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View Full Version : another genius blows his glock up with reloads--pics


Don Glock
September 6, 2011, 08:10 PM
posting this for folks new to guns:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_5_13/113768_My_own_Kaboom__Pic_heavy.html

TXAZ
September 6, 2011, 08:17 PM
Wow, that's an eye opener (or luckily this one was only a finger opener :)

I wonder how often that happens...

Jason_G
September 6, 2011, 08:35 PM
I don't understand why?

IMHO, there is an unwritten 5th rule of firearm safety:

DON'T SHOOT ANYONE ELSE'S RELOADS!!!

It's one thing to shoot remanufactured ammo from a reputable supplier like Georgia Arms, or Black Hills or something. But Bubba's Range Reloads? Bad juju.

Jason

AK103K
September 6, 2011, 09:14 PM
I wonder how often that happens...
I suppose it depends on how you reload. I shoot on average 3-500 rounds of mine a week, every week, and all my Glocks are intact. So are the SIG's, HK's, Colts.......

DON'T SHOOT ANYONE ELSE'S RELOADS!!!
That about sums it up.

dunerjeff
September 6, 2011, 09:22 PM
There was something fishy going on with the that.The op only started the thred and then dissapeared for the last month????

NJgunowner
September 6, 2011, 10:05 PM
Probably pending litigation and was told to not to discuss.

myshoulderissore
September 6, 2011, 10:20 PM
Quite possibly lawyered up (as he very much should) and was told to shutup till it was resolved. I hope he cleans them out, I hate companies that try to weasel out of crap, when I am looking for only a simple resolution.

BarryLee
September 6, 2011, 10:54 PM
Well, at least he had a nice tactical flashlight so he could find all the pieces.

Webleymkv
September 6, 2011, 11:20 PM
Looks like the unfortunate fellow experienced the "perfect storm" of bad combinations: sloppy reloads + .40 S&W + Glock chamber. While any one of these factors, by themselves, may not (or in the case of the caliber and gun probably would not) have caused a KB, put them together and this is what you get.

Glock chambers are well known for not being fully supported. While this normally isn't an issue so long as the ammo is in spec, with an overpressure round the unsupported portion of the chamber allows the gas, and therefore the pressure, to escape into weaker parts of the gun.

The .40 S&W cartridge is also quite sensitive to OAL. According to my Lee Reloading Manual, .40 S&W has less useful case capacity (0.69cc) than 9mm (0.74cc), .357 Sig (0.89cc), 10mm Auto (0.95cc) or .45 ACP (1.14cc). This means that a bullet seated X amount below minimum OAL in .40 S&W is going to reduce the case capacity, and therefore increase the pressure, to a greater degree than the same amount below minimum OAL in any of the afforementioned cartridges.

The last, and probably biggest, factor is the sloppy reloads. While an overcharge of powder is possible, my guess is that the OAL of the reloads probably wasn't right. Also, if the reloads did not have a good crimp, its also possible that the cartridges might have suffered from bullet setback, though this is unlikely unless the rounds were chambered numerous times before firing.

The moral of the story seems to be don't shoot anyone else's reloads and be careful assembling your own, especially if you're shooting a Glock and/or .40 S&W.

HKFan9
September 7, 2011, 12:37 AM
+10 to Webley

jimbob86
September 7, 2011, 01:40 AM
perfect storm

The .40 already operates at very high pressures in a relatively small case. Things like bullet set-back (further reducing the capacity of the case), using lead bullets in the Glock's octagonal rifled barrel (leading can make the bullet harder to push down the tube, spiking pressure), repeatedly reloading "Glocked" cases (cases fired in an unsupported chamber, getting resized, Glocked again, eventually work hardening the case and making it brittle near the web) ...... can make for a Kaboom. Do two or more of these things is ....unwise.

I don't know that many Glock shooters personally ...... maybe 6 or 8 ...... 2 of them have blown up .40 S&W chambered Glocks. One was shooting lead bullets though a stock barrel, at ludicrous velocities for lead bullets ..... the other surmises that his gun fired out of battery somehow.

Were I to buy a Glock, it would not be a .40, and I'd buy an aftermarket barrel ...... to many things can go wrong on the edge of Splodeyville..... you can so easily slip and find yourself there.....

Rugerismisticness
September 7, 2011, 04:17 AM
.40 is one of those calibers not worth reloading after running through glock chambers.

Opinated
September 7, 2011, 06:24 AM
I never have done any reloading. If one has a sensitive scale, is it possible to detect an overcharge of propellant by weighing the completed rounds? Or do the casing and bullet weights vary enough to negate that being effective?

excelerater
September 7, 2011, 06:26 AM
my glock see's 100% reloads..........Mine.....

