PDA

View Full Version : So you pulled your gun on someone what happened next???


threegun
July 13, 2010, 07:51 AM
Guys I'm looking for some first hand accounts of the reaction by the bad guy once you pulled your gun on them. Did they comply, run, continue, freeze, Etc. You can post the story if you are comfortable doing so or just the outcome.

I have had a couple and got compliance from both.

Thanks in advance.

45Gunner
July 13, 2010, 08:01 AM
Each time I pulled my gun on someone, actually my rifle, I shot them. No time for them to run. No place to hide, once I found them. No neutralize the threat, just shoot to kill.

But that was in Vietnam and we were all young and lawless. Live like an animal and became an animal. But keep this in mind, most of us that had that attitude are here to (not) talk about it (and suffer the consequences of our actions - PTSD).

If you are going to pull your gun out of your holster, you damn well better pull the trigger (unless you are a trained LEO). Otherwise, you have no business extracting metal from leather.

ISC
July 13, 2010, 08:26 AM
If you ever point a gun at someone you better
1) have a reason to kill them

and

2) be ready to shoot them.

If they raise their hands and surrender you tell them to lie face down on the ground or on their knees with their legs crossed and their hands behind their backs while you call the cops.

If they run away you keep your weapon pointed at them in case they turn around and point a weapon at you. As soon as they are a safe distance, call the police and report the incident so that you son't have to worry about being accused of brandishing a gun.

ice9_us
July 13, 2010, 08:34 AM
When I go through Atlanta and suburbs (what I dub highrisk areas) I keep the gun between the seat and console…
While at a stop light in DeKalb county there was a guy standing on the corner looking at everyone.
I noticed he didn’t cross after 2 red lights, and was curious as to why he was standing there. When I pulled up in his view, I saw him looking at my jeep..
I was alone. The guy started to walk up to my car looking, moving his head around, trying to see in side if anyone was in with me or if I was alone.. or so that is how I felt.. the closer he got the more nervous I got because he wasn’t moving for the last 5 minutes. I put my hand on the gun. As he saw me move he raised up to look at what I was doing, I moved my hand just enough for him to see it, and his expression changed quickly, and he backed up and turned away.. I am not sure what his purpose was, but the next day someone on that corner was killed during a carjacking.. That may just be coincidence, but since that day I never leave my gun.

ISC
July 13, 2010, 09:03 AM
I'm guessing that you didn't call the police and report it. I don't imagine I would have either, but I wonder if the person who died there the next day might have had a different fate if a call to the police with a description had been made. Knowing Atlanta, probly not, they would likely have just ignored it.

CWPinSC
July 13, 2010, 09:10 AM
Why do you want to know?

ice9_us
July 13, 2010, 09:12 AM
My dad was a atlanta officer for 20 years.. retired..
He said they can't and won't do anything unless a law was broken...
A guy standing outside your car would not warrent a policeofficer to do anything.

I didn't think anything of it.. it may not even be related...
It was just scary to think about the events that took place.
The fact he didn't do anything illegal would not allowed them to do anything.

brj
July 13, 2010, 11:33 AM
I have had a couple and got compliance from both.


Then what happened ?

markj
July 13, 2010, 04:00 PM
So you pulled your gun on someone what happened next???


I unleashed the hell only brought by the skilled use of the largest super soaker allowed by law. They got wet.


A few years ago some fellows drove onto my place uninvited, said they had beef to sell, hmmm come to a feedlot and try to sell beef? I told him I dont buy beef, he started in his spiel, I said very loud voice, get the heck off of my place before I get real upset. I was standing by him looking down on his head, he left fast. No body wants to mess with 300 lbs of me :) dont need a gun for dealing with creeps like that. Never had to use a gun in any confrontation I ever had, even when a bouncer.

Now my Uncles and cousins that are LEO can sure tell you some tales, well if you were family they would. :)

threegun
July 13, 2010, 04:01 PM
Guys I'm not trying to start another thread explaining the whys, whens, and hows about pulling a gun on someone. I simply want those folks who have pulled on someone without having to fire to let us know how said bad guy reacted.

Why do you want to know?

I need information to support or dispel a theory I have. Plus its fun to read the stories.

Then what happened ?

In one case we held the bad guy for police. The other case we retreated safely from the area. Both situations the sight of the gun caused an immediate cessation of motion.

javabum
July 13, 2010, 05:42 PM
If i did ever pull my weapon on some one,having it laid out on the internet would be the last place i would want it.....Anything put out on the web is there forever and could possibly (and would) be used against you in the future for anything that comes up in the future.

I would think that some if not most who carry would agree with me....
Just curious....why do/would you want that kind if information for?

threegun
July 13, 2010, 06:01 PM
Javabum, I left the option to post the story or the just outcome. If your scenario is justified there shouldn't be a problem either way. If you feel this way then simply don't post. There are plenty who can and hopefully will.

I already listed why I'm asking.

demigod
July 13, 2010, 06:29 PM
If you are going to pull your gun out of your holster, you damn well better pull the trigger (unless you are a trained LEO).

<Good Grief Colorado>! You're an instructor???? :eek:

In my state you can be charged with Agg assault for unnecessarily pointing a gun at an innocent person... and rightly so.

But if someone brandishes a knife in a threatening way, you pull your pistol, and they drop the knife, seeing that you're armed..... following your rules would get you a murder conviction. ESPECIALLY if there are witnesses to the incident.

There are NO ABSOLUTES in any given threat scenario that tell me you shoot when you draw no matter what. And there are plenty of incidents of the weapon presentation ending a dangerous situation peacefully. The advice from LE/instructors in my state is to report the incident so the bad guy doesn't try and play Good Guy and nail you for Agg assault.

old bear
July 13, 2010, 07:37 PM
I should have known better than to even start in this one, so if I can't delete my post at least I can erase it.:cool:

grubbylabs
July 13, 2010, 08:13 PM
I did not necessarily pull my weapon on some one but I did pull a revolver from my pocket and have it at my side while I was being confronted by a threatening dog. I never pointed the gun at any thing or any one, But the dog owner did get a little more serious about putting his dog away. The sheriff did show up looking for "two guys in Cabela's outfits" that had a hand gun, but according to my dad, he was their only a few seconds. Had he run the plates on the only car there he would have seen that I have CCW permit. It would have taken him literally minutes to find me wading in the stream, In other words he would have had of get out of his truck. So basically nothing happened.

eddyb74
July 13, 2010, 08:27 PM
Short version. Confrontation with a guy outside a bar(I was sober) he started digging in the bed of his truck. I told him to leave his tire iron alone and have a good night. He came at me with the tire iron, I had already drawn (I was standing in the open door of my truck, so the gun was out of sight)I showed him the gun as he waved the iron from about 8 feet away and once again told him to have a good night. He picked up his jaw, said you too and walked away.

Did I handle it perfectly? No. Did I get the response I wanted? Yes.

45Gunner
July 13, 2010, 11:31 PM
In my state you can be charged with Agg assault for unnecessarily pointing a gun at an innocent person... and rightly so

Did I miss something here? I thought the discussion was about pulling a gun on someone and I think I made it quite clear that if you pull a gun on someone you had better be of the mindset to use it. I don't think my words could be misconstrued to indicate that one would pull a gun on an "innocent" person. I think the point was being made that if you take the gun out of the holster, we are not taking about innocent other parties.

Indeed, if one were to pull a gun on a so-called innocent person, say for the purpose of intimidation, then you are actually correct and the offending person could realistically be charged with AGG Assault.

For the sake of this conversation, I think we were talking about two different things in the same conversation. I will try to be more precise next time. Thanks for bringing that to my attention.

hoytinak
July 13, 2010, 11:41 PM
The closest I've come to pulling a gun (as a civilian anyways): Got a call about 2am from some drunk buddies at the bar needing a ride home so I went to pick them up. Of course they were hungry and wanted to go to Waffle House but didn't have any cash on them. So I pull up to an ATM machine and when I get the money out of the machine a guy comes outta no where (from drunksitting I guess I just didn't see him walk up :o) with a knife and tells me to hand the cash over to him. I had my Springfield Champian between my seat and the center console. Well I pulled it out, set it on my lap and said "I don't think so"...the guy dropped the knife, said he was sorry and ran away. This happened across the street from the local police station so right after I went in a filed a report.

LordTio3
July 14, 2010, 08:01 AM
I've only ever had a couple of incidents (thanks to God for that) in my years. 2 were misunderstandings about proper procedure for maintenance workers letting themselves into my apartment when I'm not home which got me strict compliance and a written apology... the second time.

