PDA

View Full Version : Mixed-Load Magazines


booker_t
May 11, 2010, 08:57 AM
Over the years I've heard about people loading magazines with a mixture of rounds.

Sometimes people will put 2 non-lethal rounds in last (first out), to give them that "option," although it really isn't an option once it's loaded.

Sometimes people will load various alternating patterns of Hollow Point and FMJ-FP/ball. I believe George Sodini, the LA Fitness shooter in Pennsylvania in April 2009, used an alternating pattern in his handguns.

Does anybody here do this? Is it ever recommended by any Department policies or protocols, military TMs, anything?

johns7022
May 11, 2010, 10:56 AM
Yes it's viable...I used to run 230 gn ball with 230 gn HPs in a 45 acp...

I know a firearms trainer that felt running slugs/00 buck shot was a good mix in a shotgun...

In the preceding two cases the concept was to keep shooting rounds with the hope that one or the other round would work to neutralize the threat...

Certainly I have considered running non lethal in the first few rounds as well in a carry gun...

I think what is important is that one takes an honest look at the threat, and consider an appropriate measure to neutralize that threat. While people will argue against non lethal...putting 5 rounds of snake shot into a mugger, then walking home, no ensuing legal issues...might not be a bad way to go....

kraigwy
May 11, 2010, 11:53 AM
Mixed loads is a silly consept, find a round that works and stick with it.

I have mixed loads, I have WCs for practice, I had 150 Gn RNL for milder loads yet meet the power factor for ICOR and such, and I have SWCs for full loads in my 38/357s.

I dont have to worry about whats in the gun, I just look at the bullets.

In my pocket revolver I carry 150 Gr SWCs loaded to +P specs, it would work in SD, it works on rattlers I run into in my yard or while horseback, it works in adding critters to the pot while camping, and putting down injured critters, including deer and such do to a muffed shot while hunting.

Last thing I want to worry about in a SD situation is what round is first up. I certainly dont want to worry about rotating a cylender to get the proper round lined up.

Indy_Guy_77
May 11, 2010, 12:05 PM
It's my opinion that, with modern ammunition, it's silly to mix loads in the same handgun magazine.

Non-lethal rounds as #1 and #2 in a handgun? Man, if a threat is bad enough for me to draw my weapon and fire it, it's danged sure bad enough that I want "something" that will greatly increase my chances of stopping said threat.

"I alternate JHP and FMJ for better barrier penetration". I've heard that line, too. From a good friend of mine. Again, with modern ammunition, it's silly to mix loads in the same handgun magazine.

Back to the barrier penetration thing... If you're not a fracking cop, you've really got no business shooting INTO a barrier in order to shoot AT someone else. Get real.

Carry a good performing JHP that functions flawlessly in your handgun and "forget" about the rest.

-J-

Bartholomew Roberts
May 11, 2010, 12:50 PM
I think what is important is that one takes an honest look at the threat, and consider an appropriate measure to neutralize that threat. While people will argue against non lethal...putting 5 rounds of snake shot into a mugger, then walking home, no ensuing legal issues...might not be a bad way to go....

Believe me, if you pump five rounds of snake shot into a mugger or anyone else and walk home, there are going to be legal issues ensuing. From a legal standpoint, shooting someone with snakeshot is still lethal force. This means that you have to meet all the same criteria (i.e. you can only shoot to prevent an immediate threat of death or serious injury).

Now, if you are being faced with an immediate threat of death or serious injury and want to respond with snakeshot, that is your choice; but at that point you are basically relying on the attacker changing his mind.

Some other important things to remember with regards to "non-lethal"

1. "Non-lethal" is actually less lethal; but shot, bean bags, rubber bullets etc. can and have killed people in the past.

2. When police use less lethal weapons, they typically do so with the support of other police officers using firearms. That is an important difference in how they are used by police and how they may be used by you.

booker_t
May 11, 2010, 12:55 PM
Good points, Mr. Roberts.

