View Full Version : Fight to Lose?

August 28, 2000, 04:41 PM
Lawdog brought up a post on East and West swords and it brought up a whole slew of subjects.
One idea that came to mind, ...Dragontooth 73 brought up was having a smaller unskilled opponent beat you.
I wanted to know what kind of experience some of you all had in this department...I don't think there's any shame in it because you were probably were fighting somebody that was more highly motivated than you to win and you survived and hopefully learned from that experience(s).
In the mid 60's (1960 you guys...Hah! Hah!!! Not 1860, I'm not as old as you guys think I am) my grandpa told me to "never fight someone that had more to lose than you...because you'll probably lose.) If not killed, you'll probably be maimed or hurt badly.
One of the fastest fights I lost was against Bruce Lee at his school on College St, but that's a different story.
One of the worse fights I lost, I had already been in the martial arts for over 12 years..the guy was 6 inches shorter than I (I am 5'6") and I spotted him 50 lbs. (I was 140lbs.) I had been working security on a city's parks at night when this 15 year old showed up on one of the parks. He was a known vandal, and suspected arsonist, other employees told me that he was also a suspected rapist...you know, one of the poor unfortunate products of our society.

As an aside, I had met this young man on my first day on the job...Easter Sunday...I was just supposed to act like a recreation person, but I was really there to do security...chase the young hoodlums off the park and keep the peace on the park. He decided to rob people (families) by sticking the dad or oldest brother in the chest with his pen knife (about a 6 inch knife,double edged, long and thin, made to look like a pen). Then he'd demand money. He was working his way down a park path, when I spotted him doing the dirty deed on yet another family.
Bottom line, he tried to stick me, I got the knife away from him..he started to run...His 10 year old friend...that's right! A ten year old little girl stalled me long enough with a switch blade so that he could get away. I was amazed....so i got the blade away from the little girl, but I let her go because I couldn't figure it out...a 10 year old, girl.
Anyway, about 3 months later, I run into the young miscreant again with his 7 year old brother...I stopped them..this is about 8:30 p.m.. I get a whiff of paint on them and the youngest one has a spray paint can in his rear pocket.
I look at the walls of the recreation building and see fresh graffiti the same color as the can of paint in his pocket. P.C.. Ah hah! Probable cause, not Klinton's pc.
"All right, boys, empty the pockets...citizen's arrest...I'm holding you all for the cops. " I am unarmed.
No cell phone in those days. What to do? They empty their pockets, I check pockets for weapons...standing relaxed after that exercise, when the older one distracts me, the young one dives behind me and I go head over heels from falling for that sucker move. I do a judo break fall, but because of the difference in angle from tripping over the curled up youngster, I get some of the wind knocked out of me. The young guy has already popped up from under my knees and kicks me in the head...great for releiving those sinuses. The older brother goes for groin kick. I check with legs in jiu jitsu block, extend my legs in a kick against his upper thigh, his uppper body comes forward, I try to grab his triceps for tomoe nagi(sp?)type throw. Older brother folds knees to lower his weight which brings him to land on his knees, missing the grab (skinny arms), I go for single hand strangle on his throat. He frog hops onto my extended legs and puts a double handed bare strangle on my throat (I'm in a half sit up position).I'm still trying to get some air when little brother runs around and clobbers me in the base of my head with something hard, I palm hit the older brother in the throat, but not enough energy behind it. He chokes, but I hear his little brother yell, "Use the gun! Use the gun!"
In desperation, I lunge for older brother, tackling him by his ankles...something hard at his pant leg around his ankle. Now he is on his back facing him, and I'm kneeling as I keep on holding the bulge on his ankle, slapping his arms away from trying to pull what I thought was his gun, younger brother then screams and wraps his hands around my eyes, then switched to my throat and one foot kicks me in the upper spine and locks straight as he's pulling me backward making my back arch as he's choking me. With older brother now heelkicking me in the chest and solar plexus and alternating trying to keep me in a kneeling position by bringing his heels down on my thighs...flexible little buggers.
I remember coming out of the darkness soon after ? When I felt some sharp kicks in the ribs..I curled up at that point. Then I must have blacked out again because I remember feeling hurt,cold and alone in the dark as I lay in the grass of the baseball outfield where I caught those two boys.
I got to my car and drove slowly home so that I could get someone in my family to drive me to the hospital which was farther away.
Result? Bruised ribs, black and blue finger marks where the youngster choked me, a really sore throat, various cuts and bruises all over the body, and a feeling of depression as I had to reevaluate my need for the job and especially as I had to rethink what I did and didn't do and what kind of M.A. should have come into play.
I worked in the parks for another year (I really needed that job as I was working my way through college.) I left later because of an even more dangerous situation...but that's another story.

