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Winchester_73
September 1, 2010, 07:16 AM
Recently I was informed that Singer made both the M1 carbine and M1 garand. I cannot find any info to verify the claim. The person that told me singer made both apparently didn't bother to verify his facts either. Just to be sure, I'm wondering if anyone has pictures or any evidence of his claim. I think the person simply believes that since Singer made 1911s, then they surely must have also made garands and carbines. I pointed out that none of the 1911 manufacturers also made carbines or garands: Colt, Ithaca, Remington Rand, Union Switch and Signal, and Singer. Of course, he still insists that he's right. He told me that he saw a singer m1 carbine before but I feel he's confused.

Can anyone provide any info on Singer made M1 carbines or garands? Thanks.

pbratton
September 1, 2010, 07:34 AM
Not that I entirely trust anything on Wikipedia... But, this is a snip from the Singer report:

During WWII, the company suspended sewing machine production to take on government contracts for weapons manufacturing. Factories in the US supplied Americans with Norden bomb sights, M1 Garand rifles and M1911 pistols while factories in Germany provided their armed forces with weapons.

In 1939, the company was given a production study by the government to draw plans and develop standard raw material sizes for building M1911A1 pistols. The next year, April 17th, 1940, Singer was given an educational order of 500 units with serial numbers No. S800001 - S800500. The educational order was a program set up by the US Ordnance Board to learn how easily a company with no gun-making experience could tool up from scratch and build weapons for the government. After the 500 units were delivered to the government; the management decided their expertise would be better used in producing artillery and bomb sights. The pistol tooling and manufacturing machines were transferred to Remington Rand and some went to the Ithaca Gun Company. Original and correct Singer pistols are highly desired by collectors. In excellent condition, Singer pistols sell anywhere from $25,000 to $60,000. Current collector value is as high as $80,000 at auction

BlueTrain
September 1, 2010, 07:46 AM
I've long thought that the subject of armaments production during the war was fascinating. One of the ways we won the war was by making things faster than the enemy could destroy them. I wonder if we could still do that today?

Giving a company like Singer a contract for a test run of pistols was certainly an interesting experiment and likewise, I wonder how it would turn out today? But in Singer's case, they didn't make any more. Before World War II the standard issue pistol in Norway was the 1911 Colt. Supposedly they manufactured some as a cost study well after the war before adopting something else (here I'm just remembering something I read long ago), then sold the pistols on the surplus market. How's that for a curiosity.

Winchester_73
September 1, 2010, 07:47 AM
During WWII, the company suspended sewing machine production to take on government contracts for weapons manufacturing. Factories in the US supplied Americans with Norden bomb sights, M1 Garand rifles and M1911 pistols while factories in Germany provided their armed forces with weapons.

Might this mean that they were interested or tried to take on a contract but did not? I read this quote you posted yesterday but I cannot find any other info. Surely if there were examples made, they were would be more info?

salvadore
September 1, 2010, 07:47 AM
I remember having a couple of Singers 1911s in the arms room of the 221st Signal Co. circa 69/71.

BlueTrain
September 1, 2010, 08:20 AM
Sounds hard to believe but Skeeter Skelton mentioned in one of his books that he never saw a Colt produced 1911 when he was in the service. We had nearly as many 1911s in our arms rooms as M14s when I was in the army but it never occurred to me to check anything about them. But we had some Colt pocket autos, too, which were positively made by Colt as well as a few Colt revolvers.

Winchester_73
September 1, 2010, 08:35 AM
So no one thus far has any info on supposed Singer garands or carbines?

Jim Watson
September 1, 2010, 09:05 AM
I have no information because there is no information. I think your source was mistaken or making stuff up.

The government concluded that Singer's capabilities were better used to make artillery fire directors than pistols. It is hard to see why they would have gotten them into rifle production.

Winchester_73
September 3, 2010, 12:52 PM
Jim

Thats what I always thought myself but try to make that horse drink water! Its harder than you think.

