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ISC
June 11, 2010, 04:49 AM
I have a friend that told me a story about an experience he had about 15 years ago. He was only about 20 then and the only firearm he owned was a Russian SKS that he bought as an investment on another friend's advice. His girlfriend at the time and he had just started going out and her ex boyfriend was obsessed about it and threatening to beat her up again. She started staying at my friend's apartment.

Late one night he was woke up by his nieghbor's dog barking and then heard a noise in his living room. He was on a higher state of alert because of a threat that the ex boyfriend had made to the girlfriend so he had his SKS out and leaned up against the wall by his bed. He grabbed it to check out the noise thinking that theere was nothing to worry about and he wwas just going to go reassure his girlfriend. He came around the corner from his bedroom and saw someone dressed in dark clothes carefully and (he thought) quietly opening the hall doors looking for their bed room. He was carrying a baseball bat. My friend was carrying the SKS at something like port arms and as soon as saw the guy he gave him an uppercut buttstroke, dazing him.

My friend held the ex boyfriend at bayonet point while the girlfriend called the cops. He tried to get up and leave and my buddy forced him to roll over on his stomach and poked him hard enough to nick him a little and draw a tiny bit of blood. The cops got there and charged the exboyfriend but then threatened to charge my friend with false imprisonment and assault. They then took away my friends SKS and held it until the exboyfriend's trespassing charges went to court.

The ex boyfriend never tried to contact the girlfriend again.

It appears he got the point!

45Gunner
June 11, 2010, 08:34 AM
Florida has the "Castle Doctrine" and anyone found in your house at night can be shot. A bayonet can be taken away from you and used against you if you are not proficient in martial arts. Once the bullet leaves the gun, there is a very good chance that that bullet will not be used against you, especially if it is in the perp who is illegally in your house.

ISC
June 11, 2010, 08:58 AM
All this happened before the castle doctrine became law. The thing I as focusing on was that once someone is apprehended or subdued, A bayonet could concievably be useful to hold them for the authorities.

BitterTait
June 11, 2010, 09:53 AM
I think the gun pointing at them would be equally effective as a bayonet.

Bayonets have their pros and cons. It's an extra tool, if the criminal attempts to grab your gun they may accidentally grab the blade, but it increases the length of the gun making it less handy around corners and in crowded rooms.

Deaf Smith
June 11, 2010, 06:28 PM
No problem guys. Just get the Glock bayonet.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/img-1751.jpg

Deaf

jhenry
June 11, 2010, 06:57 PM
A bayonet certainly has some added intimidation value so long as the individual believes you are going to use it without mercy. It is about the last thing I would add to a HD rifle though. It increases length, and weight. It also affords a handhold and added leverage for someone to disarm you. Going around corners, the bayonet will precede you. Most blade type bayonets are not sharp, some are, and I realize all can be made sharp. The cruciform types are only pointy. As for myself, if deadly force is to be used, and I sure hope it is not needed, the last thing I want to do is skewer some crackhead a bunch of times in my living room.

animal
June 11, 2010, 08:02 PM
Well, I wouldn’t go traipsing around with an extended SKS bayonet (it’s too long), or take the muzzle off of a captured bad guy long enough to flip it out and latch it (:eek:), so that’s out for me. I’d prefer not to be quite close enough to stick him with it too (there are ways to get out from under bayonet point and closeness can be a liability)..... glad it worked out for the guy that did use one, though.
Actually, I wouldn’t be using an SKS by choice in that situation to begin with, but I can't be critical 'cause I've done worse.

Kinda off topic, but the SKS bayonet does make a decent impromptu monopod.
Also had an SKS once that just wouldn’t shoot right without the stupid thing on the gun… couldn’t hit worth nuthin with it off the rifle, but got decent groups (for an SKS) with it mounted …didn’t matter whether it was folded or extended .. dunno if it was the added weight, psychosomatic, or what… Studied that thing for loose parts and such til I got sick of it and sold it. I’ve owned SKSs before and since and the others didn’t do this.

Best use for a bayonet I’ve found was in the early MAK-90 days when AK folding ones got cheap as sweat in summer. They make the sweetest tent stakes you’ll ever find.