Sometimes I'll carry a different projectile/load in my 2nd or 3rd magazine, but within a magazine I keep it consistent.

twobit
May 11, 2010, 01:11 PM
In our police duty shotguns the first two shots are slugs and the next three are 00 buck. We shoot that series of two slugs, then three buck when we perform our annual required qualifications. Dozens of Texas departments use that 2 slug and three buck for their shotgun qualifying. All the academy's train that way that I know of.

Those five rounds are in the magazine. The gun is stored in the vehicle electric gun lock with chamber empty, action closed, trigger pulled, safety on. To bring the gun to battery one only has to pump the action and take the safety off (no fumbling with the slide release). As long as the gun is in it's gun rack/lock a round cannot be chambered because the lock blocks the slide from opening. A Remington 760 /7600 rifle can be stored the same way in the same locking vehicle rack.

24 years LEO.

I dont mix ammo in anything but the shotgun. Only exception; I used to carry snake shot (for snakes) in a couple of positions in a .38 but that was used as a snake gun on the ranch. I dont have that revolver anymore.

kraigwy
May 11, 2010, 01:13 PM
How many of you actually used "snake shot".

I tried it on snakes, its not that effective, I did PO a rattler one time, that was it, just POed him, desided to go back to normal SWCs and learned to shoot.

Try it, put your target on a 1/4 sheet of plywood and step back 7 yards, see how much penitration you get.

We're not talking a load of #2 shot out of a 410 Judge, we are talking 38s or simular rounds.

My experience is they are a gimic. I believe one would be better served in picking a good round and learning to shoot.

Practice does wonders.

BikerRN
May 11, 2010, 01:27 PM
Mixed loads is a silly consept, find a round that works and stick with it.

I concur.

Snakeshot is one thing, but using non-lethal rounds in a defensive encounter is something else entirely. It's still lethal force, and you need to be justified in using lethal force. If lethal force is justified, why are you using a non-lethal, or less than deadly, round? It seems silly to me.

You may only have one chance to end a lethal encounter. Do you really want to take the chance that your so-called non-lethal round will work? If the idea of killing another human being bothers you that much, that you load non-lethal rounds, do the world a favor and get a can of pepper spray and lock up your guns.

This is not to say that killing another human being shouldn't bother you, it should. The thing is, the alternative should be worse.

Biker

twobit
May 11, 2010, 01:36 PM
Agree.....I got rid of all the .38 snake shot after trying it a few times. A 22 rifle with the end of barrel a few inches from the snake works better (or just a 20 gauge with bird shot). That was just the only example I could remember mixing ammo in anything but the duty shotgun.

Glenn Dee
May 11, 2010, 01:45 PM
I use a revolver for H/D. I mix it up too. 1st round is snake shot, next two are frangibles, then three +pJHP's. Its a colt so I position the snake shot to be first up, then the two frangibles, then the JHP's.

IMO Less than lethal in a civilian handgun is asking for trouble.

WC145
May 11, 2010, 08:18 PM
The only time I mix up ammo is when I'm breaking in a new auto, just to make sure I won't run into any feeding issues. Otherwise it's either all practice ammo if I'm at the range or all carry ammo the rest of the time.

I would NEVER consider "less lethal" anything in my carry gun. In fact, I'm interested in MAXIMUM lethality from my weapon/ammunition combo.

orionengnr
May 11, 2010, 10:13 PM
Alternating rounds is a symptom of indecision. Most frequently this occurs in people who carry a .32 or .380.

I hate to put it this way, but don't know another way to say it:

if you do not have faith in your round of choice, re-evaluate your carry gun/caliber.

JohnKSa
May 11, 2010, 10:41 PM
I have heard from more than one respected source that mixing loads in a single magazine can, in some instances, cause malfunctions.

I will readily admit that I don't really understand why this happens and I will also readily admit that I haven't done enough testing to say one way or the other based on my own experience. I've shot maybe 2 or 3 magazines with mixed loads in my lifetime. They didn't malfunction but that's hardly enough testing to draw any sort of conclusion.

So basically I'm just passing the information along for whatever anyone may feel it is worth.

Nnobby45
May 12, 2010, 12:16 AM
Mixed loads is a silly consept, find a round that works and stick with it.


