The Dreaded Wolf Jam in my Mini-14

[rc]

I guess I was kinda asking for it, because I haven't cleaned the chamber/barrel of my mini 14 in several hundred rounds since I bought it. It's a relatively new 581 series taper barreled gun. I believed all the hype that Mini's are stone cold reliable with anything you stuff in them even if abused by lack of maintenance..... right:rolleyes:! Well, I've been shooting a mix of brass cased ammo including reloads, federal value packs and steel cased wolf 55 fmj and herters 62gr hp. I'm sure my total round count for this gun is well under 500 rounds. Well yesterday it finally happened. Pulled the trigger and heard a funny report. A little quieter than normal and ....oh F:mad: One of the recent manufacture wolf 55grfmj black box cases was stuck in the chamber of my mini! I tried to catch the rim with the extactor but it just slipped over the rim again. I could see the rim was visibly bent by the extractor from the initial firing. I set the gun aside knowing I didn't have what I needed to resolve the problem and continued to fire my model 77 also in 223. While I've felt the bolt handle sticking a bit from time to time in the bolt action ruger that massive claw has never failed to yank a shell out of the chamber! This stuck case problem with the newer poly ammo is the same exact problem my friend had 6 or 8 years ago in his 9mm Sig using the laqued ammo.

I took a chance on the wolf and herters ammo because of cost and I know that steel ammo will work in some guns designed for it like SKSs. I thought maybe the ruger was built to take all the punishment I could give it and more! Well I went home and poured a little oil around the case head giving it a minute to leak down into the chamber. With the bolt locked back I put an aluminum rod with a brush on it down the barrel. Once the rod was inside the case, I took a wooden mallet and had to smak the handle of my cleaning rod many times before the case finally disloged. I had to unscrew the brush from the rod to get it all apart because the brush wasn't coming out. While the brush was ruined all twised in the case, the ends of the rod were fine. I had to hit the rod hard enough I was afraid the handle was going to break. Without anything on the end of the rod it would have been ruined. I took a larger brush and cleaned the chamber end of the weapon and then put a solvent wetted patch down the bore on a new brush. I went shooting again and put 15 more rounds of wolf down range to see if everything was working again then returned home and recleaned the barrel.

I learned a few things from this experience. 1. No weapon is immune from neglect. 2. Don't put wolf or herters in your SHTF magazines because you bought 1000 rounds and it's been reliable at the range. In a critical situation you could find yourself with an inoperable weapon. 3. Don't expect your extractor to last as long shooting steel cased ammo. It's not because the extractor isn't harder than the case, it's because the extractor wasn't designed to pull sticking cases repeatedly out of a chamber. 4. Keep chambers clean and lightly oiled every 40 or 60 rounds if you are shooting steel cased ammo. The extra maintenance will save you some headaches and repairs.

Other problems I've encountered was with the Herter's ammo. I believe it's made in the same place. I had a primer so hard my Ruger 77 could barely dent it. It would not set off the round after two hits so I put that round aside. One other case had been missing a primer and nearly broke my kinetic bullet puller due to the extreme neck tension when taking the round apart. I had to hit it hard more than 20 times to get that bullet out of the case.

After looking at some Hornady steel match ammo the other day and thinking , wow this looks an awful lot like the wolf and herters cases, I'm wondering how long it will be until people start complaining about that brand of ammo...... rc

[Come and take it.]

sounds to me more like an ammo issue with that particular lot. As you said you had an odd report. The mini did its part, ripping the rim off the case, so that the extractor must be in good order and the gas system has plenty of push.

This isnt really a bad lick on the mini, but a confirmation that (steel cased) stuck cases are more ammo related than gun related.

Wolf ammo has become more and more pathetic in quality control compared to Barnaul, which has taken the lead in steel cased ammunition. Their commercial ammo is designed with american guns and shooters in mind.

The Germans were the first to use steel cased ammo. They fired it in their mg42s, however a machine gun is going to have a generously loose action and larger than mauser rifle chamber to make up for dirt and grime and keep functioning. The germans never intended the 8mm steel cased to be fired in a mauser rifle or in their other guns either.

The moral of the story. Steel cased works good in guns with roomy chambers, not so good with tighter more precise chambers.

I have gone through nearly 160 rounds of the brass plated golden bear and so far no stuck cases. Brass plated could be the answer for steel cased ammo. Copper alloys are some of the best bearing surfaces made.

[the rifleer]

I know a guy, who just like you thought that the mini 14 is utterly reliable. It is, when it has a little bit of oil in it. The guy i know has probably never cleaned it and it was drier than a dried up lake bed. it would not cycle anything more than two or three rounds.


ALL guns must be maintained. I'll bet the wolf ammo is fine when it's lubed properly. You wouldn't run a car without oil, don't run a gun without oil.


It doesn't take much at all, just a couple drops is all you need.

[Edward429451]

I took a chance on the wolf and herters ammo because of cost

So you discovered that if you run the rifle dry and run the worst ammo in the world that you could get it to jam in the face of all us Mini owners, and you seek to blame the rifle...LOL! That's real funny.

[ndking1126]

No weapon is immune from neglect.

Roger that! Anything mechanical will wear out eventually (even the mighty AK) and things not taken care of will wear out sooner and have more problems in the process.

[Come and take it.]

I have put a LOT of ammo through my mini-thirty and I havent cleaned it since I pulled it out of the box. Of course if I ever get a catastrophic failure I am sure it will be related to my neglect.

garands are best left glued to the stock. The stocks tightness is the key to the guns accuracy. If you are constantly pulling it out to clean and sticking it back in you will eventually make even a synthetic or laminated wood stock to have a loose fit.

Of course cleaning the chamber, bore and bolt face is certianly a good practice. In a garand there is very little bearing surface to require lubrication. However a little bit certianly wont hurt.