Arondos
September 5, 2010, 04:46 PM
Looks like they weren't made by them.

http://www.scott-duff.com/WhoHowManyWhen.htm

And carbines

http://www.fulton-armory.com/M1Carbine.htm

Slamfire
September 5, 2010, 07:41 PM
Singer never made any M1 Garands.

The manufacturers are

Springfield Armory,
Winchester,
International Harvester,
H&R.

The list of Carbine manfacturers is a lot longer, but Singer is not one of them.

Tim R
September 6, 2010, 06:24 PM
What Slam Fire said.......I still need a tractor to finish my Garand colection.

Dfariswheel
September 6, 2010, 06:59 PM
I've recently heard that apparently Singer did experimentally make 5,000 M1 Carbine receivers for Underwood.

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?186442-Singer-Mfg-M-1-Carbine

Groundhog34
September 6, 2010, 08:44 PM
Go to the CMP website. They sell use M1 and M1 carbines and have useful information. I think singer made some M1 carbines but what do I know?
No much.

p99guy
September 6, 2010, 11:54 PM
Singer Did make carbine parts....Its well outlined in War Baby Volume 1, published by Collector Grade Publications, they made 5,000 receivers for Underwood.

If you see a Underwood carbine with a "B" and ordnance bomb on the rear tang.. its a Singer ( I have a 1943 Underwood "Singer Bee")

http://a.imageshack.us/img79/4686/200501290110be.jpg

surbat6
September 7, 2010, 12:06 AM
The ten contractors who made M1 Carbines during WWII used a lot of sub-contractors, one of whom may be Singer.

The contractors were as follow:

Inland Division of General Motors
Winchester (the only firearm manufacturer on this list)
Saginaw Steering Gear (GM again)
Rockola (juke boxes)
Underwood (typewriters)
National Postal Meter
Standard Products
Quality Hardware
IBM
Irwin Pederson (the rarest)

(Hey, pretty good for an old curmudgeon! I listed them from memory and checked. Generally I have trouble remembering my phone number.)

pbratton
September 8, 2010, 03:33 PM
Ok, so why has this gotten so out of control?

A simple search concludes that Singer US DID manufacture M1 Carbine receivers, along with a whole poo-pot fun of other stuff.

It appears that Singer was an extremely important part of the war effort.

Here's the scoop in what the Singer US plant did during the war (includes source document reference for the skeptics...):


Singer's Role in WWII
Prior to WWII, employment at the Elizabethport, N.J. Singer factory totaled 5,000. The 113 acre factory comprised 48 buildings with a combined floor area of over 2.6 million square feet. The self-sufficient plant included a foundry, wire drawing mill, hardening and tempering facilities, as well as machining and press operations. The factory produced its own nuts, bolts, springs and pins, tools, gauges and fixtures and contained a photographic and printing plant as well as metallurgical and chemical laboratories for the testing materials.

Increased demands for family sewing machines, repair parts and needles began to be felt in late 1939. The Singer factory in Scotland was engaged in the war effort and shipping throughout Europe was limited which resulted in Singer sales outlets normally supplied from Scotland turning to Elizabethport for family sewing machines and machine parts. By 1940, France had fallen and England was on the verge of collapse. Demand on Elizabethport was further increased by sales outlets attempting to build stock in anticipation of the United States becoming involved in the war. Through 1941 Elizabethport met the demands for family sewing machines, parts, and needles and increased their volume of war work and industrial sewing machine production.

During this period the use of materials such as copper, iron, steel, and aluminum became critical and production of civilian goods such as family sewing machines was completely stopped by order of the War Production Board. The order stopping family sewing machine production—Limitation Order L-98—became effective June 15, 1942. Between that time and July 1945 production of family sewing machines at Elizabethport was completely stopped and only limited production of repair parts and needles was allowed by War Production Board regulations. The halt of the supply of family sewing machines to sales outlets for a period of over three years presented a critical problem to the sales organizations. In addition to the stoppage of family sewing machine production, the board ordered the majority of existing stock of completed family sewing machines frozen and earmarked for use by government agencies. Releases of frozen stock were authorized throughout the war, most to South American countries in promotion of the National Good Neighbor Policy.

