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View Full Version : Please clarify these ammo queries. 9mm variants


Pond, James Pond
September 10, 2011, 05:15 AM
OK, so I don't speak the local lingo that well so it can get confusing.

The guy in a local hunting store was very helful, but what he explained and what I couldn't has left me confused.

I learnt to shoot on a Makarov. As far as I know, they are all chambered in 9mm Mak or 9mm x 18mm. That is what the internet says, that is what the pack of Barnaul that I loaded from at the range said.

The gun shop owner, however, maintained that the Mak shoots 9.2 x 17mm. I knew that the 9mm was in fact 9.2, but is it 17mm long or 18mm long?

By comparison he said that the Astra Constable in the shop, chambered in .380ACP was more powerful than the Mak. I thought it the other way round.

I had understood that .380 ACP, or 9mm short was 9mm x 17mm.

So what the heck is what? :confused:

Don357
September 10, 2011, 11:31 AM
It's like this.

9x17= 9mm Kurtz= .380acp= .380 auto= .355in dia
9x18= 9mm Makarov= .364in dia
9x19= 9mm Luger, 9mm Parabellum, 9mm NATO= .355in dia
9x21= 9mm Largo= .355in dia
.38 super= .355in or .356in dia
9x23= .355in dia (basically a .38 super magnum)
9x29= 9mm WinMag= .355in dia (designed for semi auto pistol from AMT, and LAR)
.357 Sig= .355 (.40S&W case necked down to accept a 9mm/.355in bullet)

I hope this helps.

C0untZer0
September 10, 2011, 11:56 AM
I just had a weird desire to buy that Taurus .380 ACP revolver.

It just sort of comes over me at times...

Pond, James Pond
September 10, 2011, 12:18 PM
Thanks for that ammo breakdown. So does this make sense to anyone? The gun shop owner, who would seem to know his stuff says that the Makarov pistol he has in his shop fires 9.2 x 17mm rounds and, as such, the Astra Constable he also has, firing .380ACP, is more powerful.

When I said that I thought 9x17 was the same as .380 and that the Mak fired 9x18 and it was the more powerful, he said "no".

One of us has it wrong:
my range training experience with the Mak and the internet say I'm right, but then he is a gunshop owner and I am a noob, with a capital "nu".

Who's got their wires crossed?

@Countzero
Follow your dream!!

TheNev
September 10, 2011, 12:25 PM
Technically speaking your "typical" 9mm rounds (.355) are 9.017mm and the 9mm mak cartridge (.364) is 9.245mm. The .380acp uses a 17mm case the 9mm mak uses an 18mm case and the common "9mm" uses a 19mm case.

Hope that clears up a little confusion.

Don357
September 10, 2011, 12:26 PM
OH BY THE WAY!!!!!
Do not confuse the .380-200 and the .380 Webley with the .380acp as these are revolver rounds and are actually closer to the .38S&W:eek:

Don357
September 10, 2011, 12:31 PM
Not only is there a difference in length between the .380acp/9x17 and the 9mm Luger/9x19, the 9x17 uses a straight walled case whereas the 9x19 uses a tapered case.

Discern
September 10, 2011, 12:38 PM
The 9x18 is the 9mm Makarov. The Soviet Union had a military handgun cartridge developed so their handgun ammo could not be fired by the military handgun of another country. This is why the bullet diameter of the 9x18 is larger than other popular 9mm handgun cartridges. If they had to, they might be able to use the 9x17 ammo in their 9x18 Makarovs; but this is not recommended.

Pond, James Pond
September 10, 2011, 01:14 PM
Right, so the gun shop owner was wrong. :eek:

The Makarov pistol he has is chambered in 9 (9.245mm) x 18mm, and not 9 x 17mm. The Astra Constable is still .380 ACP aka 9 x 17 or 9mm short.

And so, of the two, the Mak has a bit more punch...

Buzzcook
September 10, 2011, 01:32 PM
When it comes to firearms and ammo, you should expect people to be wrong.

Most if not all will do so with the best intentions and complete belief in their opinion. But there is so much to know about guns and ammo that the facts can get mixed up in your head.

I know this from personal experience. In a rifle thread I Blithely mixed up the Winchester 1876 and 1886 and the .45-75 with the .45-70. When I realized what I was doing I was very embarrassed.

With other subjects a senor moment is just a funny gaff, with guns it can have dangerous consequences. So trust but verify.

lee n. field
September 10, 2011, 03:44 PM
The gun shop owner, however, maintained that the Mak shoots 9.2 x 17mm. I knew that the 9mm was in fact 9.2, but is it 17mm long or 18mm long?


For "9mm Makarov" he's got the diameter right, the length wrong.

By comparison he said that the Astra Constable in the shop, chambered in .380ACP was more powerful than the Mak. I thought it the other way round.


He's got that wrong too.

Right, so the gun shop owner was wrong.

Humor him. "Yes sir, than you for clarifying that." Keep your local gun-monger happy.

Then buy what you want.

I just had a weird desire to buy that Taurus .380 ACP revolver.

