View Full Version : Kerr county Sheriff refuses to sign form 4

December 20, 2010, 01:17 PM
Just came from the Kerr county sheriff's office. Flat out refused to sign. "Never have, Never will" was the reply

I can't wait until the next election day

December 20, 2010, 07:56 PM
What's form 4?

ohen cepel
December 20, 2010, 07:58 PM
Go the trust route, he doesn't get a say then.

December 20, 2010, 08:12 PM
What's form 4?

ATF paperwork to transfer an NFA firearm from one party to another

December 20, 2010, 10:02 PM
Call the ATF. They have a procedure for cases like this. They accept signatures from the county DA, State Police Chief, State Attorney General.

David Hineline
December 20, 2010, 11:06 PM
The only thing keeping you from NFA ownership is quitting because one man said not.

There are other men, there are other homes in other counties, there are corporation and trust methods around the CLEO.

I would start by hooking up with a local dealer, and asking them who/where signs the forms, it just might be a place where you vacation and have a temp. residence there.

December 20, 2010, 11:06 PM
my stamps are on a trust. No need to hassle with CLEO signoff.

David Hineline
December 20, 2010, 11:13 PM
A quick Google search turned up this.

IIRC Any judge that can here feloney cases with a min. sentance of one year can sign the form. I've actually got one form 1 approved with a Texas constable's signature on it. The Shariff in Kerr county doesn't "belive civilians should have those sort of things".

After doing a lot of research on who could sign (didn't know about the trust rout at the time) I discovered that a Texas Constable met the qualifications. The initial form came back as denied because the ATF didn't like the constable authorization. I sent the ATF a two page request for reconsideration and outlined all the reasons I belived that a Texas Constable should be ok to sign. I also sent 117 pages of supporting documentation. Had the approved form 1 in two weeks.

Remember, the CLEO sign off exists for two purposes and two purposes only. 1) to insure that the photos and fingerprints being submitted are really of the person submitting the form 1; and 2) to make sure that you are not wanted for any outstanding warents or currently under invistagation. Cercy v. Furgason effectivly took out any liability on the CLEO should you turn out bad later.

You should be able to make a case that your magistrate can adaquitly fulfull the duties of the CLEO sign off.

Good Luck, barring no success look into forming a trust and bypass the CLEO.

December 21, 2010, 02:51 PM
I haven't give up on this. Currently exploring other options. Trust, other qualified person for signature, ect.

December 21, 2010, 03:53 PM
I can't believe someone doubts the word of a Texas sheriff!

December 22, 2010, 11:42 AM
Spoke to a lawyer today. Going the Trust route.

David Hineline
December 22, 2010, 01:58 PM
Up until now BATFE has just approved all trust applications for NFA firearms, they have never verified that the trust was set up in such a way as being a legal entity to own firearms. Now the BATFE is going to verify trusts are legally own firearms before approval, go back retroactively and review all past trusts all ready approved and rescind only time will tell. Make sure you lawyer has your ducks all in a row.

[Federal Register: December 15, 2010 (Volume 75, Number 240)]
[Page 78268]
From the Federal Register Online via GPO Access [wais.access.gpo.gov]



Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

[OMB Number 1140-NEW]

Agency Information Collection Activities: Proposed Collection;
Comments Requested

ACTION: 60-Day Notice of Information Collection Under Review: Letter
Requesting Supporting Documents Identifying a Legal Entity.


The Department of Justice (DOJ), Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco,
Firearms and Explosives (ATF), will be submitting the following
information collection request to the Office of Management and Budget
(OMB) for review and approval in accordance with the Paperwork
Reduction Act of 1995. This notice requests comments from the public
and affected agencies concerning the proposed information collection.
Comments are encouraged and will be accepted on or before February 14,
2011. This process is conducted in accordance with 5 CFR 1320.10.

If you have comments especially on the estimated public burden or
associated response time, suggestions, or need a copy of the proposed
information collection instrument with instructions or additional
information, please contact Gary Schaible, [email protected]
National Firearms Act Branch, 99 New York Avenue, NE., Washington, DC
20226 Fax (202) 648-9601.

Written comments and suggestions from the public and affected
agencies concerning the proposed information collection are encouraged.
Your comments should address one or more of the following four points:

--Evaluate whether the proposed collection of information is necessary
for the proper performance of the functions of the agency's including
whether the information will have practical utility;
--Evaluate the accuracy of the agency's estimate of the burden of the
proposed collection of information, including the validity of the
methodology and assumptions used;
--Enhance the quality, utility, and clarity of the information to be
collected; and
--Minimize the burden of the collection of information on those who are
to respond, including through the use of appropriate automated,
electronic, mechanical, or other technological collection techniques or
other forms of information technology, e.g., permitting electronic
submission of responses.

Summary of Collection:

(1) Type of Information Collection: New.

(2) Title of the Form/Collection: Letter Requesting Supporting
Documents Identifying a Legal Entity.

(3) Agency form number, if any, and the applicable component of the
Department of Justice sponsoring the collection: Form Number: None.
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

(4) Affected public who will be asked or required to respond:

Primary: Business or other for-profit.

Other: None.

Need for Collection: The collection of information will be used to
determine the lawful existence and validity of a legal entity before
ATF approves the transfer of an NFA firearm to that entity.

(5) An estimate of the total number of respondents and the amount
of time estimated for an average respondent to respond: It is estimated
that 5,000 respondents will spend approximately 30 minutes to compile
documentation requested by the letter.

(6) An estimate of the total public burden (in hours) associated
with the collection: There are an estimated 5,000 annual total burden
hours associated with this collection.

If additional information is required contact: Lynn Murray,
Department Clearance Officer, Policy and Planning Staff, Justice
Management Division, Department of Justice, 2 Constitution Square, Room
2E-502, 145 N Street, NE., Washington, DC 20530.

Dated: December 9, 2010.
Lynn Murray,
Department Clearance Officer, PRA, U.S. Department of Justice.
[FR Doc. 2010-31401 Filed 12-14-10; 8:45 am]

December 22, 2010, 06:00 PM
Interesting. I'd wager that there's way more than 5000 trusts involved,so I wonder if they're saying that there's only 5000 questionable trusts? The trust route has been popular for 2-3 years now. A lot of states have very minimal trust rules, so NFA trusts make sense in those states. My state actually allows a grantor to "self deal",so I can be grantor, trustee and initial beneficiary so long as there is an inheriting beneficiary listed.

December 23, 2010, 11:15 AM
(4) Affected public who will be asked or required to respond:

Primary: Business or other for-profit.emphasis added

Other: None.

It appears that this is directed towards Corporations (ie. security contractors such as Blackwater) rather than trusts. As far as I know, trusts are not set up as a for-profit entity.