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LinuxHack3r
December 24, 2010, 03:19 PM
I am researching and trying to figure out whether to get an Aimpoint or EOTech for my 6920. I like the that Aimpoint's battery life is insane. However, I like the 1 MOA dot feature of the EOTech's (some of them). I want to know the pro's and con's of both. I am looking at something along the lines of the M68 (or successors, the CompM3 or CompM4), vs various EOTech's.

Jimro
December 24, 2010, 04:05 PM
Ok, this is a huge can of worms...

Bottom line, both work very well and are very fast to use. If all you are going to do is set up your rifle with a battle sight zero and call it good they will work great.

The EOTech's are priced a little less, and in my experience the EOTech's are a little less durable in the sandbox. That being said, if you aren't planning to go to war with your personal gear I would recommend the EOTech over the Aimpoint. The EOTech takes AA batteries and even though the Aimpoint has longer battery life, it really isn't an issue if you maintain your gear.

So get the EOTech unless you plan on going to war with a very limited battery supply.

Jimro

Logs
December 24, 2010, 04:08 PM
I had an aimpoint and went back to an Eotech. I like the dot circle better than a plain dot and I like the push button ON versus turning a knob. Both will work fine it comes down to personal preference.

Alden
December 24, 2010, 04:09 PM
Aimpoint. It's simpler, more durable, and the batteries will literally last forever.

Technosavant
December 24, 2010, 05:47 PM
I have Aimpoints. The EOTechs have a better reticle (IMO), but I decided I'd go with the longer battery life and extra durability.

Either way, it's hard to make a bad choice.

Stevie-Ray
December 24, 2010, 06:54 PM
I went with the EOTech. I love it and it was far cheaper. Win-win.

Ridge_Runner_5
December 24, 2010, 07:04 PM
I like the EOTech's larger window and the reticle, but like the Aimpoint's battery life. Also, EOTechs have a picatinny mount built in, whereas the Aimpoint's is seperate.

trublu
December 24, 2010, 09:42 PM
I think if you go Aimpoint, Eotech (or Trijicon) then you can't go wrong. Having said that, I'm a huge fan of my Eotech 552. Battery life has not been an issue - never had any issues with it, fits straight onto the rail and I really like the circle /dot.

GaryM&P
December 24, 2010, 10:12 PM
EOTech. Because they are made in the USA.

Alden
December 24, 2010, 10:15 PM
Aimpoint is endorsed by the Swedish Bikini Ski Team.

Sturmgewehre
December 24, 2010, 10:21 PM
I own several of each, and the Aimpoint is the more durable, reliable and by far has the longest battery life. I replaced the batteries in two Aimpoint Comp M2's after 6 years. Not because they were dead, but because I figured I probably should. I left them on for months at a time too.

With my EOTechs I have to replace the batteries regularly when they go dead.

If you put an EOTech on an Ultimak rail, it will shut down after a couple of magazines due to heat. The Comp M2 continues to work even when it's hot to the touch.

The Aimpoint is simply a superior sight. If you're spending $500 for a sight, you might as well get the best in class.

5RWill
December 24, 2010, 11:22 PM
I agree with sturmgewher to for the most part. I'm going Aimpoint also. But i also believe it comes down to personal preference. They're both good sights. I looked through an EOtech at a local gunsmith and i felt the reticle was blurry, maybe it was that model? Either way i wasn't entirely wild about it. I personally am going to put a Micro H-1 or T-1 on my AR. I wont be going to war or anything, but this gun will be for personal defense/shooting varmints real quick.

Ridge_Runner_5
December 25, 2010, 12:52 AM
If you look at the reticle itself, it is blurry...if you look through it at your target, it clears up a bit.

Chindo18Z
December 25, 2010, 06:08 AM
Comparison of reticle pattern, field of view, or dot MOA is essentially Ford vs. Chevy. I prefer Aimpoint for bombproof simplicity and (IMHO) more user friendly controls.

I've seen a significantly worse track record with EOTech reliability across multiple deployments over the last decade. More of my folks have experienced dead EOTechs than Aimpoints. The Aimpoint is more rugged and less susceptible to unexpected switching off while firing. EOTech fans will argue the point, but the US Military is the largest user of both, and EOTech problems have been well documented since 2001. To EOTech's credit, they have rectified some of those issues, but...I'll stick with the one I know works most reliably.

Additionally, the current battery life of the CompM4 is such that you can actually leave it continuously turned on and not have to worry about a battery change for years (~80,000 hours). Even the older M68 CCO (CompM2) will stay illuminated for many months (~10,000 hours) of continuous use and runs on a 3V Lithium battery (CR123), as does the CompML3 (which will run for ~ 50,000 hours on the same battery).

I suggest that before you choose a sight, you should consider what kind of extended cold weather use you anticipate. Lithium CR123 batteries will continuously function in all-day long outdoor freezing temps. AA batteries...not so much.

I understand that you want a 1 MOA dot...but I have found that a 2 MOA dot is perfectly adequate for all practical combat rifle ranges with 5.56 (against a human sized target). It helps to dial the dot brightness "down" when firing out past 400m.

Billy Sparks
December 25, 2010, 07:45 AM
I tried both and for MY eyes I went with the Aimpoint. The EoTech's blurry reticle bothered me to the point that I found it distracting. If you can try out both before you buy.

Skadoosh
December 25, 2010, 08:00 AM
The Eotech shut off problems of the past is fixed. My experience is that the Eotech reticle is faster in a CQB type environment. I have used Eotechs that still operated and held POA with cracked/broken glass, whereas an Aimpoint with broken glass is down hard. Also, I have experienced problems with Aimpoints in cold temps, but that issue went away by switching to a lithium AA battery.

Over all I prefer the compactness and speed of the Eotech, which I prefer in a CQB type environment.

Sturmgewehre
December 25, 2010, 08:24 AM
What Aimpoint were you using that used AA batteries?

Skadoosh
December 25, 2010, 08:25 AM
Aimpoint CompM4.

Sturmgewehre
December 25, 2010, 08:27 AM
Ok, cool. I've not owned the Comp M4.

LinuxHack3r
December 25, 2010, 08:33 AM
From what I have read, I really like the looks of this:

http://www.aimpoint.com/us/products/all-products/product-singleview/product/compm3/?pid=340&damcat=113

Technosavant
December 25, 2010, 09:10 AM
I have a CompM4 and a Micro T-1. Both are quite good sights. My current standard recommendation for an Aimpoint is the Micro H-1. Much lighter than the Comp series, just as rugged, and MUCH lighter. The only thing the T-1 has over the H-1 is night vision settings- something VERY few of us need (and honestly, t'were I to do it again, I'd have gone H-1).

5RWill
December 25, 2010, 11:44 AM
Thats the way i feel the H-1 is cheaper and i honestly have no need for nightvision. The only other difference is the T-1 is submersible up to 80 feet while the H-1 is up to 15 feet. Then again i don't see myself swimming with my AR.

Jo6pak
December 25, 2010, 11:56 AM
I prefer the Aimpoint for one not so obvious reason. The tube style optics can be mounted with flip-up covers so you can "button them up" to protect the optic from the elements when not in use. Sure, there are covers available for the EOTech style sights, but they are not integrated into the sight and are easily lost when removed. Just another thing to consider.

Personally, I'm running a Aimpoint M3 clone from Primary Arms on my DR200

Willie Lowman
December 25, 2010, 12:07 PM
I tried both and for MY eyes I went with the Aimpoint. The EoTech's blurry reticle bothered me to the point that I found it distracting. If you can try out both before you buy.

You need new glasses. I found my EOtech's recticle fuzzy till I got my new specs and just like that the dot and ring are crisp and clear.

Stevie-Ray
December 25, 2010, 04:38 PM
I prefer the Aimpoint for one not so obvious reason. The tube style optics can be mounted with flip-up covers so you can "button them up" to protect the optic from the elements when not in use. Sure, there are covers available for the EOTech style sights, but they are not integrated into the sight and are easily lost when removed. Just another thing to consider.

GG&G covers (http://www.gggaz.com/index.php?id=58)

Ridge_Runner_5
December 25, 2010, 04:47 PM
The CompML3 Aimpoint is dead nuts reliable, and is what the US military uses...

I liked mine, but was offered an ACOG in a trade and couldn't pass that up :D

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b100/89Sunbird/Shooting/cb05c7e2.jpg
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b100/89Sunbird/Shooting/DSC_0004.jpg

LinuxHack3r
December 27, 2010, 12:01 PM
There are things about the Aimpoint's that I like:

Battery Life
Durability (Waterproof, etc)

However, the EOTech's:

Slightly cheaper
Made in US
Versatility in reticles (I like the idea of having "range dots" for the 5.56 caliber rifle)
Mounts directly to rifle without "mount"
"Big dot" 65MOA for fast close range acquisition.
1MOA smaller dot

I don't know what to do...it's so confusing...I probably cannot go wrong with either, I just don't want to make the purchase and then wish I made the other purchase. I need to find some local shop that I can do a hands on experience.

5RWill
December 27, 2010, 12:32 PM
Ridge, is that a AFG 2 on your second pick?

Also to linux i agree find a place where you can actually compare both. Hell you might even look at the trijicon Reflex sights which are gaining good reputation also.

milo-2
December 27, 2010, 12:39 PM
LinuxHack3r,

I have the Aimpoint CompML3, like it, I have a ARMS quick detach mount so I can mount a more powerful scope on when desired. The unit returns to zero every time it is remounted. I have a 11" circle, ar400 plate I use as a traveling target. There is no problem hitting it rapid fire at 200 tards, though it is designed for closer ranges.
When you get to the gun store that has both EOtech, and Aimpoint, take them both into a dark room, no light, and turn them on, getting the right brightness setting where you want it. You will have your mind made up in seconds. Aimpoint is ten clicks clockwise, one back for daylight, two or three back for night.
That is considering you are buying this type of optic for what I think you are, self defense.
I have friends with EOTechs, it is comical at best watching them trying to adjust those things at the range, just shuting one off is a pain.

Thanks and good luck. Shoot safe.
Milo-2

Sturmgewehre
December 27, 2010, 12:48 PM
Slightly cheaper
Not by much in many cases (depending on model). For the price difference, the fact you'll buy batteries once a decade for even the older Comp M2 the savings in batteries over the course of 2 years will easily make up that rather small difference.

Made in US
Completely irrelevant. If you're making life and death decisions based on refusing to take part in a global economy... well, that's just crazy talk. I would be willing to bet more than one tiny digital part in the EOTech is made in Asia, or elsewhere. So who really cares? I don't. I buy what works, then worry about if it was made by the Swiss or not.

Versatility in reticles (I like the idea of having "range dots" for the 5.56 caliber rifle)
If I'm shooting "at range", I won't be using a dot. That's what ACOGs are for and quick release mounts. Red-dots are meant for CQB and have been retro fitted with 3x magnifiers hoping to make them a bit more useful outside of this realm. Personally, I use them for 100 yards or less and for rapid sight acquisition. I use a ACOG for anything past that.