[rc]

Edward I didn't blame Ruger. I blaimed my lack of maintenance combined with the use ot steel cased ammo. .22's can be shot hundreds or thousands of rounds before maintenance is needed. The japs had to run oilers on their machineguns during WWII to prevent jamming. But the oil collected dirt. I was running my mini hard and on the dry side to see how reliable that gun would be with a mix of steel and brass cased ammo. Now I know that steel cased wolf cannot be relied upon for defensive purposes and should not be left in magazines intended for self defense. I also proved that the sticking problem with wolf ammo was not cured by the elimination of laqure from the cases. I actually think the "poly" lube is more likely to allow the case to rust during storage or in a chamber over night which is a different issue from laqure which seemed to seal the steel surfaces better and not come off on your hands like the "poly" stuff. I suspect the zinc cases may be the best of the steel cased ammo but I haven't tried any yet. My biggest complaint towards the mini is a lack of fine accuracy for a "ranch rifle". However, my opinion may change as I've noted a shrinking of average group sizes lately and I plan to test more loads in the gun to see what bullets shoot best. I think the barrel is still braking in as the cleaning rod didn't travel down the bore with even resistance. Maybe the chamber is still on the rough side too though the gun has yet to jam on any reasonable brass cased handload or factory load. The best use of this steel cased bimetal bullet ammo may be to burnish the bore and chamber to break in new guns, polishing them faster than traditional ammo. rc

[sailskidrive]

Typp

[sailskidrive]

>>ALL guns must be maintained. I'll bet the wolf ammo is fine when it's lubed properly. You wouldn't run a car without oil, don't run a gun without oil.

I run two of my ARs dry all the time; both have nickel boron coated bolts.

[rc]

Actually over lubing a high pressure centerfire chamber can cause problems by straining the bolt and locking lugs. Much of the force on the bolt is retarted by friction fit of the case with the chamber. A gun should be able to run with a dry chamber as long as the slide and other parts are lubed. The oil in the barrel and chamber will tend to smoke off anyways rc.

[Come and take it.]

what about reloading case lube?

[christcorp]

Lack of Maintenance, "CLEANING"; yes. Definitely a problem. But the use of steel case ammo is/was not your problem. If you understand the basic physics behind steel vs brass, you'd know that steel does not expand as much as brass. Therefor, the case doesn't seal in the chamber as well. Thus, some blow back residue/carbon blows around the side of the case and dirties up the chamber. After enough rounds, you get a build up.

Your problem was you don't clean your rifle regularly after shooting it. It had nothing to do with the ammo you were shooting. If you want a rifle that you never have to clean, because you feel you don't have the time to spend 10 minutes cleaning it, then that's your problem. I have 3 .223/5.56 rifles. 2 AR's and a saiga. I shoot 90%+ of my ammo as steel case. Wolf, Tula, Bear, Barnaul, MFS, etc... I never had a problem. Then again; I'm not going to spent $700-$1000 on a rifle and not clean it either.

[Come and take it.]

I have seen crystal clean ARs get stuck cases before the first mag was empty, some ARs never experience them at all. The argument that a dirty gun is responsible for stuck cases in steel, simply only holds a little water and not a lot.

[christcorp]

I'd say it's more than just a little water. I've personally tested brass and steel case ammo in various AR's and Saiga's for this specific reason. After shooting about 100 rounds of Steel case, I can put in some brass ammo and literally see the side of the spent brass case covered in residue. After about 10 rounds, most of the residue is gone, and there's almost none on the brass cases.

Every rifle and pistol is unique and has it's own issues. I have a Walther PPK that will not, under any circumstance, shoot Corbon hollow-point ammo. That's not to say that Corbon sucks or that Walther sucks. Neither does. Simply; my Walther doesn't like Corbon.

I've seen various rifles and pistols have issues with certain brands and types of ammo. Some brass, some steel case, some different weights, some brands, etc... If a gun owner expects their weapon to be perfect; never fail; work with every ammo manufactured in the world; etc... then they are naive and don't know as much about guns as they think they do. It's mechanical; it has parts. There are definitely some individual guns that don't like certain ammo. That doesn't mean the ammo is bad, or that the gun is bad. Just part of that individual gun's personality. But the overwhelming majority of steel case ammo issues has absolutely nothing to do with it being steel case or that it's russian ammo. It has to do most times with the chamber becoming dirty and grimy because the steel cases don't seal as well, and the chambers get really dirty, really quickly. If you don't clean your rifles after shooting a lot of steel case ammo, you WILL EVENTUALLY have an issue. Not IF, but WHEN.

If you're rifle is the type that doesn't like a particular type, brand, weight, etc... of ammo; you're going to notice that almost immediately. Not after hundreds of rounds. More like within the first magazine.

[taylorce1]

what about reloading case lube?

I was always taught to run a clean and dry chamber. It is one thing to lube the rails so the bolt runs smoother but keep it out of the chamber. As far as reloading case lube, after resizing I run my cases back through the tumbler to remove it, as leaving it on the cases causes them to tarnish faster.

[rc]

cristcorp, I disagree. The gun itself was not crudded to the point of requiring a mandatory cleaning. There was under 500 rounds through the gun and I had taken it apart once to inspect the rifle and wiped down the loose powder fouling. I don't believe I had formally cleaned the bore and chamber yet. This is not an M16 that blows hot propellants into the chamber. I was not having a problem with brass cased ammo due to lack of cleaning. I also disagree with you about the reason steel sticks in the chambers. The fact is that steel has less spring than brass. It is tougher to expand and therefore also tougher to contract when pressure drops. Ever spent any time at a reloading press??? You would stick a steel case in a reloading die is short order. If the soft steel wasn't expanding enough to seal the chamber, there would be all kinds of blow back around your bolt face. Yes there is more crud when using cheap ammo, but I believe that the coatings used to try to dry lube the steel cased ammo is simply a light residue an annoyance and not the culprit. Maybe with a looser chamber or a different cartridge or at lower pressures sticking would not be a problem with .223 ammo. Maybe some of the Russian ammo is not sized properly. I haven't run 100 rounds of unfired ammo through the gun to see if I could stick an ufired round in the chamber. 7.62x39 has much more body taper than a .223 and I never had a jam in an SKS with Wolf. Bottom line is steel cased ammo is inferior to brass cased ammo and Mini 14s are not immune to jams with steel cased ammo. While preventative maintenace may reduce or eliminate jamming in mini 14s shooting steel cased ammo, it may not be possible in an emergency. rc

[christcorp]

The gun doesn't have to be dirty to the point of requiring "mandatory" cleaning. Personally, I wouldn't go more than 500 rounds between cleanings. Normally, I clean my weapons when I'm done shooting them. Not necessarily the barrel or a deep cleaning, but I clean the chamber, bolt, and gas system if applicable. I spent 21 years in the military. I always clean my weapons if I'm going to use them. I hear people actually BRAG about going 500-1000 rounds or more without cleaning their weapon. As if that's some accomplishment. Personally, I don't want to even know these type of people. If they care so little about something like cleaning their weapons; then chances are they are slackers in many other areas. And I don't care for those type of people.

You can disagree if you want. That's you're prerogative. I have had more years of experience with steel case ammo in many different calibers, in many different weapons, than I care to count. I've also spent more than 30 years reloading and shooting a lot of brass. Some things simply aren't worth debating or discussing. Believe what you want. It's cool. I'll believe what I know. That's cool too.