Elizabethport personnel who were released from working on family sewing machines due to Limitation Order L-98 were absorbed into the factory's war production effort. Singer's American factories were responsible for the development and production of a variety of items for the war effort including:

.45 caliber automatic pistols
M5 Director equipment to control the fire of 37mm and 40mm anti-aircraft guns
B-29 gunfire control computers
Hydraulic servo assemblies
Subassemblies for the M7 Director 90mm anti-aircraft gun
Gun turret castings for the B-29 bomber
Castings for aircraft engine piston rings
Gun sights for the Mark XV 3-inch, 5-inch, and 40mm anti-aircraft guns on naval ships
Caliber .30 M1 carbine receiver
Director M5 parts
Parts for the Sperry Directional Gyro and Artificial Horizon instruments
Housings and covers for the A3 Automatic Pilot
Parts for the T-1 bomb sight
Ammunition boxes
Time and percussion fuses
Variable pitch wooden propeller blades
Special types of motors for fire control and other ordnance equipment
As a way to acknowledge the importance of the industrial workers to the war effort, the Army-Navy Production Award "E" Pennant was created. Awarded to a plant rather than a company, it consisted of a flag to be flown over the plant and a lapel pin for every employee within the plant. In November 1942 Singer's Elizabethport, New Jersey plant received the Army-Navy "E" Pennant in recognition of its outstanding production of needed war material. In July 1945, Elizabethport Works was cited for the fifth time, and a fourth star was added to the pennant.

Because of its foundry, tool room, and press and screw machinery, Elizabethport was also able to provide assistance to other manufacturers engaged in the war effort:

Thread milling cutters and motor castings for the Lawrence Aeronautical Corporation
Rumbling barrel castings were made for Springfield Armory
Ball reamers to International Business Machine Company
Surgical instrument forgings were supplied to Brandenburg Instrument Company
Cast iron bars were made for American Gas Accumulator
Thread chasers were supplied to Reliable Machine Screw Company.
Prisms were ground for an optical manufacturer and shafts were ground for Simmonds Aerocessories, Inc.
Parts were oxidized for Taller and Cooper Company, Jersey City
Eight-inch projectiles were sand blasted for Crucible Steel
Stator and rotor plates were heat treated for Allen D. Cardwell
Dental chair castings were produced for S. S. White
Taper pins and spring pins were made in large quantities for Babcock Printing Press, Eastman Kodak, General Electric, Western Electric, Excello Corporation, Submarine Signal Company and Worth Engineering
Thread milling hobs were made for American Type Founders, National Rubber machinery and Webendorfer - all working on 40 mm and 75 mm guns - for *Carl M. Norden, working on bomb sights; for Eisman Magneto Corporation and National Pneumatic, working on gun tubes and shells; also Farand Optical Company, Guilbert and Barker Company, National Broach and Machine Company, Diehl Manufacturing Company, Williams Oil-O-Matic, Miller Printing Machinery and the Dictaphone Corporation, working on a variety of war jobs
Hobs and ground thread taps were produced for Textile Machinery Company, Sperry Instrument Company, Delco Division of General Motors, Teletype Corporation, Ford Motor Company and Maxon, Inc.

* The source Singer in World War II - 1939 to 1945, published in 1946 by Singer Manufacturing Company, lists the name as Carl M. Norden; the correct name is Carl L. Norden, founder of Carl L. Norden, Inc., Manhattan, New York.

jmorris
September 8, 2010, 04:52 PM
One of the ways we won the war was by making things faster than the enemy could destroy them. I wonder if we could still do that today?