Mounts directly to rifle without "mount"
You like flexibility in your reticle but you don't like flexibility in your mounting options. Interesting. Personally, I prefer to have the option to properly fit my sight to my rifle. With the Aimpoint for example, I can co-witness the open sights of my AK because I can get it low enough with their lowest mounting option. An EOTech doesn't even come close to sitting low enough.

"Big dot" 65MOA for fast close range acquisition.
1MOA smaller dot
Yeah... I think 4-9 MOA is plenty fast enough... as they're REALLY fast. Brightness has more to do with how quickly I pick the dot up.

Just some friendly counter points.

:D

LinuxHack3r
December 27, 2010, 01:38 PM
@Sturm

Fair's fair. I guess the main reason I was fond of the builtin mount was mainly because I am not experienced with putting such a system together, and to me the builtin mounting "feature/downfall" was one less decision for me to make. And at least the Swiss have a good rep.I am comfortable with buying from them.I still want to handle a few of em, but am leaning towards the CompM3 (or M4 if I could price one cheap enough). So what sort of mount would be a good companion?Are quick release mounts sturdy? And since I have a fixed front site post, would it be neccesary to mount it a little higher?

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

theinvisibleheart
December 27, 2010, 01:43 PM
owned/used both(more than 1 of each).

For me(20/20 vision), EOTech's reticle is brighter/sharper and easier+faster to use on target.

I believe some of USMC EOTech in Iraq has taken an AK47 round in the body and kept on ticking.

Aimpoint is smaller/lighter than armored version of EOTech that uses AA battery though, and has a longer battery life. OTOH, AA batteries are much cheaper and easier to find than lithium batteries.

Aimpoint reticle sight picture:
http://eotech-inc.com/images/aimpoint_view.jpg

EOTech reticle sight picture:
http://eotech-inc.com/images/HWS_view.jpg

Pictures are from EOTech website, but I've used both(milspec Aimpoint and EOTech, as well as Holosight(commercial version which uses lithium battery and is w/o armour...making it closer to Aimpoint in size/weight), and EOTech has superior reticle/acquisition speed(FOR ME, YMMV)).

Good shooting! Happy New Year!

PS
I've also owned/used several different ACOGs.

Tritium/fiber optic ACOGs are more robust but reticle on EOTech is brighter/faster to use(FOR ME, YMMV).

OTOH, you don't need batteries on ACOG.

Best thing is to go a place which has all three sights and line up all three optics: Aimpoint, ACOG, and EOTech and then try to see through them in bright light(indoor/outdoor) and in dark/low ambient light, and see which one is easiest for you to use.

theinvisibleheart
December 27, 2010, 02:01 PM
to turn it off, you just press "UP" and "DOWN" button simultaneously.

To switch it to NV(very low brightness for use with night vision gear), you just press NV switch.

Battery life on EOTech is not 50,000-70,000+ hours like Aimpoint, but it's well in excess of 1,000 hours if it's NOT TURNED OFF.

It's neither clumsy nor difficult to use, but takes fraction of a second.

Takes less than a minute to swap the AA batteries.

Heat: I've actually used EOTech mounted on handguard (UltiMak type arrangement), as well standard receiver mount, and both Aimpoint/ACOG/EOTech function fine despite very high heat emanating from the barrel and/or when used in extreme desert environment.

The technology underlying all three platforms(HD for EOTech, LED for Aimpoint, and tritium/FO for ACOG) have being around for a while and have functioned OK in various highly adverse environment, ranging from high altitude to extreme desert heat.

Although if it was up to me, I think Aimpoint is a clear winner since it's endorsed by Swedish Bikini Team, LOL, (;-).

I don't think an item is functionally superior based on endorsement, military contract, or country of manufacture, all humour aside.

Jimro
December 27, 2010, 02:31 PM
sturm,

If the dude isn't planning on retaking Fallujah with his personal gear, this becomes and exercise in hypotheticals. Take a lude, nobody's life depends on what sight they chose for their AR, no matter how tough their job securing the local mall is.

Let me talk facts. Both Aimpoints and EOTechs were used by the dudes who, you know, actually retook Fallujah. Both systems work. But the sight is one component of a larger system, and the most important part of the system is the shooter.

Heck, there are other options on the civilian market that are "just as good" and a lot cheaper offerings from Burris and Vortex.

Remember, this is just the internet, nobody is going to lose life, limb or eyesight based on whether linuxhack3r chooses and Aimpoint or an Eotech.

Jimro

Sturmgewehre
December 27, 2010, 03:23 PM
So what sort of mount would be a good companion?Are quick release mounts sturdy? And since I have a fixed front site post, would it be neccesary to mount it a little higher?
I've used Aimpoint OEM mounts and they are rock solid. I've also used SWAN mounts for quick release and have also found them to be solid. There are a number of mounting options though and companies like LaRue have lots of good products. Pick what fits your budget and what seems to work best for your setup. Stick with quality manufacturers and you should be good.

Sturmgewehre
December 27, 2010, 03:25 PM
Aimpoint reticle sight picture:
<pic omitted>

EOTech reticle sight picture:
<pic omitted>

That might be what it looks like if you're looking through a night vision device with one eye closed. But that looks nothing like what either sight really looks like when properly used with both eyes open and not using night vision.

If you're using both eyes open as you should, the screen size will be mostly irrelevant.

Sturmgewehre
December 27, 2010, 03:29 PM
Remember, this is just the internet, nobody is going to lose life, limb or eyesight based on whether linuxhack3r chooses and Aimpoint or an Eotech.
Completely irrelevant to the discussion. If you have a problem with the internet, that's a personal problem.

I think you'll find plenty of prior and current service members, combat vets, police officers, SWAT officers, etc. posting here quite regularly.

Both are good systems, and there's nothing wrong with having an opinion as to which one you prefer and listing those reasons.

If you find such discussions annoying and those partaking in them to be imbeciles, why do you bother joining in? Just curious.

Sturmgewehre
December 27, 2010, 03:45 PM
The technology underlying all three platforms(HD for EOTech, LED for Aimpoint, and tritium/FO for ACOG) have being around for a while and have functioned OK in various highly adverse environment, ranging from high altitude to extreme desert heat.

I have experience with the EOTech on the Ultimak too, and I've shut mine down more than once by firing a few quick magazines.

http://www.intempusphotography.com/photos/1076361427_dF6SZ-M.jpg

Researching this issue on the internet, I found that it was fairly common with others using a similar setup. That's when I ordered a low mount for one of my Comp M2's and replaced the EOTech on my SGL-31. I've yet to get the Comp M2 to shut down due to heat.

theinvisibleheart
December 27, 2010, 03:47 PM
Here are reticle pictures of Aimpoint vs. EOTech.

FWIW, both Aimpoint and EOTech are designed to be used with both eyes open.

However, with one or two eyes open, reticle on EOTech is sharper/brighter, at least for me.

The other thing is controls on EOTech/Holosight is about as simple as it can get. Holosight has only two buttons unlike military grade EOTech(no NV button).

Aimpoint:
http://i1204.photobucket.com/albums/bb410/dydacupuncture/Aimpoint.jpg

EOTech:
http://i1204.photobucket.com/albums/bb410/dydacupuncture/Holosight.jpg

theinvisibleheart
December 27, 2010, 03:59 PM
Bundeswehr in Afghanistan have used EOTech on their G36 w/o problem.

There are users in Iraq who have used EOTech installed on forward mount and used it w/o problem.

Now, this doesn't mean every single EOTech out there functions 100%. Neither do I expect Aimpoint to be 100%. Most thing man made is rarely 100%.

Here's a picture of one EOTech/forward mount which functioned fine despite the heat, LOL.

http://i1204.photobucket.com/albums/bb410/dydacupuncture/Romy-SAR1-1.jpg

theinvisibleheart
December 27, 2010, 04:06 PM
how many people have actually used these things?

From reading about an AR which goes thousands of rounds w/o cleaning and function OK to an EOTech which goes bust after couple of mags, I wonder.

Not to mention controls on EOTech being difficult to manipulate.

From perspective of statistic, it's theoretically possible(outliars) but for it to be representative, kind of really stretches my belief.

Snow is clearing up. Time for me to go.

PS
Aimpoint mount: recommend either ARMS or LaRue. On AR/M4/flattop, you can co-witness perfectly or just above the front sight thru use of spacers on ARMS. On LaRue, the dot on Aimpoint sits slightly above front post.

Sturmgewehre
December 27, 2010, 04:47 PM
how many people have actually used these things?
Good question.

From reading about an AR which goes thousands of rounds w/o cleaning and function OK to an EOTech which goes bust after couple of mags, I wonder.
Unlike you, I have a YouTube channel that gives you an idea of how much I shoot. I shoot every week and usually in the neighborhood of 500+ rounds a week, weather and work permitting.

For you to pretend I'm sort of poser or perhaps that I don't really shoot the firearms I own tells me someone has a frail ego. Just because you disagree with someones opinion on the internet doesn't automatically make them ignorant or unknowledgeable.

Oh, and by the way, I can tell from the way the AK above is configured the person that owns it is more interested in gizmos than practicality.

Bartholomew Roberts
December 27, 2010, 05:31 PM
Circa Spring 2008, the SOPMOD Program Manager put out this message regarding the Eotech.

To all concerned:

The SOPMOD Program Management Office (PMO) is issuing this notice to all
potential users of the EOTech SU-231/PEQ Reflex Sight, NSN 1240-01-533-0941,also known as the holographic weapon sight.

1. It was recently brought to the attention of the SOPMOD PMO that there
exists the possibility that the SU-231/PEQ Reflex Sight made by EOTech is
susceptible to failure characterized by the sight shutting off in the middle
of weapon fire.

2. The failure is caused by faulty battery contacts that were incorporated
by EOTech without government concurrence. (See attached image). These
faulty battery contacts are susceptible to wear due to shock while the
weapon is firing. As a result, the batteries may lose contact, causing the
sight to shut off.

3. EOTech has qualified a new supplier of these battery contacts and the
SOPMOD PMO is currently validating this new configuration through testing.
By mid April 2008, this process should be complete. At that time, SOPMOD
will institute a 100 percent replacement of the SU-231/PEQs that have
already been fielded. Maintenance Contact Teams will travel to field units
to either swap out the sights with replacements or conduct on-site field
repairs. As an interim solution, the SOPMOD PMO is currently testing a
field replaceable grommet that will mitigate the risk of failure. Pending
test results, these grommets will be shipped as part of a field replacement
kits to units that have been issued the SU-231/PEQ.

4. The SOPMOD PMO has ordered a halt on any further fielding of this item
until sufficient testing has been performed on sights with the incorporated
part upgrade. For those field units that have already received the
SU-231/PEQ, the SOPMOD PMO strongly recommends not using those sights until they can be replaced or repaired.

The Eotech has been fielded as part of the SOPMOD kit since circa 2004, so it has been around a while, the problems above notwithstanding. Not sure if they have resumed purchase of the SU-231 yet - if so, that message didn't get as wide a distribution as this one did.

