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View Full Version : Loaning a SD/HD handgun to a friend.


wyobohunter
May 30, 2010, 12:10 PM
My friend lives in an out of the way (by most standards) part of the Kenai Peninsula. It isn't exactly remote but it can take well over 30 minutes for a state trooper to show up. They have a neighbor who has recently started acting crazy and has been a little threatening. We figure either he's off his meds or he's self medicating:eek:

My buddy works on the North Slope and is gone for two weeks at a time, leaving his wife & two young girls at home alone. They don't (yet) have a suitable self defense firearm for her so I've offered (with my wifes blessing) to bring over the wifes Ruger SP101 and a box of .38 Spcl. so she can get familiar with it in the back yard. We've offered to let them borrow it until she gets something of her own. She's not very experienced at gun handling so advice on teaching a newb would be appreciated.

Kyo
May 30, 2010, 01:14 PM
well, take her to the range at least so she knows how to handle it. teach her how to load/unload and all of the basics. just teach them to shoot.

wyobohunter
May 30, 2010, 01:27 PM
well, take her to the range at least so she knows how to handle it. teach her how to load/unload and all of the basics. just teach them to shoot.

That's what I meant by "getting familiar with it in the back yard". I meant shooting.

I was looking for tips on teaching a new woman shooter some basic self defense handgunning.

SouthCali
May 30, 2010, 01:33 PM
being you are an experienced firearm shooter/owner (assumingly) its simple. teach her what you know. the basics. end of story.

load/unload, grip, preferred stance, laws, anticipation, keeping eyes open, only point at what you intend to kill, safe storage (the daughters), etc.

Glenn E. Meyer
May 30, 2010, 01:46 PM
No - point the gun at someone if and only if you would be justified under the law to employ an instrument of lethal force. Also, your intent is to stop the incident, not to kill.

Implying that you intend to kill is not a good thing if the incident is ambiguous and/or goes awry.

Patrice
May 30, 2010, 02:41 PM
Hhmmm....Well, I'm wondering if the spouse who's gone 2wks at a time has made it home since the next door neighbor has been acting out? If so, why hasn't he obtained a proper firearm for his family?? I mean, is there some horribly long waiting period to purchase a firearm up there???[Also...just my personal curiosity, but what constitutes a proper HD firearm in your lights???? Do shotguns, rifles, and other guns than a revolver qualify?????]--Patrice:cool:

LordofWar
May 30, 2010, 03:25 PM
Your wife, weapon & ride are three things that are not meant for the friend.

Glenn Dee
May 30, 2010, 04:32 PM
I wouldnt loan a firearm. I'd gift it to him. (providing there is no reason he cant own a firearm)

golfnutrlv
May 30, 2010, 04:34 PM
I believe the correct terminology is "Shoot to stop the attack".

The "shoot to kill" attitude, as well as the "shoot to wound" attitude could very well get you in legal trouble if you ever had to fire your weapon in self defense.

How you conduct yourself in a self defense shooting makes more differerence in court than anything else, both criminal and civil.

This is not meant to be a "talk down" or anything like that at all, just a WORD TO THE WISE, take it or leave it.

johnwilliamson062
May 30, 2010, 05:35 PM
If you loan someone a car and they are in a n accident, you are liable in civil court as the owner of the vehicle. I assume the same would be true for a firearm. As previously indicated, "gift" it to him and he can "gift" it back when he is finished with it.
Or he can buy a hipoint and have his own.

wyobohunter
May 30, 2010, 06:42 PM
Hhmmm....Well, I'm wondering if the spouse who's gone 2wks at a time has made it home since the next door neighbor has been acting out? If so, why hasn't he obtained a proper firearm for his family??

Money my friend, plus she isn't sure exactly what she wants yet. I'm trying to stear them toward a youth length of pull 12 gauge. It'd work for crazy neighbors and bears (I've gone over to scare away a 3 legged brown bear once before).