AK103K
September 7, 2011, 07:30 AM
If one has a sensitive scale, is it possible to detect an overcharge of propellant by weighing the completed rounds? Or do the casing and bullet weights vary enough to negate that being effective?
If youre consistent in what you do and use, you might could.

If youre loading towards the max end of the data, and the planets all fell in line, the difference may not be enough to save you though.

If you use an appropriate powder and load, one that nearly fills the case, its pretty much a non issue, as a double charge will overfill the case.


Reloading generally isnt an issue if youre the least bit attentive and prudent in what you do. Some people like to think they know better and more than the big ammo/powder companies R&D departments, and go places they shouldnt.


One thing I do find interesting with Glocks is, you never seem to hear of guns chambered in 357SIG having this problem. Same basic case and pressures, but I cant remember ever hearing of one coming apart.

Another thing, is this chamber issue a generation specific thing with the .40's? My brother has an early model 23 that has had many, many thousands of lead reloads through it, and never a hint of a problem, or bulges in the cases. Ive seen other guns over the years leaving brass with pretty scary looking bulges, and some more recently, with none at all.

Skans
September 7, 2011, 07:33 AM
Glock designed his gun to shoot 9mm. It's a good gun for that. Stick with Glock 17's and 19's. All else is just an attempt to stretch a good design to its limits. When that happens, things can go wrong - in my humble opinion.

drail
September 7, 2011, 07:40 AM
High pressure cartridges and minimal case support and poorly manufactured ammunition that sets back will cause this to happen. Maybe not the first time, but eventually the laws of physics will triumph.

1911Tuner
September 7, 2011, 08:06 AM
The head support issue in Glock chambers is pretty well-known, and has been involved in several catastrophic failures...but I don't think it contributed to this one. Those usually blow down into the magazine well. This gun blew out the chamber, which is strong indication of a double charge. Not even a squib with a lodged bullet will cause this type of failure.

So, yep. Careless reloader+double charge=Grenade Glock. He's very lucky.

TheNocturnus
September 7, 2011, 10:36 AM
Sheesh, that would suck if it happeed to my Glock 22. I only use factory ammo in my Glock though. I am kind of worried now about some reloaded wadcutters I got for my .38 special revolver at my LGS. The company on the box is: RAM Precision Ammunition, you guys ever heard of them? Should I shoot this or just trash it?

jimbob86
September 7, 2011, 12:10 PM
If you use an appropriate powder and load, one that nearly fills the case, its pretty much a non issue, as a double charge will overfill the case.



You'd be surprised how much some of the powders will compress...... just curious: how much Unique (or other flake powder) can you accidentally pack into a .40 case?

Will Beararms
September 7, 2011, 12:15 PM
Didn't Glock address the .40 S&W chamber support issue years ago? Also didn't the aMMO industry beef up .40 caliber casings in critical areas years ago to address the chamber problem as well?

The only weapon I ever wrecked of my own volition came from using others reloads and it was a revolver. I don't reload so I do not shoot reloads.

I would be quite confident with a .40 Glock of modern vintage with factory rounds.

AK103K
September 7, 2011, 01:11 PM
You'd be surprised how much some of the powders will compress...... just curious: how much Unique (or other flake powder) can you accidentally pack into a .40 case?
You can "pack" a good bit into a lot of them, but accidentally no, thats not an accident, its deliberate.

One reason for using a powder that nearly fills the case, is its a safety measure, and an indication you did something wrong if its at, or spilling over the top of the case.

Crosshair
September 7, 2011, 01:28 PM
Didn't Glock address the .40 S&W chamber support issue years ago?
Depends on the year and model. It's a crapshoot. Lots of unsupported barrels still circulating.

Here are some comparison pics.

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x187/SargeMO/CaseSupport2-1.jpg

http://i51.tinypic.com/beyhyu.jpg

Then there is the issue of the supposed lack of heat treatment of the factory barrels other than the anti-corrosion Tenifer.

jimbob86
September 7, 2011, 01:34 PM
One reason for using a powder that nearly fills the case, is its a safety measure, and an indication you did something wrong if its at, or spilling over the top of the case.


Aye, and I have argued for that before.... and folks persist in telling the interwebz that it is a fine idea to load everything form .380 to .45LC with Unique......

.... if your bench is mess, and you are quickly cranking out hundreds of rounds on progressive set-up, will you notice that bit of spilled powder? ..... maybe the powder "bridged", and one case gets a 1/2 charge, and the next gets a 1 1/2 charge ....... possible? Not likely .... but possible. If you are not eyeballing (or mechanically checking every charge), and you are using a caliber with such high pressures and low capacity like .40 S&W ..... apparently, it IS possible, as SOMETHING is sending these .40 cal Glocks to Splodeyville. ...... 90% of the blown up guns I have seen on the internetz (and 100% of the blown up handguns I have seen in person) have been Glocks chambered in .40 S&W ......