Anyway, after this long post how many of you realize there is a totally different mindset in a knock down dragout? How many of you are content with your knowledge of M.A. and gun foo?
Or what other measures are you taking to help you "fight to win."

Stay safe...sorry about the length of the post.

August 28, 2000, 11:00 PM
You're talking to a guy who almost lost a fight with a mechanical Santa Claus. :D

Domestic calls, when the wife realizes that you're about to haul off her husband. Got my butt kicked a time or two there.

Got really stomped by a schizophrenic EDP once.

Thought I was going to have to shoot a 14 year-old girl and her mom after Child Protective Services decided to put the youngest child in custody.

Gun Fu, Chair Fu, Flashlight Fu, Tree-branch Fu...I've probably used all and more at one time or another.


August 29, 2000, 10:59 AM
:eek: ... i remain convinced that people underestimate the ferocity of short people all too readily. they just don't fight fair ... whatever fair may be anyways.

i went into aikido primarily because it taught me how not to get hurt in various rolls, flips, and joint locks. true i could have gone into BJJ for all those, but considering i was living in japan at the time and BJJ has only made inroads there in the last several years or so, i chose what was for me the best looking option.

i think Skorzeny mentioned the smaller unskilled(?) opponent using you to wax the floors first, not me. not sure. major jet lag. need tea ...

LawDog and esteemed peers, before i depart i submit to you what i consider to be the ultimate fighting system(?):

Cat Fu

it has all the components of a mysterious gung fu style.

(1) it cannot be taught
(2) its origins are shrouded in mystery
(3) its masters are short, harmless looking people
(4) it involves a lot of chi one way or another
(btw "chi" in chinese = energy, "chi" in japanese = blood)
(5) it is universally feared

there ... i think i've got it ... i'll ask my gf later if i've got it right ... opinions?

Danger Dave
August 29, 2000, 11:02 AM
Having bathed a cat or two in my life, I think cat fu would be quite effective. Fifteen pounds of ticked off, panicky house cat is more than I want to tangle with again anytime soon - even with a 10x weight advantage!

August 29, 2000, 11:20 AM
A friend of my wife tells a story about cat fu, which he swears is true. He grew up outside Cleveland, OH. When he was a teenager, one night they were awoken by a crash and screams in the living room. He grabbed a baseball bat. His dad grabbed a .38. They went to the living room and turned on the light.

There in the living room was a robber, being held captive by their 12 lb cat. Said cat was attached to the robbers arms. Kitty had his fangs dug gum deep into the robbers upper arm, his front claws sunk into the arm as well. Kitty's rear paws were doing a racetrack kinda thing with claws extended on the robbers lower arm. The robbers shirt sleave and lower arm were shredded as a result.

That cat was still attached to the robber when the police arrived and nearly bust a gut laughing. When the owners went to try to remove the cat from the robber, the cat growled at them. Apparently, he didn't want to share his prey :D

Sure would like to have a cat like that around.