If DPX and HST both work, would it be all right to mix them?:rolleyes:

Hook686
May 12, 2010, 02:47 AM
Mixed loads is a silly consept, find a round that works and stick with it.

Perhaps. Trooper Mark Coats might have had more success had he had a couple of 158, or 170 grain, hard cast, or Jacketed Soft Points in his .357 magnum instead of only 145 grain silver tips. The 145 grain hollow points did not reach the vitals of the very overweight assailant. Six hits, but not one reached a vital organ. The silver tip is a nice round, but ....

Back to the barrier penetration thing... If you're not a fracking cop, you've really got no business shooting INTO a barrier in order to shoot AT someone else. Get real.


hmmmm a 300+ pound bad guy is his own barrier. Not everyone is that dense, but you might be confronted by a muscle bound one. Then the barrier penetrator might come in handy.

N.H. Yankee
May 12, 2010, 04:36 AM
Another BIG issue I found when using snake shot for snakes is that it doesn't always cycle a semi reliably if at all. I am in the camp that if it comes to the point you HAVE to use a weapon its already reached the point of fight to survive which equals lethal.

BeerSleeper
May 12, 2010, 06:03 AM
This just doesn't sound like a good idea. Shot vs projectiles is two different methods of shooting, and that needs to be on your mind when you pull the trigger. When shooting a bullet, you have serious ricochet concerns, and you also need to be mindful of what's behind your target in the event of a miss/overpenetration. Snake shot doesn't really have those issues, due to substantially reduced range, and ricochet is almost a non-issue. Those pellets have so little energy, by time they hit one surface, there's the same as nothing left. Snake shot does give a spreading pattern, though. While still within it's range to do harm, it has spread to what, a foot or so?

Based on these different shooting characteristics, you need to know, for certain, what is in the chamber when you drop that hammer, so you can shoot accordingly.

I can't imagine those that think of snake shot in defense situations. The idea to shoot to maim/wound/etc. is just a bad idea that is a product of too much tv watching. When a violent threat has met the legal criteria for lethal defensive force, is no time for half measures. If you're not willing to commit at that point, why bother to carry?

There's the legal issues too. If you kill a mugger/rapist/etc, you MAY be sued by survivors. If you permanently blind him with a few wayward pellets of your snake shot, you will definitely be spending on legal defense.

Double Naught Spy
May 12, 2010, 06:44 AM
I have heard from more than one respected source that mixing loads in a single magazine can, in some instances, cause malfunctions.

I have heard this as well over the years, but have never been able to replicate it with my own testing except where one of the rounds used in the mix is a round that won't function properly in my gun to start with, mixed or not.

Perhaps. Trooper Mark Coats might have had more success had he had a couple of 158, or 170 grain, hard cast, or Jacketed Soft Points in his .357 magnum instead of only 145 grain silver tips. The 145 grain hollow points did not reach the vitals of the very overweight assailant. Six hits, but not one reached a vital organ. The silver tip is a nice round, but ....

Doubtful. The Winchester silver tips have fine penetration. http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/357magnum.htm

Richard Blackburn may not have had any vital organs penetrated, but it wasn't due to inadequate penetration. The five hits simply didn't have the correct trajectory to hit the vitals.

troy_mclure
May 12, 2010, 07:19 AM
i used to have 2fmj underneath my jhp load in my xd40sc.

i figured that if id had already shot 8 times i wasnt penetrating deep enough.

then i actually thought about how deep a quality jhp will penetrate, and decided i was being silly, and replaced the fmj's.

Dannyl
May 12, 2010, 08:12 AM
HI,
on the odd occasion that I carry my Browning HP, my magazines are loaded as follows:
First two rounds are glasers (I make them and they work perfectly)
next 8 are JHP's the rest are FMJ's/

As you can see, I load for "progressive penetration".

Brgds,
Danny

Glenn E. Meyer
May 12, 2010, 08:22 AM
With Officer Coats, some stories say the BG was hit in the chest but I also read that the very fat guy was shot in the stomach. That would say that nothing immediately vital was hit.

publius
May 12, 2010, 08:40 AM
Mixing rounds makes no sense, get a good modern HP and go with it. Snak shot is downright dangerous to use. It is not even a good wounding round on smakes. Unless the perp is wearing a t-shirt you probably won't even draw blood.