Ruggedness aside, I like the display on the Eotech more; but I prefer the controls and battery life of the Aimpoint. I also dislike built-in/included mounts. I'd rather buy one that suits my particular needs.

Jimro
December 27, 2010, 05:43 PM
Sturm,

You shoot 500 rounds a week and have a youtube channel, awesome for you. Do you also guard a mall?

When I was in Iraq I was an Infantry Platoon Leader. I carried an ACOG on my m4 as that was SOP for my unit (all leaders carry ACOGs). We put EOTechs on the m249's with urban shorty barrels and riflemen could choose Aimpoint or EOTech as they wished. Both are fast, both are combat proven, and it doesn't matter which one LinuxHack3r chooses.

And I post on here on the forum because guys like you are funny. Chill out, as much as everyone wants to be prepared for when the blue hatted thugs or red horde invades, it ain't going to happen.

Jimro

Sturmgewehre
December 27, 2010, 05:55 PM
You shoot 500 rounds a week and have a youtube channel, awesome for you. Do you also guard a mall?
Sophomoric, but you're on a roll.

and it doesn't matter which one LinuxHack3r chooses.

That falls right in the "no [sic]" category. I don't believe I've said otherwise.

Chill out, as much as everyone wants to be prepared for when the blue hatted thugs or red horde invades, it ain't going to happen.
Take a little of your own advice.

Jimro
December 27, 2010, 06:40 PM
Sturm,

and it doesn't matter which one LinuxHack3r chooses.
That falls right in the "no s**t" category. I don't believe I've said otherwise.

I'm not the one calling this a life or death decision....

If you're making life and death decisions based on refusing to take part in a global economy... well, that's just crazy talk. I would be willing to bet more than one tiny digital part in the EOTech is made in Asia, or elsewhere. So who really cares? I don't. I buy what works

But I don't shoot 500 rounds a week and have a youtube channel. So maybe you are right, maybe the choice between Aimpoint and EOTech really is life or death?

Jimro

Sturmgewehre
December 27, 2010, 06:59 PM
I know firearms are merely toys to everyone but you, being the only vet on the forum and all. God only knows a lowly civilian like LinuxHack3r would never use their firearm in self defense.

If only everyone had your vast experience and social skills...

All you have are personal attacks and school yard taunts to add the the discussion apparently. As such I should ignore your sophomoric ramblings.

5RWill
December 27, 2010, 08:02 PM
/Thread :eek:

Like i said before linux compare each one side by side see which you like better based on looks of the reticle sight picture etc. then look at the specs and factor that in.

Jimro
December 27, 2010, 08:22 PM
Sturm,

I think you take yourself a little seriously, so I ribbed you a bit. Sorry that it hurt your feelings.

Jimro

Ridge_Runner_5
December 27, 2010, 09:03 PM
Ridge, is that a AFG 2 on your second pick?

AFG 1, bought it before they even announced the second model. I had to dremel down the wings to fit on my LaRue rail...

5RWill
December 27, 2010, 09:41 PM
Thats what i'm going to have to do then. Kinda dissappointed that i bought my AFG 1 then they make a 2 without the shields. Kinda wish i could exchange it, cause they're the same price.

theinvisibleheart
December 27, 2010, 11:51 PM
Circa Spring 2008, the SOPMOD Program Manager put out this message regarding the Eotech.

Quote:
To all concerned:

The SOPMOD Program Management Office (PMO) is issuing this notice to all
potential users of the EOTech SU-231/PEQ Reflex Sight, NSN 1240-01-533-0941,also known as the holographic weapon sight.

1. It was recently brought to the attention of the SOPMOD PMO that there
exists the possibility that the SU-231/PEQ Reflex Sight made by EOTech is
susceptible to failure characterized by the sight shutting off in the middle
of weapon fire.
...
...


There was a limited recall letter/communique from L3 Communications/EOTech while back over certain range of s/n of EOTech which got assembled with faulty battery contacts(bad batch from supplier).

You can call EOTech/L3 and ask if your EOTech is among them or not by telling them the s/n of your EOTech.

However, my understanding is that the problem doesn't exhibit itself unless you shoot hundreds/thousands of rounds through it, not 1-3 mags(unless those mags are BetaMags, LOL).

FWIW, unless a product is 100% ALL THE TIME, any company, be it Aimpoint/EOTech/etc. is bound to produce some defective units if they make enough units. If the failure rate is 1% and the company produced 100,000 units, 1%=1,000 bad units.

If the company produced 1,000,000 units, then 1% failure rate translates to 10,000 defective units.

A faulty product could be faulty due to one or more of 3 factors:

1. design problem
2. manufacturing problem
3. usage/maintenance problem

There is nothing in HD(Holographic Display)/HUD(Head-Up Display) design/technology itself which indicate inherent lack of reliability.

HD/HUD are now used in military as well as commercial application: military aircraft, commercial aviation, automobile, etc.

Military version of EOTech has additional side armour which makes it bigger, but also gives it better odds of surviving a whack and/or a drop on its side.

The reason why Aimpoint lasts 50,000-70,000+ hours is that LED uses a lot less power than laser diode but at a price.

EOTech/Holosight uses laser diode which consumes MORE POWER, but results in a much smaller, finer, visible, brighter aiming reticle. FWIW, their battery life is 1,000 hours plus. In practical terms, that's more than 40 DAYS if you don't turn it off.

For me, I think the trade off is worth it. Worse comes to worse, you can use the giant bracket view of EOTech as a giant ghost-ring if the battery dies.

Human torso is not exactly a small target, LOL. 10MOA weapon (10 INCH error at 100 yards) can easily hit a human target because most people's torso are WAY MORE THAN 10 INCHES. Most people's waist is MORE THAN 20 INCHES, LOL.

RockyMtnTactical
December 28, 2010, 12:12 AM
Both are good. I prefer the Aimpoint.

theinvisibleheart
December 28, 2010, 12:22 AM
Quote:
how many people have actually used these things?
Good question.

Quote:
From reading about an AR which goes thousands of rounds w/o cleaning and function OK to an EOTech which goes bust after couple of mags, I wonder.
Unlike you, I have a YouTube channel that gives you an idea of how much I shoot. I shoot every week and usually in the neighborhood of 500+ rounds a week, weather and work permitting.

For you to pretend I'm sort of poser or perhaps that I don't really shoot the firearms I own tells me someone has a frail ego. Just because you disagree with someones opinion on the internet doesn't automatically make them ignorant or unknowledgeable.

Oh, and by the way, I can tell from the way the AK above is configured the person that owns it is more interested in gizmos than practicality.


You need to know if your experience with a particular item, be it firearm, optic, etc. is representative or not.

If there are 100,000+ units out there and you had bad experience with 1 or 2 units, how do you know if your experience is representative or not? You can't, not just based on 1 or 2 samples.

This is the BIGGEST FLAW with gun rags and firearms/optic/etc. review. Sample size is too small.

OTOH, if you knew the design was flawed for intended usage(e.g., HDD vs. SSD for aircraft Black Box that would potentially be subject to crash) and shared by rest of 100,000 units, you would have a valid point. Unfortunately, HD/HUD design/tech is widely used and proven technology.

I'm not sure how relevant testing 1 or 2 EOTech and shooting 500 or 500K rounds weekly/daily would be unless the problem with EOTech is based on design.

AK in the picture that you disparage: that's a 7.62x39 caliber AK and forward VFG aids in recoil control(7.62x39 have more recoil than .223 or 5.45 AK).

Unfortunately, standard VFG mounted vertically interferes with commonly used 30 round AK mag(that is why you usually see AMD-65 with 20 round magazines because 30 round ones interfere with forward pistol grip). That is why the VFG is mounted on side. FWIW, I'm also ambidextrous.

Yes, the new Magpul AFG would probably have worked, but I don't believe in buying the latest toy/equipment, LOL.

I really don't see any functional problem with the setup. Side-mounted VFG, light, flash hider, and gas tube mounted EOTech. As for the folder, it folds to right and clears the bolt, and you can shoot it folded w/o any problem.

OTOH, you can flip the folder to lock it very quickly when you get out of vehicle or need to deploy it quickly unlike standard AK74/AKS-74U locking folder. Once locked, it's solid.

BTW, assuming you meant original StG-44 for your handle, it's spelled "Sturmgewehr," not Stumgewehre.

PS
I'm not saying you are a poser. I just find it hard to believe that:

1. Aimpoint reticle is as sharp/bright/clear as that of EOTech when used with two eyes w/o NVD(EOTech and Aimpoint reticle being equal).

2. EOTech fails after 2-3 mags when mounted on forward mount unless those 2-3 mags are drums/BetaMags so you are firing hundreds of rounds AND the EOTech was one of those bad recall ones with bad battery contact.

Sturmgewehre
December 28, 2010, 10:48 AM
BTW, assuming you meant original StG-44 for your handle, it's spelled "Sturmgewehr," not Stumgewehre.

http://www.heckler-koch.de/Sturmgewehre

I used the plural because the singular is almost always taken by someone else. You did know that the "e" made it plural, right? Somehow I don't think you did. :D

I never said "2-3 magazines", I said "a few quick magazines". Take a rifle course with your AK setup the way it is and you'll likely see the issue, along with a few others I suspect. As to the rest of your rifle, how does that setup work for you when you shoot left handed? When the stock is folded, how does that sling mounting point work for you? Just curious.

You should check out the current Russian issued AK-74M folding stock. It's very solid, extremely fast to deploy and is a great design. Arsenal sells a few rifles with stocks similar to the AK-74M's and even now sells an actual AK-74M stocked rifle.

I never commented on the sharpness of the Aimpoint dot vs. the EOTech. My only reason for preferring my Aimpoints over my EOTechs is due to 1) battery life, 2) issues with my EOTechs shutting down, 3) mounting options and co-witness with my rifles.

I've ran an EOTech on a M16A2 for many years and thousands of rounds without issue. I also run an EOTech on a FS2000, the sight just fits well on that rifle.

I'm moving more towards RMR's these days anyway. I just ordered another RMR to replace the Comp M2 setup along with a US Palm/Midwest Industries rail system with the dedicated upper handguard. I plan on running the p*ss out of that setup this coming year to see how it holds up.

Mac11
December 28, 2010, 10:56 AM
Maybe this will help. Midway has the R1 on sale right now for $299 just paint it black.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/default.aspx?productnumber=913115

Sturmgewehre
December 28, 2010, 11:08 AM
Mac11, the news of this sale is spreading like wildfire.

It is a great price for a good optic. If I hadn't just dropped $518 on an RMR already this week I would pick one up... just to have. I'm sure I could find something to stick it on. :)

LinuxHack3r
December 28, 2010, 12:16 PM
I'm moving more towards RMR's these days anyway. I just ordered another RMR to replace the Comp M2 setup along with a US Palm/Midwest Industries rail system with the dedicated upper handguard. I plan on running the p*ss out of that setup this coming year to see how it holds up.