[Bamashooter]

The way I see it the steel cased ammo doesnt expand causing more than usual fouling in the chamber of the mini. Its usually less accurate. Its dirtier than 90% of the ammo I have used. All of this adds up to its not worth shooting in my rifle. I dont care how many of you guys swear by it, to me its not worth the hassle and the loss of accuracy and the extra time cleaning. Im a reloader anyway so I personally dont shoot anything but brass. Unless im out of ammo in an emergency situation I will never shoot steel cased ammo.

[christcorp]

Its dirtier than 90% of the ammo I have used.

I think you're exaggerating, or have been given some pretty bad information. Unless you grab some old stock military surplus steel case; which is almost impossible to find in .223, and almost as rare in 7.62x39; you'll find that all the modern day steel case ammo is just as clean as most of the brass ammo that you're shooting and reloading.

And personally; I don't know what this "Hassle" is that you speak of. Do you find it a hassle to clean your weapon? There's no "EXTRA CLEANING". It's not like it's corrosive ammo or something and you need to clean the bore out with soap and water first. Just normal cleaning is all it takes. It's the Rambos who go 500 to 1000 rounds without cleaning their weapons that tend to have more issues. There's no HASSLE with steel case ammo. Most rifles do not show any major loss of accuracy over basic target ammo like PMC or similar; "I know that reloading CAN be more accurate". And there's definitely no extra time cleaning involved. Not sure where you get any of this information from.

[rc]

Cristcorp, what was your typical load out in the military? Diid you ever come up empty after a depoyment? What was your average number of rounds fired between cleanings? Ever have a malfunction with military ammo? Just curious? rc

[Come and take it.]

I have always enjoyed shooting more than cleaning. A lot of the time you have two kinds of rifle owners. The ones who clean a lot and the ones who shoot a lot lol. most semi-automatic rifles will perform for quite a while without cleaning so long as you are not dragging them through mud.

[christcorp]

Cleaning my AR takes a total of 10 minutes. I'm not talking about breaking it down to every pin and spring. But if you can't spend 10 minutes cleaning the bore, chamber, and bolt, then there's no sense of discussing it. And I don't mean 10 minutes as a "Figure of speech". I mean it literally. Twice a year, I might break the rifle down completely and give it a good scrubbing. So sorry if I giggle at your 2 types of rifle owners. At least you're humorous. I shoot close to 20,000 rounds a year. 5,000 just out of my one AR. And spending 10 minutes to clean out my rifle is not taking away from any shooting time.

RC, I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean by what my typical load was; or if I ever came up empty. As for cleaning; I simply cleaned when I had time. Whether I shot it or not. In panama, there was a lot of rain and mud. In the gulf, there was a lot of sand and dust. "Except in the beginning of the year; a lot of rain".

For some reason, many people in this conversation are under the impression that cleaning a rifle is something that takes a lot of time; requires a complete dis-assembly of the rifle; and is inconvenient. Running a bore snake dipped in solvent down the barrel a couple of times, and a chamber brush is usually enough.

[HAMMER1DOWN]

rc... the typical load out is 210 rounds of 5.56x45, thats 7 30 round magazines. on a deployment you never "come up empty" unless you are in on helluva fire fight. there is always a chance to re-up yer liquids, ammo, and gear when you get back from a mission. and I have fired hundreds of rounds in a very short period of time outta an m4 carbine and since I treat my rifle like any of the ones I have back at home it functions flawlessly. Never had a jam while shooting it with live ammo, (blanks are another story).

But the Moral of the whole thread comes down to cleaning yer D**M weapon. Why would you treat an investment with such disrespect and utter negligence? To me that is just a sign of laziness, and personally think there is no room to complain about malfunctions.

Hammer1Down
U.S. Army Infantry, 2006-present

[christcorp]

Thanks for the clarification hammer. For some reason I thought he was referring to the "Load of the rounds". And being Air Force, I didn't have the same type of missions that my army brothers had. My job was mostly taccom. We had our patrols and recon, but they were normally a lot closer to our support and we weren't gone for days at a time.

But like you, whether practice or live fire, I never had any malfunctions. Blanks do indeed suck. They really dirty up the weapon. And like you, I was taught and always believed in keeping my weapon cleaned. Whether it was my m16 or the POS 9mm, if I had some free time in the field, I would make sure it was clean and lubed.

[Bamashooter]

Christcorp I know for a fact that the russian steel cased ammo is dirtier than most brass cased domestic ammo, practice and otherwise. I also can say without question that its far more dirty than my reloads.That's just one of the hassles.
There is extra cleaning involved when you shoot dirty russian ammo. I dont have an issue cleaning my weapons, in fact I kinda look foward to it. Just one of the quirks I have. I always clean my rifles after I shoot them. No matter what.
You might be right about the steel cased ammo being close in accuracy to pmc and other cheap plinking ammo, I dont know becouse I dont shoot the garbage, but in my experience its dirtier than most.
There is no way steel cased russian or any of the domestic plinking ammo can touch my plinking reloads in accuracy and its far more dirty than my handloads. I get all my information from experience and when I make a point I try to do it without being condesending or talking down to others. You should try that.
I know from other posts you are a steel case fan, but dont talk down to me becouse I dont like it. Like I said before if you guys want to shoot it I could care less, but I dont.

[christcorp]

I'm not being condescending. I'm being factual. It doesn't take MORE cleaning to clean a weapon that has shot russian steel case ammo than it does to clean brass case ammo. And it's not a "Hassle". It's not like you have to exert more pounds per square inch to clean the bore and chamber after shooting steel case ammo compared to brass. That's simply inaccurate. DIRTIER is irrelevant. Is a plate that had spaghetti sauce on it DIRTIER than one that had gravy on it? Probably. Does it take more effort or more hassle to clean the one over the other? No, not at all.

Now; if you're type that lets the dishes sit in the sink for a week before cleaning them; (Waiting until 500-1000 rounds through your rifle before cleaning it); then yes, it will be harder to clean and require more effort on the spaghetti sauce (Steel case), then the gravy (Brass). But that's ONLY because you didn't clean it after using it. If you clean your guns after using them; "Basic cleaning, not a complete break down", then there is no additional requirements for steel case ammo.

Dirtier is irrelevant. It's not like comparing corrosive to non-corrosive where ADDITIONAL or SPECIAL cleaning is required. I've had first hand knowledge at ranges where a person was having an issue with stuck cases shooting steel case and brass case in their weapons. I didn't dare ask them when's the last time the cleaned their rifle. Most of the issues after shooting steel case is in the chamber. I take their rifle, run a bore snake down the barrel a few times, and a chamber brush for a few strokes, and there's no more issues.

