.

10mm4ever
September 22, 2011, 11:06 AM
I've owned several HK's and came to the conclusion that their best "work" occured prior to the polymer wave. The P7, P9 and even the VP70 were all unique and stood as prime examples of german ingenuity. The USP series(as stated earlier)was designed for the american market and what were left with is a plastic frame, tilting barrel and controls placed in the same place as the 1911, BHP, etc. That's a far cry from what they were once doing. Everything they're churning out now is overpriced, very uninspired from a design standpoint and no better or worse than many other plastic framed autos, crammed full of stamped metal. It's all about high profit margins and low quality, IMO. The construction of most of these things is more reminescent of a Bic lighter.

Dobe
September 22, 2011, 11:23 AM
:confused:

The HK45 did take polymers to a new level. This is a .45 cal handgun, which seems to recoil on the level of a 9mm, with ergonomics ahead of almost everything else produced.

The HK45 has the combined effect of a strong light weight polymer frame with a heavy slide. This is a combination, which gives the shooter a relatively light handgun with slide mass akin to an AK/FAL bolt. This is one of the reasons HKs are less likely to suffer from limp-wristing over some other handguns.

HK makes a pretty solid handgun.

AustinTX
September 22, 2011, 11:34 AM
And yet my Elite has a wonderful trigger pull.

To each his own. I've felt a number of Elite/Expert triggers, and mine is no different from the ones I've tried. For the price of the gun, I think it should be better. It's definitely far better than the stock HK polymer pistol triggers, though, which I think are one step shy of horrible.

Dobe
September 22, 2011, 11:38 AM
You are right, "to each his own". Out of my entire collection, only my Ed Brown Target has a better trigger. Only my Ed Brown Target will hold a group as well.

C0untZer0
September 22, 2011, 02:49 PM
If I didn't have the option of a shotgun for HD, my nightstand gun would be the Mark 23.

The .45 +P ammo from major ammo manufacturers is probably as good as it gets as far as ballistic performance and bullet effectiveness and the Mark 23 is the gun to tame those +P loads and make it manageable to fire them.

IMO there is no other 45 that has been as thouroughly tested as the Mark 23, maybe even the M9 wasn't tested as extensively, but certainly there isn't any other 45 pistol that is as proven succesful and reliable as the Mark 23.

A lot of engineering went into it and it's put together with quality components.

10mm4ever
September 22, 2011, 02:57 PM
This could go on forever. It's all about those who've paid the tariff and were impressed enough to stick with it, vs. those who've paid the tariff and eventually went onto greener pastures, for whatever reasons. All that's left from this point on is conjecture. Given the chance, it will become less civil.

BeachHead
September 22, 2011, 05:07 PM
IMO there is no other 45 that has been as thoroughly tested as the Mark 23

Now you've gone and done it. The 1911 cultists are gonna chime in soon. :)

reticle
September 22, 2011, 05:43 PM
....they have been for me.

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c367/azimyth/sights014.jpg