As long as our enemy is not China...:rolleyes:

surbat6
September 9, 2010, 07:17 PM
Pbratton, I don't see where the thread got out of control. Posts were civil, mostly on-topic. No trolls detected. My post, which may have been superfluous in light of links previously posted, merely listed the ten wartime contractors for M1 Carbines.
Singer (along with MANY others) was very important to the war effort. They just didn't make carbines. They did, apparently, make receivers for Underwood (thanks for the education, guys!). AFAIK, ALL of the ten on my list used sub-contractors - including Singer - for parts.
Singer was definitely a contractor for 1911A1 pistols and other materiel on your list as well as sub-contractor for the other items you listed.

Jmorris, when our enemy was China, it seems that their primary strategy was to attack with more troops than we had ammo, with varying success.

aviationr
October 11, 2010, 08:30 PM
Singer did indeed make M1 Carbines during WW2. I am not sure about any other firearm they may or may not have made. How do I know? I have one in my gunsafe. The exact reason I purchased it was because it seemed very odd. So for those that say no, they just do not know what they are talking about.

ndking1126
October 11, 2010, 08:57 PM
aviationr, welcome to the forum!!

But unspoken rule #1 here is pictures. If you've visited our forum more than a time or 2 you know someone's gonna ask for pictures!! :)

JIMSPD9
October 15, 2010, 12:27 AM
Pbratton asked why this thread got out of hand?

I posted a response a month or so back about M-1 carbines and said that in 1970 I picked out, my carbine at a surplus armory in Washington D C from a group of 11 other rifles because the armorer told me it was made by Singer.

12 Va. Beach police officers paid $45.00 for each rifle under a program promoted by the NRA to put these weapons into the hands of police officers for use on patrol.

Four years later I sold my Singer made carbine for $150.00, so I couldn't supply a picture of same.

Several self appointed forum police and drug store gun experts chimed in that my comments were made up, that I was confused, or you can't make a horse drink water, etc. Please refer to previous postings prior to this reply.

The minutia of war production during WWII is so vast, I defy anyone to know it all.

This forum I thought was to entertain, or inform, and not to berate a fellow member for comments made about anything. We all see questions asked here that seem a little, "well you know". Five minutes later it all gets explained to the novice gun owner.

We get enough made up stuff/cool aid on a daily basis from the White House for me to do it.

My mother(RIP) assembled M-1 Garands at the International Harvester plant in Louisville. Ky. Some of the parts were made somewhere else and shipped in for final assembly.

Thank God we could make enough parts, like barrels, recievers and triggers in EAST UNDERWEAR. ALABAMA and later put them together in PODUNK, TEXAS. to defeat our common enemy.

My 2 cents worth.

Jim S.

Chris_B
October 15, 2010, 11:48 AM
Subcontractors make parts. Contractors make the product. Singer didn't contract, they subcontracted.

http://www.recguns.com/Sources/IIID2b1311.html

Singer made M1911A1s. they are the rarest maker. They did not make M1911s. They did not make "WWII garand rifles"

I don't mean to step on toes or call anyone out. I'd love to see a USGI Singer M1 Carbine. I don't think I'm going to though. Might see an Underwood B stamp

Ignition Override
October 16, 2010, 02:11 AM
pbratton:
This might not interest you, but among many other types of trans-Atlantic WW2 industry, you probably also know that most Lee-Enfield #4/1 rifles, used by British and Commonwealth troops in WW2, were built in Canada (Longbranch) and
the US (Savage).

DG45
October 16, 2010, 02:52 AM
Legally speaking, isn't the receiver considered to be the gun? Isn't that why you have to have a FFL to get an AR receiver shipped directly to you? If so, if the Singer Co. manufactured the receiver for those WWII carbines, wasn't Singer in fact considered to be the manufacturer of those guns?