The only other time I had to use my CCW weapon against a BG in self defense was to deter two individuals from robbing me outside of a drive-thru ATM at a gas station. The entire situation is burried somewhere here, but the basic situation was that two individuals who knew that I had just gotten money from the nearby ATM came at me in a Kroger Gas Station lot. I saw them coming and looked at the teller in his booth and said, "Call the Police right now." I then walked a few feet from the booth, squared up with them, cleared my cover garment and gripped my weapon. I stopped there and didn't pull. I could see all 4 hands under the lights of the station. I made menacing eye contact and said very seriously,
"Stop right there. The police are on their way... If I were you, I'd be running right now."

They stopped when I told them to. So I stopped my draw. If they had come any closer, they would have had a pair of sights trained on them. But they didn't, so they didn't. If one had pulled a weapon, so would I. If one had come at me with a weapon, a small cohort of my weapon would be coming at them; quite quickly. But like most criminals, they were also cowards when their victimology proved faulty. They exchanged a thoughtful look between them and took off running.

This ended exactly like it should have. And my unlock codes served me very well. See a threat - prepare yourself. See an armed threat - arm yourself. Witness an eminent attack - produce an eminent attack.

And what is more, no one ever saw my weapon; I could have been bluffing my hind end off. But HAVING my weapon on me gave me the confidence and knowledge to face two possibly armed individuals without hesitation. Just as 90% of defense encounters are solved by simply brandishing, I believe that many more are prevented altogether by how criminals perceive the behavior of those individuals that have the capacity to defend themselves. They are looking for defenseless, so they naturally pass up quiet confidence and implied strength for weak and insecure every day of the week.

~LT

Tuzo
July 14, 2010, 11:02 AM
Only in war have I had to shoot aggressively.

45Gunner responded:

"If you are going to pull your gun out of your holster, you damn well better pull the trigger (unless you are a trained LEO). Otherwise, you have no business extracting metal from leather."

This is either meaningless posturing or serious misunderstanding of what it means to carry a firearm. Attitudes and statements such as this help fuel a negative image of firearm owners and carriers. Reminds me of the novelized Hollywood notion that everytime a samurai draws a sword blood must also be drawn.

Thankfully, most firearm carriers do not adhere to 45Gunner's practice. If they did we would have CCW, open carry, and firearms ownership in dire peril.

Edward429451
July 14, 2010, 12:16 PM
<"If you are going to pull your gun out of your holster, you damn well better pull the trigger (unless you are a trained LEO). Otherwise, you have no business extracting metal from leather.">

I understand this mindset and in no way can say it is wrong. I do not adhere to it 100% because (luckily) it is not always necessary to shoot if one draws. If I don't have to shoot then by god I wont shoot. That does not mean that I've never felt the need to draw, it's happened...

Once working security at Eastland Lanes in Columbus an off duty CPD caught his wife being 'searched' by another man. Big man chases away the oppurtunist and proceeds to slap his Wife around. I tell him to go so he decides to take his frustrations out on me and double palmed me causing me to drop my radio. I introduced him to my PR-24 a few times and he's standing there bleeding and says something to the effect of oh you are so dead and reaches in his pocket, and I'm thinkin knife so I draw and go to low ready in case he's going for carkeys instead...I got my response, he started paying real close attention to me and moving real slow, he was going for his keys to leave. I felt bad about it but knew I did the right thing.

Another time, a pair of Guys followed me and my then pregnant Wife off the bus and wanted to get our money with a shell game so I yelled at them to leave us alone, and took my Wifes arm and head her up a side street, 1/2 block up here comes one of them out from between the row of houses and I turn around to see the other one approaching from up the street. The big one is crowding me and I am trying to give him space and half steppin backwards giving him room and he keeps shuffling towards me closing the gap and I was backed up against the street. Suddenly it escalated and I could feel him about to suckerpunch me and then he was going to knock down my pregnant Wife and take her purse. I remember it like yesterday, with my left arm I sweep my Wife rearwards and took one step back with my right foot and took a drawing grip on my 1911...(I never made firends so fast in my life!) The big guy puts his hands up and steps back, the smaller one sits down in the grass very fast. The big one turned and started to walk up through a yard the direction he had come between the houses. I took her arm and we jogged a few blocks to create distance. Then I couldn't stop shaking for like 20-30 minutes! Oh i was all pumped up, that was close.

booker_t
July 14, 2010, 01:30 PM
I imagine responses to this loose survey question would fall into one of the following bins:

1) Pulled gun, opponent ceased, no fire.

2) Pulled gun, opponent continued, fire to stop.

3) Pulled gun, opponent continued, fire failed to stop, citizen injured/killed.

4) Didn't pull gun, opponent ceased, no action.

5) Didn't pull gun, opponent continued, physical action to stop.

6) Didn't pull gun, opponent continued, physical action failed to stop, citizen injured/killed.

#4 and #6 would not likely respond to your thread if they read it, particularly if they were deceased.

#2 would not likely respond because generally it is not something they want to talk about, considering the legal issues. If you've read the TFL archives going back to 1998, you'll find scant few postings from people sharing their personal story about stopping an attack with gunfire.

#1, #3 and #5 people may post about, either because they want to inform others, are proud of their successful defense, or some other reason.

We could further break this down into opponent types (home intruders, rapists, street muggers/druggies, car jackers, bar/public house patrons, terrorists, etc).

Regardless, while anecdotal information from a self-selective community of gun enthusiasts (such as TFL) might make for an interesting read, it does not sufficiently provide significant (statistical or otherwise) evidence for the formulation, validation or verification of tactics theory. In the end, gun enthusiasts will come to the same conclusions:

1) Having it is better than not having it and

2) Using it responsibly is of key importance both for effectiveness and to preserve the right to continue having it.

hagar
July 14, 2010, 02:22 PM
The people I really fear are the bad people that do not give a darn if you shoot them or not. Fortunately the 9 or 10 bad ones I encountered over the last 30 years accepted my invitation to leave without much protest, or only got brave once they were in a vehicle and sped off, hurling obscenities at me.

There is NOTHING that will end a situation faster than for the perps to think that they are about to get shot. But don't stand there and act hesitant or give them the impression that you will not follow through.

Microgunner
July 14, 2010, 02:50 PM
I imagine responses to this loose survey question would fall into one of the following bins:

1) Pulled gun, opponent ceased, no fire.

2) Pulled gun, opponent continued, fire to stop.

4) Pulled gun, opponent continued, fire failed to stop, citizen injured/killed.

3) Didn't pull gun, opponent ceased, no action.

5) Didn't pull gun, opponent continued, physical action stop.

6) Didn't pull gun, opponent continued, physical action failed to stop, citizen injured/killed.

#4 and #6 would not likely respond to your thread if they read it, particularly if they were deceased.

#2 would not likely respond because generally it is not something they want to talk about, considering the legal issues. If you've read the TFL archives going back to 1998, you'll find scant few postings from people sharing their personal story about stopping an attack with gunfire.

#1, #3 and #5 people may post about, either because they want to inform others, are proud of their successful defense, or some other reason.

We could further break this down into opponent types (home intruders, rapists, street muggers/druggies, car jackers, bar/public house patrons, terrorists, etc).

Regardless, while from a self-selective community of gun enthusiasts (such as TFL) might make for an interesting read, it does not sufficiently provide significant (statistical or otherwise) evidence for the formulation, validation or verification of tactics theory. In the end, gun enthusiasts will come to the same conclusions:

1) Having it is better than not having it.
2) Using it responsibly is of key importance.


And in what way does this answer the OP's question. If you have no "anecdotal information" to offer why are you responding?

threegun
July 14, 2010, 03:43 PM
Microgunner, Does BookerT remind you of someone? Initials DA.

BookerT, What this study will likely prove wrong is your assertion that the aggressive act of pulling a firearm on someone will somehow trigger their cornered animal aggressive response. In your books perhaps you are correct to assume as much however on the street most folks run, stop, comply, or retreat when faced with an armed opponent.

After further discussions with Microgunner I have to change his incident to the comply category because the bad guy stopped the physical attack on his vehicle although he continued his verbal assault. So now everyone that I know who has pulled a firearm on someone has gotten compliance.

Microgunner
July 14, 2010, 03:47 PM
Microgunner, Does BookerT remind you of someone? Initials DA.
No Duh! If it ain't him it's his first cousin.

threegun
July 14, 2010, 03:54 PM
No Duh! If it ain't him it's his first cousin

Check out the dates Micro.......wow what a coincidence LOL.

Blue Steel
July 16, 2010, 12:12 PM
In my former life as a police officer, armed suspects who were confronted either surrendered or fled. I never fired on a suspect, and the only time I directly received incoming fire was during a vehicle pursuit with suspect shooting over his shoulder while driving.

Here are couple examples that come to mind:

1. Man with gun call. Arrive to find suspect in the street with a Smith & Wesson Model 39 stuck in his front waist band. Suspect was slow to respond to verbal commands, but finally surrendered. Subsequent questioning revealed he was depressed and considering suicide by cop, but was afraid to draw.

2. Disorderly conduct call, suspect waving a brick around and yelling out in the street. Suspect dropped the brick as I arrived, but witnesses in the area alerted me to the suspect being armed with a knife as I exited my car. Suspect was challenged at gun point to drop the knife and immediately complied.

3. Shots fired call. Partner and I responded to a nearby flop house, and suspect located just inside an open garage door. Shiny metal flash in his hand, which was lowered to his side. Quickly identified the weapon as a 12-inch butcher knife and not a firearm. Suspect was challenged at gunpoint, and after some brief posturing he dropped the knife.


I've always been able to avoid, evade, or de-escalate trouble when off-duty or as a regular citizen. Awareness is the first weapon in my arsenal.

bamboo spear
July 16, 2010, 05:34 PM
I've never been in that situation, but I remember an incident clearly from when I was a kid. We lived in San Antonio but were in Houston visiting family, and my dad always carried when we took roadtrips.

We were at a 4 way stop with 4 Stop signs. Just our truck and a truck full of Hispanic guys that looked like construction workers (the pickup bed probably had about 4 guys in it). No other cars around. We stopped, waited, and started to go. They come up, approach, and roll through their Stop sign. My dad loves the horn, so he lets them have it. They stop in the middle of the intersection and everyone glares at us. My dad waits, I'm frozen with fear in the passenger seat, and one of the guys stands up like he's going to jump out of the bed of the truck.

In a heartbeat, my dad reaches in front of me, opens the glove compartment, and has his Colt Python .357 magnum out, and is holding it casually on the steering wheel. They drove away, and that was that. Funny thing is, my dad doesn't even remember it, I guess it was in the early or mid 80's or so. I started calling him Frank Castle after that lol. He didn't know who that was, so I said, "he's like Mack Bolan". He thought that was funny.

mjm
July 16, 2010, 05:54 PM
Awareness is the first weapon in my arsenal.


Well said!

jerryd
July 17, 2010, 09:31 AM
I work as a Alarm Response Officer and work with local PDs our company SOP is that if you pull you weapon let the PD know, most of the time they say ok and thats it, unless they are there with you and and you have a burg in custody, then they write up a report, sn of weapon blue card no and all that BS, other than that nothing else. But if you are ccw and you pull your piece its best to call PD and report it so they cant say a man pulled a gun on me and you get in Deep S--t !!!!!:)

Microgunner
July 17, 2010, 10:15 AM
But if you are ccw and you pull your piece its best to call PD and report it so they cant say a man pulled a gun on me and you get in Deep S--t !!!!!

Why couldn't they say "a man pulled a gun on me"?

LordTio3
July 19, 2010, 06:26 AM
Why couldn't they say "a man pulled a gun on me"?

I think his intended response was,

'If you pull your weapon and brandish it as a civilian, it would be prudent of you to notify the police. It would look much better for your side of the story if you would have already explained the situation in-depth and your throught process if/when the other party calls the police to say that some guy pulled a gun on him for 'no particular reason'. In the latter case, you are under immediate scrutiny and must explain yourself to get out of the hot water that you're currently in, rather than having already bypassed said alarm-state.'

Correct me if I'm wrong.

~LT

threegun
July 19, 2010, 11:34 AM
I agree that it is better to be the first reporter at least I feel like it is. Still I didn't called the PO PO when it happened to me.

Microgunners case does prove that law enforcement can be open minded even if we decide not to call.

Hammerstrike44
July 21, 2010, 10:15 AM
I posted a horrible experience I had when two intruders fired on me and I was shot and had to kill both in my living room. I am a Texas attorney and know the law as far as the statutes and common law exceptions to carrying a loaded gun. We have people in the rural parts of our state who carry a loaded rifle and shot-gun in their gun racks in plain sight. My state legislature passed a law concerning self-defense and the use of firearms to defend yourself and your property. It's called the "castle doctrine" and allows you to use deadly force to defend your person, in the home, even if the intruder is unarmed and fleeing. It has been extended by judicial interpretation to defense of your car-as an extension of your home. In addition, you can use deadly force to defend your property. We have a myriad of cases where someone has a barn or warehouse and is regularly burglarized. You can actually lay in wait and ambush someone who is stealing personal property. Since this law has passed, two skip tracers, or as they are called in the television series "Dog the Bounty Hunter" bounty hunters, or as we attorney's call them bond agents, have been killed trying to apprehend someone who has an active warrant from failure to appear. In both cases the bond agents ran up on the fugitive without warning, failed to identify themselves and were killed. Both were no-billed by the grand jury. We have had more than 10 persons killed attempting to repossess motor vehicles and none of the shooters were indicted. The message from the District Attorney in the most populous county in Texas [Houston, Harris County] was, if your a repo man, you better be quicker, or don't hook up to someone's pick-up in the middle of the night. Now I stated earlier and I will again, even if I am armed ( I have a concealed weapons permit ) and I am confronted by a mugger, even after my home was broken into while my wife and young son were home with me, I am giving you my wallet. Additionally, had I not had the burglars fire through my bedroom door, they could have carried off my flatscreen and DVD player, while I took cover in my bedroom with my Remington Marine 870 tactical 12 gauge. However, when one of them fired through my door after I yelled "I'm armed and on the phone with the police, you better get what you got and leave." I knew I had to enter that room and do what I had to do. My wife and son were on the master bedroom closet floor not 60 feet away and I had to stop those men from entering my bedroom. I did not want to shoot anyone. I regret to this day I had to go into the bedroom and kill two strangers. I do not remember shooting, chambering other rounds, and cutting on and off my tactical light, I did not know I was shot by a 40 cal Taurus semi-auto until the Police arrived and I was in the closet with my wife and child. And I saw first-hand what 12 gauge 00 Buck, chambered in 3 inch magnum does to human flesh and bone. My home was destroyed and my insurance spent $60,000 in repair and replacement. I spend two weeks in the hospital and my wife had to clean up the mess. We had to buy new furniture, sheetrock in five rooms, replace carpeting and my bedroom door. Still, I would not kill anyone over a TV or DVD player. My ONLY concern was my wife and son. I had a CWP before the event and still carry. I do not brandish the firearm ever and would never pull it out unless I had no other choice. If the aggressor retreated, he would do so in peace. As I have stated before, I am "situationally aware" and would not allow myself in my present surroundings to be in a situation where talking could not defuse the situation. I will and have retreated from confrontation. I have nothing to prove and carrying a weapon is a responsibility and does not embolden me. I was a professional boxer until I met my wife and have the option to use non-lethal force and have done so when talking fails. But I will say this again, if I pull my firearm or raise my shotgun in defense of myself or my family, and you pose a continuing threat, I will kill you. I will agonize and doubt myself as before. But I will not hesitate. I have never had to raise a weapon before that night, thank God. When I do, I do not point it at you to "scare" you, or make you rethink your situation, I do so because I am going to shoot you and I intend to kill you. Agree or disagree. Change the hypo all you want, there are infinite situations, degrees of threat, attack, retreat, duty for you to retreat, etc.... If I pull my weapon, I intend to kill you. Pistols are not made for fun and relaxation. I have other firearms that are infinately more fun to shoot and hunt with. My pistols are made to kill other human beings. I have practiced for that purpose, and will fire it if I pull it.....period. I am an avid firearms collector and can promise you, 9 out of 10 people, given a choice, want to fire my AK and AR platforms. I collect bolt action rifles. I have many rare and expensive shotguns. However I only have six pistols. A pair of stainless steel Colt .357 Pythons which were a gift from my father when I graduated from law school, my wife's 40 cal Glock, a Colt 1911, my concealed weapon of choice a Barretta 9mm, and my father's trooper pistol from his State Trooper career. I'm done.

threegun
July 21, 2010, 03:31 PM
My pistols are made to kill other human beings. I have practiced for that purpose, and will fire it if I pull it.....period.

So if the bad guy sees you smoking leather with your pistol and drops his gun while screaming like a little girl you still gonna fire???

titaniumchip
July 21, 2010, 06:26 PM
As LEO had multiple opportunities in shoot don't shoot scenarios always error on don't shoot side due to agencies that were famous for hanging cops out to dry in shootings. When I worked narcotics not much gun play because everyone expected the other guy to be strapped.

mtnbkr
July 21, 2010, 06:35 PM
They gave me their wallet and watches, as instructed. Then I ran off.

Glenn Bartley
July 21, 2010, 10:27 PM
If you are going to pull your gun out of your holster, you damn well better pull the trigger (unless you are a trained LEO). Otherwise, you have no business extracting metal from leather.

Oh come on now, that just ain't so. I am a trained LEO, well trained at that. I was also a firearms' instructor for about 13-14 years. are you telling me that if I was not a trained LEO, and heard someone break into my home, in the middle of the dark of night, that I would have no business to arm myself with pistol in hand (as in out of its holster) and that if I had pulled it out and then saw a prowler/intruder I had better 'damn well pull the trigger' even if the guy saw me put up his hands and said I surrender? Absolutes about what you must do just don't work each and every time.

As for me having drawn my gun from my holster I have done it many - many times while on entries and during other arrest situations.

I have also done it on the spur of the moment during life or death situations. One time I fired and missed, had broken glass in my eyes, but the bad guys fled.

Another time pulled it on a guy coming at me with a knife, even though he was drunk, he stopped.

Another time, I stuck a gun barrel into a bad guy's mouth. A bystander jumped me and pulled my arm down because he thought I was going to kill the bad guy. Maybe -maybe not, I was pretty badly beaten and very woozy from several hits to my head with a club. He and 3 or 4 other of his buddies had been in the process of beating me bloody until I was able to get a gun out of my car. It was in the car because I had stopped for a beer. never even had more than a sip and these jokers started harassing me so I left the bar. They followed and jumped me. He and the main other guy were arrested and went to trial. He was acquitted the main guy convicted.

Another time I fired a warning shot that actually parted the guys hair. Net effect, he and about 15 to 20 other guys who were about to try to beat me to death fled back into Mexico. Had they not - well I would have had one shot less but still would have had 5 and a couple of complete reloads. Would not likely do that again, next time I would probably shoot the guy under the exact same circumstances but I was young and a green-horn at the time.

Another time, I shot the guy, he had no chance to react other than to turn and flee. Shot into his thigh, came out of the leg, through the ball-sack, out of the ball-sack, into his other thigh and down the bone toward the knee where, as far as I know, it is still lodged if the dirtbag is still alive. That was about 22 or 23 years ago and I figure someone probably killed him by now or that he has OD'd by now.

A couple to a few other times, but those are enough to illustrate, no you do not need to pull the trigger each time your gun clears leather. Sometimes the threat stops once you draw or display the weapon. The thing is you had best be continuously assessing the situation and then determining how to act based on your assessments and knowledge to know if you should fire once the weapon is in hand and ready to be fired. That way, should you ever actually have to shoot someone, you will be more likely to have been justified than to have simply fired a shot as a reaction of you having drawn your weapon. Don't ever believe that the threat cannot be stopped without the need to fire a shot. That is a good way to get yourself tried for murder.

All the best,
Glenn B

91slicktop
July 28, 2010, 02:23 AM
Thank you hammerstrike for sharing your story.

I just became a CCW holder and i carry when i go anywhere. I'm a home owner, and myself have a family (Wife and a little boy).

I have a Full sized XDM .40 cal that is my carry weapon at this time. When I carry i have both 16 round magazines loaded with hollow points. At home it remains in my Office ready to go (But hidden). Also in the office closet is a loaded magazine for my GSG-5 and the GSG-5 itself.

In my Bedroom, within arms reach of my side of the bed, Is my 12 gauge Mossberg 500T loaded with Remmington home defense shells.

I always wonder what I would do if someone broke into my home. I would be armed with my 12 gauge when i encountered them..If i see a weapon or an attempt to grab a weapon. I will fire. If I see no weapon, no attempt to grab a weapon and they are submissive/run, I will allow them to leave and then make the appropriate calls to police.

As for a story pulling a weapon on someone..I do not have a story (yet) and hopefully it will remain that way. However i was recently told a story by a friend of mine who carries...and i will share his: This is located in Florida.

He was at his apt. and it was late one evening. He stepped out front and saw a girl leaning on his car and ******* in the parking lot (He has a very nice car). He proceeds to yell at the girl, "Hey Hoe, Get the F**k off my car." She yells some comments back and then 5 guys get out of a car nearby and surround my friend. a few of them removed their belts and wrapped them around their hands (Remember this). He had his jacket on, with his XD .40 Compact on his side. One of the guys got in his face and started shoving him. Firmly with one hand out holding the attacker away he kept repeating "Please step back, You dont want to do this". My friends other hand was on his weapon, aimed at the attacker. The attacker kept pressing forward and my friend backed slowly to his apt door with the 5 men following him up the stairs to his door step. He went to retreat into his apartment, and one of the men Held his door open, and stepped into his apartment. At this point, my friend drew his weapon to a low ready position and stated "One more step, and I will shoot you." The attacked looked at the gun, then my friend and said "You think im afraid of a BB gun?", To which my friend Replied, "One more step, and you are going to find out what it is". The attacker retreated, my friend closed/locked his door, and proceeded to call the PD and inform them of what happened incase they decided to call the police and say my friend had brandished a weapon. The police said the moment the attacker(s) removed their belts and wrapped them around their nuckles he could have drawn/fired, and again would have been justified when the individual held the door open and stepped into his apt.


just because you might be JUSTIFIED to pull your weapon and USE it, Doesn't mean you HAVE to.

threegun
July 28, 2010, 05:58 AM
just because you might be JUSTIFIED to pull your weapon and USE it, Doesn't mean you HAVE to.


Still more proof that you don't have to shoot every time you draw. Try to be justified, certainly be ready to use it if no other option remains, but by all means don't shoot when you pull if they quit.

Xyas
July 30, 2010, 01:12 AM
Hammerstrike, thank you for that horrendous story (horrendous because you had to, and have to continue to live with it). Thanks to you though, your family is safe because of what you did. I pray that something like that never happens to you again, and I also pray that you don't live each day second guessing or having nightmares or worrying about those two people. Your child and wife are safe and alive thanks to you. God bless them and you for keeping them alive.

eddyb74
July 30, 2010, 09:31 AM
Hammerstrike, do Texas Attorneys use paragraphs? I would like to read your post. Not have my eyeballs explode.

LordTio3
July 30, 2010, 10:09 AM
So, if the 5 attackers did not previously know or have the intellect to deduce where he lived from where he was coming from, he lead 5 admittedly violent and aggressive assailants INTO his HOME before ever drawing his weapon or establishing a solid threat of lethal force?

Boy, I hope they don't hang out there often/hold a grudge/attack him in his sleep/rob, vandalize, assault, or murder him in his own home at a later date/jump him with a weapon more lethal than a leather belt/attack his family when he's not home/etc...

If 5 assailants threaten you and begin to surround you, you arm yourself. If you don't, you're stupid. Even if you don't happen to have a gun or knife on you as you should; you should look quickly for a rock/bottle, take off YOUR belt/jacket, pick up ANYTHING you can use to bludgeon, throw, cut, or stab. Outnumbered 5 to 1 I'm not taking any chances and I sure wouldn't let myself get surrounded by them before I did anything to indicate my intent to defend myself other than continue to question their conviction to my impending assault.

I also don't exactly understand this line:
Firmly with one hand out holding the attacker away he kept repeating "Please step back, You don't want to do this". My friends other hand was on his weapon, aimed at the attacker.

How would he have a "holstered" weapon "aimed at the attacker"?

In this case, your friend is a shining example of the adage, "it's better to be lucky than good." These 5 guys that were surrounding him could have probably taken him out at any time before he could draw his weapon and get a shot off. Surely before he could get 5 off that all hit them individually directly in the head; most likely from beyond his peripheral before he even noticed it (if that was their intent). Too many tactical mistakes here to count make this a shining example of what NOT to do. For future reference, this doesn't exactly paint your friend in a favorable light other than his extreme moral apprehension to threaten or take a life- (which is admirable in it's own sense)- at a marked increase in the threat to his own life.

JMHO,
~LT

Willie Lowman
July 30, 2010, 10:39 AM
I won't retell my story as the thread I started about it got about 3 pages of idiots crying about how I had screwed up by not taking the lives of two drunk kids.

There are NO ABSOLUTES in any given threat scenario that tell me you shoot when you draw no matter what. And there are plenty of incidents of the weapon presentation ending a dangerous situation peacefully.

Yep.

MonsterB
July 30, 2010, 12:47 PM
LordTeo, I was thinking the same thing when I read that story...I love the part about holding back the other guy with one hand....thats hilarious....anyways, this is a great thread...

Ozzieman
July 30, 2010, 01:46 PM
Only once, man stole my neighbor’s car and less than 10 hours later was in a gas station less than 3 blocks (residential aria) from where it was stolen.
I never actually pointed the gun at him, I only showed it to him and walked him into the gas station and asked the owner to call police. He became very agreeable with my demands.
The only person that gave me any trouble was the man’s sister, but another person in the store that could have made a football tackle helped me hold the man in the store.
The sister left without the car. Some of the things she called me was very unlady like.
One of the neighbor’s boys later asked what I would have done if he would have started running. I disappointed them by saying “wave goodbye.”

threegun
August 5, 2010, 07:46 AM
One of the neighbor’s boys later asked what I would have done if he would have started running. I disappointed them by saying “wave goodbye.”

Disappointed by the proper decision. Its funny how emotion plays into situations at times.

I have a DVR camera system at my home. Someone had tossed a large lime rock from our landscape at our house causing minor damage to the porch floor and paint. It turned out to be a group of youths who had also moved my neighbors garbage can to my front yard and one of them entered my property and checked my truck door to see if it was open. We were on vacation. My wife was very "emotional" LoL and wanted to lay in wait to ambush them.

Someone invades or steals your property and or damages it and it is very emotional. Cooler heads and restraint is a must when bringing firearms into the picture.

Microgunner
August 5, 2010, 08:29 AM
Cooler heads and restraint is a must when bringing firearms into the picture.

After working with you for what now, 16 years, I can say, with great comfort BTW, you'll be the first to clear leather / plastic when the situation gets ticklish. I prefer to partner with someone who doesn't need to mull it over first. So I don't know about all this restraint talk. LOL.

Tabdog
August 5, 2010, 09:11 AM
An old guy comes to my door. He wants to use my phone to
call the cops. He said this big guy cut his phone line and the
line of a young lady that he was stalking. The old man was
trying to help the girl out and the bad guy was out to get
his way. I new the old guy and did not want to see him get
hurt.

As he called the cops, I pocketed a 9mm KelTec P11.

We went out side. When we got out there, the young lady
came out.

Then, from the dark bushes, out comes this huge guy, about
280 pounds and at least 6'5". He looked 10' tall to me.

He started cussing at the old guy.

Then he started at the old like he was going to hunt him!!!

I pulled my pistol and cocked it.

That sound stopped the guy dead in his tracks.

I never actually pointed it at him because he stopped.

He then cussed and pointed his finger at the old guy and said
he was going to get him!!!

He walked across the street and mounted a big Harley and
thundered off.

The police showed up and we could still hear that loud Harley
in the distance.

I got out of there. I did not have a permit at that time.

Sense then, I have been attacked while metal detecting. I did
not have a weapon, but I defended myself with my digger. But
I was bruised and out of commission for a while. If I had had
even a 22, I could have kept myself from being hurt. he was
just a junky lookin for a fix.

That changed my opinion about carrying a weapon.

I also realize I am not Dirty Harry. There may be a time that a
person will need lots of stopping power, but in my every day
life, a 32 auto will do just fine 99.9% of the time. Running
works more often than that.

Considering I am 61 and only needed it twice, (real bad), I see
little need to weight myself down with a slab of iron.

I carry most of the time now. I keep a bigger gun in my car.

I keep a 12 gauge Remington pump at home, as well as a revolver
and more if I need it.

Take care,

Tabdog

TJH3781
August 5, 2010, 10:17 AM
P11 = DAO; cannot be cocked.

Tabdog
August 5, 2010, 10:56 AM
I did not have a round in the barrel,

So I had to cock it to get a round
ready to fire.

OK, so I did not say it right,

sue me,

Tabdog

Eagle0711
August 29, 2010, 10:54 PM
I have carried daily for 30 years as a private citizen. I have never pulled a gun on anyone. Can you imagine what the other person could do? He could dare you to shoot him and taunt you. If you shoot, you go to prison unless you are on firm legal ground. If you don't he makes a fool out of you. Think it over real well. Just because you can doesn't mean you have to. Taking someones life is a big deal, just make sure your'e ready to live with it. Best ,Lyle

LordTio3
August 31, 2010, 07:06 AM
Can you imagine what the other person could do? He could dare you to shoot him and taunt you. If you shoot, you go to prison unless you are on firm legal ground. If you don't he makes a fool out of you.

Would you rather be branded a fool by an idiot, or a murderer by a jury of your peers? Not really a difficult question if you ask me.

That being said, your question is based on flawed assumptions. If you have had probable cause to rightfully and legally brandish your firearm with the intent to establish a threat of lethal force, then you are legally justified in using legal force. You don't pull your gun on an unarmed person unless they are a real threat to you.

So, including this information in your scenario, you have established that the person is either armed and dangerous, or otherwise poses an honest and articulable threat to you. You have established this and have drawn your weapon with him now at gunpoint.

Personally, I could not care less what he says, who he insults, how loud he is, or what language he's using as long as he complies with my demands which can be as simple as, "Don't come any closer and put that weapon down." If he doesn't have a gun as well, you have him by the balls and he knows it. Anything he says afterwords is petty and unimportant. It would be like yelling insults and threats at a Secret Service Agent. Yah, you might get in a good quip, but he has the right to detain you for 48 hours without cause. Which end would you rather be on? Personally I'd rather be behind the trigger.

If he does anything at that point to increase the already present threat to you, you are legally justified in shooting him, because he's an absolute idiot who either wants to die, or is honestly willing to bet his life that a stranger that he knows nothing about doesn't have it in him to pull the trigger. Don't give him the chance of being right. Protect yourself.

JMHO,
~LT

Don P
September 11, 2010, 02:22 PM
I pulled my gun, pulled the trigger, and the flag poped out of the barrel that read BANG!:eek:

Amin Parker
September 11, 2010, 04:51 PM
Iv been there too many times.

I have been in countless armed encounters and have shot 8 people, 2 died on the scene. All these actions i have been charged and i was found to have acted in self defence.

I have learned the following very quickly. You pull your gun and stare at the bad guy you making a big mistake as a private citizen with no back up. Bad guys can be smart, in South Africa you will lose your gun and your life in a matter of seconds because the only thing they are thinking about at that point is to take your gun. They feel that if you have not pulled the trigger yet you have no balls and will probably not.

Learn to draw and fire fast. Give them verbal warnings if the situation allows. If you feel that you are in danger and you need to take control or face injury or death, draw and shoot immediately. Stop them in their tracks.

Under gun point they will tell you all kind of things and the bad guy or his friends will come close until you are in a very bad situation tactically. His " friend" will tell you to put the gun away and that he will take him home or make some excuse like being drunk etc and when you least expect it you will be in a struggle to hold onto your gun.

I have made that mistake but fortunately managed to win but it could go very wrong easily.

Run away or pull the trigger. There is nothing in between. Bad guys only freeze while at gun point in the movies

TylerD45ACP
September 11, 2010, 04:51 PM
And the guy on the other end crapped his pants. :barf::(

ebsterdog
September 11, 2010, 04:58 PM
This is an interesting discussion. I noticed that you made no mention of the perpetrator being armed. I've personally never given thought to pulling a gun on an unarmed person, nor do I think anyone should. Aren't we guilty of bringing a gun to a fist fight if we do?
I had a similar encounter with an unarmed, unstable person at a filling station years ago while armed. The guy decided that I needed to be beat up for taking his fuel pump. No amount of verbal persuasion could change his mind and before I knew it, the fight was on. Thankfully I was able to hold my own until he was tired enough to stop throwing punches and curse me instead (by the way, the sticks and stones thing really is true).I got back in my car, found another filling station, the wounds healed in a week or so and life went on.
Making the decision to pull my weapon in a confrontation means not doing so will put my life in immediate danger (life, not reputation). This is the definition of self defense with a handgun as I understand it. Please provide more details about your experience and share your thoughts, I'd like to see it from your point of view.
thanks, eb

TylerD45ACP
September 11, 2010, 05:05 PM
Self preservation comes before ALL else. Thats the bottom line.

TimberWolf7.62
September 11, 2010, 05:14 PM
One time I was driving and 2 gentlemen pulled up alongside me, obviously peeved at me. For what, I don't know, but I am a fairly aggressive driver. Anyway, they started pulling over into my lane, trying to run me off the road. At best, I would have gone into the curb, at worst, head on into oncoming traffic. Then the cars in their lane braked but my lane was still going, so I got ahead of them.

They soon came back alongside me and started coming into my lane again. I pulled my .45 and extended my arm in their direction whlie keeping the pistol below the window so they couldn't see it yet. I glanced in front to make sure no idiots were stopping for no apparent reason, then back at the guys. The passenger had apparently read my body language and figured I was about to pop a pistol up, pointed at them (which I was) and I saw him grab the driver's shirt and yell at him. He hit the brakes and I kept going.

Just another day's commute in Houston.

TylerD45ACP
September 11, 2010, 05:35 PM
Good Move. I probably would have done something similar. What kind of 45, my personal fav the 1911?

TimberWolf7.62
September 11, 2010, 05:37 PM
Of course! :D
Para P13 loaded with Hydra-Shoks.

TylerD45ACP
September 11, 2010, 05:44 PM
Nice. I prefer single stacks myself but Para's are awesome. A P12 is what got me into 1911's at 9yrs. old. I have a S&W fullize 45ACP that is awesome. Im looking to get a smaller carry 1911 though(Colt Defender/STI Ranger II?). If those guys tried anthing by the way they would be swiss cheese lol how close, were they on your right or left?

TimberWolf7.62
September 11, 2010, 07:46 PM
They were on the right, the passenger's side. I'd have shown them the weapon first, given them about 2 seconds to back off, before I put one in the driver's chest. That would likely have discouraged him. I couldn't have missed, our vehicles were almost touching.

I have 4 or 5 1911's, the smallest being a P10 for Summer concealed carry.

TylerD45ACP
September 11, 2010, 09:19 PM
Cool. I thought they were on the right for some reason. Im guessing your a righty because most are. You did the right thing getting it ready for action with the piece. Im sure you knew what you had to do and would have blasted the driver, that would hopefully deter the other guy, maybe hit him ;). I think that was a nice move especially in a moving vechile it makes it difficult. 230gr. Hydra's? Any load 185 and above are the ones to go with. Really light for special purpose.

mygila
September 11, 2010, 10:29 PM
Last time I pulled a gun I hesitated because I thought he might be a KID and he was going out the window. To shoot would have been in his back. Actually, he was 41. His partner at a blind corner of my living room put a 38 (158 gr.RNL) in my lower gut. Never again will I hesitate, even if he's wearing dypers.
Mygila

WANT A LCR 22LR
September 11, 2010, 11:14 PM
One time I was driving and 2 gentlemen pulled up alongside me, obviously peeved at me. For what, I don't know, but I am a fairly aggressive driver.

Houston, we have a problem.

It is doubtful that a random person is purposely going to make a concerted effort to "run another random person off the road". It's pretty obvious something was done to provoke their reaction and I'm guessing if someone did to you as you had done to them, you would chase them down.

A fire arm is supposed to be a " get me out of this bad situation I've found my self being forced into " and not a " I've done something to provoke someone and now I need a escape route "

markj
September 13, 2010, 01:57 PM
I'd have shown them the weapon first, given them about 2 seconds to back off, before I put one in the driver's chest. That would likely have discouraged him.

Bubba is waiting for you........in a nice warm cozy cell.

Cant belive some of ther stuff posted here. Cartoon network down again?

TimberWolf7.62
September 13, 2010, 08:18 PM
WANT A LCR 22LR, as I stated, I really don't know what I did to provoke them, maybe cut them off in traffic or whatever, but it doesn't matter. Nothing I did to them could justify them attempting to run me off the road, which is assault with a deadly weapon, using the vehicle as the weapon.

markj, I don't know what part you don't understand, the part about their ADW or my ability to hit a target that was about 6 feet away.

DogRomeo
September 14, 2010, 07:29 PM
Today was my 1st of 3 days of an armed security officer safety class & the majority of today's debates all had to do with "what if" when guns get involved. The lesson I took from the class (taught by a former cop, security officer company owner, navy man & 15 years as an instructor) was that more often than not, pulling our guns out will get us in trouble with the law. We weren't all that impressed with the course book because it was in direct contrast with some things we all thought to be true, perhaps to LEGALLY cover our 6. Basically, it boiled down to if you can't get away & call 911, you can pull your gun out.
Funny how walking around Iraq with a gun in hand all the time changes one's perception of "When can I go for my gun?" :rolleyes:

markj
September 15, 2010, 03:43 PM
I'd have shown them the weapon first, given them about 2 seconds to back off, before I put one in the driver's chest. That would likely have discouraged him.

That part. Do that and you will more than likly go to jail. What part of that dont you understand? Cant just go shooting someone in the car next to you just cause you thought he was a threat.

TimberWolf7.62
September 15, 2010, 05:05 PM
I didn't "think" he was a threat. He was. He was very deliberately trying to run me into oncoming traffic, while looking at me and cussing. In fact, he tried it twice. There simply wasn't any question. It wasn't some idiot yaking on a cell phone and weaving across lanes.

Speed limit along there is 40, with a lot of traffic going faster = 80 to 90 mph closing speed. I wasn't going to let him push me into that. If you want to if put in the same situation, go ahead.

You'll notice (since you quoted it) that I intended to show him the weapon first, thus giving him a chance to back off. If he insisted on going ahead after that point, then he was obviously very determined to do me bodily harm.

OldMarksman
September 15, 2010, 05:24 PM
Nothing I did to them could justify them attempting to run me off the road, which is assault with a deadly weapon, using the vehicle as the weapon. That's probably not how their criminal action would be classified.

I didn't "think" he was a threat. He was. He was very deliberately trying to run me into oncoming traffic, while looking at me and cussing. In fact, he tried it twice. There simply wasn't any question. If you had fired, you would next be in the position of having to provide at least some evidence on each of the following points:


The person had the ability, the opportunity, and the specific intention to kill you or cause you serious bodily harm at that moment, and
To save yourself from death or serious injury, you had no alternative but to fire your gun.


Failing on any one of the above would result in criminal conviction and make you liable for damages caused by the moving car of the man you had injured.

It would be an uphill battle at best, and you can bet that there would be contradictory testimony and that the forensic evidence would be unlikely to help you.

There is VIP training available on what to do in such a situation, and it involves using the car, not a gun. It is extremely expensive, and may not be available to everyone.

TimberWolf7.62
September 16, 2010, 08:01 AM
True enough, but then some or all of that would be true in almost any shooting.

Also keep in mind that Texas law is fairly forgiving when it comes to shooting someone - you can shoot to keep someone from stealing your property, for example: http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/7199891.html
The above is not an isolated case and more than likely will not result in charges.

Dr Killdeer
September 16, 2010, 09:14 AM
Maybe police stories don’t count, but I came close taking out a perp and it was a scary incident.

Years ago, I was working an A line, midnight to 8 AM when I got behind a car with out of state plates driving at 30 MPH in a 55 MPH zone on a state road. I ran the plate and it came back a hit. “File one”, stolen vehicle.

I called for backup and lit him up. He pulled over, got out of the car and refused to comply with my orders to show me his hands. He appeared to be concealing something, so I broke the shotgun loose. As a cop, your first instincts tell you he has a gun.

I dispensed with further “PPP” or proper police procedures and I said, “If you flinch, you’re dead.” I had a bead on him and I extended the barrel beyond the spot light so he could see his fate.

He finally complied and threw the object into the front seat of the vehicle and put his hands in the air. When backup arrived, we took him down. Turns out, he was wanted for felony assault in his home state and he was driving the victim’s car. All he had was a pellet gun. He wasn’t all that bright, but he knew the difference between a pellet gun and a shotgun.
Good thing, because he was about 6 lbs of finger pressure from eternity

markj
September 16, 2010, 03:24 PM
I didn't "think" he was a threat. He was. He was very deliberately trying to run me into oncoming traffic, while looking at me and cussing. In fact, he tried it twice. There simply wasn't any question. It wasn't some idiot yaking on a cell phone and weaving across lanes.


I gotta ask, dont yer brakes work? In the situation you describe, a gun isnt even a solution. Good luck with that, remember this. Texas executes more people each year than any other state, do you want to chance it? Find another way out of the situation that doesnt involve shooting the guy, in my state showing the gun like you did is called brandishing and could land you in jail.

woodguru
September 16, 2010, 04:20 PM
Hmmmm.....either it was compliance or the story won't be told here. Lotta compliance goin on though. :D

TimberWolf7.62
September 16, 2010, 04:49 PM
Wrong. In my original post I said "whlie keeping the pistol below the window so they couldn't see it yet", so no brandishing was involved.

And you and OldMarksman can argue it out about using the brakes vs his VIP maneuvers.

OldMarksman
September 16, 2010, 06:23 PM
In the situation you describe, a gun isnt even a solution.
Correct. If one were to fire it and hit the driver, it would only put the allegedly offending car out of control; the chance of hitting an innocent third party (who may also be driving an automobile) is completely unacceptable.

If one were to simply point it, the outcome is unpredictable. There are several possibilities:


The dudes are deterred and back off and disappear;
The passenger pulls and shoots; or
A cellphone call to 911 brings the gendarmes, who find the gun, compare it with the accusers' description, and start a criminal investigation that is likely to lead to prosecution.


I have difficulty imagining any defense of justification attempt more likely to fail. Take a traffic dispute and add a shooting by one driver at the occupants of another car; the defendant's only "evidence" that he believed he was in imminent danger is his word that he was thought the other driver was attempting to force him into oncoming traffic; the testimony of the people in the other car contradicts the testimony of the defendant; and the defendant puts together a story, subject to rigorous cross examination, that using the gun on a crowded roadway was somehow immediately necessary and that it somehow constituted a likely way out of his predicament. Not likely.

I would be somewhat surprised if the defendant even got a favorable jury instruction allowing the jurors to consider self defense.

Nanuk
September 16, 2010, 06:42 PM
I have been an LEO for 32 years, Military, Local and federal. I cannot count the times I have pulled my gun on people. I have never had to shoot anyone, they all complied. I have shot several dogs that failed to comply. I guess that I can be very convincing when the chips are down and there is opportunity to convince someone they are about to make a very bad mistake.

"When in doubt, whip it out"

FM12
September 17, 2010, 12:13 AM
I arrested him for stealing the car he was driving and took his and his buddies asses to jail!:eek:

Powderman
September 17, 2010, 06:12 AM
Did I? Yep.

What happened? Bad guys turned into arrestees after eating pavement or dirt.

Have I ever pulled the trigger? Only, thank God, on the range and in the simulators, both FATS and live fire.

I have been told that the business end of a 1911 pistol looks like a BIG pipe. One guy must have had sharp eyes--he said he could SEE the nasty end of the 230 grain HydraShok in the barrel. He said he ALMOST crapped his pants.

Since he saved me the trouble of cleaning out the back seat of the patrol unit, I thanked him.

LordTio3
September 17, 2010, 08:31 AM
I really don't want to help this thread get any more off-topic, but in an effort to quell this discussion of the traffic incident, please allow me to offer a little something.

The OP of the situation was driving beside someone who was being aggressive with the placement of their vehicle. The OP observed this as a threat to force him into oncoming traffic and got his gun ready without brandishing or shooting.

Here is what did NOT happen:
The cars didn't make contact; which clearly and difinitively states that the other driver's intent was not to force him into oncoming traffic, but to make his disapproval and frustration known through an implicit threat.
The OP did not have to apply directional force in order to prevent himself from hitting other vehicles. Thus, he did not have to defend himself by force, thus no application of force was justified.

Think of it as standing on the platform of a subway station with an approaching train. You are standing 5 feet from the edge of the platform and a large fellow approaches and stands right behind you and gets into a low-base stance. You interpret this as him possibly intending to push you onto the tracks as the train comes, so you turn to confront him. But he quickly turns and leaves. He didn't grab you or make any action of pushing you toward the tracks that had to be countered with force. He was just there and very suspicious.

I believe it to be the concensus here that pulling your firearm on this driver would have been a very bad idea. In situations such as these, you are already weilding a very powerful weapon that should be used to exhaustion before firing a gun from a moving vehicle. If this gentleman tried to force you into oncoming traffic though vehicular contact, you would want both hands on the steering wheel to help you force your way back to safety anyway.

Besides... hitting your brakes and taking a few seconds to get some distance would have definitely been the correct and most harmless solution to an escalating problem. When weilding a firearm, your intent is not to use it, but to eliminate the situation that has made its presence necessary. Sometimes using it is the only way to accomplish this; but a non-violent outcome is Always the top priority.



~LT

WANT A LCR 22LR
September 17, 2010, 08:43 PM
On the traffic incident.

What many are missing here is that TW7.62 likely isn't a "victim" but the aggressor. He admits to being a aggressive driver and admits that he might have done something to get the incident rolling. What's frightening is that he doesn't _remember_ what he had done to get things rolling. This tells me he isn't paying attention during driving. If I have a oops in traffic I know it, even if someone does not beep in protest.

But, all through this thread TW7.62 posts are stable,contain no swearing or other " yep, this guy is a yahoo" behavior so I'll at least give him some room.

If he did indeed start the confrontation, just take your lumps, get on with life and stop being a aggressive driver. Being a assertive driver is more effective, working traffic so the aggressive driver gets stuck behind a slow truck and you continue uninhibited. For the record, I get very few if any people honking at me.

FreedomFighter1969
September 21, 2010, 10:13 AM
Was approached by a perp with a knife. I pulled, fired a warning shot, he ran like hell ! If he would have had a gun, I would have just shot him. No warning !

Rifleman1776
September 21, 2010, 11:04 AM
Once got lost in an inner city situation, car broke down with family inside. Was being closed in on by 'gangsta' types with obvious bad intentions. I put window down slightly, waved gun at them, they turned and parted ways.
Another time two guys came into my deer camp with intentions of stealing a deer I had hanging. I opened my coat and showed my pistol. They turned and drove away.
Was followed at night in a very remote area in a National forest for hours. Finally, I pulled over, they stopped too. I stepped into their headlights, showed my pistol, they got in their car and drove away.
BTW, we talk about big calibers and such. Same pistol all three times. A Ruger stainless Super Single Six .22 LR.

ET.
September 21, 2010, 02:07 PM
I've personally never given thought to pulling a gun on an unarmed person, nor do I think anyone should. Aren't we guilty of bringing a gun to a fist fight if we do?

This statement is ludicrous. Your contention that I have to fight a threat with equal force and no more will eventually get me, and anybody else who follows this logic, killed. If a BG is advancing toward me and I tell him to stop & he doesn't then I will pull my gun. I will again tell him to stop right there. If he doesn't then I will fire. My life is threatened by a BG who isn't stopping his advance.

You assume that we have to fight on the BG's terms. What if the BG is trained in martial arts or what if he is armed & we just don't know it yet...Oops. Someone is going to get hurt or die! I was in a car wreck 35 years ago. I don't have the ability to defend myself in a fight other than shooting someone who is advancing on me to do me harm and not stopping when instructed to do so...& that's exactly what I would do... shoot. Plus I do not have the ability to simply run away. My gun is my only defense. I have to rely on it to protect me and my family.

onetime
October 20, 2010, 02:13 AM
i know this thread is a little old, but this is exactly what i was looking for...
i don't own a gun, and was never really interested in owning 1 until recent events, changed my mind about it.

i have a question, hopefully someone can help me with a decision.
i was leaving a shopping center, as i pull up to a stop sign a bum plows into the passenger rear of my car and proceeds to curse and blame me for him crashing his bike to my vehicle. i yelled to him that its his fault to watch where he is going, he turns around and tells me he's going to blow out my tires and pulls out a knife about 10" long. he takes a strike at my tires and pops it, i couldnt go anywhere and he was standing at my drivers side with the knife, my first reaction was to put up the window, which didnt work as fast as i thought... there where witnesses and i told the guy i was calling the cops so he hesitantly turned around and rode off.

my question, if i had a gun, would i have been in the right to extract it?

after i changed the tire, on the way home i kept thinking about it...maybe its not that bad of an idea... not the first time i see a situation where i might need more than the pen i was clinching!

onetime
October 20, 2010, 02:41 AM
another situation i was curious about...

i'm at a fast food drive thru with my girlfriend, i have a clear view of the avenue infront of me. as i'm pulling out of the drive-thru i hear a loud screech and 1 car rear ends another, the guy in the back car (B), jumps out of his car and proceeds to yell at the guy in the front(A), whom also stepped out of his vehicle, calmed thou. (A) tells (B), that its his fault, (B) tells him to wait right there he's gonna show him who's fault it is, and goes to the trunk of the car and pulls out like a freaking saber sword... A hops back in his car and tries to pull away but gets caught in traffic, with the other guy running towards his car with the sword in his hands. (B) gets to the quarter panel of the car and hits the rear door area, in the comotion (B's) wife comes out and tries to go to (A's) passenger window.

so i tell my girl, see this is why its important to have a weapon, im my uneducated opinion i would have brandished my weapon aimed, to shoot. i would have told the guy to put the knife down and stay in his vehicle until the police arrive other wise i shoot!

what do you guys think? i have alot of friends with guns and have some family in law enforcement, i've spoken to them numerous times about it and been to the range and such... my main concered is like a couple of guys posted in this thread, is the risk of getting introuble for not knowing when to brandish a weapon worth getting 1 for safety's sake? i would never want to have to use it but with the way things are getting, people just become more and more wreckless.

markj
October 20, 2010, 02:40 PM
I would move away from that area.

Did you call 911 on the tire? take his license? running into the rear end of a car gets you a ticket here for following to close.....

Spindrift
October 20, 2010, 09:09 PM
This was MANY years ago. I was on my way home from work, merging onto the highway, when the guy behind me decided that I shouldn't have merged in front of him and laid on the horn for an extremely long time. It was a big luxury car. He passed me on the right side and cut into the passing line in front of me. Only problem was, there was only about ten feet between me and the car in front of me and we were traveling about 60 mph. He cut in anyway and I slammed on the brakes sending my dog face first into the dash cutting his lip. The road turned from 2 to 3 lanes and eventually in the natural scheme of things I ended up in front of this guy again, and the traffic, getting closer to the city now, was stopping. So, I may or may not have stopped a bit faster than I had to, and that big luxury car skidded to a stop inches behind me.

My 428 Mach 1 had no AC and my window was down, and I was sitting still in traffic. all of a sudden I see this movement on the grassy median strip, which was extremely large, probably 75 yards across. There is this guy, side stepping up beside my car, out on the median in the grass about 30 feet away, with his 3 piece suit jacket open and his hand inside his jacket. He's coming looking for trouble, but being cautious about it. I didn't see a gun, but his posture and actions sure implied he was holding on to one. I'm thinking NOW he was probably trying to impress somebody in his car, but at the time I was thinking I'm going to get shot at.

There was nowhere for me to go as it was bumper to bumper stopped traffic. I had no LTC then, but fortunately, had been taking my lunch into the woods behind work and crow hunting, and in my back seat was a 12 Ga single shot 3 inch mag.. I reached between the seats and pulled it in front with me. It wasn't loaded, and I don't even know if I had any ammo. But I slid the barrel out the window aiming right at the guy, and I said "Draw."

The answer to your question.

He froze like a deer in the headlights.

The expression on his face changed from "I'm a tough guy" to "I'm SO screwed."

His complexion turned pale.

He started side stepping back toward his car very slowly

That was when I noticed the traffic had already pulled away, and I was 1/4 mile away from that scene 11 seconds later.

I'll never know which one of us was making the bigger bluff, but I know I never really felt any fear, it just all happened so fast, and I was young and stupid.

Onward Allusion
October 20, 2010, 09:30 PM
The group of punks high-tailed it the other way. Should have bought a lottery ticket that day because there were 4 of them and I was with two women.

threegun
So you pulled your gun on someone what happened next???

wyohusker
October 23, 2010, 08:52 AM
Two perps approached me and my son and brandished knives, with my left hand I grabbed my son and put him behind me, my right hand went to my Kahr .45. They stopped as soon as they saw the gun. They left and I called the police.... No one was hurt... Glad I had my CCL and my .45

Big Tom
October 23, 2010, 09:24 AM
I dont carry a gun.....YET! However I always carry a knife or two on me. Their was a time where a bigger person than I (I am 6'2 and around 290lbs) pulled out a knife and told me he was going to kill me ( he must have been about 6'5). He pulls out a blade measuring about 3 1/2 inches. Wouldn't you know, this was the one time I didn't have a knife on me because I had just gotten out of school. He come up to me and I told him he better kill me, or he would be in a world of pain. He was shocked to see I wasnt backing down (I was bluffing of course and making an angry face, etc). He stopped with the knife point at my belly.....what happened next to this day amazes me. I took my right hand which was balled up and quickly cold cocked him as hard as I could. He dropped to the ground. I stomped his hand until the knife was free from his grasp. My friends came outside and saw what was going on. A neighbor called 911 and I took the knife and put it to his neck and told him if he moved I would f'n kill him (a bluff again). Cops took him in, but he got off after a day at court. He was released, the stupid judge came to the conclusion that he was just "playing around".....what is this world coming to?:(

machrism
October 23, 2010, 10:30 AM
I didn't have a gun at the time but this happened last Christmas. I was driving on a two lane road and was in alittle bit of a hurry. The sun was still up too so I could see. Going about 60 in a 55. Most people do anyway. I pass some cars going really slow before coming up to a black truck or SUV. Can't remember what exactly. I get the gut feeling he is about to be a big dick about it. I drive an Audi with some fair get up and go. So as I go to pass him. He swerves and run me off the road. My car started sliding in the gravel but as I gained control, sped off. Well. He kept up with me untill his truck maxed out. I kept going untill I realized just how fast I really was going and slowed down. Well. I continued to drive normal untill I noticed this black vehicle hauling ass and swerving in and out of traffic to catch up. He ends up creeping by and cuts within a few feet in front of my bumper. I change lanes. So does he. To lose him I had to wait untill an off ramp came up and swerve so late that he would have flipped his vehicle if he followed. I did not feel safe to stop somewhere. Much less knew where the closest police station was. Plus I had no gun, knife or anything. Now I am packing a knife most of the time and carry a .45 in my car only. Untill I get my CHL. I will also mount a camera between the front seats. I take my car to the local race track and if it ever happens again. I will be well prepared. What do you guys think of this whole ordeal?

mrgoodwrench76
October 23, 2010, 10:58 AM
Spindrift..............11 second mach 1???? Hmm..............

I find all these stories very educational and am thankfull for everyones input.

IMightBeWrong
October 23, 2010, 01:07 PM
This story takes place before I turned 21 and started to carry and I will be leaving a few details out since they are nobody else's business except for mine and the other parties involved.

When I was about 19 I was hanging out with a few friends and one of their younger sisters had some friends over as well. One of them was a bit of a trouble maker sometimes and I knew it because I was acquanted to him and his family. On this particular evening a friend of mine did something to egg him on, just jokingly and in a friendly nature mind you, and this individual decided to take it too far and get aggressive. He started grabbing at my friend and ended up with him in a playground choke. My friend didn't fight back (he later admitted thinking he would be let go and thought the other guy was playing around) and when he started to turn pink there was some shouting going on with everybody telling him to let go but he wouldn't and seemed to have everybody tuned out. I ended up putting him in a choke hold I learned in a judo class to get him off and he ended up freaking out and scratching the heck out of my arms with his fingernails and I let him go when he let go of my friend. When I let him go he started screaming and ended up grabbing a kitchen knife from the counter (this all took place in a kitchen at a friends home). I had to very calmly talk him down from this point and in the end he finally calmed and put the knife down after a few minutes. I made an agreement with him that if he calmed down and forgot about everything I wouldn't have a talk with his parents about the issue.

Anyway, for privacy's sake that's all of the story i'll give. He's a good kid at heart and i'm glad I never told his parents. He had a few troubles in his life but he's never hurt anybody and has really straightened out since then. Even though things worked out in the end, I made the decision to start carrying when I was of age largely because of this. You never know who's going to fly off the handle and when. That night I also learned a lot about the value of staying cool and talking things down when possible. I encourage everybody here to take up a martial art such as judo if possible because it can really help you learn how to think and act under pressure through sparring (randori).

Silverado
October 24, 2010, 12:10 AM
Thanks for the chuckle Mr. Goodwrench!

I've become a pretty docile driver these last few years after getting my CCW and being a devoted carrier.

To the OP, I've never had to draw, but on two occassions last few years I've sensed a potential close threat so I've cleared the cover garment and rested my hand on the butt of my weapon. Both cases the person broke eye contact, changed facial expression to fear from aggression and abruptly crossed the street or changed direction. Both cases while walking downtown after dark from club to hotel with my wife as we were enjoying our birthday's (which are only a few days apart) or aniversary.

More and more, I don't even feel the urge to be away from the house much after 9:00 PM. 48 years old, big screen HDTV and Netflix membership have lots to do with that!

M-ONE-X
October 24, 2010, 02:31 AM
I will spare the details but the guy let the girl go, he shut the apartment door and I called the cops. Man spent the night in jail, girl went home.