Will Beararms
September 7, 2011, 02:08 PM
Great reply Crosshair----thanks for taking the time to do that.

Cheapshooter
September 7, 2011, 02:09 PM
.40 is one of those calibers not worth reloading after running through glock chambers.

10MM to?

and what about 40 in a Springer XD?

Just wondering before I buy the dies!

Crosshair
September 7, 2011, 03:51 PM
Great reply Crosshair----thanks for taking the time to do that.
No problem. I'm just good with GIS.:p

Sharpsdressed Man
September 7, 2011, 05:08 PM
How will a jury respond when the defense attorney asks why the plaintiff was using reloads in a gun that the manufacturer specifically warns people NOT to use reloads in? It would seem to me that that would make a jury sympathetic to rejecting an award against the defendant when the plaintiff ignored this warning.

Skans
September 7, 2011, 05:21 PM
Crosshair, that was definitely an interesting comparison - first time I've seen something like that. Thanks.

Shadi Khalil
September 7, 2011, 06:02 PM
Glock designed his gun to shoot 9mm. It's a good gun for that. Stick with Glock 17's and 19's. All else is just an attempt to stretch a good design to its limits. When that happens, things can go wrong - in my humble opinion.

I think the 26 is as solid as they get. To tell you the truth, I've recently been flirting with the idea of getting a 33 or 29...

Sent via Android

Yung.gunr
September 7, 2011, 08:02 PM
So the part that is unsupported is right under the casings right? Where there is more of the casing showing? So the chamber is not fully surrounding the casing. Please let me know if I am understanding that correctly.

Tom Servo
September 7, 2011, 08:17 PM
How will a jury respond when the defense attorney asks why the plaintiff was using reloads in a gun that the manufacturer specifically warns people NOT to use reloads in?
If this guy brings litigation, he's going to have an uphill battle. He might be asked to prove that the loads he shot came from the company in question. That's easy if I'm shooting new, factory ammunition--I can point out their headstamp.

On the other hand, these are reloads. The company could easily cast doubt on the claim that their loads were responsible. Then they can bring up the fact that many manufacturers recommend against the practice of using reloads.

[from the linked thread] And yes it was not a squib. Have had many and i did not have the clear the empty casing or had the tell tell muffled sound.
I'm having real trouble with the guy's grammar, but he's had "many" squibs? That would suggest a problem with the gun, or a long-running problem with the ammo he's using.

Don Glock
September 7, 2011, 08:31 PM
and what about 40 in a Springer XD?


xd's and xdm's have tighter chamber dimensions and better case support than glocks. that's one of the reasons they don't enjoy the same rep for reliability.

you can have a "match grade" chamber in a polymer combat pistol, or you can have reliability with any ammo. take your pick.

Timbow
September 7, 2011, 10:53 PM
xd's and xdm's have tighter chamber dimensions and better case support than glocks. that's one of the reasons they don't enjoy the same rep for reliability.

you can have a "match grade" chamber in a polymer combat pistol, or you can have reliability with any ammo. take your pick.

I shoot (G22) all my reloads (several thousand) through a Lone Wolf aftermarket barrel with match grade chamber. I shoot factory practice and duty ammo (a couple thousand) through the factory barrel. I have had significantly better reliability with the aftermarket "match" barrel and chamber than I have with the factory barrel so go figure.

Webleymkv
September 8, 2011, 12:13 AM
The .40 already operates at very high pressures in a relatively small case.

Actually, the maximum pressure of the .40 S&W isn't all that high when compared to its contemporaries. SAAMI max pressure for .40 S&W is 35,000psi which, consequently is the same as standard pressure 9mm, .357 Magnum, and .41 Magnum. .40 S&W actually operates at lower pressure than .44 Magnum (36,000) .38 Super (36,500), 10mm Auto (37,500), 9mm +P (38,500), and .357 Sig (40,000). The only common service-type cartridges that operate at lower pressure than .40 S&W are .38 Special (17,000 standard pressure and 18,500 +P) and .45 ACP (21,000 standard pressure and 23,000 +P)

The issue is really more one of case capacity. A .400 bullet which is set back into the case 0.01 inches will reduce the case capacity by approximately 0.02cc. in a .40 S&W case, this would be a reduction of approximately 3% of its useful case capacity. By comparison, the same 0.01" bullet set back in a 10mm case would reduce useful case capacity by 2%, a 9mm by 0.3%, a .357 Sig by 0.2%, and a .45 ACP by 2%. I won't even go into revolver cartridges because, due to their typically voluminous case as compared to semi-auto cartridges, a bullet setback of 0.01" would represent a ridiculously low percentage of their useful case capacity.