Chris_B
October 16, 2010, 07:06 AM
:) Please pick out which one is the M1 carbine from the following photos

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/Chuck_Older/newstuff/carbinestock.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/Chuck_Older/newstuff/carbrec.jpg

While you have a point from a legal standpoint DG, also consider this- if I sell to you an M1 carbine receiver, does my bill of sale read "M1 carbine" or does it read "M1 carbine receiver"? If you were to read an advertisement selling "M1 carbines", and then you went to the store to buy one and you discovered that they were actually selling just receivers, is the store being deceitful? Why is it that legally, a seller lists receivers instead of the rifle?

If my gun store (if I had one) sells to you an "M1 carbine" for 700 dollars, and then we ship you an m1 carbine receiver, have we done anything legally wrong?

Singer subcontracted. I think that's the perceptual problem with this whole issue. Subcontractors do not produce the finished product, by definition of their role. If somebody can show me that M1 carbines left the Singer plant in a completed state, and all Underwood did was then re-sell them, I will carefully and thoroughly re-think that statement! :) If Underwood did anything to what Singer made, then how did Singer produce the final product? With the prime contractor, all Singer did in that case was make a sub-component at best

Legal contortions of what makes a firearm is an interesting point. I think that the scenario here is that using the M1 carbine as an example, the M1 carbine receiver is a firearm legally, not that the M1 carbine receiver is the M1 carbine. I think that's why the generic term 'firearm' is used. I would actually appreciate any member's clarification of that point; it seems to be one of those clear as mud situations that benefits people other than firearm owners, although that topic may be best suited for the 'general discussion' forum

edit-
and now after posting, I'd love to go to the rifle range today but I'm too busy!

miuwcm3
May 18, 2011, 10:36 AM
I work with a guy (both in army), and he swears he has a singer garand back home in Texas. When he goes home again, Im going to have hime get pictures. So I know this is an older thread, but lets wait n see

wildsalmon
October 2, 2011, 11:05 PM
In 1967 while going thru basic training at Fort Lewis I was issued a Singer M1 Garand. I shot expert with this rifle missing only the last target because the linseed oil from stock starting boiling from barrel heat causing my glasses to fog up. I recall being amazed that a sewing machine company had made rifles.

Tim R
October 3, 2011, 12:52 AM
In 1967 while going thru basic training at Fort Lewis I was issued a Singer M1 Garand. I shot expert with this rifle missing only the last target because the linseed oil from stock starting boiling from barrel heat causing my glasses to fog up. I recall being amazed that a sewing machine company had made rifles.

As Slam Fire already stated, there were 4 manuf's of the M-1 Garand. Springfield, Winchester, H&R and IHC. H&R came in after WWII as did IHC. By the way Winchester built the worse one's (poor machine work) while IHC's goal was to build the best one.

Wildsamon, if you in fact had a Singer M-1 Garand, you had in your hands a very rare and a one of a kind rifle. Sorry. I'm not trying to make you feel bad. Its just there are no records of Singer producing M-1 Garands. I wonder if by chance you weren't thinking about a tractor company making M-1 Garands.

I've heard some people claim they were issued a Tanker M-1. Gee, I wonder which one of the four built by Springfield they got.

BlueTrain
October 3, 2011, 06:09 AM
I went through basic training in 1965 at Fort Knox with an M-14. My father went through basic training in 1942 with an M-1. My son went through basic training in Fort Knox in 2004 with an M-16. I am aware the National Guard was still using M-1s in the 1970s but I did not know they were still being used in basic training in 1967. I never saw an M-1 or an M-16 when I was in the army.

mkk41
October 3, 2011, 06:16 AM
In 1967 while going thru basic training at Fort Lewis I was issued a Singer M1 Garand. I shot expert with this rifle missing only the last target because the linseed oil from stock starting boiling from barrel heat causing my glasses to fog up. I recall being amazed that a sewing machine company had made rifles.