Hellfire and brimstones!
^The "S" makes it plural;)

I went to my LGS and really looked at the EOTech's and the Aimpoint CompMl2 (the only Aimpoint he had in stock). He pushed me towards Trijicon. I purposely avoided the Trijicon's because of the price tag. I was afraid of it. I feared. Now I'm probably going to just embrace it because those things are amazing!

Right now I'm really liking the looks of this one:
http://www.trijicon.com/user/parts/products1.cfm?PartID=556&back_row=2&categoryID=3
But as I'm saving my money over the few months ahead, I'm going to research the hellfire and brimstones out of these things!
^Once again, "S" makes it plural.

You guys crack me up. Somehow I always manage to create the threads that turn into the local looney convention.

I wonder what that means since I start my posts with a serious attitude:\

Jimro
December 28, 2010, 02:39 PM
Have we gone the full Godwin? When the aimpoint/eotech thread gets down to STG-44's and German grammar rules we have to be getting close...

Jimro

Silvanus
December 28, 2010, 03:49 PM
I love Eotechs. For me it has the best reticle of all the current reddot optics. The finer 1 MOA dot for more precise aiming and the circle to make close range work fast and easy. I also like the fact that the sights itself doesn't block much of your view. Battery life is definitely it's weak point compared to the Aimpoints though, I hope they'll work on that for future models. But for me personally, it's not really an issue. I change the batteries periodically and if they should fail me some day while shooting, I have a pair in reserve in the vertical front grip of my AR...

This is purely my opinion, and I think that both sights are very good. It come down to personal preference, like most things firearms related.

Stevie-Ray
December 28, 2010, 03:50 PM
I'm moving more towards RMR's these days anyway.I've heard nothing about the RMR and had to look it up. Interesting.

Sturmgewehre
December 28, 2010, 04:25 PM
They are, in my experience so far, quality sights. I have only one right now, mounted to a FNP .45 Tactical. I figure if it can take the abuse of a cycling slide it should be able to stand being banged around on a rifle. :)

Here's an article about the setup I'm building, or pretty close.

http://www.warriortalknews.com/2010/12/the-ultimate-kalashnikov-handguard-system.html

Wrath of Firepower
December 28, 2010, 08:39 PM
Just curious if the smaller EOTech could be mounted on 1:00 offset mount! I've seen the Aimpoint micro and RMR mounted that way.

Ridge_Runner_5
December 28, 2010, 11:09 PM
The offset mounts are designed for use with a mini red dot in conjunction with a scope running at 12 o clock

Technosavant
December 29, 2010, 11:07 AM
Just curious if the smaller EOTech could be mounted on 1:00 offset mount! I've seen the Aimpoint micro and RMR mounted that way.

I don't know why not. The only trouble would be finding an appropriate mount. The Aimpoint Micros lend themselves well to that kind of thing because of how they mount. An EOTech XPS might be able to be put on a rather short offset rail section; I am not familiar enough with how they clamp on and how much space they need.

LinuxHack3r
December 29, 2010, 08:15 PM
I have it down to these optics:

Trijicon ACOG TA33G-8 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0037VVNPA?ie=UTF8&tag=tecstu
20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B0037VVNPA)

This one has the Green Chevron with ballistic marks for .223 caliber munitions.

Aimpoint CompM3 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0016WOEZ8?ie=UTF8&tag=tecstu-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B0016WOEZ8)

This one has insane battery life and a 2 MOA dot.

I really like the Trijicon RMR's, but I believe the smallest dot they have is 3.5 MOA. This would be fine up around 600' in my opinion, however I'd be sold if it were a 2MOA dot.

This is all very confusing, but I am honestly leaning towards the ACOG if I can find the funds;)

The one question I have about the ACOG is what would shooting within 150'? Would it be "fast enough" or would it be cumbersome? I did a hands on for the ACOG and was very impressed. Unfortunately I did not get to fire the weapon:( I understand it isn't going to be as fast as a 1x red dot/reflex, but I believe that the advantage of having a slight magnification would be beneficial for anything over 300'.

5RWill
December 29, 2010, 08:19 PM
I can tell you from looking through the ACOG trijicons are awesome. I'm extremely tempted to put on my 14.5 mid, but i keep telling myself to save money and put the aimpoint micro H-1 for CQB.

Ridge_Runner_5
December 29, 2010, 08:23 PM
The ACOG is a great optic up close to even 30-40ft. Once you get into hallway distances, though, it becomes a bit more cumbersome, at least until you can learn to the Bindon Aiming Concept and get it to be a reflex...

LinuxHack3r
December 29, 2010, 08:55 PM
BAC

I have tried to figure out more about this, I guess it is best understood with experience. The me, I imagine it means getting familiar with your rifle, to the point where in close quarters you simply look at your target with both eyes, however your right eye looks through the scope a bit so to see the reticle on target. You are familiar with your rifle, so you can "put it on target" nearly just as quickly as with a reflex. My question is, what about "parallax free"? Supposedly the EOTech's and Aimpoint's are parallax free. What about the ACOG?

tAKticool
December 29, 2010, 10:50 PM
If you are REMOTELY INTERESTED in an Aimpoint or EOTech or hell even Trijicon (I'd love an ACOG but cmon now $1-$2,000 IS ALOT OF MONEY) you just HAVE TO GET THAT AIMPOINT MICRO....I ordered two actually...It's just such a great deal.

I am so glad I have kept deliberating and waited and didn't do anything stupid and now, perfect timing. NICE nice nice.

MidwayUSA has bought like their remaining stock of R-1's I believe, but so many sales so quickly they sold out of all their Micro mounts, lol, I had to buy a mount from Brownells!

5RWill
December 29, 2010, 11:55 PM
But why does it have to be silver :(...haha if only it was the H-1. Don't get me wrong it shouldn't be about looks but my AR would be FDE, Black, and then silver optic. Man if that was on the H-1!

theinvisibleheart
December 30, 2010, 10:27 AM
I have it down to these optics:

Trijicon ACOG TA33G-8

This one has the Green Chevron with ballistic marks for .223 caliber munitions.

Aimpoint CompM3

This one has insane battery life and a 2 MOA dot.

I really like the Trijicon RMR's, but I believe the smallest dot they have is 3.5 MOA. This would be fine up around 600' in my opinion, however I'd be sold if it were a 2MOA dot.

This is all very confusing, but I am honestly leaning towards the ACOG if I can find the funds

The one question I have about the ACOG is what would shooting within 150'? Would it be "fast enough" or would it be cumbersome? I did a hands on for the ACOG and was very impressed. Unfortunately I did not get to fire the weapon I understand it isn't going to be as fast as a 1x red dot/reflex, but I believe that the advantage of having a slight magnification would be beneficial for anything over 300'.


it's not as fast as holo/head-up display lighted by laser diode like EOTech, but once you use it all the time, you'll get used to it.

You have to realize that ACOG's technology is the oldest of 3 RDO/reflex sight(I believe they started in 1980s while EOTech/holo,h-up based on public domain research, is the newest).

Here's a side-by-side comparison of daytime pic b/w ACOG(yellow chevron) and EOTech.

http://i1204.photobucket.com/albums/bb410/dydacupuncture/ACOG-EOTech-comparison.jpg

BTW, I'm not advocating the company or the product EOTech but the technology(holo/head-up display+laser diode) behind it. More and more companies are coming up with competing product utilizing similar technology.

You don't always need to pay premium dollar to get the most bang for buck. In fact, data shows that early adopters of new technologies tend to pay too much for what they get(cost/benefit ratio being too high).

I'm pretty sure the financial decision Uncle Sam makes, whether in military procurement for small arms or otherwise, is less than optimum. What that means is that if military is using brand X, there is probably a better option out there that is cheaper and gives higher bang for buck.

I have a friend who worked all over(embassy duty/naval op support/SERE instruction/etc.) and for his own use, when paying out of his own pocket for his own use, buys cheap stuff. Not necessarily the cheapest stuff, but stuff that works.

PS
I just showed the reticles to a non-shooter who wasn't familiar with the brand name of ACOG, Aimpoint, or EOTech but that person said without a doubt, EOTech reticle/sight picture was the easiest to see.

theinvisibleheart
December 30, 2010, 11:40 AM
That AK's sling/folder setup is set up the same way it's done in HK UMP with Brugger & Thomet stock(stock folds to right and sling attachment point on left side) and on FNFAL para, and many other small arms.

This is probably the best way to attach a sling on a side folder: sling side not being on the same side as the folding stock side. The reason is if you attach the sling to the same side as the folding side, like AK-100 series, the rear sling attachment point shifts when you unfold it.

There is an imperfect solution to this problem: attach rear sling point to the top of the folding stock, close to hinge point. That way, when you unfold, the rear sling point shifts only slightly. This is the setup I recommend on many small arms which can't have the folder fold to right because it interferes with charging handle, ejection port, etc.

But the best way is to attach the rear sling point to rear stock trunnion and/or rear receiver point on opposite side from the folding stock side.

Arsenal USA/AK-74M folding stock suffers from the same problem: when you unfold the stock, the rear sling point shifts. Also, compared to UMP/FNFAL para style folder, it takes longer to unfold the stock on left folding AK(including Russian ones) since you have to use the support hand to unlock the stock.

BTW, I think Arsenal USA AKs are overpriced, LOL. Also, solid wooden stock is more comfortable to shoot than the solid side-folder. But I'm getting the impression that at least on this thread, the primary purpose of combat arms are LOOKS followed by JONES factor(US gov use it, heard it recommended in training class, so-and-so shooter/unit/in gun rag,web forum, it lasted zillion rounds/etc. uses it, etc.).

With the AK setup I have, I can use a very quick flip to unlock the folder or give it a quick silent flip via fingers of the shooting hand to unfold the stock. It's much MUCH faster than unlocking the AK folding stock, be it solid/V-shaped AK stock system with the support hand.

As for your advice on taking small arms classes, I appreciate your concern, especially since I don't keep track of small arms training/classes that I have had.

As for weak side shooting with the setup, when I shift to left side, I let the flashlight rest on the palm of my right hand(no VFG use) and switch to left eye(I'm also co-dominant...can easily switch eyes when shooting). Instead of focusing on particular methodology, it's more important to focus on the rationale behind the recommended way of doing things.

Unfortunately, training tend to be designed for mass instruction and foster rigidity in thinking/way of doing things instead of pliability.

The rationale behind weak hand shooting is either to maximize the use of cover and/or being unable to shoot right handed due to injury. If the purpose is to maximize the use of cover, then the real focus should be on reducing EXPOSURE, which includes time.

What that means is that if you take much, much longer to shoot weak sided compared to shooting right sided, then it might make much sense just to lean slightly more and shoot right handed.


Take a rifle course with your AK setup the way it is and you'll likely see the issue, along with a few others I suspect. As to the rest of your rifle, how does that setup work for you when you shoot left handed? When the stock is folded, how does that sling mounting point work for you? Just curious.

You should check out the current Russian issued AK-74M folding stock. It's very solid, extremely fast to deploy and is a great design. Arsenal sells a few rifles with stocks similar to the AK-74M's and even now sells an actual AK-74M stocked rifle.

redstategunnut
December 30, 2010, 11:49 AM
Well, if you want a sight that works get the Aimpoint.