Now, for the person who doesn't think they should have to clean their rifle except after 500-1000 rounds, then definitely don't buy steel case ammo. You'll only get ****** off. Most people aren't into competition shooting or doing long range marksmanship courses. Most people who have an AR/Mini/AK/etc... have these guns for what they were designed for; close range shooting. Whether it's tactical, bad guys in the house, coyote, etc... I don't have a need for trying to shoot MOA groups at hundreds of yards. I want to be able to hit man-size COM with open sights at 100-150 yards. For that, the accuracy of the steel case is quite fine. I can shoot a 4"x4" square with a complete 30 round magazine, with open sights, at 100 yards. What more could I ask for. If I want the MOA type accuracy, I'll use my Sako or Weatherby hunting rifles, where I can shoot a softball size target at 400 yards; as well as antelope and such.

There is no additional effort "Hassle" in cleaning a weapon that has shot steel case ammo compared to brass. Only if you are going to wait for 500-1000 rounds. And the fact that I can buy 20 rounds for $4, means that I can shoot a lot more ammo. It isn't uncommon when my son comes home from school, that we'll blow off 500 rounds of .223 at one sitting. And NONE of my 4 .223 rifles, "2 AR's, 1 Saiga, and 1 Mini", has ever had a problem shooting the ammo.

[Bamashooter]

In my opinion it isnt worth the dollar savings to shoot garbage ammo so shoot it all you like. In my experience it does require more effort to clean a rifle after shooting junk ammo like the russian steel cased stuff. Thats my experience. I have already stated that I clean my weapons very well after every shooting session so Im not sure why you keep bringing that up. Just becouse you like shooting junk and dont mind cleaning filthy guns doesnt mean that I do. Your opinion is it isnt any harder to clean, my opinion is that it is. I guess we will have to just disagree.

[christcorp]

That is correct. We'll disagree. You say it's harder to clean after; I don't. You say it's junk; I don't. You say it's only $1 savings per box, I say it's between $2-$5 compared to inexpensive brass ammo. You're basing your opinion off of what you say is "Your Experience". And I only rebut because I want others reading, to realize that your experience isn't the only experience out there. There are plenty of others who don't have any issues with shooting steel case. Their experiences is that it isn't junk ammo and it isn't inconvenient to clean.

The only difference between your opinion and mine, is that I've never dogged the person who doesn't "want" to shoot steel case ammo. I've never said they were wasting their money. But you're willing to say that people who do shoot steel case ammo are buying junk, and that it's junk in their weapons. We just have a different approach to those we disagree with. The same can be said for scopes and other items. Some people will give opinions and options. Others will stand by the position that if their opinion is that it's junk, then anyone who buys it needs to be told that they are buying junk. This is their "Expert" opinion. Opinions suck. Give experiences, give honest options, and let individuals make up their own minds and decisions.

[essohbe]

If it's worth mentioning, it has been determined in another thread on another forum I'm on that the Wolf 5.45x39 is out of spec. The same could be the case with their .223 ammo also. Maybe quality control went to hell. :barf:

[eastbank]

the wolf steel 30 carbine ammo will not run in my two GI cmp carbines,80-90 rounds and the cases start to stick in the chamber,needing a ram rod to get them out. these two carbines have ran over 200 rounds each with out a fte with pmc and GI brass cased ammo. so no more wolf steel cased ammo for me. eastbank.

[HAMMER1DOWN]

Christcorp, no problem on the clearing up. Just thought my info would help there, and if it means anything I have shot about 500 rounds of Wolf and Brown Bear (both poly and laquer coated steel case stuff) and never had a jam and could even hit MOA at 200 yards wih the Wolf stuff outta my AR-15 with its 16 inch barrel. Did I ever have a malfunction someone might ask, Nope, ran just fine but did notice it left a little more carbon on my upper receiver and bolt carrier group, but nothing major, still just as easy to clean up.

[christcorp]

My experience is pretty much the same as yours Hammer. Only difference is, my AR has about 2,000 rounds of russian steel case through it, and my Saiga has about 5,000 rounds through it. Takes me just as much effort to clean my weapons whether it's steel case or brass case ammo going through it.

[Ignition Override]

My Mini 14 was built in 1990, bought in March '08 and kept clean. The torn silver sticker on the stock said "State of Indiana".

Including almost all of my bolt-action rifles, also kept just as clean, the Mini was the most reliable gun I've owned, and used only Wolf or Silver Bear ammo. It consumed about 1,400 rds. of Russian-made ammo.

As for the Mini 30's problem with mixing ammo and stuck cases, a gun smith evaluated the cause.
Because of owners who allowed lots of carbon to build up in the chambers around rigid steel cases, the switch to some brass-cased ammo allowed the cases to expand into the nasty gunked up chambers.

This caused some stuck cases which owners often blamed on the rifles, maybe not admitting that their habits (lack of cleaning) were the problem.

As common as the SKS is (mine is Chinese), it would never occur to me to neglect the gun. Lots of them have been mistreated.
The rifle is not responsible for its "country of birth" or the existence of the Chinese Communist Party, but plenty of people seem to blame the rifles.

The really fun Mini 30 and 14 should not be blamed for what an owner does or does not do with it, or that it was built to be reliable, and carried around on a horse, truck or mountain bike for short distance targets.

[sailskidrive]

I shoot Brown and Silver Bear .308 all the time in my PTR-91 with out any issues; and the PTRs are known for having a "picky" chamber.

I do however disagree with the assertion that the Russian steel case ammo is not "dirty" than most domestically produced brass cased ammo. I've noticed that the typical brass cased WWB, Prvi Partizen, and Federal XM193 that I usually shoot produce a dry, very fine, talc powder like residue. Where as the Brown and Silver Bear as well as the Barnaul steel cased ammo usually leave behind a semi "wet" and gritty residue that builds up faster. The only really bad experience I've had with steel cased ammo was with the older Wolf .223. I was letting my kid brother shoot my Fulton Armory varmint AR when I noticed something wet and sticky on a spent magazine. A quick look in the receiver and I noticed what I assume was the lacquer from the steel cases oozing down the inside of the mag well. I also had a JP bolt crack while shooting steel cased ammo, but that was more likely from years of abuse. ;-)

[christcorp]

Sail: The lacquer on the cases, even the older ammo, couldn't "melt" off of the cases. Too many experiments and research has been done on that. I myself pulled the bullets out of a few lacquer coated rounds; dumped the powder; and popped the primer out. I then tried using a blow torch as well as boiling and other methods. The lacquer doesn't melt off.