1911rocks
May 12, 2010, 08:55 AM
You're over thinking this. You are employing deadly force....period. That will be the view in litigation. So, find a good lethal, practical round and use it in a lethal fashion. This is in the "just wound him" arena.

raimius
May 12, 2010, 11:34 AM
I have had a malfunction in a mixed mag.

.45ACP Remington UMC and Winchester PDX1 bonded.
After the hollowpoint, the round nose went nose up in the chamber. I haven't had this malfunction before or since with full mags of either. :confused:

johns7022
May 12, 2010, 11:47 AM
It's pretty clear many of you haven't given this much thought...your part of the 'I just don't want to think about it' crowd.

When you dump a magazine into the skateboard punks that decided to push you around at the park, the in your face homeless guy, or the drunk at the bar, because 'you were in fear for your lives'...I want to be there when to try to articulate that to the DA that shows up, trying not to step into the pools of blood...

Or how about a real tactical situation where, your trying to drill the drive by shooter who is behind a car door...ooops...all that really expensive hydroshok, glasier safety slug, HP ammo you bought isn't getting any penetration....

Wandering around town, packing a gun, thinking that in every scenario, HP bullets and the mantra 'I was in fear for my life' will save the day, is really short sided thinking...

booker_t
May 12, 2010, 12:30 PM
It's pretty clear many of you haven't given this much thought

Well for me personally, I've never used a "mixed mag" in a handgun, but I do in a shotgun as the other reply mentioned (slugs and buck).

I typically keep 135gr Nosler HP in the primary handgun (15+1=16). 2nd mag is usually 200gr FMJ-FP (+15=31 total). If I have a 3rd mag, it'll likely be another stack of 135 Nosler or 180gr Bonded Defense JHP (+15=46). Backup piece has the 200gr FPs (+10+1=57).

That gives me several options, and should I decide the FP is better for the job, it's a fairly simple task to swap mags (retaining the first) and rack the slide (or pull the trigger) dumping the chambered HP. Or, switch guns. Yes, I train for it.

What's your opinion of that setup/approach?

PS, Generally speaking, I'm of the opinion that if I can't out-think, out-muscle or out-run skateboard punks and homeless guys, and avoid/descalate bar bullies, then I shouldn't be allowed to own a handgun.

AcridSaint
May 12, 2010, 01:16 PM
My spares have a couple of HPs on the top and FMJ rounds below. My loaded magazine has HP rounds. It is my belief that there are two primary reasons to switch magazines - malfunction or a whole magazine of ineffectiveness. Since it may be a malfunction, I want to transition to more HP ammo, but if I've managed to stay in the fight through a whole mag and need more penetration three HP rounds will just have to go down range first.

My revolver reload is always full-house 357 rounds. A little harder on the follow-up, but if five SWCHPs don't end the fight I have some insurance.

I don't believe in candy striping or anything else of that nature.

Bartholomew Roberts
May 12, 2010, 02:08 PM
Once upon a time, I used to carry Glasers as the first few rounds in a magazine. I was concerned about overpenetration and wanted to limit it as much as possible. I got into a debate with someone here at TFL who disparaged the practice and tried to find evidence supporting it on Google - unfortunately, almost all of the evidence I found went the other direction.

After all Glaser Blue is just compressed #12 shot and Glaser Silver is compressed #6 shot. There are a number of stories of people getting shot by a 12 gauge loaded with #6 shot from across the room and not only surviving but being able to run/jump/shoot back.

One of the stories that stood out in my mind was a 94yr old man who shot himself in the stomach (contact shot) with a load of #6 birdshot from a 12 gauge. He decided to sleep it off and when he woke he was in enough pain that he drove himself to the hospital.

So if a 12 gauge isn't getting it done consistently with #6 shot, I guess it really shouldn't have suprised me that a 9mm loaded with #6 or #12 shot wasn't doing anywhere near that good. In any case, I soon switched to all JHPs.