It just sort of comes over me at times...

Call one of us when this happens. We'll talk you out of this insanity. We're here to help.

Pond, James Pond
September 10, 2011, 03:58 PM
@ Lee n Field

:D

All good news! Good news coz I'm not losing my mind, and good news because the little Mak is still a contender.

Being fair to the shop owner: he's a really friendly fellow and he has several very affordable options to consider, even if they are not the all-sing, all-dancing guns I'd buy, if I had the cash...

Discern
September 10, 2011, 04:34 PM
Don't forget to look at ammo availability and ammo cost for a particular cartridge. If you are planning on shooting at any local ranges, I suggest checking their rules for cartridges and bullets allowed. Example - not all ranges allow jacketed bullets while other others may require specific clean range ammo.

Sevens
September 10, 2011, 04:53 PM
9x29= 9mm WinMag= .355in dia (designed for semi auto pistol from AMT, Coonan, and LAR)
The AMT I know... the LAR Grizzly also.

Connan chambered a 9mm Win Mag?
Is this a mistake or did I miss this?

Geezerbiker
September 10, 2011, 05:22 PM
Just to make it more confusing, some commercial Maks were made in .380 ACP...

Tony

lee n. field
September 10, 2011, 05:32 PM
Just to make it more confusing, some commercial Maks were made in .380 ACP...


Yup. Russian Baikal, and Bulgarian Arsenal, both made .380 Makarovs. IIRC, the Arsenal .380 could not be rebarreled to 9x18, because the little cup in the breechface that the cartridge fits into is sized for .380.

8shot357
September 10, 2011, 06:32 PM
just had a weird desire to buy that Taurus .380 ACP revolver.

It just sort of comes over me at times...

what?

Don357
September 10, 2011, 11:43 PM
"The AMT I know... the LAR Grizzly also.

Connan chambered a 9mm Win Mag?
Is this a mistake or did I miss this? " quote from 'Stevens'


OOPS! I made a Boo Boo:eek:. I stand corrected. Thank you!

Pond, James Pond
September 11, 2011, 03:22 AM
@ Geezerbiker

Well, that throws a spanner in the works. The gun shop owner was adamant that it was not the same calibre as the Astra, but I must say the cartridges looked very similar.

For what it's worth, the pistol look identical to the one I trained with at the range and the one I was tested on at the police range as part of my permit eligibility exam.

For better or worse, I have to wait a while before I get my actual permit. Time to figure it out, or time to find something less ambiguous.

Geezerbiker
September 11, 2011, 03:30 AM
I found out about the .380 acp Mak when buying a gun for my daughter. When I went to order it, I was offered the choice. I went with the .380 thinking ammo would be easier to find.

I have to admit it was an interesting Christmas that year at my sister's home when my daughter opened that gift... :D

Tony

varoadking
September 11, 2011, 09:12 AM
9x17= 9mm Kurtz= .380acp= .380 auto= .355in dia

Kurz...

Kurtz was Marlon Brando's character...

tubbyfirefighter
September 11, 2011, 09:59 AM
I thought that 9mm largo was 9x23 not 9x21??

kealil
September 11, 2011, 12:01 PM
Also please note that when buying 9mm ammo to watch the follower label. If it's labeled NATO, be cautious because these are sometimes hotter rounds made for military grade handguns and such. I can't swear it's true 100% of he time but my friend lost a Springfield to these rounds.

I'd say just be careful

Sevens
September 11, 2011, 12:38 PM
What kind of a Springfield did he lose to those rounds?
While not meant for continual use of them, and decent modern handgun is proofed with ammo WAY over spec, and hotter than NATO spec 9mm.

Webleymkv
September 11, 2011, 02:00 PM
Your Makarov is most likely chambered in 9x18 Makarov. The only Makarov pistols ever chambered in .380 were Russian guns made specifically for export to the U.S. (their importation was banned in the 1990's through a trade agreement under then-President Bill Clinton). These gun are usually easily distinguished because they have a glossier blue finish, adjustable sights, and the caliber marked prominently on the slide. Your initial thought that 9x18 is more powerful than .380 is correct. 9x18 is in between .380 and 9x19 Luger/Parabellum/NATO in power although it is closer to the former than the latter. Also, .380 Auto may also be called 9mm Short, 9mm Kurz, 9mm Corto, or 9x17 Browning depending on the ammo's country of origin.

I thought that 9mm largo was 9x23 not 9x21??

It is. 9x21 is a completely different cartridge quite similar to 9x19 in both ballistics and overall length. 9x21 was developed so that a gun chambered for 9x19 could be easily converted with a simple barrel swap. This is desirable in countries which prohibit civilian ownership of guns in "military calibers" such as 9x19. 9x21 is quite popular in Europe, but rarely encountered in the U.S.

MLeake
September 11, 2011, 02:19 PM
Unless the Springfield succumbed to one of the NATO SMG only 9mm loads, such as broke some Berettas way back when, leading to lots of hand-wringing over Berettas - as opposed to hand-wringing over improper selection of ammo.