The powder residue in the bore, as well as the gas system is usually dry, because it has the heat of the flame of the ignited powder burning and drying it. The residue in the chamber, that would be on the sides of the case don't get burned as completely. Same with American brass, steel, and aluminum case ammo. It's just that the brass and aluminum cases expending more, don't allow such residue on the sides of the chamber. I've never had any of the powder/carbon residue in the barrel or in the gas system, ever be sticky and wettish. Only in the chamber area. I've never done it, but if typical powder, such as what's in Winchester WB was loaded into steel cases that didn't expand as well, I believe the chamber residue would be similar.

[rc]

Christcorp, the military puts weapons through rigorous malfunction testing. I simply put my weapon to the test and reported my experience. If I had cleaned religiously, I might not know the limits of my gun and ammo. Just becaue the mean falure rate of a 45 1911 is something like 1:4500 rounds doesn't mean that a typical shooter would go even 1000 rounds without cleaning due to the mud, dirt and muck a weapon is tyipcally exposed to in combat/duty use. Now I know that regular maintenance is important to keep my mini running smoothly I will clean it more often. Like others have also experienced, steel cased ammo in and of itself is responsible for what I would consider premature malfunctions. rc

[Jeff F]

The thing with steel cased ammo is that you have to clean the chamber real good and more often. I shoot a lot of Herter's and have found it to be good practice ammo in a Mini 14. Just clean your rifle and inspect the rounds before you load them in the magazine.

[sailskidrive]

>>It's just that the brass and aluminum cases expending more, don't allow such residue on the sides of the chamber.

That makes sense; and yes I was referring to the residue on the bolt and carrier not in the barrel or gas tube/system.

Regarding the lacquer or polymer coating, whatever it was a the time, I was pretty sure that the coating was the issue. "Oozing" probably wasn't the best description, but there was definitely a noticeable wet looking residue that resembled a quick blast from a spray can of lacquer. This was several years ago now and I sort of remember web chatter about Wolf switching from lacquer to polymer coating. Either way my varmint rig is a pretty nice set up: POF lower, PRS stock, Fulton Armory built upper w/ a matched bolt, CMC trigger. I only shoot higher end brass in it now, although will put steel cased through my other rigs that have red dots on them. I was letting my much younger brother put some rounds down range that day and the inexpensive steel cased Barnaul seemed like a good idea.

I find your little experiment testing out the case coating pretty interesting, there is always a lot of talk on here but it's nice to here of some empirical evidence to back it up.

Uh... back to Mini-14 issues... that was the topic. ;)

[essohbe]

Uh... back to Mini-14 issues... that was the topic.

Lol. Yea but you have to address the ammo it eats :p

I meant to say the BULLETS were out of spec on the Wolf, NOT THE CASES being steel vs brass, the sealant, laquered, etc... it was the actual diameter of their bullets.

[eastbank]

i like to run my defence rifles untill they jam with the ammo i use with out cleaning. my carbines are cmp rifles and were cleaned real good,chambers and barrels along with magazines being inspected. the wolf steel cased 30 carbine ammo would not do 100 rounds with out fte,s, by the same test with pmc and GI ammo the carbines will go 200 rounds with out a fte. maybe my carbines just don,t like wolf, but due the the tests its a no brainer for me. NO STEEL CASED WOLF AMMO FOR ME. eastbank.

[christcorp]

eastbank: I hate to tell you, but if even with common commercial brass ammo, your m1 carbine is only going 200 rounds and then having an ejection problem; your carbine definitely has a problem. Don't be proud that it can go 200 rounds with brass and 100 rounds with wolf. Those numbers totally suck.

I've had shooting days where I brought 3-4 semi-autos and a lot of ammo for my family members to shoot. "They all come out to visit from New Jersey, where the communists don't let them play as easily". Anyway; I've easily put through 500 rounds EACH in my M1 Garand, "CMP Ammo; corrosive and non-corrosive"; 500+ through my M&P15 AR "All Steel case"; 500+ through my saiga .223 "All steel case ammo", and at least 400 rounds through my m1 carbine, "approximately 200 rounds each of brass and steel". And NONE of them had an FTE after any of that. Normally I don't shoot 500 rounds per gun in a day without cleaning, but a couple times a year I do.

If your m1 carbine is only going 100-200 rounds and having ejection problems if you don't clean the rifle, then it's not the ammo. Your rifle has problems. Check out your springs. They're cheap. Look into a total new set of springs. Especially the recoil, ejector/extractor springs.

[eastbank]

i didn,t say my carbines had any fte with pmc or GI ammo,only that i fired 200 rounds with out any, if my defence rifles will shoot 200 rounds with out any fte or ftf i,m satisfied with it and the wolf would not do that.what i said was the wolf steel cases would not go 100 rounds with out a fte. eastbank.

[christcorp]

Well; the way you phrased it, you're rifle went 100 rounds of wolf before a fte, and 200 rounds of pmc before a Fte.

But you clarified it and showed that the carbine can go at least 200 of pmc without an issue. Thanks for clarifying.

Let me say however that all ammo is not created equal. Don't believe that your weapon is suppose to fire all ammo perfectly. That is naive. I have a walther ppk. It is considered a quality weapon. It will not however shoot corbon ammo. Does that mean walther sucks or that corbon sucks? No; simply that the 2 don't like each other. Not someone else's walther. Just this particular walther. You ended your post by saying: "No steel case wolf ammo for me". I'll buy that. So long as you only mean Wolf. I recommend that you try some brown bear, silver bear, MFS, tula, Barnaul, etc... There are plenty of "other" steel case ammo out there. And don't let anyone tell you they are all the same, just with a different name on them. They'd be 100% wrong. Just as wrong as saying that Winchester, Federal, PMC, and Remington are all the same, but with different names.

FWIW: I've also got one of my primary hunting rifles that will not shoot Winchester Super X. It take almost 2 hands to close and open the bolt on my 7mm magnum. But it will shoot all the federal, remington, Winchester supreme, and hornady that you can feed it.

That's the 2 biggest problems with people and their weapons. Any issues whatsoever, and they want to blame the ammo; and that somehow, their rifle/pistol is SUPPOSE to shoot every possible ammo in the world. That's simply not true, and it's unrealistic to expect such a thing. Could I get my Walther or Savage "FIXED" so it will work better with the 1 Brand of ammo that currently it has trouble with? Probably. But why would I do such a foolish thing. Spend all that money, and risk the weapons not shooting as well as they do. All because I found a particular brand of ammo that it doesn't like. Now; when I find that my weapon doesn't like 3,4, or 5 brands of ammo, then I have to admit that my weapon has a problem. And likewise, any rifle that doesn't shoot ANY Steel case ammo, definitely has a problem with the rifle. It isn't the ammo. Not if so many others are shooting it fine. That doesn't mean you have to pay to fix the weapon. It might not be worth it. Especially if there's plenty of ammo that it will shoot.

