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willrussellville
July 2, 2010, 07:17 PM
I realize this could/would be handled differently depending on the exact situation, but I would love to hear from some of you here.

Situation:
You are standing in line at McDonalds. There are few people in the store at 9:00pm. Guy walks up, pulls a semi, points at the teenager behind the register. You are 6 feet from the guy and he is looking anxiously at the teenager and shouting. Do you pull and fire? I believe the statistics show that he will get the money and run (am I correct)? Bad situation and concerns me:
1. If I fire, I have killed a human (bad deal). I must then live with the fact that he probably would have run off with $150 and everybody still alive.
2. If I don't fire and he kills the kid...(bad deal), #1 doesn't look so bad anymore.
3. If I don't have a weapon (bad deal) I don't worry about #1 or #2. But...he might kill the kid and several more including me..

Daryl
July 2, 2010, 08:04 PM
1. If you fire, the perp may not be the only person you kill. Even a head shot can cause the perp to involuntarily pull the trigger when (s)he might not have otherwise. Trust me, if the perp is pointing a gun in my face, I don't want you to shoot that perp at that moment. At least let me duck first.

2. If you don't shoot, then the perp might go ahead and kill the kid. That's not your fault, although it would be easy to blame yourself. Accept that you're only human, and can only do so much.

The first thing I'm going to do is find cover. My goal is to make it home to my wife that night. If I can help someone else in the process of doing that, then I certainly will. Shooting the perp in your scenario would, IMO, increase the risk to the kid behind the counter, as well as anyone else in the restaurant.

In my state I'd be justified in shooting given the described scenario. I don't think that shooting at that moment would be a good choice though.

Daryl

44 AMP
July 2, 2010, 08:16 PM
Why are you armed?

Ask yourself.

For protection? OF whom? Yourself? or yourself and others?

Don't confuse legal responsibility with moral responsibility.

I can't, and won't tell you what to do. But I have an idea what I think I would do. And I'm a fair shot at only 6 feet.

Jim March
July 2, 2010, 11:06 PM
If it's possible to do so without harming anybody else, I'm going to shoot him in the lower head area. I'm going to drop him like a bad habit. He'll get one instant's worth of warning as I cock it, and the moment his barrel loses alignment with the clerk I'm going to fire a high-end 357.

No hesitation.

A good friend of mine was killed in a robbery after he gave up. He was a cab driver. My kid brother was next on the call rotation. The murderer called me for the ride - I talked to the SOB and dispatched that call. I have no tolerance for armed robbers. I'm going to apply the absolute max legal force I can, on sight, no qualms, no tears.

photogadam
July 2, 2010, 11:24 PM
What happens if you miss?

mellow_c
July 3, 2010, 12:14 AM
Don't miss...

I like the thought of letting the guy just take care of his needs and letting him run, no one gets hurt. However, Jim and 44 make good points. You dont know what the intentions of the bad guy are untill they have been carried out.
Many of us couldent really say what we would do, until faced with the situation. But some people know what they would do, they have chosen to ingrain in them selves an automatic desicion. Kinda like Jim says, "No hesitation". That kind of reaction can save lives. Hesitation can easily become a missed oportunity, and be the difference between surviving or not. And that can apply to just about anything. Yet sometimes, a programed reaction is not the appopriate one.
I guess the best thing anyone can do is to follow their instincts/intuition.

Ultimately, life will take you where you need to go.

war_elephant
July 3, 2010, 12:21 AM
Maybe my take is a bit different, as a retired LEO, could I pop him, no doubt. But there are many unknown factors, is the DB alone, does he have a friend sitting quietly in a corner eating a cheeseburger? Would the DB jerk his head as he shouts at the moment I fire and I blow his ear off, and then cause a gunfight in the McDonalds? Could that turn into a hostage situation? It is better sometimes to try to de-escalate the situation, speak calmly to yon pimple faced register boy, "just give him the money" or just back up and observe. If DB fires a shot or comes off target, maybe a double tap to upper torso, but then only if absolutely necessary. While I would have no problem killing a DB in this situation, I have others to think of, and I am not necessaraly in a good tactical situation. I would hate to be shot by a getaway driver or friend in a corner. Just my .002. I wouldnt second guess what any one else may do in this situation, just thinking out loud. :D

War_elephant
Retired LEO, firearms instuctor, full time troublemaker :p

stephen426
July 3, 2010, 12:49 AM
McDonald's does not hire me to be their security guard and I am almost certain that they would prefer customers not doing ANYTHING other than be a good witness in the event of a robbery. I am in the fast food restaurant business and the loss of a couple of hundred bucks is much better than the store being closed for God knows how long so the dirt bag's remains can be removed and the restaurant cleaned up. Major chains such as McDonald's typically do regular cash pulls and the money is dropped into a time-delayed safe or a safe that only Brink's has keys to. Their exposure is usually pretty low.

Now if the dirt bag walks in and starts shooting up the place, I would certainly try and shoot him since he has gone from robbery to assault with a deadly weapon.

jimbob86
July 3, 2010, 01:03 AM
"The hottest spot in hell is reserved for those who could have done some Good and declined." IOW: Do Your Best, In Everthing You Can.

Perp not looking at you? Finger on the trigger? Is he waving the gun around? What kind of gun does he have? (DAO? DAR? = He's gettin' one in he base of the skull.) If I think I can get him w/o injury to third parties, I'll try. If I think he will try to harm me or mine, I will try, regardless of risk to third parties.

The sooner more perps get dead = the sooner everyone gets to eat their Whopper in peace.

Big Bill
July 3, 2010, 01:21 AM
Maybe the guy was mad because his order wasn't right. :rolleyes:

BillCA
July 3, 2010, 02:09 AM
A lot depends on the demeanor of the perp too. They guy who comes in, quietly displays the gun and demands cash is probably not a huge threat. He's come here to "do his business" and get out. He's a serious threat only if challenged precisely because he will probably fight to get away.