I also note that there have been some fairly well publicized KB's with Glocks in .45 GAP. I cannot help but wonder if this cartridge suffers from the same OAL sensitivity as the .40 S&W does since it was developed much the same way.

Shane Tuttle
September 8, 2011, 06:36 AM
xd's and xdm's have tighter chamber dimensions and better case support than glocks. that's one of the reasons they don't enjoy the same rep for reliability.

you can have a "match grade" chamber in a polymer combat pistol, or you can have reliability with any ammo. take your pick.

I've had my cake and ate it, too as well as otheres. The number of XDs out in circulation with the number of rounds fired out of all of them mitigates claims of yours. On top of that, several aftermarket barrels for Glocks seem to be manufactured with more precise tolerances than the stock barrel. Haven't seen people complaining of less reliability with their Wolff barrels or the like...

1911Tuner
September 8, 2011, 07:05 AM
Again...it's very unlikely that simple bullet setback caused this particular failure.
The guns are proof tested at 25% above SAAMI standard. It's hard to imagine that .010-.015 inch of setback would cause pressure to exceed that to a signifigant degree. A double charge...maybe also with some setback...would have blown the chamber.

Webleymkv
September 8, 2011, 10:35 PM
Again...it's very unlikely that simple bullet setback caused this particular failure.
The guns are proof tested at 25% above SAAMI standard. It's hard to imagine that .010-.015 inch of setback would cause pressure to exceed that to a signifigant degree. A double charge...maybe also with some setback...would have blown the chamber.

No, it probably wasn't setback, but more likely improper seating depth to begin with. My calculations based on 0.01" setback were more for illustrative purposes. I suspect that the reloads in question were significantly more than 0.01" under minimum OAL.

Don Glock
September 8, 2011, 10:41 PM
The number of XDs out in circulation with the number of rounds fired out of all of them mitigates claims of yours.

glocks are the most widely used military/LE pistols in the world. xd's are not even close. these facts would support my previous claim. glocks are also the most widely used by private security contractors in iraq/afghan who can carry whatever they want much of the time (i know several). how many folks have you seen using xd's in afghan where you're at compared to the number of glocks you've seen?

my claim was that they don't share the same reliability with any type of ammo as glocks do, not that they're by and large unreliable. my xd was unreliable, but that was my personal experience.

On top of that, several aftermarket barrels for Glocks seem to be manufactured with more precise tolerances than the stock barrel.

more precise how? you mean tighter chamber dimensions, or tighter slide fit? neither are desirable upgrades on a combat pistol.


Haven't seen people complaining of less reliability with their Wolff barrels or the like.

really? :eek:

jimbob86
September 8, 2011, 11:01 PM
I suspect that the reloads in question were significantly more than 0.01" under minimum OAL.


And if it started out too short and suffered a bit of set-back ...... and what powdr was used? Tite-wad?

Any # of things could contribute, cumulatively, to a spike in pressure: smokeless powder burns progressively hotter the more pressure it's under..... I still say that reloading for .40 S&W in a Glock is bad ju-ju, and Glock concurs...... you send your .40 cal Glock to Splodeyville with reloads, don't put on the shocked face and say it was not your fault: it's not like it happened out of the blue ....... do a search for "Glock Kaboom" and you'll have hundreds of hits, mostly referring to Golcks of the .40 cal stripe.

FAK
September 9, 2011, 12:37 AM
glocks are the most widely used military/LE pistols in the world. xd's are not even close... glocks are also the most widely used by private security contractors in iraq/afghan...

I can confirm that this is true from my experience. I've also never seen (or heard of, for that matter) a service issued Glock .40 S&W, firing factory loads, that has experienced a kB.

Tom Servo
September 9, 2011, 12:46 AM
I've also never seen (or heard of, for that matter) a service issued Glock .40 S&W, firing factory loads, that has experienced a kB.
Actually, I've seen several. One happened in the lane next to me while I was shooting. It was American Eagle ammo. Same general idea, minor cuts and bruises.

Another involved 165gr Federal loads, though the bullets may have been set back by repeated chambering. You can get bullet setback, and I don't recommend ejecting and rechambering the same round.

FAK
September 9, 2011, 01:04 AM
I'm no expert by any means. However, and not to disparage civilian shooters, but the reason I specified "service" issued Glocks is because that is what I have experience with. Plus, although there are idiots everywhere, most military personnel are less likely to do things like say, re-chamber a round multiple times.

Were these properly maintained service issued Glocks?

Webleymkv
September 9, 2011, 09:17 AM
Quote:
I've also never seen (or heard of, for that matter) a service issued Glock .40 S&W, firing factory loads, that has experienced a kB.