HKGuns
December 30, 2010, 12:29 PM
^^My EOTECH works just fine thanks very much.^^

Both are really good sights, buy the one with the reticle you prefer. The realistic odds of you ever needing to fire it in anger are really pretty small. (Unless, of course, this 12/21/2012 stuff is real!)

LinuxHack3r
December 30, 2010, 02:52 PM
Thanks guys for showing my things about how to put slings on AK's with folding stocks, I am going to try as hard as possible to apply this knowledge to my life over the next week or so. On another note, I'll probably just go to Midway and buy the first optic I see and be happy with it.

/s

I seemingly just fell in love with the ACOG optics. I figure the 3x will aid in shots greater than say 100 yards. So I guess this question comes up:

What is the effective "range" of an Aimpoint? I don't really see myself making shots with an AR over 300 yards or so. I'll find a different gun to do that. I was thinking for the difference between the ACOG and the Aimpoint in price, I could buy a Surefire and mount it. So here is what I am now wondering:

Personal experience's only, who have/used to have an ACOG similiar to the one above mounted on an AR? Are you happy with it? Did you feel the price was worth it? The particular ACOG (one of them) I played with locally was very easy to see, even when being in a somewhat dark area looking into sunlight. I imagine over the course of a decade and a half or less the reticle will not show up as well. And who has experience with a 3x ACOG using it BAC method up close and personal? Does it leave you wanting an Aimpoint or EOTech, or do the benifits of the 3x far outweigh the negatives? Is it easier to take an Aimpoint to a farther distance than it is to take an ACOG to a shorter?

Let's stay on topic if we can here....

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

Motorcopm4
December 30, 2010, 03:43 PM
I only use a CQB rifle up to 25yds for close work and a Aimpoint works for me , personal preference. I had an old Eotech that water got in the battery cover but I think Eotech fixed that with the new ones. The Aimpoint is more rugged IMO

theinvisibleheart
December 30, 2010, 04:19 PM
once you use magnifiers(to see further target up close).

For close in work, EOTech type sight is the fastest, followed by LED type Aimpoint sight, and then, ACOG.

I think the high price of ACOG is due to legacy advantage. They were in the market way before either EOTech/Aimpoint.

For close quarter rifle/carbine, I don't see much sense in having .223 BDC cam.

I got the impression that you are in more for looks than function.

In that case, take a poll on which sight setup looks the coolest and get the one that other people vote as being the most cool.

Stevie-Ray
December 30, 2010, 04:55 PM
Well, if you have deep pockets you can do both. Here's the ACOG with the aforementioned RMR mounted on top. ACOG/RMR (http://www.opticsplanet.net/trijicon-acog-4x32-riflescope-with-center-illuminated-amber-crosshair-and-4-0-moa-rmr.html)

LinuxHack3r
December 30, 2010, 04:58 PM
I got the impression that you are in more for looks than function.
Where did you manage to find that assumption? Sure, if I had the option of trying the three sights on my carbine. That'd help a lot. But as I'm asking specific questions that you do not seem to have the answer to, but instead take the conversation on endless tangents. For the record, it seems it is you that is concerned with exactly how the reticle on your EOTech looks. Somehow I fail to see how being concerned with whether a 3x is acceptable for short range shooting relates to how a device looks. YOU like your EOTech, I get it. We all get it. However, the consensus of the entire internet is that although they are great sights, they do not hold up as well to abuse as the Aimpoint. I have read this exact consensus on several different forums and websites. I do not exactly have the money to buy something that I may turnaround and decide to go with the other brand because of reliability issues.


Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

milo-2
December 31, 2010, 08:58 AM
Linux, I think your going to need to consult Dr. Phil after this.
Seriously, have you looked at just low power scopes. No one here seems to have mentioned flashlights, because you can't shoot what can't see, and everyone knows you need that surefire right next to your Colt.
I probably agree the EOTech is the fastest, if you are walking around with your cheek welded to the gun. But target acquisition is the key, and there's alot of variables here. I had a leupold 1.75x6, heavy duplex scope mounted on a Colt with an A2 stock, extended butt pad, it was by far the fastest setup for me, and I didn't have to adjust the brightness setting. It is the same gun that I use the aimpoint on now. The aimpoint sighted in 1-1/2" high at 50yrds puts it deadnuts at 200yrds. Hitting a regulation size NRA sihlouette at 300yrds, no problem with correct holdover. For most of the time, a leupold mark 4, 1.5x5, illuminated special purpose reticle sits on the gun, because I like to shoot it at greater distances.
Have you checked www.swfa.com , you can get on their "sample list", great buys on mostly slightly used scopes. I would really like to see you do the right thing and buy the aimpoint.
Mine is just sitting in my safe, and will for a long time, if you get the hint.
Mail me personely, I'll make you a deal.
I've reloaded 4000 223rds in the last month, I have 4200 more to go this winter so we can shoot when the weather gets warmer, I have some insight as to what works.

LinuxHack3r
December 31, 2010, 09:47 AM
@Milo

I love the ACOG. Someday I will get one for sure. Maybe not for this weapon even. I have pretty much decided on the Aimpoint, now I'm just trying to figure out whether to get the CompM3 or the CompM4. Part of me wants the M4, but the other half knows I'll be happy with the M3. I guess that simple fact it uses AA batteries is a huge plus for me though, so I do sorta want to spend that little extra. However, I noticed, via the Aimpoint site, that the CompM4 adjustments aren't as fine.I believe it is 1" at 80 yards. I suppose it could be said that the CompM4's adjustments are 4/5 as good as the CompM3's? So, I realize that that factor isn't going to affect a setup using a 2MOA dot that greatly, but it is just interesting as to why they would have changed something from the M3 to the M4.

Also, let it be known that one of the reasons I sorta decided on the Aimpoint was I realized for the difference between the Aimpoint, I can put a very nice Surefire on the gun. Good thing I know a little about Surefires;)

theinvisibleheart
December 31, 2010, 02:58 PM
Quote:
I got the impression that you are in more for looks than function.
Where did you manage to find that assumption? Sure, if I had the option of


Obviously on an online forum, the only way I can get such an impression is by reading your posts, something which you seem not to be doing, at least regarding what I wrote, LOL. Quotes such as the following might give a hint, LOL:

QUOTE by LinuxHack3r: Right now I'm really liking the looks of this one(ACOG link).


specific questions that you do not seem to have the answer to, but instead take the conversation on endless tangents. For the record, it seems it is you that is concerned with exactly how the reticle on your EOTech looks.


If you actually read my posts, you would have found out that I already answered it, LOL.

QUOTE by theinvisibleheart: it's not as fast as holo/head-up display lighted by laser diode like EOTech, but once you use it all the time, you'll get used to it.



Somehow I fail to see how being concerned with whether a 3x is acceptable for short range shooting relates to how a device looks. YOU like your EOTech, I get it. We all get it.


As for liking/recommending EOTech, you OBVIOUSLY haven't read the following post:

QUOTE by theinvisibleheart: I'm not advocating the company or the product EOTech but the technology(holo/head-up display+laser diode) behind it.



However, the consensus of the entire internet is that although they are great sights, they do not hold up as well to abuse as the


I would take what people write on internet with a very healthy dose of skepticism. Just on this thread alone, you can see the following dubious assertions(both explicit and implicit):

Various assertions in this thread:
1. EOTech's reticle is blurry
2. EOTech control is difficult/complex/clumsy to use(actual quote: it is comical at best watching them trying to adjust those things(EOTech controls) at the range)
3. shutting down EOTech is difficult/complex(actual quote: just shuting one off is a pain)
4. EOTech will fail on an UltiMak rail after couple of magazines(actual quote by Sturmgewehre: if you put an EOTech on an Ultimak rail, it will shut down after a couple of magazines due to heat)
5. screen size/FOV of EOTech would be irrelevant if you don't use NVD and if you keep both eyes open(actual quote by Sturmgewehre: if you're using both eyes open as you should, the screen size will be mostly irrelevant)
6. left sling/right folding stock/offset VFG on an AK setup causes problem in small arms training class(actual quote by Sturmgewehre: take a rifle course with your AK setup the way it is and you'll likely see the issue)
7. testing 1 or 2 product sample out of thousands is representative of general population(Sturmgewehre's claim that product testing via testing 1-2 sample by shooting 500/week is a good way to test).

Counter-assertions:
1. Side by side photos shows that EOTech's reticle is LESS BLURRY than that of Aimpoint or ACOG.
2. To turn it on, just press the "UP" arrow. To adjust the illumination level, press the "UP" arrow until you get the desired level of brightness.
3. To turn off EOTech, press "UP" and "DOWN" arrow simultaneously.
4. Large FOV on EOTech is a major advantage for most users, while smaller FOV on ACOG/Aimpoint isn't, even with both eyes open.
5. Sling setup on the AK with working EOTech on forward gas tube mount is very similar to ones utilized on HK UMP/FNFAL para/etc.
6. Sampling size of 1-2 samples is never adequate(basic statistic).


That said, EOTech which uses alkaline batteries do have weaknesses due to limitations of alkaline battery themselves: alkalines do leak if you subject it to deep discharging, high heat, etc. But it's a relatively simple matter to swap a fresh set of AA batteries...people do it all the time in Maglites/alkaline flashlight, LOL! Not only that, AA are much more ubiquitous than lithium batteries. BTW, there are EOTech models that uses lithium battery instead, LOL.


Aimpoint. I have read this exact consensus on several different forums and websites. I do not exactly have the money to buy something that I may turnaround and decide to go with the other brand because of reliability issues.


Both Aimpoint and EOTech comes with 2 year warranty. Trijicon ACOG's warranty is limited lifetime, if I'm not mistaken. FWIW, all 3 companies have repair department because all 3 RDO can and do break down.

BTW, if you still don't get it, I'm not recommending EOTech brand. I'm recommending the underlying technology for close quarter shooting, LOL.

You seem to be obsessed with brand name(Colt, Surefire, ACOG, etc.). If you think about it, Detroit(Ford/Chrysler/GM) is no longer the top dog in cars. Product dominance, be it with cars or small arms/accessories doesn't always depend on brand.

Eventually, newcomers will come with better way of doing things for less, just like it happened with cars(Detroit market share being overtaken by Japanese, while now Japanese are struggling against the Koreans).

That said, Surefire/Detroit/Aimpoint/EOTech did start a revolution in their respective product arena(tactical light, cars, LED RDO, holo/h-up RDO).

Good shooting! Happy New Year.

LinuxHack3r
December 31, 2010, 04:18 PM
Ok, I see where you assumed I was talking about appearances, that is my mistake. However, when I say I like the "looks" of something, I mean that I like the overall function of something based on what I've read. I have not had the opportunity to field test any of these devices. So I have to go by what I read and what others tell me. To me, that is the "looks" of things. Sorry for the confusion.