Bottom line; steel case wolf is NOT barnaul, silver bear, MFS, brown bear, tula, etc... I am speaking however generally. Not just to you, but to others reading this with similar concerns. 30 m1 carbine ammo is not all that available. Wolf is one of the only steel case ammos for that caliber. So your option becomes limited. But for the person who is thinking ammo issues with the .223/5.56, 7.62x39, 308, and a number of other calibers; don't stereotype all steel case ammo as being all the same. You don't classify all brass ammo as being the same; don't do it with steel case. But again; for you; there isn't a lot of steel case for the m1 carbine.

[FireForged]

I will use wolf with complete confidence in my AK or SKS system rifle. I will NEVER use wolf in any other weapon I own or may own in the future. I limit other weapons to Federal, IMI, and S&B.

[christcorp]

I will use wolf with complete confidence in my AK or SKS system rifle. I will NEVER use wolf in any other weapon I own or may own in the future. I limit other weapons to Federal, IMI, and S&B.

And your reason for this is..... why? Are you saying that other weapons such as an AR15, M1, Browning, etc... are inferior, and can't handle wolf ammo? It's not like a certain rifle was made specifically for the steel case ammo. If it was, you probably better tell hornady. They're now building steel case ammo for AR's and Mini's.

[Jeff F]

I should have added to my earlier post, that if you shoot a bunch of steel cased ammo, clean your chamber before you shoot brass cased ammo and you wont have problems with cases getting stuck in the chamber.

[Skans]

Extractors are cheap. I use Wolf in my AC556. Would I prefer to use brass? Sure. 1000 rounds of reloaded brass costs me about $150 more than what I pay for wolf. A Mini-14 extractor is about $8.00. So far, my extractor is just fine. I guess you could reload all of your own brass. How much is that really going to save you over Wolf??? Don't forget to factor in the cost of a good press, case trimmer, dyes, good dispenser, work bench that it can be mounted on, etc, etc, etc. And, is your time is worth how much?

Look, I used to reload. I don't mind it when shooting an expensive cartridge like 22-250, 10mm, .44 magnum, and a bunch of other overpriced cartridges. I ain't about to start reloading for .223, 9mm, or .40 in bulk.

[madmo44mag]

For what it is worth - we shoot a lot of Wolf ammo.
One day at the range every other round started hanging.
Would have to beat it out with a brass rod.
I took out a bottle of synthetic oil and lubed very lightly the outside of a round.
Over 500 rounds later I had another get stuck.
Repeated the lube and went over 500 rounds more before a stuck round happened again.
The synthetic lube is high sheer and high heat lube.
The chamber is clean and no residue has been seen.
It works for what it is worth.

[christcorp]

That's very important info madmo. Too many people think they are in the military and might be shooting hundreds of rounds in a defensive nature. They aren't in the military. Not even a police/swat situation is going to have you shooting hundreds of rounds like that.

I heard a person say they didn't like the russian steel case ammo, because if they didn't clean their weapon after "X" hundreds of rounds, or when they were done shooting for the day, that they were taking a risk using it if they needed it. All I could do was laugh at them. I even asked them if it EVER had issues in a clean rifle. They admitted no. Only after hundreds of rounds. When I asked them if they thought they'd be in a position where they needed to shoot hundreds of rounds in defense, they said: "You never know". Definite red-dawn mall ninja conspiracy theorist. So I recommended that they shoot the cheap russian for practice and plinking, and have their 500 rounds of quality brass ammo loaded in magazines, in a clean weapon, for their "Make Believe" combat scenarios. Of course their response was frustration and no legitimate argument. Some people are simply Sheople. They can't think for themselves.

There are definitely some weapons that simply don't like a particular ammo. Guess what? That doesn't have to be just steel case ammo. There are some that don't like a particular brand of brass ammo either. You have to get to know your weapon. What it likes to eat and what it's accurate with. But making blanket statements about a certain type of ammo is ignorant.

[only1najeep]

I have fired countless rounds of steel cased ammo (mostly wolf) from my Mini-14 and have had zero stuck cases. All I do is run a bore snake through mine about six times and occasionally lube it up and have no problems.

[FireForged]

I will use it in AK and SKS's because they dont seem to be bothered by Steel lacqured looking cases and fouling. As far as being designed around steel cased ammo, the AK47 certainly was. Seveal of my other rifles are bothered with failures when I run Wolf. Its not about being superior or inferior, its just that some weapons run better on "better" ammo. If I pay a grand on a rifle, I dont mind spending another couple of bucks per box of ammo, if it will midigate failures.

[christcorp]

Well, my M&P15 and my FrankenAR don't seem to be bothered by it, so I guess I'll keep using it in them. FWIW: There is also polymer and Zinc Plated steel case ammo. Not just Lacquer. Also; I shoot a minimum of 5,000 rounds of .223 per year. "400 rounds per month". That's a minimum. I buy my steel case ammo at normally $4-$4.50 a box. (Shipping included). Cheap PMC Bronze when on sale, runs about $6.50. With tax, or shipping if I buy online, the cheapest brass ammo will still cost between $6.50-$7.00 a box. That's approximately a savings of $2.50 per box. And that's if I can find cheap brass ammo. Most other brass will cost around $7-$8 a box with s/h. A savings of more like $3.50 a box.

Now that may not sound like a big savings to you, but me shooting 5,000 rounds a year is 250 boxes. Meaning, I save between $625 and $875 in a year by shooting the MFS, Bear, Wolf, Herters, etc... ammo. Even if the worst case scenario happened, and the steel case ammo caused my AR's to wear out prematurely, I save enough money to buy another brand new one every 12-18 months.

Fortunately for me, steel case ammo won't prematurely wear out my AR's, so that's why I'm able to shoot 400-500 rounds a month of the ammo. At regular brass prices, I'd be shooting a lot less or spending a lot more. But we all have our preferences. My guns are made to be shot. They aren't family heirlooms that have been in the family for 200 years. A gun in the safe doesn't accomplish anything. And I have plenty of weapons for self defense if one of them ever broke on me. But at least for now, our constitution still allows us to own guns and to shoot. That is the most important thing. We are free to shoot any ammo we want. As long as we are shooting.

[FireForged]

I know for a fact that the russian steel cased ammo is dirtier than most brass cased domestic ammo, practice and otherwise. I also can say without question that its far more dirty than my reloads.That's just one of the hassles.
There is extra cleaning involved when you shoot dirty russian ammo. I dont have an issue cleaning my weapons, in fact I kinda look foward to it. Just one of the quirks I have. I always clean my rifles after I shoot them. No matter what.
You might be right about the steel cased ammo being close in accuracy to pmc and other cheap plinking ammo, I dont know becouse I dont shoot the garbage, but in my experience its dirtier than most.
There is no way steel cased russian or any of the domestic plinking ammo can touch my plinking reloads in accuracy and its far more dirty than my handloads. I get all my information from experience and when I make a point I try to do it without being condesending or talking down to others.

I dont care for Wolf, I have had trouble/failures with it in my non SKS or AK system rifles- oh and one 9mm semi auto. Anytime you speak ill of Wolf you will always have the Wolf fans come out and say its wonderful. Well, all I can say is that it is certainly different in many respects when compaired to domestic ammo. If my rifle works with domestic stuff and doesnt work with Wolf. I can only assumes as a non scientific layperson that my problems may be caused my some difference between domestic and wolf ammo.

[christcorp]

If my rifle works with domestic stuff and doesnt work with Wolf. I can only assumes as a non scientific layperson that my problems may be caused my some difference between domestic and wolf ammo.

Unless you believe that your rifle is perfect, and can't possibly be at fault, that is a way too generalize conclusion. Even for a layman.

1. ALL Wolf ammo in question is STEEL CASE AMMO, but NOT ALL Steel Case Ammo is Wolf. In other words, your rifle may simply not be compatible with wolf, but it might work fine with bear, barnaul, MFS, tula, tiger, or a number of other brands.
2. Too many people lump ALL steel case ammo together believing that it's all identical ammo, just with a different name on it. That's like saying winchester, federal, and remington are all the same; just with a different name on it.
3. Sometimes, a particular weapon and a particular ammo just doesn't get along. That doesn't mean that it's the ammo's fault. It doesn't necessarily mean it's the rifle's fault. But there are definitely many people who refuse to believe that their rifle could ever be the problem. And yet, when you read all the reviews on certain russian ammo, there tends to be certain weapons that have many more problems with said ammo than others. Yet those people will refuse to believe their weapon has anything to do with it.

I've been shooting for 40 years. I've owned my own personal guns for the last 35 years. I've tried just about every manufactured ammo on the market. I've reloaded more calibers than I currently even shoot. And I've shot more steel case ammo in weapons than most people have shot brass. And there have been every combination of "INCOMPATIBILITY" you can imagine. I have a savage 7mm magnum that doesn't like Winchester "X" ammo. Even with the best cleaning, spent brass will get stuck in the chamber. Even on the first shot after cleaning. Is it Winchester? Is it the rifle? Maybe shiite happens and the two simply don't like each other. To believe in perfection in a weapon and ammo combination is naive. I have a Walther PPK that will not, under any circumstance, load and chamber Corbon ammo. It will not happen. The way the ammo is loaded, it simply won't fit. Is it the pistol? Most likely. The lead where the rifling starts is too far back and the bullet seems to hit the rifling too soon. Does that mean Corbon sucks, or Walther sucks? Neither. This particular weapon and this particular ammo simply don't like each other. It's NOTHING MORE THAN THAT!!!

So no, you can't come to any conclusion by saying if your rifle works fine with domestic ammo and not with wolf, that the problem is that there is a difference between domestic and wolf. It could be that your particular rifle isn't within specs. Maybe your rifle only has a problem with Wolf and could work flawlessly with bear, MFS, Barnaul, tula, etc... So no, it's not that simple. Especially when there are plenty of others who have absolutely no problem whatsoever shooting wolf. When the mil-spec for 5.56 NATO was established, it was done so because it was quite probable and likely that during war time, 5.56 ammunition wouldn't only come from a United States contractor. The ammo in use by american soldiers could also be made in Norway, Greece, South Africa, and a number of other places in the world. And because of the lead, a properly built 5.56 chambered rifle, should have no problem shooting any .223 ammo. Even steel. However, the spec is for 5.56. Unfortunately, I can't really find too much Steel Case 5.56 nato ammo to test with.

If you really care to see if it's the rifle or a single compatibility issue, I suggest you buy some MFS, Tula, Bear, etc... and try them also. If your rifle works fine with the others, it's simply a single rifle and single ammo compatibility. If your rifle doesn't like ANY Steel case ammo, then it's your rifle. Not the ammo. The barrel was probably not chambered or bored properly. Sorry. There are way too many people shooting steel case .223 ammo successfully for someone to say that all steel case ammo is the problem, and that it's not the weapon. And for what it's worth, I've only found 1 particular rifle, that seems to have more problems with steel case ammo than any other rifle. That's the bushmaster. When a person who owns a bushmaster says they have problems shooting certain ammo, EVEN BRASS AMMO, I will bet money that it's the bushmaster's fault 9 out of 10 times.

[eastbank]

out of the wood work they come. my test was useing two cmp carbines in next to ex condition, both carbines were cleaned like i regularly do and fired with wolf steel cased shelles, both carbines would not run a hundred rounds before jamming and needing a good cleaning with a good solvrent. useing 60,s GI ammo and pmc along with white boxed winchester, they both ran a full 200 rounds each with a mixture of the brass cased ammo(no ftf or fte), the test was the same for wolf as the brass cased ammo, slow fire,fast fire for both.maybe i got a batch of bad wolf ammo. use what you want and i,ll use what works in my carbines. eastbank.

[christcorp]

Not saying you got a bad batch of wolf. Not saying that at all. It perfectly conceivable that your rifle doesn't like wolf. And unfortunately, when it comes to M1 Carbine, wolf is about the only steel case ammo out there. So for you, and your rifle, wolf is not a good choice. There hasn't been 1 person making a comment or opinion that wolf is the greatest thing in the world. So, the "Out of the woodwork" remark is a bit uninformed.

But when it comes to steel case ammo, "In General", more people have success with it than those who don't. And most importantly, all steel case ammo is NOT ALL THE SAME. No matter what some people want others to believe. So for those who have a choice of different brands, they should try different ones to see what/if their rifle likes it. On the other hand, there are some who generalize it all together, and prefer not to shoot any steel case ammo. These people too, I don't really care either way. It's your weapon and your money. People are free to do whatever they want. I ONLY respond when one of two insinuations are made. 1) Steel case ammo can harm your weapon. "That's a crock of shiite". 2) All steel case ammo is the same; therefor if 1 particular brand doesn't work well, then all of them suck. That's just simply ignorance. Other than that, people are totally free to shoot whatever they want.

[notamisfit6]

Wolf .30 Carbine, at least in the past, was pretty notorious for being underloaded and causing short-stroke jams fairly often.

[raftman]

People often, perhaps even usually, lay blame according according to their biases. Sometimes it correlates to cost, or country of origin, or bias in favor of a specific brand/manufacturer, or something else entirely, or any combination of these.

For example, the Sig Mosquito and Walther P22 are often reported not to work well with the cheap, crappy bulk ammo, but most will blame the guns, saying they are "picky" about ammo. What's their evidence for that assertion? They can point to other firearms, which seem to be able to handle the ammo in question with no apparent difficulty.

However, with other guns, and the Mini-14 and Mini-30 are often an example, the blame will often fall squarely on the ammo, even if the problem is exactly the same, in spite of the fact that there are still plenty of guns that will run on the ammo without issue.

Why? Maybe because they spent $700 on the gun and would feel foolish for having dropped that kind of scratch on something that doesn't work... no it has to be the ammo Maybe they're a devoted Ruger enthusiast and can't accept the notion that Ruger would produce a less-than-perfect product. No, it has to bet the ammo.

[christcorp]

:thumbsup:

+1000000

[eastbank]

i have no axe to grind with wolf steel cased ammo, i wish i could use it. but my carbines just don,t run with it, they even ran with cheap mexican surpluse ammo. if my carbines did not run with the mentioned brass cased ammo they would be fixed or be gone. the carbines are not my main defence rifles,but it is nice to know that in a pinch they would do nicely if i could not get to my M!A. eastbank.

[FireForged]

I agree with east.. If I didnt have half a dozen local ammo choices that run perfectly well in my rifle, I would work on the rifle or get rid of it. I could work my rifle to run on wolf, I just dont think its what i need to do at this point.

[christcorp]

"local ammo Choices"? Ammo is the same whether you get it from a local store or you order it online. Or are you talking about reloads?

I have definitely found that for the average shooter; who shoots at the most; 100 rounds in a month; it really isn't a big issue to go to the local shop and buy some $7-$8 PMC and spend $30 or so once in a while. But when you're shooting 100+ rounds every weekend; 5,000 plus rounds a year; I prefer to save $500-$800 a year.

I do buy defense ammo locally. But with that, I only go through maybe 1 box per year per caliber. But for plinking, I like going out and blowing off 500 rounds in a couple hours. I wouldn't be doing that if it cost me $200 all the time.

But some of you bring up that you could work on your rifle to make it work with wolf. Who said it had to work on wolf? Maybe an M1 Carbine because that's all that's available. But when it comes to the more readily available calibers like .223, there's only at least 10 different brands of steel case ammo. This includes lacquer, polymer, and zinc plated. There's no reason in the world to think you'd have to make your rifle work with a particular brand, unless your rifle won't work with any of the brands.

[eastbank]

for just plinking wolf would work maybe for me,but i know the brass cased ammo works for my carbines and i have a good supply of it on hand and and i am set up to load with a dillon 450 and have serveral thousand empty cases. given the choice i will always take what works in my guns, and i think most would.

[triumph666]

keep in mind the 2 firearms u used are chambered for 223 remingtone...guns chambered in 556nato sometimes have a slightly over bored chamber(like m16's) to accommodate hot ammo and the wolf style ammo.....so the cheap stuff should be fine in some guns but not all especially if its SHTF times

[Blade37db]

Wolf .30 Carbine, at least in the past, was pretty notorious for being underloaded and causing short-stroke jams fairly often


I didn't know this when I bought an AO Carbine in 2005. Thought it was the rifle or mags. Switched to Remington and the gun ran much better.

[Kentucky_Rifleman]

How does the steel-cased ammo function in old-school ARs? I'm getting ready to put one together.

KR

[christcorp]

I have a 20+ year old frankenstein and a 5 month old S&W M&P15-OR that I bought at christmas. They both shoot steel case just fine. More than 90% of my .223 ammo is steel case. In 5 months, I have a few thousand rounds through the M&P15. I've only put about 1000 rounds through the frankenstein over the last year, but most of that was steel case. Normally, I don't buy/use wolf ammo. Not because it isn't good, but because it usually costs more. I do keep a 500 round sealed spam can of it around in case of SHTF. But I prefer shooting Barnaul, MFS, Silver Bear, Tula, and Herters. Only because I shop around a lot online and at gun shows. I can usually find this ammo in the $4-$5 a box range. My favorite is the Zinc Plated steel case. MFS and Silver Bear. I have a source for the MFS where it's $240 for a case of 1000. That INCLUDES SHIPPING AND HANDLING. That's $4.80 a box. The zinc feeds much better than polymer and lacquer. If you want to order some, go to weaponsworld.com I'll even make you a deal. If you buy it and you don't like it, I'll buy what you don't shoot off of you for the same price. "I prefer the 62 grain SOFT POINT, so keep that in mind if you take me up on my offer". Finding 62 grain soft point .223 for $4.80 is almost unheard of. It's cheap enough for plinking; great for varmints and prairie dogs, and soft points work great for home defense.

[Father Time]

Tula, and Herters

I think that Herters is just repackaged Tula ammo. Not that it matters much because it shoots fine in my S&W AR15 as well.

But no problems with wolf here.

[christcorp]

The barnaul factory makes barnaul and all 3 versions of Bear. Does that mean that all 4 ammos are the same; just with a different name? No. Ford owns Ford, Lincoln. Mercury, austin, and mazda. Does that mean all of those vehicles are the same, just with a different name? It's quite possible that herters and tula are made at the same factory, by the same company. It's also possible that they have separate recipes for their ammo. It's also possible that the tula company sub-leases their plant. That's very common with many manufacturers. I.e. The catholic church and quite a number of printing press companies for much of their literature and such. They found that they could handle most of their requirements a few months out of the year. They would sub-lease their printing facilities to publishers of regular books and such when they weren't using it. So it's not uncommon for an ammo manufacturer to subcontract a loader to make their ammo. It could be the same factory that makes another brand. But it could have a totally different recipe.

Not saying that tula and herters aren't manufactured in the same facility or by the same company; just that to be identical with only a name change, makes no business sense at all.

[notamisfit6]

It makes perfect business sense when you realize that Tula has only recently started marketing its own ammo in the States, and has quite a few agreements with resellers like Wolf.