The violent ones who start smashing things in their impatience are the ones that are unpredictable. They're as likely to shoot the clerk on their way out as not. And as mentioned, you cannot easily determine what they'll do in advance.

I'm of the opinion, by the way, that you believe the threats made by a criminal, but never any promises he makes about anyone's safety. Give me the money and no one gets hurt! cannot be taken as a promise of anyone's safety. The mere presence of his weapon says "I will inflict serious bodily harm to get what I want" so the threat must be considered real

If you're behind the guy and he's not dancing about like Mohammed Ali, a downward shot between his C-3 to C-5 (neck) vertebra will end the situation almost instantly. The downward angle is to prevent the bullet from exiting the throat area travelling towards the victim. But any CNS hit above the ribcage will "turn off" his legs (among other things).

Mannlicher
July 3, 2010, 09:07 AM
no matter how this turns out, don't forget, the guy with the the handgun pointed at the cashier, and doing the robbery, bears the over all responsibility for what happens to him, and to you.

stephen426
July 3, 2010, 10:51 AM
"The hottest spot in hell is reserved for those who could have done some Good and declined." IOW: Do Your Best, In Everthing You Can.

Perp not looking at you? Finger on the trigger? Is he waving the gun around? What kind of gun does he have? (DAO? DAR? = He's gettin' one in he base of the skull.) If I think I can get him w/o injury to third parties, I'll try. If I think he will try to harm me or mine, I will try, regardless of risk to third parties.

The sooner more perps get dead = the sooner everyone gets to eat their Whopper in peace.

Like I said, as a business owner, I'd much rather have a robbery than a shoot out. Can you guarantee that you won't miss and that shooting the dirt bag won't cause him to shoot the employee as well? I fully respect your right to self defense and have no problems with you shooting said dirt bag if he pointed the gun at you. You are not hired to protect anyone elses money. Do you really want to deal with the burden of shooting and killing someone, especially a couple of hundred buck of SOMEONE ELSES MONEY which is probably insured? What if the dirt bag is a gang banger and his dirt bag brothers seek retaliation? As I mentioned earlier, in a self defense situation (or defense of your family), you do whatever you need to do regardless of the circumstances. So save your self-righteous "hottest spot in hell" arguement for someone who cares.

no matter how this turns out, don't forget, the guy with the the handgun pointed at the cashier, and doing the robbery, bears the over all responsibility for what happens to him, and to you.

And YOU bear the responsibility for YOUR actions as well. If you miss or cause the dirt bag to shoot the employee in the face, you are likely to be held liable.


Don't think that am sympathetic to dirt bags or hesitant to pull the trigger on someone who really needs it. There is a huge liability issue and you are defending someone else's property, which you have not been asked or paid to do. If the bad guy starts herding people into the back or give an indication that he is planning to hurt anyone, then by all means, drop him. I think one of the most difficult things for us as concealed carry permit holders is WHEN to take action.

Glenn E. Meyer
July 3, 2010, 10:52 AM
There's no right answer - the best you can do is understand the situation and try to optimize outcomes that are important to you. Decide what those are. There are many.

However, before one, apriori, says that you should start the gun fight - I opine that you need some significant training. Most of us aren't military or LEOs to have experiences the real thing. But FOGs like me can do FOF exercises that are stress inducing and show you how this can go well or badly.

Then you have a set of paradigms that can aid your action.

jreXD9
July 3, 2010, 11:26 AM
I'm glad to see that I'm not the only person to run these type of scenarios through my head. Sometimes when I lay awake in bed I think about these things.
In this situation, if my family is with me I'll pop him as quickly as I can, head shot with the CW45. From 6 ft away nailing a basketball-sized gourd should not be a problem at all. Will I have regrets? I'll regret that HE put ME in that situation and that now his friends and family will have to mourn and say, "But he was turnin' his life around and gettin' his GED."

EVERYONE who carries must imagine scenarios like this because it CAN happen. We need to have some mental preparation, in addition to range time, to meet a situation like this as clear headed as possible.

When you're in the store or at the mall, standing there holding your wives purchases like the mules that we often are, contemplate the scenario.....take in everything around you.....possible collateral damage, angles, possible cover......practice situational awareness...it may save some lives some day. If YOUR action today could prevent a rape or murder 2 yrs down the road, would you take that action?

Glenn E. Meyer
July 3, 2010, 11:51 AM
Ahem, please tell me how I can get the optional crystal ball for my Eotech?

The problem with that predictive analogy is that the McDs robber is going to be a child rapist? Well, lets execute him then after conviction for the robbery?

Or if a kid has childhood conduct disorder, execute him as he may be likely to develop antisocial personality disorder and become a murdering sociopath?

Also, mental prep is good and range time is good but they are insufficient. Punching paper is not stressful or dynamic enough.

Let's be a touch realistic here. The best you can do is see if your action is the best way to limit the risk of grievous bodily harm to those involved and if you want to take the chance that such actions will go awry as compared to a moral statement. The latter might lead to a bad physical outcome but if you like making the statement, that's your choice and live (or die) with the consequences.

It's very easy to decide on the Internet. Being a FOG, I've trained in quite a few of these - sometimes I saved the day, sometimes I died. Sometimes, I was the BG and handled the good guy with ease. Sometimes, the scenario crew said I was rash or cowardly or did the right thing.

Absolute solutions don't exist.

Blue Steel
July 3, 2010, 02:21 PM
One thing that I think several people have missed is that this criminal isn't just stealing a couple of hundred dollars from McDonalds. He is assaulting the liberty of everyone who is there, robbing them of a sense of safety. Many of the people who suffer a violent crime are never the same again. While you might not be able to help the people who have already been victimized, if this criminal is stopped here how many future victims do we save.