August 29, 2000, 02:15 PM
I became interested in BJJ in 94 or so after taking TKD and Aikido on and off for several years. I am a pretty big guy, 6' and around 260 or so. I went into the BJJ studio and went against their teacher, a brown belt under Nelson Monteiro, who was all of 170lbs on a good day.

We got on the mat and the guy says "Ok, now get me in a headlock or something." The guy then comes at me full speed, so I used a rolling foot-on-his-hip throw to slam him against the padded wall. Well, on the way down, he armbarred me that quick. I tapped right away. Throughout the sparring session I was armbarred probably 10 times and choked out once due to leg triangle. Very humbling experience.

Recently, I had shown my girlfriends younger brother some BJJ positions, strikes, etc. One night outside of my apartment, he was sucker punched by a gang member (right in front of me, out of the blue) that had about 60 or 70 pounds on him. Brother screamed, scuffled with the gang member for all of 30 seconds before he took him down into the full mount. Brother did left-right left-right punches for about twenty seconds before I had to pull him off the guy, whose face now looked like road kill.

Cops came, listened to what happened and let everyone go. Chalk up one for the good guys.

August 29, 2000, 04:52 PM
M1911, that sounds like *my* cat... except that Knack weighs twenty pounds and looks like The Cat Of The Baskervilles.

Don't ever underestimate the power of Cat-Fu. I still carry a huge scar from when I reached into a writhing razorball of feline mayhem to separate my beloved kitten from the neighborhood bully tom... who promptly slunk off and was never seen again. That was 9 years ago.

As Knack sleeps on my pillow, if TSHTF, the first weapon I'll put into play is him. If the kinetic energy of twenty pounds of enraged, homicidal feline doesn't knock the goblin down, twenty linear inches of claws and fangs sure will.

My furry buddy. :D

August 30, 2000, 03:02 AM
Huh? Did someone mention my name?

The "rolling foot-on-his-hip throw" is called Tomoe Nage. The typical Judo version often has the attacker going straight over and the defender remaining in place. The BJJ version has the attacker going at a slight angle and the defender following (rolling over) for the "mount."


If you were in Japan, why didn't you study Judo at Kodokan (or many of the university clubs)?


For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu

August 30, 2000, 01:16 PM
i see there is agreement that Cat Fu is the greatest of all the unarmed fighting styles ... (busts gut laughing) ... my gf also practices it, she's rather, er, proficient ... (*gagged*)

Skorzeny, for aikido i studied at the honbu dojo in west shinjuku for a while ... reasons i didn't become a judoka are:

(1) too many cops and olympic athletes etc etc in kodokan ... pressure is very intense. too many injuries. remember, i went into aikido to learn how to avoid serious injury, not to get my arm busted in randori.

(2) too many people i knew in the university club in judo ... didn't care to face off against ex gf's younger brother or whoever ... plus the intercollegiate judo matches are ferocious ... had enough on my mind without the aggravation ... i think you understand.

my $.02 on tomoe nageh, is that in real life it never worked for me ... going down on my back on pavement with whatever kind of detritus is very unappealing ... having the throw stall due to lack of momentum and having your target right on top of you suspended by one leg's worth of distance is really stupid ... i speak from direct experience ... i'll throw in $.01 more for memories ... :o

August 30, 2000, 10:42 PM

You sissy! Didn't want to do Randori, so went off to Aikikai, eh? Just kidding...

In all earnestness, without Randori, you cannot really learn to deal with non-compliant opponents in a realistic fashion.

On the other hand, I understand the issue about over-competitive atmosphere. I love practicing Shooto myself (gotta love all those "sneaky" leglocks), but sometimes the atmosphere created by too much testosterone is less than ideal for calm training.

As for Tomoe-Nage, I think that it is effective in some situations. Like many other things, it is a desperation move when one is caught in a surprise tackle. I really like the variation often used by BJJ practitioners. It works well when a guy pushes or leans forward in a clinch.