I do like namebrand stuff. I'm not going to lie. I shell out a pretty penny on everything too. So far I've been more than joyful to spend that pretty penny. I have been incredibly satisfied with the four Surefire's I've already bought, plus the one I bought for my Father. I agree there may also be good alternatives to ACOG/Aimpoint/EOTech, but:

1) I do not know what they are, simply because the above ARE the product recognition.

2) I do still believe the above to be the best for each of their class. When I'm buying something, if affordable, I want it to be the best.

Honestly, if it were possible (and I assume it will be someday due to patents expiring) I would love to buy an Aimpoint/EOTech combo. I think it is undeniable that the Aimpoint's are more rugged, and while the EOTech's "may" be faster, they are not quiet what I"m looking for (long term possible without a lot of battery replacement). If say Aimpoint were to incorporate some EOTech features, basically "melting" the two together, to me that would be a wonderful product.

HKGuns
December 31, 2010, 04:41 PM
I think it is undeniable that the Aimpoint's are more rugged, and while the EOTech's "may" be faster, they are not quiet what I"m looking for (long term possible without a lot of battery replacement).

Then why did you ask a question you already knew the answer to, or are you just trolling for an argument? It is your post and you're arguing with people responding to YOUR question. Smells funny here.

tAKticool
December 31, 2010, 05:01 PM
You know Invisible Heart really showed us a lot, if not even in his posts, regardless of your opinion that picture showed me a WHOLE LOT...

I am a huge name brand hewer, a gear queer, mall ninja, whatever.

I'm 29 years old, look like i'm maybe 16 yrs old, 5'8", 150 lbs if I've eaten a months worth of cupcakes and cookies and pizza and soda etc. And I like to have fun etc. and have nice stuff. Sure ad I admit it

I love Love LOVE Trijicon. Love the company love the quality etc. I got the night sights for my brand new (at the time) Glock 23 THE DAY AFTER the "Jesus [praise his name!!!] Rifles" thing came out... but thats really all I can afford. "Someday I will own an ACOG for sure!"" whoever posted that, good on ya. The only ACOG I would really be satisfied ewith is the one with exactly the reticle I want, with exactly the right look,. and exactly that RMR thing on top.

$1,500-$2,300. fFOR THE ACOG.

Not lkely for me. Love to, but love to be sane more.

I have two BRAND NEW Aimpoint Micros from that sale. that was like a Gift of God from our Lord to me. I always have simply had it in my brain LOVE Aimpoints,... and I always have Hated EOTech. Now in my mind it just goes that way. And really I could probably never afford a micro or a M4 ETC. so I was looking at the cheap one, the Comp C3? I thinkl. iALMOST bought a used 512 Eotech right before Christmas, I had $320 and he was FIRM on $350 after months of no one even showing interest. lets just say my patience paid off... i now own TWO BRAND NEW Aimpoint Micros... HAHA Beeotch! BUT

That picture shows clearly how limited that Trijicon reticle really really is vs. the AMAZING EOtech reticle. I aint gotta like it but its truth. Clearly CQB advantage- HUGE Eotech reticle,,, that Trijicon looks like if you own it u betterb e intereste in precision "minisnipes..."

Now none of this is anything but my humnle opinion, bt I for one like to post the fact that I can admit when my opinios are wrong, and you know you learn something all the time right?

rugerfreak
December 31, 2010, 05:08 PM
The Aimpoint warranty is 10 years for us average people.

http://www.aimpoint.com/us/support/warranty/

LinuxHack3r
December 31, 2010, 05:39 PM
Then why did you ask a question you already knew the answer to, or are you just trolling for an argument? It is your post and you're arguing with people responding to YOUR question. Smells funny here.

Because last time I checked I discovered I'm allowed a change of opinion. Before I started this post I was honestly leaning towards the EOTech. See for yourself:

There are things about the Aimpoint's that I like:

Battery Life
Durability (Waterproof, etc)

However, the EOTech's:

Slightly cheaper
Made in US
Versatility in reticles (I like the idea of having "range dots" for the 5.56 caliber rifle)
Mounts directly to rifle without "mount"
"Big dot" 65MOA for fast close range acquisition.
1MOA smaller dot

However, after realizing a bit about how different the battery performance is, how the Aimpoint's have a slight better reputation for more durability, and also handling them myself, I think I decided the Aimpoint was more for me. And hell, when everyone else is arguing why cannot the OP jump in on it too?

theinvisibleheart
January 1, 2011, 01:24 PM
I think it is undeniable that the Aimpoint's are more rugged


You do REALIZE that most of the so called "problems" with EOTech is due to operator error, don't you?

Most of the problem would go away if the users did 3 things, something which should be SOP if they are using ANY BATTERY POWERED DEVICES:

1. turn off the unit when you are done.
2. make sure the battery is in working order since batteries do go bad.
3. make sure that when they put in new battery, to seal shut tight the battery compartment.

It's like making sure that your car has enough gas when you start it, be it gas guzzler like Ford F150 or super gas efficient vehicle like Prius. Or at least I hope so. When I start the vehicle I'm driving, I always make sure it has enough gas.

You do know that even Surefire units can malfunction if the batteries run out or batteries go bad, or if the battery compartment was not closed properly in wet weather, don't you?

Also, you do KNOW that EOTech/EOTech type sights can function with cracked/broken glass unlike ACOG or Aimpoint, don't you, like shown here:

http://i1204.photobucket.com/albums/bb410/dydacupuncture/EOTech/damaged-HWS-reticleMedium.jpg

Also, you do know that EOTech has being successfully used in .30 caliber GPMG(General Purpose Machine Gun) like shown here on MG3, despite claims that it doesn't work on AK on forward mount?

http://i1204.photobucket.com/albums/bb410/dydacupuncture/EOTech/MG3-EOTECHMedium.jpg

Also, you do know that EOTech has also being used by combat swimmers despite internet consensus, don't you? Like shown here:

http://i1204.photobucket.com/albums/bb410/dydacupuncture/EOTech/German-Kampfschwimmer-EOTechMedium.jpg

FWIW, EOTech has being used by Polish GROM, Malaysian PASKAU, Jordanian SF, etc. despite the internet consensus, LOL.

The dubious assertions that I pointed in previous post was incomplete, and that's just in this ONE THREAD, not in the "Art of Rifle" subforum, LOL.

I mean, if the internet thread is a reliable indicator, SUPER SHOOTERS/WARRIORS/RIFLE CLASS STUDENTS inhabiting the internet space must know something that real world military/security/competitive shooters worldwide such as GROM/PASKAU/Poles/etc. in Europe/Asia/etc. doesn't know, LOL.

theinvisibleheart
January 1, 2011, 01:37 PM
Honestly, if it were possible (and I assume it will be someday due to patents expiring) I would love to buy an Aimpoint/EOTech combo.

I think it is undeniable that the Aimpoint's are more rugged, and while the EOTech's "may" be faster, they are not quiet what I"m looking for (long term possible without a lot of battery replacement).

If say Aimpoint were to incorporate some EOTech features, basically "melting" the two together, to me that would be a wonderful product.


it doesn't make sense (functionally speaking) to combine the two, either in one packet or side-by-side since they occupy the same functional niche.

High magnification ACOG+either Aimpoint or EOTech MIGHT make sense, but would be too cumbersome for most people. Also, once you use magnifier with either Aimpoint or EOTech, you no longer need ACOG.

As for lot of battery replacement for EOTech, you DO REALIZE that EOTech last 1,000+ hours IF IT'S NOT TURNED OFF, don't you?

Assuming you use it 10 HOURS A DAY and THEN TURN IT OFF, that's MORE THAN 100 DAYS OF CONTINUOUS OPERATIONAL USAGE.

Pressing the "UP" and "DOWN" arrow simultaneously to turn it off is not exactly difficult, at least for most users.

For most people, be it military, security, competition, or just plain plinking, 100+ days of continuous usage is more than enough, or at least I hope so, unless you shoot 500/500K daily 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days/year, LOL.

But that's only in virtual internet world, LOL.

Bartholomew Roberts
January 1, 2011, 01:55 PM
I mean, if the internet thread is a reliable indicator, SUPER SHOOTERS/WARRIORS/RIFLE CLASS STUDENTS inhabiting the internet space must know something that military/security/competitive shooters worldwide such as GROM/PASKAU/Poles/etc. in Europe/Asia/etc. doesn't know, LOL.

You pick the tool to fit the job. This argument is akin to saying because Navy SEALs use swim fins, you should keep a set of swim fins next to your rifle - or do you think you know more than a Navy SEAL? Unless you understand what requirements led <insert elite operator of choice here> to choose a certain piece of gear, mentioning that they use it is useless in making an informed decision.

I couldn't begin to tell you why GROM uses an Eotech; but I can sure tell you why I don't. When GROM and I have the same needs, I'll start paying more attention to what they buy.

As to the 3x ACOG, I've used the TA11 for years. It is the big brother to the TA33 sight you are looking at. It is going to be measurably slower in close-in shooting, particularly if you or the target are moving. It will be less flexible at awkward non-traditional shooting positions because it requires a solid cheek weld. On the plus side, the ACOG is even more bombproof than the Aimpoint and the magnification is a big help with target ID.

As far as BAC, you can use this with any sight where you keep both eyes open - not just ACOGs. With magnified sights where you use the weak eye view to speed your shot, you get a different point of impact due to the changed sight geometry. It takes 5 min to show someone this; but several hours to explain it in writing.

theinvisibleheart
January 1, 2011, 02:21 PM
Quote:
I mean, if the internet thread is a reliable indicator, SUPER SHOOTERS/WARRIORS/RIFLE CLASS STUDENTS inhabiting the internet space must know something that military/security/competitive shooters worldwide such as GROM/PASKAU/Poles/etc. in Europe/Asia/etc. doesn't know, LOL.
You pick the tool to fit the job. This argument is akin to saying because Navy SEALs use swim fins, you should keep a set of swim fins next to your rifle - or do you think you know more than a Navy SEAL? Unless you understand what requirements led <insert elite operator of choice here> to choose a certain piece of gear, mentioning that they use it is useless in making an informed decision.

I couldn't begin to tell you why GROM uses an Eotech; but I can sure tell you why I don't. When GROM and I have the same needs, I'll start paying more attention to what they buy.

As to the 3x ACOG, I've used the TA11 for years. It is the big brother to the TA33 sight you are looking at. It is going to be measurably slower in close-in shooting, particularly if you or the target are moving. It will be less flexible at awkward non-traditional shooting positions because it requires a solid cheek weld. On the plus side, the ACOG is even more bombproof than the Aimpoint and the magnification is a big help with target ID.

As far as BAC, you can use this with any sight where you keep both eyes open - not just ACOGs. With magnified sights where you use the weak eye view to speed your shot, you get a different point of impact due to the changed sight geometry. It takes 5 min to show someone this; but several hours to explain it in writing.


1. I'm not saying the needs are the same, but that worldwide, the so called internet consensus that EOTech are not rugged, doesn't hold when it's used worldwide in extreme heat/wet weather/high altitude/etc. without functional problem.

In case people aren't aware, MG3 is a belt fed .30cal machine gun with quick detach barrel since the barrel gets so hot. If EOTech works on that setup, what are the odds that EOTech won't work on forward mount on an AK?

