PDA

View Full Version : 1911 hype..


daliff89
September 14, 2011, 10:03 PM
i want to start this off by saying a few things...

i understand the 1911 is a proven design and i think they are beautiful pistols

i'm not trying to bash the 1911 in any way, i'm simply asking questions to help me better understand the platform

i'm in no way saying that the pistol is 'better' or 'worse' than any other design

but there's a few things i don't understand...

almost every time i see a thread made where someone is requesting advice on some type of gun to purchase or carry, i always see a 1911 mentioned

1) a person who is new to something, like cleaning a pistol, shouldn't buy something that's so complicated to field strip

is a 1911 REALLY hard to field strip? no... field strip a 1911 (taking the barrel out is about as far as i go on a regular basis) and it's in six pieces........that's only what, 1 more than a Ruger P Series? but the process requires you to push the guide rod in, turn a bushing, turn the bushing the other way......nothing too complicated, but all things for an inexperienced person to mess up, and something that's relatively time consuming.....

the first time i ever field stripped a Glock, i'd went through it maybe 5 times, and a we (the group of guys i was with at the time) decided to time each other to see who could field strip and reassemble the fastest......everyone did it in under a minute

i just field stripped and reassembled my Sig P6 (for the 6th time ever) in 22 seconds......

2) i see people saying that the 1911 really likes a certain kind of ammo and it won't perform right with another type

why would you want to go through a trial and error process with ammunition when you could buy a pistol that would function well with any kind of ammo you feed it?

is it really that big of a deal to buy 3 boxes of different ammo instead of 3 boxes of the same ammo? no...

but i can take any other model of firearm i've ever shot and shoot whatever ammo i can find through it just fine (except for steel cased stuff, my buddy's AR didn't like a box of Wolf he was feeding it)

3) in every CCW thread, at least one person recommends a 1911

do i think they're good enough for carry? yes...

but i was raised to double and triple check things

it's possible (though extremely improbable) that your manual safety on your 1911 will either fail or become deactivated, if that happens you're left with a very light and very short trigger pull.......if you don't exercise good trigger discipline while drawing (which everyone is susceptible to under a stressful situation) you can have a negligent discharge and hit something you don't want to

it seems to me that a segment of society that constantly plans for 'worst case scenario' situations like the firearm community so loves to do would think 'hey, my safety might break, maybe i need more than just one of them'

yes, there are grip safeties, but those would be useless in the example i gave since you're actually attempting to fire the weapon

why not get something that even if the safety fails, you're not totally in the dark?

a SA/DA pistol with one in the chamber and a safety/de-cock lever has the manual safety that the 1911 has, but if that safety fails for some reason, you still have a much longer and heavier trigger to help against negligent discharges

the same can be said for DAO and striker fired pistols

like i said at the beginning of this thread, i don't intend to bash the 1911 design at all, i just don't understand why someone would say that a platform that seems to have so many holes in it (to me at least) is hands down the best platform on earth

can anyone shed light on any of these issues i have with the platform?

Captain H
September 14, 2011, 10:35 PM
The design of the 1911 is old and many companies reproduce them. Some low end and some high end. You can not make a blanket statement that 1911s need certain ammo to work. A Colt and Springfield Armory will function with all types of ammo just like a Sig or Glock. With 1911s you really need to look at manufacturer when it comes to reviews not simply the design. Sometimes someone will be talking about an old model produced decades past by a good company like Colt that may not work with certain types of hollow point ammo, that is due to the pistol being manufactured before such ammo was made/sold and thus not modified for its use.

To compare a 1911A1 to Sigs, Glocks, Berettas, or HKs, you must compare it to an equivalent manufacturer of 1911s such as Colt of Springfield Armory (to only name a few) and then also make sure the 1911 is a newer version (1980s or newer) Older made 1911s are good, they are just designed to work with only ball ammo, because that is all that was available back then.

Your impression of the 1911A1 is marred by myth

Boats
September 14, 2011, 10:53 PM
1911 hype..

It's not hype when the platform can back it up. . . .

SNIP

but there's a few things i don't understand...

No doubt.

almost every time i see a thread made where someone is requesting advice on some type of gun to purchase or carry, i always see a 1911 mentioned

1) a person who is new to something, like cleaning a pistol, shouldn't buy something that's so complicated to field strip

is a 1911 REALLY hard to field strip? no... field strip a 1911 (taking the barrel out is about as far as i go on a regular basis) and it's in six pieces........that's only what, 1 more than a Ruger P Series? but the process requires you to push the guide rod in, turn a bushing, turn the bushing the other way......nothing too complicated, but all things for an inexperienced person to mess up, and something that's relatively time consuming.....

SNIPPED tale about Glocks and SIGs being field stripped.

A 1911 can come with or without a full length guide rod and with or without a barrel bushing. I have a 1911 without either. Retract the slide, pop out the slide stop pin, ease the slide forward, capture the recoil spring with the fingers and then disassemble the pieces. No harder than a CZ-75. The ones with a barrel bushing are only one step further. The key to an easy field strip on a 1911 is to avoid, or replace any FLGR with a GI guide rod. You then just have to learn how to capture your own recoil spring.

2) i see people saying that the 1911 really likes a certain kind of ammo and it won't perform right with another type

why would you want to go through a trial and error process with ammunition when you could buy a pistol that would function well with any kind of ammo you feed it?

is it really that big of a deal to buy 3 boxes of different ammo instead of 3 boxes of the same ammo? no...

but i can take any other model of firearm i've ever shot and shoot whatever ammo i can find through it just fine (except for steel cased stuff, my buddy's AR didn't like a box of Wolf he was feeding it)

You have fallen for a load of unadulterated BS. All mass market 1911s are throated to accept modern JHP ammunition. Many 1911s have the capability to feed even empty cases.

3) in every CCW thread, at least one person recommends a 1911

do i think they're good enough for carry? yes...

but i was raised to double and triple check things

it's possible (though extremely improbable) that your manual safety on your 1911 will either fail or become deactivated, if that happens you're left with a very light and very short trigger pull.......if you don't exercise good trigger discipline while drawing (which everyone is susceptible to under a stressful situation) you can have a negligent discharge and hit something you don't want to

it seems to me that a segment of society that constantly plans for 'worst case scenario' situations like the firearm community so loves to do would think 'hey, my safety might break, maybe i need more than just one of them'

yes, there are grip safeties, but those would be useless in the example i gave since you're actually attempting to fire the weapon

why not get something that even if the safety fails, you're not totally in the dark?

a SA/DA pistol with one in the chamber and a safety/de-cock lever has the manual safety that the 1911 has, but if that safety fails for some reason, you still have a much longer and heavier trigger to help against negligent discharges

the same can be said for DAO and striker fired pistols

By all means, if you can't physically or mentally handle the rapid presentation and firing of a single action combat pistol that has been at the tip of the spear longer than you've been alive, you might be best off going with a lowest common denominator alternative.

like i said at the beginning of this thread, i don't intend to bash the 1911 design at all, i just don't understand why someone would say that a platform that seems to have so many holes in it (to me at least) is hands down the best platform on earth

That's because the actual holes are in your knowledge and experience.

can anyone shed light on any of these issues i have with the platform?

Simply put, your "issues" can be chalked up to ignorance.

Carry_24/7
September 14, 2011, 10:58 PM
daliff89; it sounds like your mind is already made up, I see no need to try and influence you.

Enjoy your Glock.

Deja vu
September 14, 2011, 11:01 PM
1911s are good guns, glocks are good guns, revolvers are good guns. every one likes different things. People will recommend things they like.

pilpens
September 14, 2011, 11:01 PM
As we all know, "BEST" in handguns is subjective. 1911 design is a good design and it works for many people but it is not the best for everybody. Likewise, a Glock is a very good pistol but it is not the best for everybody.

Jason_G
September 14, 2011, 11:06 PM
Although his post may be a bit snippy :D, Boats speaks the truth. Sounds like a lot of your knowledge of the 1911 is second-hand, daliff. No offense, but you are flat out wrong on a lot of things, and Boats pretty much pointed out everything I was going to say.

Jason

Timbow
September 14, 2011, 11:25 PM
The 1911 platform has arguably the best trigger of any semi automatic pistol ever made. This, in combination with excellent ergonomics make the 1911 an inherently accurate pistol for most shooters. The Glock and most other striker fired pistols have mushy creepy triggers that take thousands of rounds to learn to control accurately. The 1911 may not be the best choice for everyone but there is no arguing it's design has been beyond proven and it will forever be a staple in handgun design.

KyJim
September 14, 2011, 11:34 PM
1) a person who is new to something, like cleaning a pistol, shouldn't buy something that's so complicated to field strip
Field stripping a 1911 is not difficult. I don't recall many threads claiming it is.

2) i see people saying that the 1911 really likes a certain kind of ammo and it won't perform right with another typeWith most 1911s this is not a concern. I will say that occasionally one runs into a 1911 that doesn't like a particular type of hollow point. It's not the only semi-auto pistol design that doesn't like every kind of ammo you throw in it. It is important in any semi-auto pistol to test the particular load you want to use for carry/defense.

3) in every CCW thread, at least one person recommends a 1911

do i think they're good enough for carry? yes...

but i was raised to double and triple check things

it's possible (though extremely improbable) that your manual safety on your 1911 will either fail or become deactivated, if that happens you're left with a very light and very short trigger pull.......if you don't exercise good trigger discipline while drawing (which everyone is susceptible to under a stressful situation) you can have a negligent discharge and hit something you don't want toSure, it can happen but it RARELY does. Check around and you'll find a lot more negligent discharges from Glocks due to the trigger with no external safety.

The 1911 is often recommended for concealed carry because -- wait for it --- it conceals very well due to it's then profile. I am one who does not believe a 1911 is for everybody, at least for carry by everybody. It has some idiosyncrasies but it also has a lot of positives.

Aguila Blanca
September 15, 2011, 12:14 AM
can anyone shed light on any of these issues i have with the platform?
Nope. Other than pointing out that, of all the 1911s I test every year, I encounter VERY few that won't process any ammo I throw at it, I can't argue with anything you say. You're just not a 1911 guy.

I am.

Mr. James
September 15, 2011, 12:21 AM
Game, Set, Match Boats.

Well said, sir.

The only reason I carry a different platform is the added capacity of the various Glockenspiels or other Teutonic products. Alternatively, there may be situations/settings, where I carry a J-frame revolver for discreet carry.

But when I stop kidding myself, I'm back to the 1911. My current is a Colt Commander, and I'm breaking in a Dan Wesson Razorback, which shoots quite accurately, but displayed some hiccups in its debut. We'll work on that, because it's a well made pistol.

Datguy781
September 15, 2011, 12:32 AM
I had a 1911 for a while. I honestly got one based on the "hype" and discovered its a great platform its just not meant for all of us. I shoot it accurately and had no issues with malfunctions it just didn't suit me.

K_Mac
September 15, 2011, 01:50 AM
I really like the 1911. Whether I am physically or mentally able to carry one cocked and locked is unimportant. I choose not to. The notion that SA/DA or DAO are "lowest common denominator" weapons is silly as far as I'm concerned. If there is any group of zealots more enthusiastic when it comes to pistols than Glock guys it would have to be 1911 disciples. I know some of you guys have been carrying 1911s since they hit the market... :D

daliff89, if you are looking to stir the pot you have picked the right topic. It sounds like your mind is made up. Carry what you're confident in, and comfortable with.

Double Impact
September 15, 2011, 06:05 AM
A question that always needs to be asked, (Why is it that in the majority of professional competition shooting, is performed with 1911's?):eek:


I know it isn't because they are undependable,Finicky,Unsafe or what ever!:D


BTW I carry a couple of different 1911's the one I have strapped this morning is a Springer TRP 1911. As of today I have 7,758 rds and it has been flawless and the only thing I have done is change the recoil and firing pin when needed.

And I have used just about any ammo you can think of, I shoot what ever I can get my hands on.

sailskidrive
September 15, 2011, 06:48 AM
>>is a 1911 REALLY hard to field strip?

I think they are a pain compared to most of my other pistols but not so overly complicated that it becomes a major issue.

What I like about the 1911 in general is its accuracy and the excellent single action trigger break. What I DONT LIKE about the 1911 is the outdated single magazine stack and narrow grip (by my standards).

Regarding the magazine stack, I'm a firm believer that 7 or 8 shots in a side arm should be plenty adequate to accomplish a defense engagement; if that doesn't do it there is a good chance some no matter what I did someone would be picking through my pockets.

Aguila Blanca
September 15, 2011, 07:11 AM
What I like about the 1911 in general is its accuracy and the excellent single action trigger break. What I DONT LIKE about the 1911 is the outdated single magazine stack and narrow grip (by my standards).
Para USA wants to talk to you.

As to the "narrow" grip -- most shooters, even those with large hands, seem to prefer the 1911 grip because it fits the human hand so well.

threegun
September 15, 2011, 07:14 AM
You have fallen for a load of unadulterated BS. All mass market 1911s are throated to accept modern JHP ammunition. Many 1911s have the capability to feed even empty cases. Yet thread after thread here and else ware asking the same questions the OP posted. By all means, if you can't physically or mentally handle the rapid presentation and firing of a single action combat pistol that has been at the tip of the spear longer than you've been alive, you might be best off going with a lowest common denominator alternative. How does one handle a broken safety lever, the OP's concern in the section you quoted? To suggest that someone isn't physically or mentally capable simply because they voice a concern is as ridiculous as your suggestion that those of us who choose an alternative are doing so because they can't handle a single action combat pistol. like i said at the beginning of this thread, i don't intend to bash the 1911 design at all, i just don't understand why someone would say that a platform that seems to have so many holes in it (to me at least) is hands down the best platform on earth Questioning of the 1911 as the king of the hill is simply not allowed. Your question in this quote is much more popular than you think however. It is the reason so many have left the 1911 platform for the "lowest common denominator alternative". When you get a good working 1911 it is hard to argue against it. Problem is finding a good working 1911 and keeping it working. Enough of us have tried and failed to keep many other gun platforms in business. My 5 plus attempts to find that reliable 1911 failed. Brands like Colt, Springfield, and Kimber. I gave up long ago. I simply embraced perfection now thanks to Gaston Glock. and I'm breaking in a Dan Wesson Razorback, which shoots quite accurately, but displayed some hiccups in its debut. We'll work on that, because it's a well made pistol. You mean it isn't reliable.

threegun
September 15, 2011, 07:27 AM
A question that always needs to be asked, (Why is it that in the majority of professional competition shooting, is performed with 1911's?) Because the 1911 has the finest trigger and overall a great platform for competition. I know it isn't because they are undependable,Finicky,Unsafe or what ever! Well in competition a failure to function only cost you points. Many many points and matches have been lost due to the 1911 malfunctioning. I have seen this with my own eyes. Thankfully its only points. This of course will be chalked up to tighter tolerances for the competition gun or whatever. Problem is when you ask gun instructors which platform fails the most during their course. Its the 1911. This of course is chalked up to bad magazines and such. There are valid reasons for your concern Daliff but you must learn to never...................NEVER, question the 1911. Only fools dare do so.

alloy
September 15, 2011, 07:41 AM
I think you find something you like for various reasons and that's the end of that. For some reason folks like them alot and think other people might as well. Something to be said for such a following, the 1911, like for instance....revolvers in general....have had plenty of time to prove themselves outdated or inadequate as many might repeatedly suggest....and yet they just won't go away.
There is something real going on there, no point in argueing that there isn't.

Skans
September 15, 2011, 07:45 AM
I really don't understand what question is being asked?

You acknowledge that the 1911 is a proven design. It is. And, so are many other designs. I think that the love for the 1911 has more to do with the fact that it is a uniquely American firearm. Glocks, Sigs, Beretta's, HK's, Stars, Walthers, CZ's and even Hi-Powers (even though designed by an American) are not American guns. All of these makers manufacture some very fine and reliable handguns. Some have triggers as good as any 1911.

I'd take a bet that you won't find too many people who are all that interested in buying Chinese made 1911's. Wonder why?

Boats
September 15, 2011, 07:48 AM
Yet thread after thread here and else ware asking the same questions the OP posted.

Link them then. I believe we'd see the same misinformation regurgitated time and again.

How does one handle a broken safety lever, the OP's concern in the section you quoted? To suggest that someone isn't physically or mentally capable simply because they voice a concern is as ridiculous as your suggestion that those of us who choose an alternative are doing so because they can't handle a single action combat pistol.

Show me a credible instance of this happening on a decent (+$800) 1911. Such an occurrence is tantamount to asking how one would stay in the fight after their Glock kabooms. It was trollish then, akin to saying "What if you get hit by lightning when you pull the trigger?" and remains so now.

My 5 plus attempts to find that reliable 1911 failed. Brands like Colt, Springfield, and Kimber. I gave up long ago. I simply embraced perfection now thanks to Gaston Glock.

Congratulations on sinking to the level of your incompetence and embracing it with such gusto that you troll a 1911 thread about it. You shouldn't be so butt hurt about your failure to rise above wielding a misshaped hunk of plastic known to blow up, suffer Phase 3 malfunctions, and which in its current 9mm form is unreliable, subject to a untruthful recall, and made with MIM extractors which either don't work outright or throw brass into the shooter's face.

You and the cheaped out Glock were made for one another.

Shane Tuttle
September 15, 2011, 07:58 AM
Just about to call it the night, when, lo and behold, what do I see?

Oh, yes. Another chapter closing on the drama infested finger pointing mouth foaming idiotic lowbrow temper tantrums that disgrace this board. :mad:

CLOSED

Shane Tuttle
September 15, 2011, 08:30 AM
And one other thing...

daliff, if you're seeking answers in earnest, I present to you a member here that speaks more articulate than I can. He also has quite an objective viewpoint when it comes to firearms in general. I would certainly take heed when he provides an opinion. Quoted ver batim via PM, here's his take:

The 1911 did not make its reputation for reliability by being a substandard design. Properly executed, it is fully as reliable as anything offered today.

With the exception of throating, the Ordnance Department spec'ed USGI 1911A1 had that reliability built in. Throating only matters if you're shooting something besides hardball- and essentially all current-production 1911's leave the factory throated.

The Glock is a marvelously-reliable pistol, produced by a company who values their reputation for reliability. If the basic Model 22 was made by everybody and his drunk uncle, using out-of-spec 'low bidder' parts, that reputation would soon go in the toilet. That's where the 1911 is today.

If you understand the design and the rationale behind it, you are willing to educate yourself a little and you are not mechanically inept, it's a relatively-simple matter to take today's 1911 reliable. The better examples, such as Colt's, are usually ready to go right out of the box.

That's the current situation with the 1911. People who cannot accept it are invariably better of with something else.