For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu

August 31, 2000, 10:58 AM
Skorzeny & Dragontooth 73,
One of an embarrassing moments was during the time when I helped my friend open up a karate dojo in a small town..we'd have people drop in to challenge me (I was the only black belt at the school, my partner was still living in L.A. and he would come up once every few months). The challengers came mostly from the local Buddhist church's---judo dojo.
Being an old style jiujitsu practioner (practiced on ground, no mat; no formal dojo, instructor was 5th dan kendo,life long jiujitsu,2nd dan iaijitsu, and 2nd dan aikido from Uyeshiba school ...maybe classmate, Dragontooth? He taught us a lot of arm locks, arm bars, and naked strangles. He insisted on reality, so no gi's, and tap outs had to be extremely fast or out you go.

Anyway, I digress...one time, the judo champion from the local dojo challenged me to randori. I told him that I was mostly karate, but I would fight him by countering him only... He was same height, but spotted me ninety pounds.

Long to short, he kicked me in my shin which I had just injured the previous week in a karate tournament. He was leg sweeping me and I went down, while going down I reached into his lapel area and crossed his throat with my forearms. He fell on me as I choked him out. Only trouble is he was out when he landed on me and I was in a position that i couldn't get out from under his weight.

My first class arrived finding us in that "embarrassing"position :o ; :o;
Any thing like that happen to you guys?

August 31, 2000, 05:32 PM
LASur5r, i have no idea if your friend was from honbu dojo ... he might have been from a regional one ... or maybe another intra-city one ... lots of faces show up just once a month or something so i'd have no idea ...

Skorzeny ... you're right ... randori is the only real way to get true *fighting* skills ... mind you i went into aikido for calm ... i remember the kyokushin world championships of last year ... right before the finals the kancho (head) told the japanese team "oh by the way, if you lose do cut yourselves open" (seppuku ... btw the japanese lost to the brazilians) ... pressure in judo and karate to win is huge ... in olympic matches, losing against a non-japanese opponent has massive stigma ... kind of like if the italians trashed the u.s. in basketball x100 ... with sydney coming up the last year has been really just intense ... anyways i digress.

the tomoe nage in BJJ is much better ... i've gone *splat* on numerous occasions trying to pull the straight judo one ... of course that's why i like stand-up throws like irimi nage ... i don't have to get my threads chopped up and i don't get flattened.

August 31, 2000, 09:33 PM

I don't think that "Tomoe Nage in BJJ" is necessarily "better." That variation is used by both Judoka and BJJ practitioners.

I just like that variation better. I cannot speak for others...

As an aside, Kyokushin was founded by a Korean, so it's funny to see the Japanese being nationalistic about it!


For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu

Danger Dave
September 1, 2000, 12:01 PM
That bit about cutting yourselves is probably made out of respect to Mas Oyama - once he told his team before the tournament something to the effect of "if we don't win, we should all commit seppuku!" He also told his students that if they died fighting, he would kill himself in order to join them. Great motivational speeches...

September 1, 2000, 07:19 PM
Interesting info on Oyama. Tough guy, for sure.

Skorzeny: Where did your teacher learn shooto? From what I heard, the Shooto guys are pretty tight lipped about their techniques over in Japan (like kZ factory). I thought it would be a while before it arrived over here. Awesome style. How do they approach the striking?

From what I remember, most of the guys like Sato, Uno, etc have traditional MA backgrounds as far as their striking... I know Vale Tudo takes a lot from Thai, but Shooto looks like it has more TKD style kicks...

September 2, 2000, 01:32 AM

My instructor trained at the Inosanto Academy under Yori Nakamura and Erik Paulson. He has also trained with at the Machados and at Pat Miletich's school.

His striking style is mostly Muay Thai, because he trains in Muay Thai. Actually, my perception is that many Shooto guys are trained in Muay Thai-style striking, rather than TKD style.

Many of them seem to like the "Muay Thai" shin kick to the thigh. TKD does not really teach to kick with the shin.