High? Low? Or no correlation?


2. BAC is very simple to explain. Your brain tries to merge the visual image from left and right eyes. That's why people get headache if the natural acuity b/w left and right eyes are too different(e.g. extreme hyperopia in one eye and extreme myopia in the other eye), and it's also how limited range stereopsis works.


3. 3X ACOG
Upper body indexing becomes more critical with 3X ACOG.

What this means in plain English is that you need to practice with the long arm/optic to the point, whenever you see a potential target, you bring the long arm/optic to your LOS(Line Of Sight) CONSISTENTLY EVERY TIME.

ONLY THE UPPER body becomes just the shooting platform and lower doesn't matter, whether you are squatting/kneeling/etc. as long as the upper body indexing of the long arm/optic combo is consistent.

That's why if you use the 3X ACOG setup all the time and practice with it, you will get used to it, even for close quarter shooting. Off course, if you put the same time/effort into a setup with EOTech, for close quarter shooting, you would get higher payoff, LOL.


4. BAC correction for Bartholomew Roberts
Usu., for most people, BAC with any optics becomes DIFFICULT once magnification exceeds the range of 1.5X-2.5X. The reason is that higher the magnification, it becomes increasingly difficult for the brain to merge magnified sight picture and unmagnified one.

Here's a simple experiment to try if you have access to a variable scope, be it 3-9X or 4-14X.

Try BAC with setting set at 3X and crank it all the way up to 9X/14X and see how much more difficult it gets.

Then try BAC with 1.5X and 2.5X magnification, and see how easy it is.

5RWill
January 1, 2011, 02:27 PM
I've never read that the EOtech isn't rugged but just thats its not as rugged as the Aimpoint which is generally true. As for the blurry reticle i stand by that statement of the one i have looked through. Mabe it was a faulty optic? Idk regardless it turned me away from the sight.

Jimro
January 1, 2011, 03:43 PM
Here is a great alternative to an ACOG. http://swfa.com/Burris-3x32-AR-332-Tactical-Sight-P12619.aspx

Slightly different BDC reticle, does take batteries, but if the batteries go out you still have a black reticle. Battery life is more than 200 hours on highest illumination, on par with other illuminated scopes.

I know the ACOG is touted as "battery free" but for the money I'd get the Burris. An illuminated reticle is plenty useful, and if you only turn it on when you actually need illumination you can get years of service from the Burris.

Jimro

Tomac
January 1, 2011, 05:22 PM
My turn to beat the dead horse...
I've owned and used the Eotech 512 & 517 and the Aimpoint M2, ML3, M4, M4s, C3 (best budget Aimpoint, IMHO), Micro H1 & T1.

No doubt about it, the Aimpoints have fewer reported problems and insane battery life. If I jumped out of helicopters for a living I'd have an Aimpoint.

However, during carbine classes I found the Eotech's circle-dot reticle to be faster to acquire/use than the Aimpoint's simple dot (YMMV) & the bottom of the circle makes a great aiming point when shooting close-in and POA/POI don't yet coincide. This is very apparent when shooting from awkward positions w/sloppy cheekweld.

While I prefer the Aimpoint's rotary switch for speed of adjustment, a single push on either of the Eotech's control buttons turns it on at a brightness well-suited for lowlight use w/or w/o a taclight (the most likely HD situation). Three pushes on the "down" button sets it at what I feel is the "perfect" lowlight level for my use and 5 pushes on the "up" button does the same for daylight use.

Both are combat-proven in the sandbox and I would feel comfortable w/either for HD.

Regarding the common "blurry reticle" complaint w/the Eotech, that's usually caused by looking at the reticle itself instead of focusing on your target downrange.

Both Aimpoints and Eotechs have their strengths/weaknesses, pick the one that best suits your particular needs and pocketbook.
Tomac

ETA: While not meant to disparage Aimpoints, I've had more problems w/Aimpoints (1; a NIB M4s w/a bad rheostat) than I've had w/Eotechs (0).

Wrath of Firepower
January 1, 2011, 08:03 PM
Having not yet put an optic for my AR-15, can I conclude that the Aimpoints an EOtechs are primarily for shots less than 100 yds. And what or how do the magnifiers work with the Aimponit and EOtech?

Bartholomew Roberts
January 1, 2011, 10:45 PM
1. I'm not saying the needs are the same, but that worldwide, the so called internet consensus that EOTech are not rugged, doesn't hold when it's used worldwide in extreme heat/wet weather/high altitude/etc. without functional problem.

This isn't a coherent sentence, so I am not sure what your point is. I'm guessing that your general point is that the Eotech isn't a bad sight because it is used by various militaries. My point to you is that unless you understand why they chose the Eotech instead of some other option, it doesn't really help the OP evaluate whether the Eotech is right for him.

4. BAC correction for Bartholomew Roberts
Usu., for most people, BAC with any optics becomes DIFFICULT once magnification exceeds the range of 1.5X-2.5X. The reason is that higher the magnification, it becomes increasingly difficult for the brain to merge magnified sight picture and unmagnified one.

Well, I can't speak as to how most people see things or what most people can use optically; but that hasn't been my experience and I haven't noticed a majority of the people using the ACOG having that experience.

Then again, I don't find the field of view to be an advantage in a 1x optic either and apparently we disagree on that as well.

Then try BAC with 1.5X and 2.5X magnification, and see how easy it is.

I've been using a TA11 ACOG on my own rifle since 2002. I've also used the TA31 and TA01, so I'm pretty familiar with BAC, Occluded Eye Gunsights, etc.

You have to realize that ACOG's technology is the oldest of 3 RDO/reflex sight(I believe they started in 1980s while EOTech/holo,h-up based on public domain research, is the newest).


The ACOG isn't a Reflex/RDS sight at all. It has an etched reticle instead of a projected reticle and it is magnified.

Having not yet put an optic for my AR-15, can I conclude that the Aimpoints an EOtechs are primarily for shots less than 100 yds.

The Aimpoints/Eotechs/various reflex style sights have their biggest advantage at ranges of less than 50yds; but they are still quite versatile for a long ways past that. Silhouettes are doable at 400yds on the range with either sight.

theinvisibleheart
January 3, 2011, 11:19 AM
1. I'm not saying the needs are the same, but that worldwide, the so called internet consensus that EOTech are not rugged, doesn't hold when it's used worldwide in extreme heat/wet weather/high altitude/etc. without functional problem.

This isn't a coherent sentence, so I am not sure what your point is. I'm guessing that your general point is that the Eotech isn't a bad sight because it is used by various militaries. My point to you is that unless you understand why they chose the Eotech instead of some other option, it doesn't really help the OP evaluate whether the Eotech is right for him.


I apologize for poor English. What I meant is that you don't need to know the full specification and reason why someone or some unit choose a particular piece of hardware or equipment to draw a reasonable inference.

One should be able to derive at least some piece of information from the fact that said piece of equipment works in use in diverse environment(Poland, Malaysia, Middle East, Europe, Afghanistan, etc.) by units that train at normal or above normal use.

One should be able to draw some degree of inference about EOTech's ability to handle heat and recoil on .223/5.45/7.62x39 platform when it's used on .30cal beltfed GPMG successfully.

Or at least, I hope so, LOL.


Quote:
4. BAC correction for Bartholomew Roberts
Usu., for most people, BAC with any optics becomes DIFFICULT once magnification exceeds the range of 1.5X-2.5X. The reason is that higher the magnification, it becomes increasingly difficult for the brain to merge magnified sight picture and unmagnified one.
Well, I can't speak as to how most people see things or what most people can use optically; but that hasn't been my experience and I haven't noticed a majority of the people using the ACOG having that experience.

Then again, I don't find the field of view to be an advantage in a 1x optic either and apparently we disagree on that as well.

Quote:
Then try BAC with 1.5X and 2.5X magnification, and see how easy it is.
I've been using a TA11 ACOG on my own rifle since 2002. I've also used the TA31 and TA01, so I'm pretty familiar with BAC, Occluded Eye Gunsights, etc.


According to Trijicon(if you call their customer service at 800.338.0563), BAC gets more difficult higher the magnification due to increasing image differences b/w non-shooting and shooting eyes as the brain tries to merge the two.

A simple experiment to verify this would be to try BAC with 1.5X and 36X fixed power scope(keep both eyes open and try to merge the image b/w shooting and non-shooting eye.


Quote:
You have to realize that ACOG's technology is the oldest of 3 RDO/reflex sight(I believe they started in 1980s while EOTech/holo,h-up based on public domain research, is the newest).
The ACOG isn't a Reflex/RDS sight at all. It has an etched reticle instead of a projected reticle and it is magnified.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrath
Having not yet put an optic for my AR-15, can I conclude that the Aimpoints an EOtechs are primarily for shots less than 100 yds.
The Aimpoints/Eotechs/various reflex style sights have their biggest advantage at ranges of less than 50yds; but they are still quite versatile for a long ways past that. Silhouettes are doable at 400yds on the range with either sight.


Correct. Appreciate the correction. I meant RDO/reflex sight loosely but appreciate your edification.

theinvisibleheart
January 3, 2011, 11:29 AM
never used so no experiences, but specs/price LOOK GOOD, LOL!

http://www.mylucidgear.com/

http://i1204.photobucket.com/albums/bb410/dydacupuncture/HD7SpecsMedium.png

http://i1204.photobucket.com/albums/bb410/dydacupuncture/HD75Medium.png

http://i1204.photobucket.com/albums/bb410/dydacupuncture/HD73Medium.png

LinuxHack3r
January 3, 2011, 01:46 PM
So, just placed an order for a CompM3. Bought it from:

SWFA.com

Not the cheapest, but I simply searched Google Shopping for the CompM3, found the cheapest legitimate sale, and SWFA.com priced matched it 110% of the difference...win win! Also, I'm not sure if it is how the Aimpoint's come, but I also got a free extra battery and "extra battery holder compartment thing". It made me feel good, whether that is how they come from everyone that is a dealer, I don't know.

Got the Larue Tactical 150 mount, the one with the lever.

I just hope these both come on the same day or else I'm going to drive myself mad eyeing one or the other!

They way I see it, as good as the quick detach levers are supposed to hold zero, I will just get me an ACOG on a similiar mount, and switch them out as desired. I literally cannot wait!

So question: The batteries the CompM3 take, I wonder if they boast roughly a 10 shelf life? And I wonder if there are any "tricks" to even longer term storage?

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

Bartholomew Roberts
January 3, 2011, 02:44 PM
One should be able to derive at least some piece of information from the fact that said piece of equipment works in use in diverse environment(Poland, Malaysia, Middle East, Europe, Afghanistan, etc.) by units that train at normal or above normal use.

You would think that, and I would agree that as a general rule it probably holds true. Still, there are always exceptions to the rule. Remember when the HK Advanced Reliability Magazine for the M16 was the new hotness at $60 a pop and everyone had to have one? How many years was it until TACOM cancelled the contract for HK mags and NSWC put out a warning about their use?