I mean, is there some horribly long waiting period to purchase a firearm up there???

No waiting period. We have about the most leniant gun laws in the country.

[Also...just my personal curiosity, but what constitutes a proper HD firearm in your lights???? Do shotguns, rifles, and other guns than a revolver qualify?????]--Patrice

As I said, I think she'd be best off with a youth model 12 gauge. They have a 12 gauge but it doesn't fit her. He is long and lanky while she is small of stature. He bought his Super Nova thinking it'd be a great all around gun (including for her personal defense while he's gone) but he isn't really a "gun guy" so he didn't know about length of pull.

The only gun I own that would be simple enough for her to learn in a few hours of shooting and fit her and that I'd consider a man stopper (although inadequate for brown bear) is the SP101.

sakeneko
May 30, 2010, 07:15 PM
Wyobohunter, I'd suggest talking to both your lawyer about the legalities of this situation, and the police about your concerns, before you decide what to do. In a case like this, my instinct would be to lend your neighbor a gun too. However, there are legal issues and possible pitfalls that you should at least be aware of before you do this. In addition, if she has concerns about her neighbor, she should cover herself by making sure that the police are aware of them, even if they aren't going to be within easy calling distance. That way, if something happens, they've got some background.

As to teaching her to shoot, assuming that she's asked for help, you just teach her the basics and make sure she gets enough practice to learn them.

wyobohunter
May 30, 2010, 07:24 PM
In addition, if she has concerns about her neighbor, she should cover herself by making sure that the police are aware of them, even if they aren't going to be within easy calling distance. That way, if something happens, they've got some background.


The police are aware. He just got outta jail for violating a restraining order another nieghbor has on him and nearly everybody in the area has called the troopers about him.

I'm heading over so... Hopefully she'll never need it but she'll have it and know the basics of how to use it. Thanks all.

sakeneko
May 30, 2010, 07:30 PM
Good, Wyo. Good luck to her. :/ That sort of thing is the pits.

Ian0351
May 30, 2010, 10:16 PM
I loaned my brother a gun once, he liked it so much he bought it for a $50 profit to me... nothing wrong with helping out a neighbor until they have the funds/time to purchase something. In the best case scenario, she may want to buy your Ruger (having become comfortable with it) and put you in gun-shop mode again!

bensdad
May 31, 2010, 01:20 PM
I agree that loaning the gun may be problematic, as to legal reasons. There are lots of good values for used or new guns. I as many others may not know the complications of getting a gun around your parts of the country but either way, you can "sell" them your gun and have them make payments, until they find something, if they can't pay for it outright. Buy them a gun as a gift or loan money to them for this. I think my families safety wold come before any thing else if I had a neighbor that is that erratic of a person, especially outside of the city and no police.
I just bought a [email protected] 40 Sigma at Academy for $299, great gun, easy to shoot, great quality. I don't know if there is one near you guys up there but a great bargain.
They also have shotguns at a little over $100. Even a 20 ga will do fine on an intruder given the ammo. No I do not work for Academy and this is not a commercial.
A 12 to 20 gauge shotgun can be of great use out there and the 20 ga will be much easier to handle for her until such time as they are ready to get into HD/SD.
Instruction should be the same as for yourself, basic gun safety, shooting tips and the appropriate use of this in a SD situation. She may need to talk to a lawyer about the laws of SD/HD in Alaska.
Good luck with helping this family in need

Carne Frio
May 31, 2010, 01:28 PM
If the husband is working on the slope, he
should be able to afford a lower priced,
self defense pistol or shotgun.:D

Glenn E. Meyer
May 31, 2010, 01:35 PM
I would like to caution folks that promoting 'shoot to kill' is not appropriate.

Thank you.

GEM

billcarey
May 31, 2010, 02:21 PM
Loaning a firearm to anyone can put you in a long and expensive legal defense situation...or even put you in prison. At the least it can negatively impact you and your family forever. If the situation is that bad, your friend should be on top of making sure his family is protected. Help them learn how to buy and use a firearm...but don't loan one. You might consider a gift of pepper spray too. I hate to sound cold but loaning firearms is a bad idea in this country.

Lee Lapin
May 31, 2010, 02:26 PM
advice on teaching a newb would be appreciated

See http://www.corneredcat.com/

lpl

sakeneko
May 31, 2010, 09:01 PM
advice on teaching a newb would be appreciated

See http://www.corneredcat.com/

Speaking of which, where *is* Pax the last couple of months?

jrothWA
May 31, 2010, 09:23 PM
especially if she isn't use to firearms.

Maybe consider an M1 Carbine, stock pouch to hold the mags ( have children, here), low recoil, good for HD and critters up to small deer.

Draw up a agreement for sale with payments, an forfieture if "missed" payments.

wyobohunter
May 31, 2010, 10:16 PM
From what I read, maybe instead of a 12ga.,...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

especially if she isn't use to firearms.

Maybe consider an M1 Carbine, stock pouch to hold the mags ( have children, here), low recoil, good for HD and critters up to small deer.



But inadequate for brown bears... even the 3 legged variety.

If the husband is working on the slope, he
should be able to afford a lower priced,
self defense pistol or shotgun.

The husband is a contractor not a company guy so he ain't exactly rich but...He can afford a gun for her... he/they just aren't decided on what they should get for her.

Mannlicher
June 1, 2010, 11:53 AM
I never, ever, for any reason, loan a gun to someone that is not very familiar with guns in general, and that gun in particular.

Your buddy should have considered the security of his family long ago.

NavyLT
June 1, 2010, 12:04 PM
Oh come on.... In Alaska there is one difference between loaning the gun and gifting the gun. The loan is with an expectation of getting the gun back and the gift is with no expectation of getting the gun back. The legal liabilities of either are the same.

If the gun was provided to the recipient, either as a gift or a loan, for the express purpose of murdering someone or committing a crime with it... if the intent of the transfer could be proven, then the person providing the firearm by any means, sale, gift or loan would be guilty of conspiracy.

If the intent of the loan or gift of the gun is for legal purposes, and the recipient is not prohibited from possessing the firearm, there is no difference in Alaska other than the expectation of getting the gun back. (and to receive the gift, the person must also be an Alaska resident, whereas there is no such requirement for the loan.) The paperwork required is all the same, the background checks are the same, the transaction is the same. The gun is handed to the recipient with a handshake and, "Here, have fun!" whether the gun is given as a gift or loaned. That's all that is required. What in heck could the difference between loan and gift make, if the intent of providing the gun is for lawful purposes (or if the intent of providing the gun could be proven to be for unlawful purposes!?)

Onward Allusion
June 1, 2010, 12:08 PM
Add dog to that sentence...



LordofWar
Your wife, weapon & ride are three things that are not meant for the friend.

gunokie
June 1, 2010, 12:28 PM
You don't give any info on the lady's stature, but I don't see why the Remington 870 20ga pump wouldn't be a perfect solution, especiually if your student has no real experience with shooting . Even the SP101 with its chunky weight is uncomfortable at best to shoot and I would call it marginal at best on bears.
If cost is a factor, just take her to any pawn shop, used gun store, or gun show and you can pick up a lightly used 870 for as low as $150. Buy her a case of low brass field loads (2¾" #6's or even 8's) that will get her used to muzzle blast and recoil. Milk Jugs filled with water at about 15-20 yards make a satisfying and spectacular target to keep practice interesting.
Then introduce 3" 00 buck loads as well as slugs, just enough so she feels confident shooting them. There is not a Bear or Man alive that won't be impressed by a load of 00 buck to the face or a heavy slug to the chest.
JMHO
BT

Skans
June 1, 2010, 12:34 PM
My response without reading other posts first (I'll go back and read after responding:) )

NO WAY! I don't lend guns out to anyone when I'm not present. Here's why:

1. The same reason I don't lend my car out to anyone - OWNER'S LIABILITY.
2. Guns are like underwear - some things you just don't borrow or lend out.
3. Are you ready to say: "That's ok, that scratch just adds character to my T-Series Belgian Browning anyway"?
4. It's my belief that every law abiding citizen should own at least one gun - GO OUT AND BUY ONE!

Deaf Smith
June 1, 2010, 06:28 PM
I won't loan a gun to a friend for SD/HD. It has to do with legal issues.

BUT, I will do this:

1) I'll sell them the gun (say my Bersa .380, which is well tested, and my Mossberg 500 18 inch 12 gauge with tac-star side saddle, also well tested) for a very very reasonable price (and I mean very!) plus ammo for them that is also well tested in the pieces.

2) I will then take them to the range and train them. If it takes several times to the range, so be it. I'll bring .22 trainers, IPSC targets, stands, etc...

3) I'll also give them Massad Ayoob's book, "In The Gravest Extreme" plus the laws on deadly force in the state of Texas.

4) And if they want a CHL, I'll guide them through the process to get one.

But I won't just loan a gun to any friend, male or female. Like my granddad said once, "I'll loan you my wife before I'll loan you my gun."

Deaf

89yj
June 1, 2010, 06:58 PM
As for the shotgun, I perfer the Mossberg or Browning style tang safety over the Remington crossbolt safety for inexperienced shooters. It just seems a little more instinctive and is easier to see while still gripping the gun. Also, I don't think 00 buckshot is available in a 20ga. I see mostly 2 3/4" 3 buck and some 3" 2 buck.

Nnobby45
June 1, 2010, 07:04 PM
No - point the gun at someone if and only if you would be justified under the law to employ an instrument of lethal force. Also, your intent is to stop the incident, not to kill.

Implying that you intend to kill is not a good thing if the incident is ambiguous and/or goes awry.

I think Wyobohunter confused the basic rules of gun safety with SD tactics when in a dangerous situation.:cool:

wyobohunter
June 1, 2010, 10:11 PM
no love for the 20?
Not for an all around defensive gun in brown bear country. Sh'ed be fine with a 12 gauge. Just practice with 2 3/4" slugs and carry 3" slugs when outside with the kids... throw some buckshot in the tube for unwanted houseguests at night.

Even the SP101 with its chunky weight is uncomfortable at best to shoot and I would call it marginal at best on bears.

I'd call it marginal for black bears and completely inadequate for the kind of bears that live in that neck of the woods. That's why it is a stop gap measure for the crazy neighbor.

I think Wyobohunter confused the basic rules of gun safety with SD tactics when in a dangerous situation.

I think Nnobby45 confused something somebody else said with something I said;)

stephen426
June 1, 2010, 11:04 PM
I would have no problems lending a gun to a friend. I am very selective about the people I choose for friends, and would be even more selective about the friend I would lend a gun to. Since we are talking about the safety of your friend's wife, I would be even more inclined to lend her a firearm until they could get one that suits her.

I would bring several "suitable" guns so that she could try them out and decide what worked well for her. I would suggest one handgun and one shotgun since the handgun is much more portable. After she finds something she likes, they can order their own.

While I hate to be legalistic with friends, I would also ask that they sign a form acknowledging that they took possession of the handgun on such and such date.

Edward429451
June 1, 2010, 11:54 PM
Your wife, personal weapon & ride are three things that are not meant for the friend.

Fixed it. Us Americans always have extra guns for our friends. No, not my personal 45 but lemmee see what I can come up with...;)

animal
June 2, 2010, 02:19 AM
Maybe I’m just too much of a soft touch on this issue. Maybe I’m just a fool for legally exposing myself. Maybe since there was a time that I was on a tight enough budget that a gun wasn’t a priority … who knows?

I’ll loan a person of good character a firearm without a second thought… most especially to a female in need. It neither matters if I think they should already have one, nor do other second guesses of their situation matter.
If they believe they need it, and I am convinced that they are willing to use it legitimately … I am obligated to not only give it to them, but teach them how and when to use it. It goes back to the reason I decided to become certified as a firearms instructor. Twenty years ago, the home of my aunt was broken into. She was raped and beaten to death with a flashlight. She had refused offers of guns from myself, granddad, uncle, and others … along with offers of teaching her how to use one. Mostly she refused because she was afraid of guns for some reason, but I can’t help but think part of it might have been due to those offering having no "official" credentials as an instructor. She was impressed by certificates and such and there weren’t any certified instructors in this area; at least none that I know of. She also didn’t think "IT" could happen to her, so she didn’t see the need.

Those who see a need are the best judge of their own situation, imo. Anyway, for the past 20 years, I haven't refused a woman who’s requesting protection or the means of protecting herself. After the days spent cleaning cooked blood out of a floor furnace, ripping up soaked carpet, painting walls, and painting the ceiling; I may have lost the ability to refuse such a request. I don’t know if I could handle the possible consequences of refusing aid to a lady in need of protection. Perhaps this could serve as a legal defense for me if there are ever any problems, but ... I really don’t care.

All they have to do is ask; and they will receive a suitable firearm, ammunition, and instruction.

Scottmkiv
June 20, 2010, 09:12 PM
I'd be much more inclined to loan them the money to buy their own gun. That seems like things would be a lot simpler from a legal point of view if they end up using it.

mega twin
June 20, 2010, 09:47 PM
Any one of my real friends are welcome to any of my guns at any time.
None of my" friends" are welcome to the same offer.

HighExpert
July 4, 2010, 05:43 PM
I agree with the liabilities involved, but, to get back to the original question. Most women due very well with following instructions, usually better than men. Just be sure to explain, in detail, how the sight picture is supposed to work. Explain that she will not be able to hold the gun perfectly still and that she needs to squeeze the trigger not pull it as the gun passed over what she wants to hit. I find using the empty gun and letting the woman dry fire is very effective. Teach her to keep her focus on the front sight. Start with soft .38 loads and gradually work up. Do not use the old "I'll put 5 soft ones in and one hot one." Women do not like surprises such as this. She will probably surprise you with how well she will shoot. The main worry I would have is the kids. If you have a microsafe to go with the gun, it would be a much better deal. Lastly, make sure she understands that you do not threaten with the gun. If you pull it you shoot. If she is not fully reconciled to taking a human life, she does not need the gun. Give her a large canister of bear pepper spray and a cell phone.

Bill DeShivs
July 4, 2010, 06:00 PM
I'm not a lawyer-but......
There is no legal difference between loaning or selling. You are transferring possession (as long as the loan violates no laws.) If the loan/sale is legal, then there would be no legal repercussions if the gun were used in a SD situation.
And how would anyone prove the loan was not a sale or gift?

shafter
July 4, 2010, 06:22 PM
I agree with Skans

nefprotector
July 4, 2010, 08:24 PM
DONT DO IT! Mine got lost in pawn after loaning it.

wyobohunter
July 5, 2010, 08:18 AM
Crazy neighbor lit his car on fire, went driving around like a lunatic, tried to kidnap another neighbor, ended up holed up in his house and finally gave up to the troopers (took them forever to show up). Crazy neighbor is in jail and I have the gun back, end of story.

chatman_55
July 5, 2010, 05:10 PM
I'm unsure of the legality of it but as it has been said before I'm fairly certain if it's your gun and something happens your responsible. I'd say the best bet it (if he is a trusted friend) sell it to him for a buck, fill out a bill of sale and everything. Then once he has the income/time to pick himself up a weapon buy it back for a dollar and call it a day.