With the scenario, we are not able to describe all the circumstances that must be evaluated. Considering the scenario given, if I was confident through my training and the circumstances involved that I could end the robbery then I would. Most likely I would seek cover, or at least play out the clock a bit to evaluate the situation. It is not likely that I would fire on the criminal while he had another victim under the gun. Once that gun came off target, or even worse the shooter opened fire, then I would respond aggressively with gunfire.

If the situation was such that armed response was not viable, then I would also be trying to observe and remember as much information as possible to aid in the police response.

pythagorean
July 3, 2010, 02:41 PM
If you're 6 feet away you simply disarm him with your hands. It is faster than pulling and shooting a gun. Trust me. If you are under 12 feet to me with a gun pointed at me I can disarm you very fast and easily without you pulling your trigger.

ClayInTx
July 3, 2010, 03:12 PM
Not everyone is able to disarm a BG.

Not every BG is easily disarmed.

A bullet does not necessarily blow away someone.

Someone not yet blown away can still pull a trigger.

The only time I would intervene is if there is an indication that the BG wants no witnesses, in which case he has made my choice for me and I have no other options.

One must evaluate the circumstances as best they can and should act in a manner to save lives, even the BG’s if he is willing to just take the cash and run.

kodiakbeer
July 3, 2010, 04:16 PM
These "would you" scenarios always leave so many variables that it's impossible to give a black and white answer. Are there others in the line of fire in front of or behind the BG? What are you carrying that day - your .380 or your .357? Is your carry piece instantly accessible or in an IWB under a zipped winter jacket that will draw attention when you go for it?

If the question is simply "Would you kill to protect another?" Then yes, I would - if the odds heavily favored me doing so without getting myself or the victim killed. If circumstances indicate that I might turn a simple robbery into a bloodbath, then I'd be a fool to start shooting.

In any case, I'd be in the process of (unobtrusively) getting my piece out and ready.

briandg
July 3, 2010, 05:08 PM
I'm not going to sit and nitpick about the scenario. I'm going to follow the action, think very hard about it, and when all of the conditions are met, I'm going to kill him.

I owe my fellow humans my protection if possible. I hope that someone will stand up for me if my pimple faced kid is the one in danger.

Several years ago, I found myself in a parking lot, between someone who did his best to make me believe he was a banger, and a van from a church that was full of teenagers that he was shouting at.

If that banger had pulled the gun that he was pretending he had, I would have killed him.

You either stand up for your neighbor's children, or you aren't worth the air that you breath.

The ten commandments said it all: do unto (for) others as you would have them do for you.

That is one of the reasons I'm rather loathe to see concealed carry permits on an a shall give basis, I'm not sure I like the idea that any idiot who applies has the power to absolutely screw up a situation and get people killed, but how else are you going to arm citizens to stop and prevent crime?

Glenn E. Meyer
July 3, 2010, 05:14 PM
We are starting down the 'kill 'em trail' that leads to a closure.

Recall that the use of the lethal weapon is to stop the BG. Whether they die may be a consequence but not the primary goal.

There is no guarantee that you will kill someone. Nor is there any guarantee that you can disarm any person on the planet.

Pray continue but don't chest pound folks. If you want to act with lethal force, cut out the blood lust.

Thanks

GEM

Nnobby45
July 3, 2010, 05:29 PM
1. If I fire, I have killed a human (bad deal). I must then live with the fact that he probably would have run off with $150 and everybody still alive.
2. If I don't fire and he kills the kid...(bad deal), #1 doesn't look so bad anymore.
3. If I don't have a weapon (bad deal) I don't worry about #1 or #2. But...he might kill the kid and several more including me..


You talk as though you'd just be an innocent bystander deciding whether to get involved in someone else's problem. It's real easy to see you at least robbed, or even shot and eliminated as a witness. Or shot for no reason at all. At 6 ft. away, YOU ARE INVOLVED! I think you might proceed, however you decide, as though your own life was in danger.

Just my thoughts on the matter.:cool:

Retired15T
July 3, 2010, 06:23 PM
As mentioned, the situation will dictate my action(s) or, a lack thereof. I'm one of those guys who believes that you should help your fellow man any time you can. The Lord demands that we good guys protect each other from the bad guys.

CLIFF'S NOTES:

Calm myself down. Observe, think, react if needed. In most of these types of robberies, the BG just wants the money and he will leave and it would be foolish of me to bring my weapon into play. If he shoots the clerk, it sucks to be working for Mickie D's that day, but then the BG goes down from my weapon's discharge. I would not get involved unless the BG had already shown a propensity for actual violence and not just threatening violence. Yeah, the clerk is shot, but now the situation is much more controllable.


Long, rambling thoughts on "What If?"

Assuming the area is completely clear for the shot, assuming the BG is going to die instantly without firing his weapon in a nerve jerk reaction to being shot, I'd shoot him.

In reality, we don't know if the BG will pull the trigger or not when shot. So I would begin by getting my firearm ready, but not in the open yet. Then, easing myself back a bit to get out of his peripheral vision, but keeping the path of the shot clear of Mr. Pimples in case I miss or it's a through and through. T&T shots can and do happen even when shooting a BG in the head. I would then bring my weapon up. The clerk, Mr. Pimples, is going to look my way....he won't be able to help it as he sees me raising my weapon. I would then announce in a normal tone of voice for him to drop his weapon and get his hands where I can see them. This is going to make the BG think a cop, or at least an armed person, is off to his side:

He may comply immediately, situation over.

He may shoot the clerk and then I shoot him. Situation over and legally, you will probably be alright. At least in my State you would be. I doubt you would be in Liberal States. Situation over.

The BG probably will not shoot the clerk, but start turning towards me. I then do body-body-head. If his weapon drops as I'm firing, I will try to avoid the head shot. Situation over.