Dispersed a small crowd of crackheads on a small commercial lot I owned once (the cops were only interested in sending me fine notices for garbage on the property, refused to run the trash generating the trash off , and city code wouldn’t allow me to put up an effective fence) That was with a P-17 Enfield bayonet that happened to be in the truck at the time … more like a short sword, really…. But it was what I had and it worked. Would’ve rather had an aluminum little league baseball bat … now that’s a truly sweet non-gun weapon !

Dave P
June 11, 2010, 08:30 PM
"Florida has the "Castle Doctrine" and anyone found in your house at night can be shot."

I sure hope nobody takes this literally :barf:


PS I always thought bayonets were good for the moles in my grass!

Deaf Smith
June 11, 2010, 10:02 PM
I sure hope nobody takes this literally

Dave,

YES. Take it literaly. Same for Texas. If someone breaks into your house the law says you are presumed to be in mortal danger and you most definatly can shoot.

It is not wise to break into houses that are occupied in Texas or Florida.

Deaf

Catfishman
June 11, 2010, 10:40 PM
It seems that most people on TFL laugh at bayonets. But I can see that a bayonet makes a scarier weapon. So you may be less likely to have to pull the trigger. Also bayonets don't jam. As for bayonets making it easier to take a gun from you. It would take a really tough guy to take a loaded gun with a bayonet on it away from an angry homeowner.

All that said, the only bayonet I have is on a Mosin-Nagant.

T. O'Heir
June 12, 2010, 02:01 AM
Ever heard about a thing called spelling?
"...poked him hard enough to nick him a little and draw a tiny bit of blood..." He's lucky he wasn't charged with attempt murder.

ISC
June 12, 2010, 08:06 AM
Ever heard about a thing called spelling?
"...poked him hard enough to nick him a little and draw a tiny bit of blood..." He's lucky he wasn't charged with attempt murder.
What the heck are you talking about? The only mis spelled thing in your last post wasn't in quotations, it was "attempt murder" instead of "attempted murder".

Were you referring to "nick"?

Main Entry: 1nick
Pronunciation: \ˈnik\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English nyke, probably alteration of nocke nock
Date: 15th century
1 a : a small notch, groove, or chip b : a small cut or wound

jhenry
June 12, 2010, 08:09 AM
I assume you meant to spell "attempted murder" and not "attempt murder".

Edit: Crud! ISC beat me to it.

OldMarksman
June 12, 2010, 08:43 AM
YES. Take it [anyone found in your house at night can be shot] literaly. Same for Texas. If someone breaks into your house the law says you are presumed to be in mortal danger and you most definatly can shoot.Slight but important difference here--"found in" your house vs. "had unlawfully and forcibly entered."

But the key word is "presumed." A presumption is rebuttable.

The current code greatly reduces the burden on the defender to prove that he or she faced imminent danger, but it is not a defense against a murder charge that may come about as a result of other evidence.

ISC
June 12, 2010, 08:43 AM
glass houses and all that....

Aside from this rememberance of a story from an old friend, I think bayonettes are more or less useless items. I even left mine at home when I deployed because it was something I bought for personal use and I figured that if the Army wants me to have one they'll issue me one out of the tuffbox in the armory.

All my SKSs have bahonettes though, not because I ever expect to need one, but because it's a unique feature of the rifle and looks cool. Since I consider my SKSs part of the "collectable" part of my collection instead of "1st line go to war" part of my collection, I try to keep them in original configuration.

When things go bump in the night back home I grab my CCW 9mm. Here, well we have to carry our M4s around with us everywhere we go.

ClayInTx
June 12, 2010, 08:46 AM
Dave quoted this:
“Florida has the "Castle Doctrine" and anyone found in your house at night can be shot."

and said this:
I sure hope nobody takes this literally


Study that sentence and you should see what Dave was referring to. :D

noyes
June 12, 2010, 09:25 AM
practical uses for the bayonet

1 in each car
1 in tool box
1 for yard work
1 collectible
2 in the house

Thecrazy2233
June 12, 2010, 10:11 AM
1 in each car
1 in tool box
1 for yard work
1 collectible
2 in the house



totally agree!

THORN74
June 12, 2010, 10:52 AM
ur friend should have pulled the trigger and shot the intruder. Ive got a ww1 mauser with its original bayonet (12" blade) and i wouldnt use that for self defence durring a home invasion. i wouldnt get close enough to use a bayonett (by choice) untill after the guy stopped breathing.

the bayonett hasnt been a primary weapon since the civil war.

Edward429451
June 12, 2010, 12:41 PM
Here's a lil thread veer, someone on the know speak up. I am non military and have seen my share of bayonets...all of them dull, I don't think I've ever seen a sharp bayonet...

They are dull on purpose, aren't they? So they tear and not cut...That's the only thing that would explain it why everyones bayo's are dull...

GM1967
June 12, 2010, 02:47 PM
Walking through your house with a bayonet on the end of your rifle might be a little unsafe, at least if there is anyone else in the house who is supposed to be there. Remember, there's no safety on a bayonet, and you don't control it with your trigger finger. In the dark, the wrong person could easily walk into it.

However, if you live alone, and you want to put a bayonet on the end of your home defense rifle, go right ahead. Just be aware it has advantages and disadvantages

kodiakbeer
June 12, 2010, 02:58 PM
All of you are assuming the rifle was loaded or had ammo available. The OP says he bought the rifle as an investment, so I'm assuming he didn't have any ammo.

I'm sure it made a better weapon than a chair or lamp.

Old Grump
June 12, 2010, 03:11 PM
Bayonets are dull because they are thrusting tools designed to go in between ribs, spread them out and in general raise havoc with the insides of your enemy. The edge isn't ground for sharpening and they aren't tempered to hold a sharp edge. You could grind away and make a sharp edge and then you will break the edge the fist time you used it.

It was a multi-purpose tool as an improvised mine finder, digging a shallow trench, opening a can of oil or a can of beans, pry bar for opening a crate of goodies or snapping the bands on your case of ammo and you just happened to leave your shears in another foxhole.

If you had my favorite, the M17 it made a dandy short sword. 16 1/2" of blade and a 5" grop made a formidable weapon mounted on the gun or hjeld in your fist.

For those claiming it was just another hand hold to be used to take the gun away from you think again. Looking at the sharp end of a bayonet is pretty intimidating, maybe more so than the muzzle behind it. Not everybody is conversant with ninja moves and in the heat of the moment the man with the fised bayonet holds all the trump cards. It does make the rifle a little unwieldy indoors but in the open and out of bullets fighting hand to hand a spear was a wonderful weapon and so is a Springfield with 6 1/2" of steel on the front of it.

If a knife was needed for cutting that was what the Kabar sheath knives were for.

Told you I was a dinosaur. My company commander was a lawyer by training and worried about his troops cutting each other up in horseplay so he wouldn't let me issue bayonets. For 6 years that goody box of blades got hauled around everywhere we went but the only time it ever got opened was for inventory. We had some discussions about that but Captain trumps SSG. Sigh. What a waste.

jimbob86
June 12, 2010, 03:22 PM
Opening MRE boxes and bags..... or T-Rats.

...... killing Jake, or any other critter that decides to take up resicence in your hole/guardshack/bunker.....

......with the addition of a rag affixed to the end if the grip (as a drogue), it can be used as equipment for a game of "Desert Lawn Darts"......

THORN74
June 12, 2010, 03:41 PM
ED: baynetts, while many are knife size, are more of a sword weapon catagory, and as such do not need a razor sharp edge. I have a rather large collection of period correct "battle ready" swords (meaning full tang non-wallhangers) none of these weapons aside from maybe a katana have a razor/knife edge. infact they appear dull to the touch. to think of these as not as lethal or not as dangerous is follhearty at best.

they are lethal weapons designed with the primary purpose of killing.

kodiakbeer
June 12, 2010, 03:55 PM
I also collect period swords, and none of them are sharpened.

Nathan Bedford Forrest the civil war guerrilla, was severely criticized by his own side for ordering his men to sharpen their swords. It wasn't against the rules of war, but it was just not something a gentleman did.

Deaf Smith
June 12, 2010, 06:57 PM
Oh goodness.. I just saw a Mossburg M590A1 AGAIN at a pawnshop. I guess it was on lay-away and the guy didn't pay for it.

The M590A1, is the heavy barrel Mossberg 12 gauge 20 inch gun with a bayonet lug. Well I 'only' have three shotguns... so I really need one with a bayonet lug.

Deaf

jimbob86
June 12, 2010, 09:41 PM
Def nailed the #2 use a civilian has for a bayonet: A Selling Point- a reason to buy this gun as opposed to that one.

The #1 reason is to make Sarah Brady and Josh Sugarman cry.

noyes
June 12, 2010, 11:13 PM
just for you Deaf Smith


http://thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=60634&stc=1&d=1276402083

590 with heavy barrel with accu choke . bayonet came sharpened.


http://thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=60635&stc=1&d=1276402275

Russian & Romanian came sharpened

T. O'Heir
June 13, 2010, 12:06 AM
theere(twice), nieghbor's, was woke up, wwas(typo likely).
"...wasn't in quotations..." Two different responses.
"...Mossberg 12 gauge 20 inch gun with a bayonet lug..." Mossberg M500's came with an 8 round mag, a parkerized finish and a lug for an M16 bayonet long ago.
"...Bayonets are dull because...they aren't tempered to hold a sharp edge..." Liability issues when sold retail and surplused. It's unusual for them to be sold sharp, but they can and do hold an edge. Poking/stabbing was not the only way they were used. Most of 'em were used to open cans and cut firewood. The biggest complaint about the No. 4 Lee-Enfield spike was that it couldn't do any of those tasks.
Have a book around here some place, 'Cold Steel', I think. (Not sure where it is or I'd give the author and ISBN) Anyway, it has a bayonet fighting chapter. Mind you, if a bayonet is the only thing you have, you've done something terribly wrong. Far worse than if you only have a handgun.

noyes
June 13, 2010, 01:04 AM
The primary difference between the Model 500 and Model 590 is in magazine tube design. The Model 500 magazines are closed at the muzzle end, and the barrel is held in place by bolting into a threaded hole at the end of the magazine tube. Model 590 magazines are open at the end, and the barrels fit around the magazine tube and are held on by a nut at the end.

animal
June 13, 2010, 01:30 AM
um … not quite.
And some of the newer 500s have the long magazine tube and a different lug on the barrel than the regular "captured thumbscrew" one.
The thing is stamped 500A, just like the rest of 'em produced for years, has some sort of tacticool name, an 8-shot capacity (if I remember correctly), all black or camo, and the regular 500 barrels won’t fit it of course…
The biggest difference between 500 and 590 (imo) is that the 590 is a little beefier and made to resist abuse a little better.
imho, the extra cost isn't worth it.

Deaf Smith
June 13, 2010, 05:53 PM
Thanks noyes.

I just ran into a old M590A1, heavy barrel, at a pawn shop. It was there a month ago but I thought someone bought it as it's been gone from the shelves for almost a month.

Well the dang thing is back. Used but it's for $149. I need another shotgun like a hole in the foot (got a few in the head already.)

I'll go by there tomorrow and find out why it's back. Maybe the guy could not pass the background check!

Deaf

kraigwy
June 13, 2010, 09:55 PM
I am non military and have seen my share of bayonets...all of them dull, I don't think I've ever seen a sharp bayonet.

Sharp bayonets (and swords) stick, thats why they are dull, you want to be able to pull it out quickly. Swords are the same, some sharpen swords but for cutting not poking.

You want a dull bayonet, with grooves (blood grooves) which aid in quick withdrawal.

Buzzcook
June 13, 2010, 11:43 PM
Some bayonets were sharpened. Sword bayonets, which were intended to be hand weapons as well as attached to rifle would occasionally be sharpened.
In practice they were seldom used and so seldom sharpened.
btw sharpening a collectible sword or bayonet, reduces its value quite a bit.

During WWI the German's were issued serrated bayonets. The front line soldiers would grind the serrations off, because being captured with one was supposedly a death sentence.
Serrated bayonets tend to be more collectable than none serrated.

One of the odd bits of US military doctrine is that should your bayonet get stuck in the body of your opponent, you should fire a shot into the corpse to loosen the blade.
If you had a round for loosening the blade you wouldn't have needed the bayonet in the first place.