For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu

September 3, 2000, 02:52 PM
Kind of related to the initial posting. Except it was the big guy (myself) who had the will to win, and the little guys who luckily for me didn't know how to hit worth a damn.

When I was 17 I got jumped on a bus by 4 wannabe gang bangers. I guess that the deal was to get initiated they had to find a big white guy and beat the crap out of him.

The bus came to a stop, and people started to get off. Looking back I was in condition white (I was a kid what did I know).

I was just sitting there when all of a sudden I feel this huge whallop to the back of my head. The guy sitting behind me had a wrist cast. He just started to wail on me. I had no clue what was going on, I started to get up when the three in the aisle all started to punch me also. I was a human pinata. It took a second for me to realize what was going on (long enough to bust open my nose, lip, blacken both eyes, and dislocate my jaw, still can't chew gum without it popping 8 years latter).

I stood up, crawled over the girl that I was sitting next too (she was busy screaming her head off), still getting wailed on. Got out in the aisle and then it got a little fuzzy. Broke one guys nose, chucked another one on the floor, and split his head open. Bad concussion.

Next thing I know I'm just sitting there bleeding and the two uninjured ones are carrying the other two hurt ones off of the bus. Nobody even tried to help.

I was much bigger than any one of them. And luckily I was stronger, but I guess it all comes down to who wants it more. Just thought I would share.

September 5, 2000, 03:03 PM
Glad to hear that you are alive and well. Yeah, when the chips are down, that's when the will to survive/win, either kicks in or...Plan B isn't so hot, but that's how I first learned Spanish here on the mainland.

I got in a fight with three Hispanic boys (junior high school) in northern California. In Hawaii, I had learned to fight fair..you know, let the guy up if you knocked him down, etc., no kicking in the privates...
Anyway, it was one on one so far, when one of the guys sitting on the sideline said to his buddy, "Kick him in the huevos!"
In my mind, I went "huevos?"
then he did...kick me in the huevos. I went down and I believe they all did the 'Mexican hat dance' on me because when I came to, I hurt all over my body and I had quarter size black and blues from shins to head. Italian 'stiletto' shoes were popular then.
In Hawaii, you knew usually when you hit the floor you had a chance to catch your wind as the other guy would wait for you to get up on your feet. After that fight with those three guys, I reevaluated fighting style and worked hard not to stay on the floor long.

Anyway, Correia, you did a good job...so goes the saying, "Can't keep a good man down." Keep on being that good man.

September 5, 2000, 10:42 PM
LASur5r, yes it does suck when you are the human pinata. :D I grew up the same way, me and my friends got into fights all the time, we would beat the hell out of each other but we never went out of our way to hurt each other, and we did try and keep it "fair".

When dealing with goblins and scumbags however the rules change drastically. :(

I for one want to hear the Bruce Lee story...

September 6, 2000, 07:27 PM
Thanks for the interest...be careful what you ask for...Nah, just kidding. :D :D

In '64, Bruce threw down the gauntlet at the Long Beach arena. Challenged any blackbelt of any style. He said that he could beat us. Shortly after that time, we heard that Bruce had opened a school in L.A. Chinatown. I was already a black belt in jiujitsu and I was a shodan in Kempo (Ed Parker style)...but our instructor was a tournament type of guy so I got into it because of the heavy sparring ...eventually, I lost the reality based jiujitsu...old style no mats, no tap outs.
I was heavily into ippon sparring. Score by one hit and I forgot it was a game,not real fighting, but I was having fun and I was getting trophies for the school. I even came close to "beating" guys like Chuck Norris, Mike Stone, etc...Big Deal. In my school, I was considered to be one of the fastest guys around.
So when Bruce said at Long Beach, all our "sparring" wasn't real...we were chomping at the bit to prove to him or anyone in his school that we would "kick ass."
Finally, we had our chance. He was only letting in black belts because there were too many challenges. We set up an appointment, four of us would go.
The way we did it was cross hands(like you saw in "Enter the Dragon." We didn't realize we were playing his game, because we didn't know much about trapping.
So when it was my turn, my lead hand came near his hand...I was ready to block his lead hand and follow up with a rear hand punch from the hip...when BOOM! I was hit right in the cleft of my chin, right below the lower lip...I was knocked out and I was standing in place, Well, actually, I was leaning a little against the wall. My friend standing behind me, grabbed me by the shoulders and asked if i was okay.
Bruce was so fast that no one saw what he did. Even though, I had just experienced it, I had no idea what he had done.
The next black belt in line was really tournament experienced and he was knocked out just as quickly.
The other two black belts that I came with were also street wise and they changed tactics to be dispatched almost as quickly.
We were notorious "borrowers" at our school. We saw techniques, got back to the dojo and could reproduce the technique and the beginning and ending parts of it. None of us could figure Bruce's technique out. Mainly because it was so simple.
Watch "Enter the Dragon" when he fights the guy with the scar on his face (Bob Wall). The rear hand traps the elbow or forearm of the opponent, leaving that person open to Bruce's lead hand punch.
Bruce had that notorious "one inch" punch down perfect so when he hit you with a punch from one inch away, he packed a lot of power.
One of these days, I'll write about how I really embarrassed myself in front of Bruce and Chuck Norris.

Anyway...keep on training...we spend our whole life, getting ready.

September 6, 2000, 09:07 PM
Awesome story. I can't wait for the other one. Bruce was awesome, that's all I can say.


September 6, 2000, 09:45 PM
Even more impressive than Lee's own ability was his philosophy on martial arts training.

He was one of the handful of folks to emphasize cross-training back then...


For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu

September 7, 2000, 09:31 AM
Cool story. :D

If your going to get beat up, get beat up by the man!

September 7, 2000, 10:25 AM
Okay you guys,
I see I have at least temporarily, a captive audience...somehow when I signed on to TFL I didn't think I'd be talking about Bruce...

Anyway, here goes...
A kempo karate studio had just opened up near my house and I introduced myself to the instructor. He had his black belts "try" me out and after that since I didn't have any money to take lessons, he had me assist in training his kids' classes.
Then he decided to have an "Open House"
At that time, Bruce Lee had just started the part of Kato on the Green Hornet television show, but Chuck Norris was a bigger name at the time.
The instructor was a good friend of Ed Parker's and the M.A. community was fairly small at the time so they often helped each other out. So both Bruce and Chuck was to help do demonstrations of their martial arts at the "Grand Opening." We had other big names, too, but that's for some other time.
Bruce and Danny showed up late so they couldn't do a demo, the audience left except for the diehards and one of my classmates came up and handed a nunchaku to me and asked how it worked...I had no idea, but I had just finished my part of a "live blade" demo and a bojitsu kata, so I was feeling full of myself.
Especially, since I saw Bruce and Chuck walk over showing some interest. This is before the nunchuck was popular...it was the hexagonal shaped handle then. I said that I wasn't sure, but I would give it a shot.
I whipped that sucker around in a sizzling figure eight and I tried the vertical whip trying to bring it downward where it is supposed to hit the inner thigh and come up over the shoulder where you catch the flailing end under your arm to stop the movement.
Well, I had that flailing end really moving and I had misjudged where my inner thigh was...you got it! Right in the private parts!!! :eek: :o :eek: :o
I went down immediately and assumed the position....Yow!
You know...the fetal position..curl up and wishing you were dead! Not only from the pain, but also from the embarrassment.
Here's the classic part, Skorzeny, Bruce peers down at me and said, "Hey, I like this weapon. You just hand it to your opponent and he wipes himself out with it."

Funny, how lonely you can get when you just kicked your own ass in front of people that you wanted to impress.

I believe I just pulled up the tatami and crawled under it.

Let me know if you want to hear some more of these B.L. stories.