If the BG has a buddy in the place, you will have a more severe situation on your hands. If the BG allows me too, I'd be using my peripheral vision with small head movements to attempt to see the second guy. If a shot is fired at me, hopefully I will then shoot BG #1 before I die. This will, in turn, likely cause the second guy to un-ass the place since he has just killed someone. Situation sucks, but it's over. But if the second guy continues the robbery, then he will be flush with adrenaline and likely make mistakes. He will probably put a few more rounds into my stubborn head.

In any situation where the BG doesn't have a buddy in the place with him, if it turns out I've disarmed him, shot him or he has given up, I will immediately begin scanning the doors for the *possible* get-a-way driver. If a get-a-way driver comes in, the first BG gets a round to the biscuit and I would then engage the secondary target. Most likely though, the driver is going to haul booty out of there to save his own hide.

I could keep on going, fleshing this out in another hundred different scenarios and still, someone else would be able to add another "What-If" to it and/or poke holes in what I've said.

Unpredictable is a word specifically crafted by humans for just such a conversation. ;)

However, I've been there, done that while I was in the Army. The situation allowed for me to still be here typing and the other guy isn't. It sucks too. There's just nothing in this world that will haunt your dreams more so than taking a life.

No matter if you're regarded as a hero, publicly adored, given medals, keys to the city, women falling all over you, your actions will haunt you for the rest of your life. Especially if it wasn't a clean kill that requires follow up rounds. :(

briandg
July 3, 2010, 07:01 PM
Good point. I should not use those exact words, and I know better than to use those words.

what I meant to say, was that I am going to do whatever i deem necessary to prevent injury, or further injury, and the only things I know of to stop a man with a gun from shooting another are generally very lethal. Lacking a taser, I am goint to without exception or question use the most extreme method that is available to me, to completely, totally, immediately, remove the threat that the guy poses.

sometimes, it will be simple enough to wait unti an opportunity to get him at gunpoint, disarmed, and on the floor. If he cocks his weapon or escalates in any manner that provokes me to attack, it goes back to what my old boss used to say to me when I made a mistake:

"Boy, I hope you gave your heart to god, because your *** is mine."

I am then just going to hope, and pray, that the uncontrolled chaos that defines not only gunfights, but life in general, doesn't throw anything at me that I'm unable to handle.

It's basically that simple. You observe, you decide whether to act, then when to act, and then, you do whatever it takes to stop the attacker. If it can be done peaceably, cool. Words are environmentally friendly, as long as it isn' trap. Bullets aren't so freindly to the environment. They're just as bad as second hand smoke!

noyes
July 3, 2010, 07:56 PM
6 ft away , maybe grab adam's apple ( rip & tear ) with one hand while grabbing his gun arm with the other hand ( to point it upwards , a safe direction ? ). Than i get to take his gun home for me to keep.

Maybe ?

Jim March
July 3, 2010, 08:04 PM
Ummm...look, by far the best shot in this circumstances is back of the head, behind the ear, low in the skull. With anything from a .380 on up, that's not just instantly fatal, it destroys the entire motor control system. Even more than a "high area" headshot, it's a "drop and not even quiver" shot. "Lights out".

Sorry, but that is just plain fact. If you know what you're doing and you're in this situation, you're going to kill the guy if you take that shot.

There's no use sugar-coating it.

James K
July 3, 2010, 08:59 PM
Hard advice, but do nothing. Yes, the odds are that he will take the money and run. If he does, do nothing except be ready to give police a good ID, including a license number if you can get it.

IF he fires at the clerk or anyone else, then you can return fire as you can make the reasonable assumption that you are in mortal danger. Whether you can fire if he is fleeing after having killed or wounded someone is trickier but most states will allow it.

The worst case condition is that YOU open fire, miss the BG and kill the clerk yourself. Then you not only go to jail (and you will) and become liable for civil litigation, but you will always have the death of an innocent person on your conscience.

Some of the posters remind me of the silly "why don't cops shoot the hangnail off the bad guy's trigger finger" suggestions. I am no novice on guns, and was an LEO for a fair number of years. I never killed anyone and hope I never have to. But I am not about to bet the life of an innocent person on hitting a half-dollar size spot on a bad guy's head at a distance of even ten feet with a handgun.

Jim

Hook686
July 3, 2010, 11:43 PM
Is 'FOG' Foolish Old Goat ?

raimius
July 3, 2010, 11:48 PM
Realistically, I would likely be facing situation 3 (no gun).
Demeanor is a big thing for me. If I think he is about to/has started shooting or otherwise hurt people, I go for the base of the skull with a strike, then graple/strike as best I can while trying to keep the muzzle away from me. (Assuming I don't hesistate too long)

If he strikes me as "threaten, grab, and run," I find the least visible spot behind the most solid object I can. (Also works for "Oops, I hesitated, and don't have a clear opportunity for a strike.")

Lancel
July 4, 2010, 12:28 AM
Gambling that the bad guy will do no harm is a mistake.
Playing the odds with an armed bad guy is playing Russian roulette.

If you're afraid that you will not be able to shoot without hitting innocent people then more training is needed to raise your confidence and skill level.

Larry

RGR3/75
July 4, 2010, 01:10 AM
if you leave him be, you gamble with the chance of him shooting the employee. its a win lose situation. i mean, this probably isn't his firs robbery and i doubt he robbing mcdonalds to feed his wife and 12 kids. you kill him, and there's one less dirt bag in the world and you may have saved the life on an innocent: win. you don't and who's to say that he doesn't turn the gun on you after the employee?: lose. play it safe, shoot the guy. there's plenty of less lethal options as well.

i'm no psychologist or cop but statistically how many armed robbers have the intent to kill? just wondering if anyone knows

Jim March
July 4, 2010, 01:22 AM
If you can't hit a target the size of a softball at 6ft out, time to hang up your hardware.

Now granted, the question is "can you do it under stress?" I think I can. I've been in enough hairy messes (mostly on two wheels) to think I can keep it together long enough to get a shot off.

Most fast food places are single storey, unless we're talking about the deep inner city. If it's a single floor, crouching can send the round flying above bystanders on the other side of the target.

Do a 360 threatscan the moment you know the target is down. Goblins run in packs.

Glenn E. Meyer
July 4, 2010, 10:52 AM
FOG = fat old guy. Got the term from a complaint to Mr. Hansen about some articles in SWAT. The poster wanted more high speed low drag guys in the mag, thought there were too many fat old guys. It's a common body type at matches and civilian classes. Like me. :D

BTW, grabbing the gun and waving it in the air is a way to see it go off and you can lose control. You don't really want to go H2H unless you are superbly trained. Even then it's a risk. Look at the cops shot with their own weapons.

It's all differential risk outcomes.

Oh, sports fans - we've forgotten the ever popular secret backup guy. Think about that. Commonly used in FOF training and in the real world.

When you are H2H or engaging one, the other shoots you.

pythagorean
July 4, 2010, 12:43 PM
All of you owe it to yourselves to test out the "armed perp" scenario.
12 feet away is awfully close and 6 feet away is too close for any handgun to be fired by a anyone thinking they have the time to fire.

A handgun within or at 6 feet from the one who has decided to move to take the gun or tackle has the clear advantage.

Try it out. Give a dummy gun to someone and have him or her wield it at you pointed at you etc. If you decide to take that gun or take out that person with your body you will succeed way before the gun is fired.

chupps
July 4, 2010, 06:25 PM
If he shoots, he is dead. Otherwise he lives to rob again.

Shane Tuttle
July 4, 2010, 06:44 PM
6 feet away? Are you in his peripheral view? Is there another perp, possibly blocking the door? What is the perp saying to the cashier? Is he demanding money or is he shouting he's going to end his life? Are the employees behind the counter in your line of sight if you decide to draw and aim your firearm? Are they ducking and running or crawled in a corner?

There are so many other questions that I honestly don't see where ANYONE can give a definitive answer. If the perp is demanding money at the moment and giving the employee the chance to comply, then my answer to your question is NO, I would NOT shoot. In my opinion, shooting someone that's looking to rob some cash from a public establishment and isn't providing direct, immediate threat to my life or to my loved ones isn't in the cards.

davem
July 4, 2010, 08:00 PM
If you go with a body shot I think I read the incapacitation time with a 357 magnum is something like 3.5 seconds- plenty of time to do a lot of harm, so it is either a head shot or nothing. It really is a judgment call, normally, let the guy have the money and do nothing- probably the best bet BUT if he looks really crazy- like he might just shoot up the place- then maybe go for it. Of course a lot also depends on how good you are in shooting under such situations- such as if you have been in military combat, etc.

Retired15T
July 5, 2010, 03:53 AM
I'm NOT trying to argue with anyone or insult people in the least. I just want to point something out.

Unless you've shot someone in the head, make zero assumptions about how that shot will turn out. When folks say, "If you can't hit a certain area from 6', then hang up your hardware" IMHO, have never had to shoot someone in an intense situation.

Everyone likes to think, especially men, that they will perform under pressure and be the hero of the day. WIN!

In all reality, you are very unlikely to hit where you aim, even from six feet, simply due to the amount of adrenaline that will be flowing through your body.

I spent just shy of a decade in 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment. We were Aviators, not door kickers. However, during certain training scenarios, we were trained in CQB with our hands, with knives and with handguns/sub machine guns, as well as all manner of rifles, mostly in an urban environment. Quite often, this was internal training but during training missions, we trained with our various customers. Some of us also took great pains to ensure we had personal friendships in place that allowed us to further our training on our own time with SF, SEALS, Force Recon and the like. Also, on almost every training mission we did with these various organizations, there were plenty of opportunities for us to increase our personal knowledge of various weapons and how to employ them. I was an adrenaline junky too. Fast roping and rappelling out of Blackhawks, check. Recreational parachuting, check. Fast motorcycles and cars, rock climbing, bungee jumping, bar brawls, knife fights in South America and many other adrenaline slathering activities and events? Check.

Even after all that training/experience, and having been in a position to kill bad guys in the past, when an event occurred that required me to draw my M9 for a very close shot, under 10 feet, I still almost bungled it. It's a lot different when firing from a moving platform like a helicopter killing people than it is to kill right in front of you. Muscle memory? I had it in spades. Accuracy? I was noted as one of the best shots in my Brigade and was often tasked with conducting firearms training for fellow Soldiers. But when you make your first, up close shot at a BG, there's a BUNCH of physiological things that happen in a person from sweating adrenaline to mental mind humping. It will affect every individual differently. So forgive me when I say this. If you think you'll take that shot and it will be a clean ending to the situation, you ARE making too many assumptions.

Why do I say this? Because handgun training is a perishable skill. Because unless you've actually shot someone, you never know what you'll do. Most people who honestly think they will shoot probably WILL. But let me tell you something. Be ready to shoot again and be ready to feel the impact on you as a human being. The good thing about being at war, my victim's family wasn't on the local news talking about how he was trying to get his life straightened out, how he was a father of these two kids you see and so on.

I agree with you. A bad guy is a bad guy no matter what. Otherwise, he wouldn't be in McDonald's holding the place up. Great. But killing your fellow human being will have an affect on you. To think otherwise is foolish. If you've been in the military, LEO or a health professional who is used to dealing with what's left of a head when shot, that impact may be minimal. But even in the military, seeing the situation myself where a person made a kill for the first time, the large majority of those people we NOT capable of then scanning their surroundings for any follow on targets. When a headshot is made right there in front of you, the amount of blood that comes with it is, quite literally, most of it. The brain is trashed and the BG is down, but that BG then goes on to bleed out what looks like every last drop of blood as the heart continues to pump simply from left over electrical impulses.

And having just seen a head come apart on you, a real, just recently breathing, talking and moving human head, and then all the blood that comes with it, is a vicious, shocking assault on the senses.

I don't know. Some folks in this thread make it sound like it would be so easy a thing to do. So easy to hit right behind the ear or the base of the skull. DO NOT make that assumption or "train" your mind into thinking that will be the case. Otherwise, when you're presented with a situation where you may be able to save a situation by taking out the bad guy, if you don't have a behind the ear shot or a base of the skull shot, you may just freeze up not knowing what to do. And bad guys tend to get pretty aggressive when they see someone standing there pointing a gun at them who hasn't fired yet.

Hopefully, some of you will know what I mean. I don't feel like I've explained myself very well. Probably from a lack of sleep.

Jim March
July 5, 2010, 06:17 AM
I'm 44. I haven't owned a car in over 20 years. I've got a lot of time in on high-performance motorcycles. That's a lot of years of controlling adrenaline dumps. I think I can cope. I could be wrong, mind you...

Retired15T
July 5, 2010, 09:42 AM
I'm sure you will Jim.

I want to say something now before someone says something. When I said that I've seen Soldiers take their first life and not be able to do follow up scans, I meant their first life up close and personal. And typically, they were only "out of it" for about 15-30 seconds. And if you yelled their name at them, they started moving. It's just that initial shock of seeing what you've done that I'm referring too.

Jim March
July 5, 2010, 10:06 AM
Let me put it this way...some of you know what I mean about an "overdrive" state, where everything slows way the hell down, sound goes quiet, you tend to do tunnel-vision unless you know enough to deliberately counter that, your emotions go flat...whole spectrum of "special effects".

I've been there eight times now. :) Only one in anything like "combat". The first was at age 12...dodged a natural disaster. The rest were bike-related.

Controlling the post-event shakes has gotten easier. Last couple of times, no real shakes or "crash" afterwards at all. Whatever is going on is some kind of natural drug, way past just "adrenalin" on it's own. The rise/peak/crash cycle is just insanely fast, a much wilder ride than any stimulant I've ever read about. And whatever it is, you can build up a tolerance :D.

I don't have to guess - I *know* that'll happen if I ever have to draw a gun.

And I know that at least in my case, fine motor control won't be affected, based on some of the crazy stuff I've managed on two wheels including very fine adjustments to throttle/front brake/clutch/shifter all at once.

So...yeah, I'm quite sure I can get in over my head. No question. But I'm also throwing BIG energy downrange, high-end 357Mags, with the best set of sights I've ever used on any handgun.

I think I can cope.

Retired15T
July 5, 2010, 10:13 AM
Adrenaline junkies, in my experience, tend to do much better in these situations. If you can control the "Double AF", adrenaline ass hole factor as we used to call it, then you should do well in just about any situation.

We called it Double AF because of all the "squeezing" that goes on. Eyes go tunnel, lids start to close, mouth gets puckered sucking in air, blood vessels force blood to the center, your ass tightens up, you get the picture.;)

stephen426
July 5, 2010, 11:39 AM
Retired15T,

Thanks for sharing your insight. I'm sure you have seen more crap in your lifetime than most of us armchair quarterbacks combined. I was wondering if those people who had their first up close kills froze before their pulled the trigger or after. I'm sure they had good training before they were in that situation.

I believe that I would be able to pull the trigger even though I don't have any prior experience doing so. I'm also sure that I will feel all of the things you mentioned AFTER I have pulled the trigger. In fact, my lack of experience may even give me less hesitation to pull the trigger since I have never witnessed all of the blood and gore nor experienced the after-effects. As for hitting where I am aiming, I am sure the adenaline will affect me, but 6 feet is pretty close. I have been shooting for almost half my life and I added a grip activated laser. I think I should be able to score a center of mass hit.

I am not saying that I would simply drop the bad guy. If you read my previous posts, I am saying that I am not going to defend someone elses property with lethal force. Now if the bad guy says something that makes me believe he is planning on shooting people anyways or of he threatens me or my family, I will have no hesitation before shooting him.

Most likely, I will observe and try to get away from the situation. I will try and get my weapon as discreetly as possible in case things go down hill.

jreXD9
July 5, 2010, 12:22 PM
Jim March....nice to see that someone can relate to SHTF bike stuff. I'm still here so I guess my reactions have been good so far......

Glenn E. Meyer
July 5, 2010, 01:55 PM
I've seen in FOF at close distances:

1. The gun taken away
2. The guy with the gun drawn shot by a guy with a holstered gun
3. The charging, tackle guy get hosed by the gun carrier

There is no guarantee that you will take the gun and your opponent isnt't savy when they are pointing the gun at you.

baldeagl1
July 5, 2010, 04:33 PM
Some of you guys need to click on the links in Glenn's sig and seriously read what he's written. I can tell you from personal experience that there is no way you can know what you will do in a given situation until you are in it. I don't care how many times you've rehearsed it in your mind. Reality is different. The best you can do is train to hone your motor and muscle memory skills to overcome the black that you will be in at the time and hope that you have enough presence of mind to do the right thing. That's why drawing and firing your weapon should always be the last resort.

As Glenn points out in his paper on training, the guys that die first are the hard chargers who believe they can do anything or that the situation won't affect their ability to aim and fire. The reality is, you don't know. If you think you do, you're very likely to become a victim.

Reminds me of the joke about the old bull and the young bull spotting a herd of cows......

Jim March
July 5, 2010, 05:03 PM
baldeagl1: right, but...one leeetle problem.

That "overdrive" state is only going to kick in if I think somebody's life is at stake. 7 out of those 8 times it was my butt on the line, once it was somebody else's. What I can do while in that state just cannot be measured via force-on-force.

Again: whatever is going on is "naturally drug induced". It has a rise-peak-crash cycle like any other psychoactive drug.

I used to be into self hypnosis to a moderately advanced degree. I pondered whether or not it was possible to program in a deliberate "overdrive trigger". My conclusion was that it was, but I'd have to be batpoop crazy to try.

In my experience, as best I can tell, it has a rise/peak/crash cycle of roughly 1 second / 30 seconds / 5 minutes. Crack cocaine has a reported "cycle" of about 2 minutes / 15 minutes / hour+, which is about the wildest psychopharmaceutical roller coaster you can strap yourself into.

Whatever is causing "overdrive" makes crack look like the kiddie ride outside a grocery store in comparison.

Once I realized THAT, any inclination to do a manual trigger of that stuff went away. Permanently. Good way to get very dead in an extra-exciting fashion if you don't turn the stuff off fast enough. I know of no way of safely testing it in a dojo or force-on-force.

I do however have a pretty good idea of what it can do, in my personal case.

chatman_55
July 5, 2010, 05:03 PM
Personally I'm torn between not wanting to not help someone obviously in need, but also needing to watch out for myself. stuff can go sideways in a courtroom really quick.

I'd probably stand by ready to draw if need be and just pray he only wants the money.

briandg
July 5, 2010, 05:41 PM
Personally I'm torn between not wanting to not help someone obviously in need, but also needing to watch out for myself. stuff can go sideways in a courtroom really quick.



If that was the attitude that the minutemen took, and they only defended their own lives and property, allowing the British to run roughshod over the public, disarming them, hanging them, taking their lands, well, we'd have lost.

The people who went to war in the 18th and 19th century to defend their fellow men were in the worst possible position. Read about bunker hill, Washington's men at valley forge, and so forth. These were men who left their families at home, knowing full well that marauders might burn their houses, kill their women and children, steal their livestock, and went to war under conditions that almost no modern american would tolerate for even a moment without abandoning whatever cause it was.

That wasn't sitting down on the bus or drawing a gun on an armed bandit, that was freezing to death in snow without shelter, dying of gangrenous bullet or bayonet wounds, loss of limbs, and horrendous things that people now can't even comprehend, much less accept as a risk that they must take as a duty to humanity.

One man in Yellowstone dove into a boiling hot spring to rescue a dog, but I'm hearing people here say that they wouldn't take a risk on an injury, criminal charges, lawsuit, death, or psychological pain to save another human's life.

I personally can't understand it at all. Millions of men took far greater risks than this, and did it just out of bravery of spirit and duty.

If my wife is made a widow, I'm sorry, but maybe someone else's wife won't be. She will be left with my insurance, at least, and maybe, the comfort that someone else will be alive, and maybe a dozen others because of my organs.

My mother died blind of neurological disease. Her corneas alone gave sight to two people. It was worth it.

Garybock
July 5, 2010, 06:13 PM
At our voluntary safe seminar in Rochester, NY area we we told we could use deadly physical force only when we were under the threat of deadly physical force.

We were also told that legally - shooting someone in the back is usually not good thing for the shooter.

When I was in high school I worked at a Burger King. We were told if someone comes and demands the money - give it to them. No need to ask if he wants fries with it simply give him the money.

briandg
July 5, 2010, 08:38 PM
That is why it will always come down to the ones with the best judgement being the ones that are best concealed carry candidates.

I know of a whole lot of people who would bust in on any situation just because they have a gun, and have waited all of their lives to be in a genuine, honest to god gunfight, and be the hero.

raimius
July 6, 2010, 12:27 AM
One man in Yellowstone dove into a boiling hot spring to rescue a dog, but I'm hearing people here say that they wouldn't take a risk on an injury, criminal charges, lawsuit, death, or psychological pain to save another human's life.
I think you are hearing wrong.
Is the $150 in the register worth killing over? I say "NO." (Even if he is a bad guy.)
Most posters, including myself, have stated they would intervene if they thought some innocent person was going to be hurt.

I don't want to see McDonalds robbed of $150, but I doubt I would kill anyone to prevent it. If the clerk is about to be shot, the calculation changes...as does my willingness to unleash a lot of force.

stephen426
July 6, 2010, 03:28 AM
If that was the attitude that the minutemen took, and they only defended their own lives and property, allowing the British to run roughshod over the public, disarming them, hanging them, taking their lands, well, we'd have lost.

The people who went to war in the 18th and 19th century to defend their fellow men were in the worst possible position. Read about bunker hill, Washington's men at valley forge, and so forth. These were men who left their families at home, knowing full well that marauders might burn their houses, kill their women and children, steal their livestock, and went to war under conditions that almost no modern american would tolerate for even a moment without abandoning whatever cause it was.

That wasn't sitting down on the bus or drawing a gun on an armed bandit, that was freezing to death in snow without shelter, dying of gangrenous bullet or bayonet wounds, loss of limbs, and horrendous things that people now can't even comprehend, much less accept as a risk that they must take as a duty to humanity.

One man in Yellowstone dove into a boiling hot spring to rescue a dog, but I'm hearing people here say that they wouldn't take a risk on an injury, criminal charges, lawsuit, death, or psychological pain to save another human's life.

I personally can't understand it at all. Millions of men took far greater risks than this, and did it just out of bravery of spirit and duty.

If my wife is made a widow, I'm sorry, but maybe someone else's wife won't be. She will be left with my insurance, at least, and maybe, the comfort that someone else will be alive, and maybe a dozen others because of my organs.

My mother died blind of neurological disease. Her corneas alone gave sight to two people. It was worth it.

Are you serious? You are comparing patriotic duty with defending someone elses property that is NOT YOURS TO DEFEND??? Would you like me to call McDonald's and a few other fast food chains to ask what THEY would have armed citizens do? I am almost CERTAIN that they would prefer their customers NOT get involved and start a gun battle in the store. Would you respect their rights to do what they want with their money? If an innocent person were to get shot or killed as a result of your actions, they may even try to prosecute you or hold you liable. I don't believe that any state has any type of Good Samaritan type laws that would protect you if something went wrong (unlike rendering first aid or CPR).

We are concealed weapons holders, not police officers. Despite my detest for scumbags that rob people at gun point, I was not appointed judge, jury, and executuioner. My rights as far as the use of lethal force are pretty clear. In Florida, it states that deadly force can be used (http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/weapons/self_defense.html)to protect myself or another person from death or serious bodily harm or the prevention of a forcible felony such as rape, robbery, burglery, or kidnapping, it also states that carrying a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman or "good samaritan".

You may want to risk your life, your money, and your freedom to protect someone elses money. Protecting someone elses life is a more noble cause, but maybe your actions will turn a robbery into a shootout. Maybe other people will get killed as result of your actions. Think before you act!!!

Jim March
July 6, 2010, 03:38 AM
"Your money or your life" is not a new social contract.

If I can drop them without undue risk to bystanders, I will. If they die, it won't be because of "money". They'll die because they posed a criminal risk of murder to everyone around them.

I honestly think I could sleep just fine over that. Hell, I'd be halfway through lunch before the cops finally show up.

briandg
July 6, 2010, 08:59 AM
You may want to risk your life, your money, and your freedom to protect someone elses money. Protecting someone elses life is a more noble cause, but maybe your actions will turn a robbery into a shootout. Maybe other people will get killed as result of your actions. Think before you act!!!


you've apparently ignored important parts of every post I have made about the subject, and parts of posts made by others.

This isn't about money, this is about a criminal committing a felony, who has stuck a gun into the face of some other person's child, and the obvious threat to that person's life.

In this and many other threads, a constant theme runs, that "I'm not putting my **** in jeopardy because someone else is under that gunsight."

The question in the mind of anyone who has a concealed weapon should not be, "should I intercede to save a life?" If it is presumed that you will shoot to save your own life, but not shoot to save the life of another, that is wrong

If you're carrying a weapon and a deadly force situation comes up, your only thoughts should be about if, when, and how, you should intercede with your own deadly force.

If the robbery goes off smoothly, so be it, nobody was hurt. I don't give half a fart about the money. It is all about the people.

jreXD9
July 6, 2010, 09:54 AM
QUOTING Mr. Glenn Meyer......"The problem with that predictive analogy is that the McDs robber is going to be a child rapist? Well, lets execute him then after conviction for the robbery?
Or if a kid has childhood conduct disorder, execute him as he may be likely to develop antisocial personality disorder and become a murdering sociopath?"

You stretched for that one. Predictive analogy WOULD lead one to believe that if they did it once they'll do it again and how many innocents will be hurt by them eventually? Me thinks you get the drift....but in case not, how many "uneventful" robberies committed by a perp might occur before someone, an innocent, is maimed or killed eventually? If the perp is taken out, incapacitated or killed, there is a nearly 100% chance that he/she will NEVER harm anyone again. That is the gist of part of what I posted.
In a later post you mentioned dropping the blood lust. With blood lust I WILL defend my family. You'll think I'm a maniac. I will do everything in my power to protect them. I may do some things halfway, like keeping my yard clean and tidy or straightening up the garage, but not when it comes to protecting my wife and girls. Anyone with an ounce of gumption would do the same. An armed perp in my family's immediate area with felonious intentions? I'm not giving them the opportunity to scar my family for life.

stephen426....in an INSTANT the perp turns with his booty, a bag of money which isn't yours to defend, and points his gun at you or a loved one or a complete stranger.....and pulls the trigger. You HAD an good opportunity to dramatically alter the outcome but didn't. If caught, the perp languishes in prison for 20 yrs (if WE'RE lucky) and an innocent victims family weeps. Now what say ye?

DanThaMan1776
July 6, 2010, 11:31 AM
This is definitely a tough one. But what defensive situation isn't?

If I were in the shoes of the sheepdog in this situation, I'd drop that wolf in the same second he drew a gun on an innocent teenager behind a register. Sure, I might carry some mental baggage after that.. but it's a hellovalot better than the baggage which I prevented the parents of that teen from carrying.

Me.. I love people. I love people so much that I will spend my life in jail just so another person could LIVE their life. Any thug who respects human life so little that he will pull a gun on a person for money isn't just someone I don't approve of.. they are someone I hate with a passion.

I just ranted hardcore, my apologies.

briandg
July 6, 2010, 01:58 PM
Me.. I love people. I love people so much that I will spend my life in jail just so another person could LIVE their life. Any thug who respects human life so little that he will pull a gun on a person for money isn't just someone I don't approve of.. they are someone I hate with a passion.

Thanks, you summed up my thoughts pretty well. A thug is someone to stop. Period. whoever you are, if you have the opportunity, can do it safely, all that other bs....

The reason you stop him has nothing to do with the purse he is stealing or $50 from a stop and rob. small property crime means nothing.

You are keeping him from shooting the neighbor's son. You are stopping him from raping his daughter. Abducting his grandchild, knifing or beating his mother or grandmother, or even your own grandmother as she walks away from the pharmacy with two months worth of oxycontin. When people are in danger, everything that makes people great and noble requires at least an effort to stop it.

Sometimes it is shooting the guy and taking his gun.

The rest of the time it is turning in the worthless little punk down that happens to be your nephew, sitting on the jury instead of making an excuse, picking up "bargains" that fell off of the truck, or even giving your kid the case of beer for the graduation party.

This is all the boy scout good citizenship that I learned when I was 5, and it still rings true, because it's pretty obvious that abandoning it has not done us a whole lot of good.

And BTW, in case anyone wonders, I don't love people, I hate them all. The chances are that whomever i might someday die defending would turn out to be some hellbound moron that I wouldn't let in my house. Should that stop me? NO. A cop wouldn't do it, because he has made the decision to defend the public, and excluding losers who don't deserve it isn't the right thing to do.

Glenn E. Meyer
July 6, 2010, 02:03 PM
Not going anywhere and I fear folks are posting opinions that might get them into legal difficulties if they were in an ambiguous situation.

So, closed.