It goes to show that while you can probably draw an inference about use, you aren't always safe in doing so.

theinvisibleheart
January 3, 2011, 02:54 PM
Quote:
One should be able to derive at least some piece of information from the fact that said piece of equipment works in use in diverse environment(Poland, Malaysia, Middle East, Europe, Afghanistan, etc.) by units that train at normal or above normal use.
You would think that, and I would agree that as a general rule it probably holds true. Still, there are always exceptions to the rule. Remember when the HK Advanced Reliability Magazine for the M16 was the new hotness at $60 a pop and everyone had to have one? How many years was it until TACOM cancelled the contract for HK mags and NSWC put out a warning about their use?

It goes to show that while you can probably draw an inference about use, you aren't always safe in doing so.


HK mag problem sound like it was due to inadequate beta testing and if so, is not the same thing.

Your point would be true for inference of the following type: X optic worked OK on .30cal so should work on airgun(not true since recoil mechanism is different).

If optic X worked on belt fed .30 on full auto, odds favor it working in lower caliber utilizing same recoil type.

If optic X is used world wide in LARGE NUMBERS by high shooting units/shooters in diverse and highly adverse condition, then odds are that it works, esp. since it's WAY BEYOND ANY BETA TESTING STAGE, LOL.

Bartholomew Roberts
January 3, 2011, 05:19 PM
If optic X is used world wide in LARGE NUMBERS by high shooting units/shooters in diverse and highly adverse condition, then odds are that it works, esp. since it's WAY BEYOND ANY BETA TESTING STAGE, LOL.

Is it? I think the Eotech 553/SU-231 is on Revision F now - which makes about 7 revisions since it was adopted. Some of those may be adding new and desired features as opposed to solving problems; but when you compare it to the M68 CCO (2 revisions since introduction), the Eotech appears to be revised significantly more often than the M68. Is that a feature or a bug?

And Revision F has only been in service since February 2010, so it isn't as if it has a long track record just yet.

And again, I still don't know why the Eotech is used - maybe the units use weapon mounted NODS with the sight and they are willing to compromise 5% reliability (<- random number I made up) for the advantages the Eotech has there. That might make good sense for them; but since I don't use weapon mounted NODS, I may not be interested in that same compromise.

In any case, I think we have both made our points and are talking in circles now. My main points:

1. There are exceptions to every rule re: HK mags
2. You choose a tool based on what you need to do; not on what HSLD unit uses it (unless you happen to do the same thing said HSLD unit does).

Justin.Burdette
January 3, 2011, 05:24 PM
lots of guys in my unit in afghanistan swear by the eotech ive looked into them alot they got a micro version out now but i opted for an acog as my personal sight but id go with the eotech

HKGuns
January 3, 2011, 10:01 PM
None of the above....Just mount one of these puppies on your AR and you'll be good for day OR night.
Check out the real solution to this thread (http://www.prc68.com/I/TVS2.shtml)

LinuxHack3r
January 4, 2011, 10:44 AM
Hopefully a few questions to ease the pain as I wait:|

1) How does the "extended battery module" work? Pic please?

2) How does the "waterproof storage" under the Larue mount work? Does it work with the CompM3 or the CR123 that the CompM2 uses (the sight the mount was originally designed for, I believe)? Pic please?

I'm now looking up BUIS. Troy looks good to me....opinions? Perhaps I should new thread it;)

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

Bartholomew Roberts
January 4, 2011, 11:10 AM
1) How does the "extended battery module" work? Pic please?

It just extends the battery compartment so you can stick another battery in there. Nothing super fancy - google "Aimpoint double battery" and you'll find lots of pictures.

2) How does the "waterproof storage" under the Larue mount work? Does it work with the CompM3 or the CR123 that the CompM2 uses (the sight the mount was originally designed for, I believe)? Pic please?

http://www.laruetactical.com/pics/LT150Mount/LT150Mount.htm

The M2 and M3 Aimpoints use a Lithium 1/3N battery. The storage will only work with those batteries.

LinuxHack3r
January 4, 2011, 11:54 AM
Oh, I see! For some reason I was under the assumption that the CompM2 used CR123's. I think I must have saw somewhere that it uses 3V batteries and assumed it was the CR123. So that makes a lot of sense now. Thanks!

theinvisibleheart
January 4, 2011, 01:14 PM
Quote:
If optic X is used world wide in LARGE NUMBERS by high shooting units/shooters in diverse and highly adverse condition, then odds are that it works, esp. since it's WAY BEYOND ANY BETA TESTING STAGE, LOL.
Is it? I think the Eotech 553/SU-231 is on Revision F now - which makes about 7 revisions since it was adopted. Some of those may be adding new and desired features as opposed to solving problems; but when you compare it to the M68 CCO (2 revisions since introduction), the Eotech appears to be revised significantly more often than the M68. Is that a feature or a bug?


Frequency of revision of product model depends on several factors, foremost among which are:
- rate of technological innovation
- degree of competition from other makers of competing products
- market size and demand
- duration of product life cycle
- actual degree of change(revisions could be minor or major)
- competitive ability of the firm to create new revisions quickly

Product life cycle in general are getting shorter, even outside of electronics due to faster prototyping and manufacturing, even when extended to non-electronic arena.

I believe this is covered in basic textbook on product lifecycle/engineering development, LOL.



And Revision F has only been in service since February 2010, so it isn't as if it has a long track record just yet.

And again, I still don't know why the Eotech is used - maybe the units use weapon mounted NODS with the sight and they are willing to compromise 5% reliability (<- random number I made up) for the advantages the Eotech has there. That might make good sense for them; but since I don't use weapon mounted NODS, I may not be interested in that same compromise.

In any case, I think we have both made our points and are talking in circles now. My main points:

1. There are exceptions to every rule re: HK mags
2. You choose a tool based on what you need to do; not on what HSLD unit uses it (unless you happen to do the same thing said HSLD unit does).


It's only going in circle for you.

Most people or studies doesn't need to know why someone/some unit bought it. They just need to know enough to extrapolate it for their own usage.

This is common sense for most people.

theinvisibleheart
January 4, 2011, 01:18 PM
Hopefully a few questions to ease the pain as I wait:|

1) How does the "extended battery module" work? Pic please?

2) How does the "waterproof storage" under the Larue mount work? Does it work with the CompM3 or the CR123 that the CompM2 uses (the sight the mount was originally designed for, I believe)? Pic please?

I'm now looking up BUIS. Troy looks good to me....opinions? Perhaps I should new thread it

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk


1. BUIS
I've used Troy BUIS and they work, but I've had friends who used cheaper UTG and they also worked(according to them). Another friend got plastic Magpul BUIS and they said that it also worked for them.

I've examined variety of BUIS and noticed that basic mechanism are very similar.

2. storage compartment
I've used older LaRue mount and storage compartment was only for lithium for Aimpoint(military model).

Bartholomew Roberts
January 4, 2011, 01:29 PM
Common sense eh? So in your sense of common sense, the two statements below aren't contradictory?

It's only going in circle for you.

Most people or studies doesn't need to know why someone/some unit bought it. .


They just need to know enough to extrapolate it for their own usage.

theinvisibleheart
January 4, 2011, 01:39 PM
Common sense eh? So in your sense of common sense, the two statements below aren't contradictory?


---Quote---
It's only going in circle for you.

Most people or studies doesn't need to know why someone/some unit bought it. .
---End Quote---


---Quote---
They just need to know enough to extrapolate it for their own usage.
---End Quote---
Go ---- yourself you little mouthbreather

If you look at field reliability r/p, it just tells you failure/malfunction info, not the precise reason why people bought it.

When you look at reliability studies, you need to field/ask the right(relevant) info/questions. You don't need to know the complete life history as to WHY they got it, LOL.

FWIW, people misuse equipment all the time(use it in ways not intended by their designers). It's part of product life cycle and yes, product do evolve in that way too.

LinuxHack3r
January 6, 2011, 02:29 PM
Wow, just wow!

Got the Aimpoint and mount today, took my time to install, AWESOME. The only thing I wish more is that the sight had .25 moa adjustments. But since it isn't intended necessarily to be taken out to much more that 2-3 yards, well I dare say that roughly 2-3" at those distances (with appropriate holdover) are more than adequate considering it is nonmagnified. I cannot wait to site this in (And last month we had an average of 33' F here). I'll be going ASAP. Also, unless someone says better, I think I'll buy some BUIS.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

5RWill
January 6, 2011, 03:08 PM
Linux, which aimpoint did you decide on? Also as for BUIS i got magpul and i'm happy with it. It's polymer but they're light and flip up extremely fast.

LinuxHack3r
January 6, 2011, 03:35 PM
CompM3. I got it for less that 470 shipped. Wonderful deal....check out my review of LaRue and SWFA.com in the retail deals and feedback section of this site.

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LinuxHack3r
January 6, 2011, 03:38 PM
And now my question is, is there a link to some sort of distance vs. Drop/rise graph for 5.56 out of the 16" AR? Something like at 25 (or maybe 50) dead on = high at 100 and dead on at 200? Yards of course for all.

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theinvisibleheart
January 11, 2011, 02:35 PM
BTW, the LED dot size of Trijicon's RMR ranges from 4 to 13MOA!

If you thought the dot size of Aimpoint at 2-3MOA was too big for longer range shot(covers the whole target), RMR is even worse.

Trijicon's RMR spec sheet:

http://www.trijicon.com/pdfs/rmr.pdf

EOTech's ACTUAL reticle fineness is 1/4MOA, although they claim it to be 1MOA since people can't distinguish that finely.

Bartholomew Roberts
January 11, 2011, 02:49 PM
And now my question is, is there a link to some sort of distance vs. Drop/rise graph for 5.56 out of the 16" AR? Something like at 25 (or maybe 50) dead on = high at 100 and dead on at 200? Yards of course for all.

Download one of the many ballistics apps for your Droid and it can show you that chart. You just need to know muzzle velocity, height over bore (about 2.6" for an AR), and ballistic coefficient (most of the better programs will already have the ballistic coefficient and drag info).

As a rough rule of thumb, just zero at 50yds. This will put you with 2.6" of the point of aim from 0-225yds with a 16" barrel usually.

Father Time
January 11, 2011, 04:51 PM
I will only talk about the EoTech because I don't own an Aimpoint.

My Eotech 512 has preformed without fail for a while now.

Of course I'm not H.A.L.O. jumping into enemy controled sea's and swimming for a mile underwater before I use it.
I take good care of my stuff and do not intentionaly abuse anything I own.

However:

My EoTech has taken quite a bit of heat from being mounted on the Ultimak rail I have on my AK. It got so hot I couldn't touch the metal shield that protects the sight. And it countinued to work without a change in zero.

I bought the EoTech because I didn't want to shell out the beans for an Aimpoint but I didn't want it to break after a hundred rounds like some of the cheaper sights. The EoTech was a good value for the money.

It still works and is sitting in my closet right now. It isn't currently on any of my rifles but that is not due to any fault of the sight. I've just been wanting to shoot with my iron sights lately.