Actually, I've seen several. One happened in the lane next to me while I was shooting. It was American Eagle ammo. Same general idea, minor cuts and bruises.

Another involved 165gr Federal loads, though the bullets may have been set back by repeated chambering. You can get bullet setback, and I don't recommend ejecting and rechambering the same round.


While I've never personally witnessed a Glock KB, I have seen bullet setback that likely would have caused one if the round in question had been fired. An acquaintence of mine had been using Federal Hydra-Shoks (I don't know what weight) as carry ammo in his G23 and had rechambered the same cartridge multiple times. After a while, he noticed that the bullet had been obviously set back into the case and showed me the cartridge in question asking my advise. I told him not to shoot that cartridge under any circumstances and to switch out his carry ammo. Fortunately, he followed my advice and switched to Speer Gold Dots.

IIRC, Federal .40 S&W ammo had issues with bullet setback at one time and this caused many of the .40+Glock=KB accounts. I don't know if Federal ever remedied the issue because I've never been that interested in either .40 S&W or Glock handguns.

Another factor which may predispose .40's to KB's more than other calibers is that I suspect the ammo makers are loading it much closer to maximum pressure than most other cartridges. 9mm, .38 Special, and .45 ACP are all over 100 years old and the "big name" ammo makers like Winchester, Remington, Federal, Hornady, and Speer are well-known for downloading older cartridges out of fear that their ammo will wind up in old guns that really shouldn't be shot anymore at all. While 10mm isn't nearly as old, it is still downloaded to "FBI Lite" by most ammo makers. .40 S&W, on the other hand, is only a couple decades old and, as such, the ammo makers probably are not as worried about it winding up in an unsafe gun.

This means that the same amount of bullet setback in another older cartridge may not be enough to cause a catastrophic failure as the cartridge was downloaded to begin with. A .40, on the other hand, which is not downloaded is probably more likely to KB when you have the combination of the loading, small case capacity, and bullet setback.

Tom Servo
September 9, 2011, 11:01 AM
Plus, although there are idiots everywhere, most military personnel are less likely to do things like say, re-chamber a round multiple times.
Actually, I've known several folks in law enforcement who make it a habit of clearing the weapon when they get home from work. The next day, they load it back up. They end up recycling the same two rounds numerous times. They're not idiots; they just didn't know any better.

Crosshair
September 9, 2011, 12:30 PM
Plus, although there are idiots everywhere, most military personnel are less likely to do things like say, re-chamber a round multiple times.
That has a lot to do with not being issued any ammunition except actual combat zones. You can't re-chamber what you don't have.

the duck of death
September 9, 2011, 04:28 PM
I have a 2002 G23 that would badly bulge the case at the 6 o'clock position--after 2 shots it got a KKM barrel.

Also have a 2010 G27 w/loose chamber and much better support at the 6 o'clock position no case bulge but the entire case is slightly expanded--it also has a KKM barrel.

Both are reliable and accurate using the KKM.

FAK
September 9, 2011, 05:14 PM
Actually, I've known several folks in law enforcement who make it a habit of clearing the weapon when they get home from work. The next day, they load it back up. They end up recycling the same two rounds numerous times. They're not idiots; they just didn't know any better.

I've found that there is often a wide difference in gun handling skills between LEO's and military personnel. And I never said recycling rounds made anyone an idiot, everyone does it at some point. Again my experiences probably differ from the average as I've never bought ammo before in my life and tend to toss any chambered rounds if/when I clear my weapons. Of course if I paid for it myself...

That has a lot to do with not being issued any ammunition except actual combat zones. You can't re-chamber what you don't have.

That's true. Unless you're deployed. I know I had a gun on my hip nearly every moment I was awake, and yes, it was loaded.

Don Glock
September 9, 2011, 05:17 PM
Actually, I've known several folks in law enforcement who make it a habit of clearing the weapon when they get home from work. The next day, they load it back up. They end up recycling the same two rounds numerous times. They're not idiots; they just didn't know any better.

yeah, most LE aren't shooters and don't know any better. personally, i'd make it a priority to master the tool that may one day save my bacon if were them. i'm just funny that way.

HisSoldier
September 9, 2011, 09:16 PM
The guns are proof tested at 25% above SAAMI standard.

That's the lowest figure I've ever seen for proof testing.

1911Tuner
September 10, 2011, 04:48 AM
I have a 2002 G23 that would badly bulge the case at the 6 o'clock position

That's typical of the lack of adequate case head support. Most kabooms that result from it blow everything down into the magwell. They don't take out the whole chamber unless there's a structural flaw in the barrel, and even with that...it's not so dramatic as the one pictured. This was a double charge.

(25%)That's the lowest figure I've ever seen for proof testing.

I meant that as a minimum. It depends a lot on the caliber/gun combination.
Could you imagine proofing a .357 Charter Arms revolver or a .40 High Point at +50%?

Silent Bob
September 10, 2011, 07:51 AM
I'm sorry the guy blew up his gun and hurt his hand, but he had to know the risks of shooting reloads in a .40-caliber Glock. Glocks at one time and may still do come with a big sticker in their case that states NOT to shoot reloads. When it comes to the .40-caliber Glocks, they really aren't joking about this. He tried to save a few bucks shooting remanufactured rounds in his .40 caliber Glock, which is fine and good, but you are playing the odds when you practice this and they caught up to this guy. In my opinion the gun range that sold him the reloads doesn't owe him a new gun or even a used one. This guy took his chances, lost, and now feels he should get something free to make up for him not using some common sense. This is an example of exactly what is wrong with this country at the moment.

carsinc
September 10, 2011, 08:42 AM
This is what happens when there is a joining of multiple DAs.

DA #1 - The range owner who sweeps up brass, reloads it and sells it to the public.

DA #2 - The range reloader (often the lowest paid employee) who simply sits at the press and knocks out thousands of rounds without any QC.

DA #3 - The member of the public who buys the reloads.

There multiple opportunties to prevent this kind of accident.

A 4th DA would have been the person who accepted reloads of unknown quality from a buddy.

Know your ammo. Know your reloader. Remember, its your pistol and those are your fingers, not his.

BTW, I know one professional reloader, with a national reputation for match grade bullets, who will not knowingly sell his reloads to a Glock owner; will not reload for Glocks; and will not use brass he knows has been used in a Glock.

jimbob86
September 11, 2011, 09:14 PM
Know your ammo. Know your reloader. Remember, its your pistol and those are your fingers, not his.



This. ^^^^

kgpcr
September 11, 2011, 10:06 PM
Why is it that its always Glock's going KB??

Don Glock
September 11, 2011, 10:22 PM
it's not. you just hear more about glocks because they are in widespread use. 65% of american LE uses them, and most are 40cal.

jimbob86
September 11, 2011, 10:23 PM
Why is it that its always Glock's going KB??

"Generous" unsupported chambers (for reliability!), combined with folks that are too cheap to buy a steel gun (when they can get a well used plastic LEO trade in for $400!!!)........ these folks by nature (being cheap) look for the most inexpensive reloads ..... range pickup brass, lead bullets, tiny charges of very fast powder (did you know Tite-group will charge twice as many cases as Accurate #7 for the same price!!!!!!) .... combine that with the rechambering (can't throw away or recycle that bullet- it's only set back just a little!) issue and the fact that the .40 S&W doesn't leave whole lot of margin for error .......


maybe .....folks that spend $1,000+ on their guns are not so cavalier about their reloading practices ...... but I'm real careful with the rvolver I got for $350 ...... so that's not it ........

Crosshair
September 11, 2011, 10:48 PM
Why is it that its always Glock's going KB??
Poorly supported case head in many samples.

Design which is prone to firing out of battery enough to cause kB!'s. (I check this all the time when shopping used handguns.) I also sometimes find among the range brass that I pickup a BADLY bulged case with a glock firing pin strike on the primer WAY off center.

(supposedly) lack of a properly heat treated barrel since Glock's, from what I find, test 32C for hardness vs 40-42C for aftermarket barrels. Cheap for a reason.

Factory rifling prone to leading and raising pressures with cast reloads.

Sheer number of Glock's that have been sold.

Combine a design with issues with a company that doesn't issue recalls (only "upgrades") with a large number sold with lots of people using reloads in a design with poor case support and you have lots of blown up guns.

Don Glock
September 11, 2011, 11:08 PM
Poorly supported case head in many samples.

less case support equals reliability, and is not prob with quality factory ammo. not so great with bubba loads.


Design which is prone to firing out of battery enough to cause kB!'s. (I check this all the time when shopping used handguns.) I also sometimes find among the range brass that I pickup a BADLY bulged case with a glock firing pin strike on the primer WAY off center.

off center primer strikes in glocks, and many others, are from the the slide retracting after the the round is fired but before the striker is fully receded back into the breechface. a smeared off center looking primer strike results.


(supposedly) lack of a properly heat treated barrel since Glock's, from what I find, test 32C for hardness vs 40-42C for aftermarket barrels. Cheap for a reason.

nonsense.


Factory rifling prone to leading and raising pressures with cast reloads.

that would be why glock advises against lead bullets.


:cool:

Crosshair
September 12, 2011, 07:38 AM
Poorly supported case head in many samples.

less case support equals reliability, and is not prob with quality factory ammo. not so great with bubba loads.