You weren't issued a Mattel M-16 too , were ya?

madcratebuilder
October 3, 2011, 08:13 AM
In 1967 while going thru basic training at Fort Lewis I was issued a Singer M1 Garand. I shot expert with this rifle missing only the last target because the linseed oil from stock starting boiling from barrel heat causing my glasses to fog up. I recall being amazed that a sewing machine company had made rifles.

The Army issued M14's for basic training at Ft Lewis in 1966/67 when I was their, I don't think they would revert back to the Garands, the M14 was standard issue for active Army personnel. I was issued my first M16 in late 1968 in SE Asia. The hand guards did not say "Made by Mattel" it didn't jam or fail, it ran like a Swiss watch if kept it clean. So did the two M60's I signed out each day. PM kept you alive.

mkk41
October 3, 2011, 08:29 AM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v491/mkk41/vra6qg.jpg:D

Fullboar
October 3, 2011, 09:57 AM
You should see my daughters Barbie M82 50BMG. :D

Fullboar
October 3, 2011, 10:14 AM
http://www.usgunexchange.com/products.cfm?tbl=21&id=508
http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/history/singer.htm

mkk41
October 3, 2011, 10:19 AM
I'd bet any Singers still in US inventory after WWII went thru R&R. I have seen a few Singer slides , perhaps more slides were made and released as spares. All were parkerized.

BlueTrain
October 3, 2011, 12:36 PM
Someone mentioned maintenance. Anyone remember "PS Monthly Maintenance Magazine?"

Leroy.Thurman
April 30, 2014, 12:11 AM
I have a Singer M1 Carbine. I believe it is a 1943. I would look at it but it is in MO in my gun safe and I am out in PA working ATM. I kn ow this is a very old post but I wanted to clear it up they do exsist.......

natman
April 30, 2014, 10:34 AM
I have a Singer M1 Carbine. I believe it is a 1943. I would look at it but it is in MO in my gun safe and I am out in PA working ATM. I kn ow this is a very old post but I wanted to clear it up they do exsist.......

Several people have thought they had a Singer M1 Carbine/Garand, but nobody has yet provided a picture of one.

I suppose it's not impossible that such a thing exists, but if so it has escaped the attention of everyone who has ever documented two of the most thoroughly documented firearms in history.

Singer was definitely involved in 1911 pistol production, but there is no evidence to suggest they were involved in either M1.

Ibmikey
May 2, 2014, 08:03 AM
I have collected Carbines for fifty years, have lots of research material by the most noted authorities and nowhere has Singer been mentioned as a primary carbine contractor. Some of these posts have no more foundation than a lost gold mine, this one died several years ago so put it back in the grave!

Slamfire
May 2, 2014, 08:49 AM
I have a Singer M1 Carbine. I believe it is a 1943. I would look at it but it is in MO in my gun safe and I am out in PA working ATM. I kn ow this is a very old post but I wanted to clear it up they do exsist.......

Until I see a number of pictures, the reporting of Singer made Garands and Carbines is about as verifiable as Elvis sightings. Or, weapons of mass destruction in Iraqi.

(We went to war with less evidence than whether Singer made carbines!)

In so far as the question whether if Singer makes the receiver, does that make the carbine a "Singer"?, that is a philosophical and legalistic argument. No grocery store owns a cat food or vegetable canning factory, and yet I go to the store each week and see "store brands". A friend of mine worked on an oil can line, he said from the same 30,000 gallon tank of 10W-30 oil, he filled tins that were labeled with every brand of oil in America, except Penzoil. So, in the case of grocery stores and oil cans, who is considered the "maker" in terms of liability?

In terms of contracting, the Government holds the prime contractor responsible for the product. Singer could have made 99.99% of the parts in M1 carbines, but if "Oscar" is rolled stamped on the receiver, and "Oscar" is the prime, "Oscar" is the manufacturer and is the one who is legally responsible for all aspects of their carbine production.

BigG
May 2, 2014, 01:06 PM
Wait a minute - Elvis works right here at the Waffle House! :eek: