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Big Tom
September 10, 2011, 09:28 AM
Hi guys, I had been in the market for a small pocket pistol for a while due to my work I cant carry much more than that. I put a Kel Tec P32 on layaway and am expecting to pick it up in 2 or 3 weeks. My concern was weather to use HP's or FMJ's and here's why. I work at a local grocery store which is anti weapons and all that good stuff, but its a store which means plenty of people will be inside. I am worried that the FMJ's may over expand and I dont want someone else getting hurt. I purchased an extra mag, 2 pinky extensions, and 150 rounds of ammo. 2 boxes are the Fiocchi FMJ's and the other box is HP's. I am thinking of getting another mag and carry 2 with HP's and one with FMJ's. What are your opinions on the matter? Will a .32 over penetrate in FMJ? IF not I may just carry ball ammo.

Furminator
September 10, 2011, 09:35 AM
I don't think you have to worry too much about over-penetration with the .32 ACP. I suppose it is possible, depending on how the bullet hits the person. You could always do what I would which is load a Cor-bon hollowpoint in the chamber and the top of the magazine, then the rest of the magazine would be FMJ. Check out GoldenLoki.com, it has ballistic gelatin tests of pretty much all the .32 ACP rounds (using a Kel Tec .32). The Cor-bon seemed to be the best of all the .32 HPs. Hope this helps!

Big Tom
September 10, 2011, 09:59 AM
yeah I did and the Fioochi was the most well balanced which is why I chose them.

dpetreikis
September 10, 2011, 10:09 AM
I have a P32 and I keep mine loaded with the Fiocchis, too. With a relatively low-powered round such as the .32, I'm more concerned with achieving adequate penetration and less with over penetration.

Big Tom
September 10, 2011, 11:33 AM
like I said, I just dont want the round going through and hurting someone else. I'm really strict on that.

michael t
September 10, 2011, 11:51 AM
Load Corbon in chamber and top round in mag Rest ball. This gives you 2 HP then Ball. My self all 3 of my P-32's are all loaded with Corbon HP . (mags are set up for HP)
Loki says Corbon JHP is 1008 FPS that is approx 670MPH I ain't worried about penetration of clothing or body .

Big Tom
September 10, 2011, 11:54 AM
wouldnt this cause rim lock?

dlb435
September 10, 2011, 12:28 PM
32 acp does not have enough power to get good expansion with hollow point ammo. Round nose ammo is just as effective hollow points. Use anything you want. I'd look for rounds that feed well in your pistol. Better to be more reliable than have rounds that come in a fancy box.
A lot of folks give the 32 acp a bad rap for it's low power but a well placed shot is deadly. It's been a favorite round for European police for almost a century.

Furminator
September 10, 2011, 12:35 PM
If you're concerned with a large crowd of innocent people around the individual that you are shooting at, though, I could see why you might be leery of FMJs. It almost makes HPs sound like a better option, even though it is the .32 ACP. Usually penetration is better, but you sure don't want to hit a baby in a stroller, either! Geez, if it was any other round than the .32, I might almost be recommending frangible ammo! This is a tough one.

Bill DeShivs
September 10, 2011, 01:03 PM
Use a quality hollow point. Silvertips are the standard. The .32 acp has adequate penetration. Make sure your gun is reliable with whichever ammunition you choose.

Big Tom
September 10, 2011, 10:05 PM
yeah, our store has been robbed before. I think 3 or 4 times in 3 years that I have worked their. We have a bank inside the store so that doesnt help either. The reason I chose the fiocchi's was because the did get more than enough penetration in ballistics gel. Expansion is minimal but my figuring is that it will hit like a hot FMJ without the risk of coming out the other side and still have a small bit of expansion. Look at this chart here: http://www.goldenloki.com/ammo/gel/32acp/gel32acp.htm

C Philip
September 10, 2011, 10:08 PM
I also use the Fiocchi FMJ in my p32. Another plus of doing so it that your carry ammo and practice ammo are the same, and Fiocchi 32 is the least expensive by me.

svaz
September 10, 2011, 10:21 PM
If over penetration is that big a concern consider MagSafes. This will only do you any good during summer when the bg is wearing lighter cloths (vitals are really not that deep, ya know?). You'll want to use ball during winter for punching through thick, layered, clothes.

Big Tom
September 10, 2011, 10:29 PM
I am also in the Market for an affordable heavier gun. I was looking for something with a little heft while still being thin....like a Polish P64 or Bersa Thunder 380 or something....maybe a Kel Tec P-11....not sure yet.

Cheapshooter
September 10, 2011, 10:40 PM
I am also in the Market for an affordable heavier gun. I was looking for something with a little heft while still being thin....like a Polish P64 or Bersa Thunder 380 or something....maybe a Kel Tec P-11....not sure yet.

If you are considering a 9X18 as in the P-64, you might also take a look at the CZ82. Chambered for 9X18 Makarov, Double Stack 12 rnd mag, C&R eligible, and reasonably priced. Great guns for the money.

checkmyswag
September 10, 2011, 10:44 PM
Smith and Wesson Bodyguard 380 and Ruger LCP are both VERY small and pocketable.

ligonierbill
September 11, 2011, 04:12 AM
My vote is for Buffalo Bore 75 grain flat point hard cast. They claim (chrono from the P32) 1,000 fps. Not bad for a "mouse" and I find them easier to control than the CorBon in my P32. Don't worry about over penetration from a .32 ACP.

Big Tom
September 11, 2011, 09:10 PM
thanks for the input guys. I am keeping mental notes on all this. Thanks.

oneounceload
September 11, 2011, 09:23 PM
I work at a local grocery store which is anti weapons and all that good stuff,

So you will then be opening the store and yourself to huge potential lawsuits............and violating their policy, correct?

If there are that many people around, firing a gun is the LAST thing you need to be doing, especially with some little pocket pistol designed for 5-10 feet in the accuracy department.

Lost goods or money is easily replaced by insurance, lost/disabled lives of customers are not

Big Tom
September 11, 2011, 09:29 PM
yes I am well aware of that. But if robbers start shooting at people or at me then I will do my best to neutralize the threat. Sorry I'd rather have a gun than nothing at all. My uncles boss used to open up his store....he never carried a gun in their.....he and 3 college girls were slaughtered by men with knives even though they had the money already. Sorry if I dont wanna go down like that.

oneounceload
September 11, 2011, 09:50 PM
People here love to play the What if? games, citing maybe one instance in the entire country about a particular scenario - something that has less odds than winning a lotto or getting hit by lightning. Sometimes they get a little over paranoid.

I am not going to advocate breaking the law or rules where you live, you realize that if found they have the right to immediate termination. If your job has a history of such violence, then find another job. The grocery stores around here just give them the money because they want the thieves out of there quickly so no one gets hurt. People wit small pocket pistols rarely practice enough to become seriously proficient with them; and 32 is not cheap ammo

You really are looking at a very ugly legal situation

Big Tom
September 11, 2011, 10:57 PM
Options are limited, I never said that I would just deploy the gun. Your assuming that. Furthermore yes most of us would hand over the money, including myself. And FYI its not just the grocery store that gets robbed here, its the drug store, 4 banks, liquor store that get robbed right along with us. Not everybody has the luxury of finding another job, especially not where I live. Jobs are VERY scarce as is. I walk 2 miles to work and 2 miles home and that is the main reason I carry. A little pocket pistol CAN get the job done and if you know where to look .32 can be had for $14 a box. .32's are great for those who cant get a lot of range time as they still pack a bit of punch with low recoil. Also a .0000000000000000001% chance of something happening is already too much of a chance. Always be prepared, always be alert, the best offense is a good defense. That has always been my philosophy!

James K
September 11, 2011, 11:58 PM
Let me see. We have a case of an aggressive man who is determined to shoot it out with a robber, in a crowded store, and who believes he is so good with a little pocket pistol that his only concern is overpenetration, not missing entirely. Not to mention that once a robber sees the gun, he will start firing with unpredictable results.

You won't like this advice, Big Tom, but leave the gun at home, or at least determine to draw only if absolutely necessary to save your life or the life of another innocent person.

The money is not yours; if the store says let the robber take it, do exactly that. If the company learns about the gun, you will lose your job. If you do decide to play Wyatt Earp and end up shooting an innocent person, I can just about guarantee you will not only lose your job, you WILL be sued for everything you have or will ever earn, AND probably wind up in prison, no matter what happens to the robber.

And PLEASE, spare me the "tried by twelve" bulls**t.

Jim

American Eagle
September 12, 2011, 01:59 AM
Take it easy mall ninja, and leave the gun slinging at home. Most encounters will not require shooting or drawing your gun. Sometimes it's better to walk away politely or find another way out of the situation if possible, and only pull out your gun when there is just no other way and your life is genuinely in danger.

Furminator
September 12, 2011, 07:08 AM
Some of you guys are pretty rude. This guy has made it quite clear that he would only use the gun as a last resort and he has every right in the world to protect himself. Any time you have to defend yourself, there is always a good chance there are going to be innocent people around. Does that mean it should never be an option? He's an adult, he can make his own decisions and take his own consequences. Answer his question, and leave your mean-spirited comments at home.

Big Tom
September 12, 2011, 07:37 AM
Thank you Furminator. Apparently trolling is implemented not just on youtube or online games but now on forums too. I bet they didnt even read all the comments. Apparently they are happy with a gun in their face and being defenseless to protect themselves and would rather take the chance of the robber not shooting them. I on the other hand like options. I am not depending on a thug to let me live. So far the good input has allowed me to see that Fiocchi is the best route in any case. Maybe I will carry FMJ's in one mag and HP's in another and also HP's in my main mag.

TylerD45ACP
September 12, 2011, 08:40 AM
Id put one quailty .32 JHP in the pipe and the rest would be FMJ for my carry mag, in fact thats what I do in my Seecamp. I rather have the round penetrate where it needs to get then have it expand too much and underpenetrate. The 1st round is a JHP and that may work as a combo, if it is a hit, but I feel more comfortable with FMJ for the the .32, imo. I also agree with the post talking about the hardcast bullets.

Daekar
September 12, 2011, 08:55 AM
You guys need to lay off. He's obviously not an idiot, and he's considered things carefully.

We all know that just because something is the law or the rules, it doesn't make it right. Sometimes it's worth breaking the rules to save a life, and as long as you're careful, no one will know and therefore no one will be hurt by the broken rule. Let the man make his own damn decisions, he knows what's on the line. Between my life and my job, I'd choose my life too, especially if I worked in a high-risk area like that. Wake up to reality, folks, we live in a world where they make it hard to exist without breaking laws/rules, and it will only get worse. You'd better start getting used to it now.

To the OP, I apologize for the people who think the lawyers should run the show and don't recognize danger when it robs the bank next door. As long as you continue your mature decision to use the gun as a last resort and not as a robbery-preventative, I'm with you 100%. Regarding bullet choice, I would carry flat-nosed FMJ if you can find it, and regular FMJ if you can't. As noted by other posters, 32ACP is not going to have trouble with over-penetration the majority of the time, but underpenetration, especially with a HP bullet.

mavracer
September 12, 2011, 11:20 AM
OP I agree that it's better to have options. I use the Fiocchi 60gr SJHP in the brown box, be sure they are not the blue box they are loaded with Hornady XTPs here in the states and are not near as hot.
I would however agree that I'd be more worried about a miss than overpenatration.

Onward Allusion
September 12, 2011, 11:43 AM
Big Tom
? on the .32 acp

I would stay with FMJ. Bullets out of a P32 aren't all that quick to begin with. You want to go with penetration. Also, the 32ACP is a semi rimless cartridge. With the shorter HP rounds you could experience rimlock, where the rim catches the rim of the cartridge below it in the magazine. Yes, I have had this happen, although thank gawd at the range! I load a Buffalo Bore in the pipe and Fiocchi FMJ in the mag.

BTW, those who hammered you are way out of line. It's your choice... Also, are they going to tell your family how sorry they are that you're dead because you followed the store policies?

Good luck

KBM1
September 13, 2011, 03:04 PM
I use Fiocchi in my .32 ACP Walther PPK and it's worked very well.

cwok
September 13, 2011, 03:52 PM
quote
yeah, our store has been robbed before. I think 3 or 4 times in 3 years that I have worked their.
Unquote

This probably will sound like Snark - but I don't know your circumstances and all I am going on is what you posted.

Consider some or all of the following - in no particular order, in additon to any weapon/ammo you are considering.


Attend Gun Site or a similar school for small arms training.
Body armor
New Job
Trauma Kit and attempt to get EMT training.
Identify any local qualified attorny's who address armed Self-Defence in advance.
,

AZAK
September 13, 2011, 04:29 PM
An FBI report worth reading:
HANDGUN WOUNDING FACTORS AND EFFECTIVENESS
http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

Which includes this regarding your original question:

"An issue that must be addressed is the fear of over penetration widely expressed on the part of law
enforcement. The concern that a bullet would pass through the body of a subject and injure an innocent
bystander is clearly exaggerated. Any review of law enforcement shootings will reveal that the great
majority of shots fired by officers do not hit any subjects at all. It should be obvious that the relatively
few shots that do hit a subject are not somehow more dangerous to bystanders than the shots that miss the
subject entirely."

It also includes this gem (which has been so misquoted):

"It is essential to bear in mind that the single most critical factor remains penetration. While
penetration up to 18 inches is preferable, a handgun bullet MUST reliably penetrate 12 inches of soft
body tissue at a minimum, regardless of whether it expands or not. If the bullet does not reliably penetrate
to these depths, it is not an effective bullet for law enforcement use."

Worth reading in it's entirety.

Bill DeShivs
September 13, 2011, 06:43 PM
"it is not an effective bullet for LAW ENFORCEMENT use." (emphasis mine.)
Just think how much safer the streets would be if everybody had a .32 in their pocket. Or a .25, or a .22.

zucchi
September 14, 2011, 12:09 AM
Better yet, if Glaser makes ammo in this caliber, use it.

To comment on extra mags, unless you're making an action movie, you'll likely never need more than the mag that's already in your gun. Those rare shoot-outs on the news where police are changing mags are just that -- rare. If you ever encounter an assailant, the moment he encounters you, a citizen that can defend himself with a gun, that coward will run rather than stay and fight. Besides, in today's litigious society, there will be questions about why you had extra ammo, "were you expecting trouble?" Unless you live in a Castle-Doctrine state, that's something to keep in mind.

But, for added peace of mind, feel free to keep it on you.

popplecop
September 14, 2011, 06:32 PM
The only 2 reasons I have at least 1 extra mag is when I practice with it I done have to reload the same mag and can continue. This way with my LCP or my late wifes Beretta Tom Cat I get fire 12 rounds, I know then I have 2 mags to load. The other reason is if I have one that acts up I have a spare when on the range. As far as ammo goes I have both my 380 and 32 loaded with Hornady's Critical Defense loads.

engineer88
September 15, 2011, 07:16 AM
It was nice to see some people come to your defense and be so reasonable on this thread. Not trusting one another to make good decisions and be good fellow human beings is the death knell for any society. It is sadly becoming more common in this country. It breaks my heart.

As for the P32 it is my every day pocket gun. I like Fiocci as well and the price is hard to beat. Good luck with everything and as with anything that maintains or greatly improves the quality of your life, read up as much as you can on the subject. Also, the suggestion to get EMT training is a good one. I wish everyone had it (myself included). You may save a work mate or friends or family members life. Good luck!

carguychris
September 15, 2011, 08:42 AM
Better yet, if Glaser makes ammo in this caliber, use it.
IMHO frangible ammo is marginally effective in all but the most potent handgun cartridges; why render it even LESS effective by using it in such a low-powered cartridge? :rolleyes:
To comment on extra mags, unless you're making an action movie, you'll likely never need more than the mag that's already in your gun... If you ever encounter an assailant, the moment he encounters you, a citizen that can defend himself with a gun, that coward will run rather than stay and fight. Besides, in today's litigious society, there will be questions about why you had extra ammo, "were you expecting trouble?" Unless you live in a Castle-Doctrine state, that's something to keep in mind.

Details of the weapon used- including the quantity of ammo carried- seldom come into question in a clear-cut case of legal self-defense. Most of the courtroom horror stories originate from incidents where the shooter (and/or his legal counsel) made serious mistakes, calling the legality of the shooting into question. Run a search for "Harold Fish" and "Frank Magliato" to read some threads where this is discussed at length.
It is NEVER safe to assume that an assaillant will retreat when he/she sees that the potential victim is armed. One of the most basic (and often ignored) rules of armed conflict is that one should never assume that the enemy will act rationally; a closely related corollary is that one should never assume that the enemy will react the same way one's self would react in a similar situation. If you read some stories on this forum from people who have actually drawn a weapon in a real-world SD scenario, some of the assailants reacted by heckling the potential shooter and/or intensifying the attack.
In most cases, "Castle Doctrine" laws are meaningless outside of one's home or property. In the few states where they apply in the workplace, they generally only protect the business owner and those legally authorized to act on behalf of the owner. They don't usually protect employees, particularly those carrying in violation of company policy. Apples to oranges.

TylerD45ACP
September 16, 2011, 12:05 AM
Always I repeat ALWAYS carry at least 1 extra magazine, I advocate more :). The magazine is the weakest link of the semiauto. What if your mag has a problem in the gun and wont feed. What if the mags fine but a double feed occurs and its really jammed up. You want an extra mag not only for ammo but to clear jams/malfuctions quickly. An extra mag can make those problems go away quickly and save your life.

sgms
September 16, 2011, 04:53 PM
When I was still carrying my Kel-Tec 32 I loaded it with Glasers. Kept to low penetration round because it was carried in summer while in minimal casual attire where size was what decided what could be carried. But I have mostly replaced the 32 with a Kel-Tec P-11. With a good pocket holster it rides very nicely in my front pocket even with the extended grip (can get my whole hand on it) I also carry the 12 round mags usually 2 spares and have put the trigger shoe on it (sand the top of it round stops the pinch) I also keep the mag. in pistol loaded with Glasers to minimize penetration but the other mags. are a mix one regular HP's other FMJ. I also agree with you as to when and as to why to use a gun, when faced with someone not satisfied with just getting the money but wants to kill someone it is time to be, as I was once told by a gentleman I greatly respect, the most expensive piece of meat they ever tried to get.

oneounceload
September 16, 2011, 07:54 PM
Thank you Furminator. Apparently trolling is implemented not just on youtube or online games but now on forums too.

Give the drama queen BS a rest, OK?

You came here and got replies you didn't like, even if they are the SMART thing to do....boo-hoo, get over that.

What you want to do is violate your company policy, imagine some video game scenario, and then try to play the hero where everything comes out perfect - that is not real life - and that is what folks here are trying to tell you.

Do what you want, hope you never have an issue

Big Tom
September 16, 2011, 09:53 PM
You came here and got replies you didn't like, even if they are the SMART thing to do....boo-hoo, get over that.

What you want to do is violate your company policy, imagine some video game scenario, and then try to play the hero where everything comes out perfect - that is not real life - and that is what folks here are trying to tell you.

Whats smart about not being armed? If you wanna take the chance thats on you but I highly doubt that you would leave your gun in the car and pray for luck. Clearly you did not read the posts and thats fine you are ASSuming I want to play hero because I want to be able to defend myself if someone tries to kill me. When push comes to shove and you are in that predicament lets see where your gun is. I bet 10-1 it is drawn.:rolleyes:

orionengnr
September 16, 2011, 10:56 PM
If you get the chance, shoot a P32 and a P3AT (or LCP) back-to-back. If you are a fan of Newton, you will be able to make a distinction pretty quickly.

If you are a thinking man, and as big as your screen name suggests, you will move up a notch to 9mm ...at least.

I am an getting to be old man, not a big boy, but I figured out long ago that I can carry a competent caliber...and although I own an LCP and a Kahr PM9, and trust both to function correctly, I don't carry either one except on "special occasions"..call it two-three days per year.

Daekar
September 16, 2011, 10:59 PM
Just take the naysayers with a grain of salt. Fortunately for them, they seem to have lived sheltered lives in which the full extent of their vulnerability to violence hasn't been made clear to them. Some others among us are aware that violent encounters happen any time anywhere, and any time we choose to carry a weapon to counter the danger of that potential violence, we have to assess the risk associated with the act of carrying as well. In general, the more dangerous the environment is, the more of a no-brainer this is. In your case, you have to weigh the potential consequences of carrying with not carrying. If some armchair commando thinks he knows more about the situation you're planning for than you do, he's mistaken... obviously. If I lived and worked in an area as dangerous as where you are, I would carry deeply concealed and company policy be damned. The likelihood of being caught without actively deploying the weapon is practically zero most places, and you're better off fired than dead. As I said before, it's going to get harder and harder to live without breaking rules and laws... some people need to accept that and learn how to choose their actions based around potential violations of rules/laws when necessary.

Catfishman
September 16, 2011, 11:20 PM
Let me see. We have a case of an aggressive man who is determined to shoot it out with a robber, in a crowded store, and who believes he is so good with a little pocket pistol that his only concern is overpenetration, not missing entirely. Not to mention that once a robber sees the gun, he will start firing with unpredictable results.

You won't like this advice, Big Tom, but leave the gun at home, or at least determine to draw only if absolutely necessary to save your life or the life of another innocent person.

The money is not yours; if the store says let the robber take it, do exactly that. If the company learns about the gun, you will lose your job. If you do decide to play Wyatt Earp and end up shooting an innocent person, I can just about guarantee you will not only lose your job, you WILL be sued for everything you have or will ever earn, AND probably wind up in prison, no matter what happens to the robber.

And PLEASE, spare me the "tried by twelve" bulls**t.

Jim
__________________


It appears that James K needs to sharpen his reading comprehension skills. Or, maybe it doesn't matter what the OP says when there is an opportunity to look down you nose at someone and preach.

It seems to me that the OP is far more in need of a CCW than most.

Shane Tuttle
September 17, 2011, 08:27 AM
Everyone will cease to further comment on the subject of whether the OP is right or wrong in possessing a firearm...NO MATTER THE LOCATION.

Catch my drift? If not, you will the hard way...

Mike Irwin
September 17, 2011, 10:36 AM
Actually, Shane, I'll go one better and, reading through this again, I'll say that everyone is to cease and desist commenting on this thread completely before things get out of control and people start to regret some of the things that they've written.

And to help everyone....

Closed.