If your gun needs such a sloppy chamber then the gun needs to be redesigned. A gun that is so vulnerable to a defective case, like the early Federal loads, is NOT "more reliable".

Design which is prone to firing out of battery enough to cause kB!'s. (I check this all the time when shopping used handguns.) I also sometimes find among the range brass that I pickup a BADLY bulged case with a glock firing pin strike on the primer WAY off center.

off center primer strikes in glocks, and many others, are from the the slide retracting after the the round is fired but before the striker is fully receded back into the breechface. a smeared off center looking primer strike results.

You MIGHT have a point if that was what I was seeing. What I see are cases that look like the one on the left.

http://65.172.200.34/ruger/r2.jpg

Clearly, the gun is firing out of battery.

(supposedly) lack of a properly heat treated barrel since Glock's, from what I find, test 32C for hardness vs 40-42C for aftermarket barrels. Cheap for a reason.

nonsense.

Which is why aftermarket barrel manufacturers advertise their barrels as being fully heat treated and the only barrel treatment that Glock advertises is the anti-corrosion Tenifer treatment. According to American Handgunner, the hardness of Glock barrels tests around 32C.

Factory rifling prone to leading and raising pressures with cast reloads.

that would be why glock advises against lead bullets.
EVERYONE advises against reloads. It's CYA stuff. Glock is the only one that regularly blows up when even quality reloads are used.

1911Tuner
September 12, 2011, 10:58 AM
Clearly, the gun is firing out of battery

Not necessarily. I've seen the bulge that bad in 1911s that had Bubbafied chamber ramps and excessive headspace. The combination of the two is most often the cause of bulged and blown case heads.

Kyce
September 12, 2011, 11:35 AM
The range uses spent casings off the floor, reloads them, and resells them? How do they know how many times the brass has been reloaded? Do they measure the brass at the head and the mouth to see how much it has thinned from repeated reloadings? Do they check the length of every case? Bet they don't since that would cut into any profit to be made. That place is lucky it was only someones hand that got banged up and not death or crippling injury. If he doesn't sue them into the ground I hope they at least stop this insanely dangerous practice.

I pick up all of my brass from reloads at the range, especially if the brass is spent and should not be reloaded again. I refuse to put anyone else in danger with my spent brass.

Everyone who said only use your own reloads has it right. Be safe.

AK103K
September 12, 2011, 12:14 PM
The range uses spent casings off the floor, reloads them, and resells them? How do they know how many times the brass has been reloaded? Do they measure the brass at the head and the mouth to see how much it has thinned from repeated reloadings? Do they check the length of every case?
Most handgun brass can be shot to failure with little fear of anything but a split case mouth.

Ive been shooting the same lot of 2000 rounds or so of 9mm brass, at the rate of 3-500 rounds a week now for three or four years. Im just now starting to get the occasional mouth split. Other than that, never had a failure of any sort.

I did the same for years with .45acp, and and for about 5 years with 357SIG. Even then, with the bottleneck cases, I never noticed the cases OAL changing like it does on rifle brass, and never had to trim any. Only had a few splits I can remember too.

I always scrounged handgun brass from the ranges I used to frequent, and never had a problem. Hey, free brass is free brass, and I scrounged a lot. Still do when I find it, but I dont get out to those type ranges with that kind of traffic these days.

Rifle brass is another issue though, and something I wont scrounge. But thats a whole other thing.

TeamSinglestack
September 12, 2011, 12:58 PM
I also sometimes find among the range brass that I pickup a BADLY bulged case with a glock firing pin strike on the primer...

While anecdotal at best, the overwhelming majority of "funky" bulged brass I pick up at any given public range invariably has a distinctive rectangular calling card left on the primer, and is in the .40 cal flavor.

Whether the result of poor re-loading practices, case set back issues, or the gun itself, I do not know, but the .40 seems to have "issues" more frequently than other calibers when ran through the glock platform.

Regardless, be safe with WHATEVER you shoot.

Kyce
September 12, 2011, 01:11 PM
Interesting info AK103K. I have only been reloading handgun brass for about a year so forgive any ignorance here. But even with something like .40 auto or .45 auto that headspaces on the mouth instead of shoulders are you still not trusting that the brass you are reloading has seated properly in the chamber? I would imagine that even with handgun brass, and especially with handgun brass fired from someone elses firearm, there is risk of improper headspacing leading to possible thinning and then head seperation. Maybe as you suggest it may not be as high of a risk as with higher pressures or brass that headspaces on the shoulders or rim. Do you not measure handgun brass when reloading? Perhaps I would be willing to trust my own but I do not think I could ever trust someone else's. I have yet to trim any of my handgun reloads but I have read that is not unusual though you should still measure it.

That photo of the brass head just looks like a classic head seperation to me.

AK103K
September 12, 2011, 01:33 PM
I rarely measure pistol brass for length, mine or otherwise. When I did measure them, they were usually always within the min/max length, andeven after repeated loadings, never seemed to "grow".

When I started loading 357SIG, I was a little paranoid since it was a bottleneck case, but even there, after initially checking the cases after every firing, I didnt see them growing like the rifle cases do, and in fact, none I checked, ever were longer than max length.

If youre paranoid about the headspacing, you can by the drop in gauges and check your work, but Ill bet you find that if you have your dies set up right, they all pass.


That case in the pic above looks like a blow out, more than a case head separation. Case head separations are usually just a "crack" around the case just above the base, and in extreme cases, a total separation. You dont normally see a "hole" like in the pic above.

Kyce
September 12, 2011, 01:44 PM
I do have dies for my 9mm and .45 auto. Maybe I need to lighten up where my reloads for handguns are concerned. I still even clean the primer pockets out of routine.

I need to do some research to understand why they don't thin so much as I would expect. Must be pressure and length. Live and learn.

Thanks.

AK103K
September 12, 2011, 02:40 PM
Sounds like youre doing just fine. I wouldnt lighten up until you feel the time is right, and youll know when that is. Its always better to err on the safe side until youre comfortable with what youre doing.

Some things soften with experience, not that Im saying ever to loose that fear. Thats what tends to keep you on the right side of things. Im still "skeerd" all the time, and more anal than you might think. :)

jimbob86
September 12, 2011, 03:05 PM
less case support equals reliability, and is not prob with quality factory ammo. not so great with bubba loads.



Soooooooo ...... You either buy a cheap plastic gun that works only with expensive disposable ammo ...... OR ...... you buy an expensive gun that works even with cheap recyclable ammo? That about sum it up?

I'm thinkin' you are money ahead with the spendy gun (even if it costs 2-3x what the Glock did) in the long run ....... provided you ......you know ...... actually shoot your gun regularly ...... just sayin' ........

Crosshair
September 12, 2011, 04:18 PM
Soooooooo ...... You either buy a cheap plastic gun that works only with expensive disposable ammo ...... OR ...... you buy an expensive gun that works even with cheap recyclable ammo? That about sum it up?
and the kicker is that newer factory glock barrels have much better case support and are just as reliable from all indications. So clearly the glock didn't NEED to have such a unsupported chamber.

Not necessarily. I've seen the bulge that bad in 1911s that had Bubbafied chamber ramps and excessive headspace. The combination of the two is most often the cause of bulged and blown case heads.
Well the glock firing pin is the dead giveaway, though on that note, I've seen a couple of really scarey looking 38 Super cases that in all likelyhood came from an older 1911 38. Those too had poorly supported chambers and a reputation for blowing up with reloads.

1911Tuner
September 13, 2011, 06:29 AM
Well the glock firing pin is the dead giveaway,

Understood. My point was that, when the "Guppy Belly" bulge is that bad, there's a bigger problem than typical Glock chamber ramp issues. The gun that fired the brass in the picture shouldn't even be loaded again until the problem is corrected.

Catfishman
September 14, 2011, 10:49 PM
Glock chambers are well known for not being fully supported. While this normally isn't an issue so long as the ammo is in spec, with an overpressure round the unsupported portion of the chamber allows the gas, and therefore the pressure, to escape into weaker parts of the gun.



I'm no expert, but neither is anyone who thinks this gun was blown apart because of an unsupported chamber.

BTW - You can find photos of just about every type of gun blown to pieces, not just Glocks. You do see more Glock KB photos because there are so many Glocks and people shoot so many rounds through them. And quit a few people HATE Glocks for no good reason and absolutely love talking about their supposed short-comings.

Timbow
September 14, 2011, 11:52 PM
It's pretty simple, if you're going to reload for a Glock you need an aftermarket barrel. The vast majority of Glock problems regarding reloads have to do with their unsupported chambers, loose chamber dimensions, and unconventional rifling. A good aftermarket barrel solves all these problems.

predecessor
September 15, 2011, 01:06 AM
...This guy took his chances, lost, and now feels he should get something free to make up for him not using some common sense. This is an example of exactly what is wrong with this country at the moment.

Well written Silent Bob. I was amazed at how many of the response posts on the AR15 forum were telling him to sue. Why happened to teaching kids about responsibility?

I'm not saying that those who sell products shouldn't do their best to make sure it's a quality product. They should. But ultimately, nobody forced that guy to buy a Glock. Nobody forced him to load that gun with reloads. Nobody forced him to pull the trigger on that gun. When you pick up a firearm, you understand there are certain inherent risks involved. You understand that the mechanical device may fail for a variety of reasons.

I'm with ya Bob - we gotta fix this litigious culture.