Personally, I don't know what everyone's personal situation is, so it isn't really my place to decide what is the best load for them to carry. Having said that, I think a lot of people who carry Glaser-type rounds or snakeshot don't have a very good understanding of just how penetration limited they can be. Another factor often overlooked on the Glasers is that the jacket can deform when passing through a barrier (drywall for example), causing it not to release the pellets (Brassfetcher.com has a nice gel shot documenting this (http://www.brassfetcher.com/Brassfetcher_evaluates_9mm_Glaser_Safety_Slug.pdf)). When that happens, it actually penetrates quite well and performs in gel.

My current policy is to carry good modern handgun ammunition that meets the FBI criteria for effectiveness and train hard.

ScottRiqui
May 12, 2010, 02:37 PM
I'm a firm believer in both Murphy's Law and the 50-50-90 rule (if you have a 50-50 chance of making the right choice, you'll pick the wrong choice 90% of the time.)

As such, I have no doubt that if I loaded different types of ammo in a single magazine, the round under the hammer would invariably be the sub-optimal choice for the shot.

AcridSaint
May 12, 2010, 03:06 PM
But, since you already have a 50/50 chance if picking the "right" round for the situation doesn't that mean that you'll be completely limited to the "wrong" round when you make your pick and fill the whole magazine up with it?

Hook686
May 12, 2010, 04:02 PM
I can't imagine those that think of snake shot in defense situations. The idea to shoot to maim/wound/etc. is just a bad idea that is a product of too much tv watching. When a violent threat has met the legal criteria for lethal defensive force, is no time for half measures. If you're not willing to commit at that point, why bother to carry?


I carry snake shot in a .44 magnum revolver when I am out in the outback where I might expect to come across a rattlesnake. The first chamber holds one. The next couple of chambers hold Buffalo Bore Heavy 185 grain .44 Special, the next couple Speer Short Barrel 200 grain Gold Dots and the last chamber holds a 300 grain Hornady XTP.

I carry a S&W 329PD. Chambers 2 thru 5 are for recoil concerns with the lite Scandium/Titanium S&W revolver. The last is a 'Last ditch stand' round, as I do not like shooting this full house .44 magnum round in this light weight revolver. The snake shot is just that. I figure if it is a close encounter, like 10 feet, or less, a snake shot to the face might help ameliorate the threat. If not, the next round is a Heavy .44 Special and the very light recoil of the snake shot is not going to cause much problem.

The snake shot is not to wound, but to be used on rattlesnakes in the field. If a serious threat materializes I would shoot until the threat is eliminated.I know what I load into my revolver. I figure others must also. I seriously doubt anyone loads snake shot into a pistol magazine, or expects it to be effective beyond 10 feet. Beyond that distance I shoot it merely hoping for some effect and mostly to get to the next chamber.

Why is everyone so down on snake shot ? If you don't like it, don't use it.

troy_mclure
May 12, 2010, 05:31 PM
Or how about a real tactical situation where, your trying to drill the drive by shooter who is behind a car door...ooops...all that really expensive hydroshok, glasier safety slug, HP ammo you bought isn't getting any penetration....

actually the 165gr .40 hydrashock will go thru the door of a '60's Chevy belair, and dent metal in the other door.

10 shots at 10' with a 3" barrel, all 10 penetrated the door.

im sure if it will penetrate the heavy sheet metal used in the '60's it will penetrate "modern" car doors even better.

BeerSleeper
May 12, 2010, 05:44 PM
Why is everyone so down on snake shot ? If you don't like it, don't use it.
Not everyone's down on it, but so far in this thread, the premise has been it's use for self-defense, implying (as I have read it) aggressors of the two-legged variety. To that, I say, the right tool for the right job.

Your post was the first one I saw a suggestion of loading snake shot in preparation for use on a snake. I think that's a wise precaution. From the activity you described, you are probably substantially more likely to use your gun to defend against a snake, than anything else, making that a scenario worth preparing for. Too many other posts were suggesting loading snake shot rounds where there is no reasonable chance of encountering snakes.

Double Naught Spy
May 12, 2010, 06:58 PM
I have had a malfunction in a mixed mag.

.45ACP Remington UMC and Winchester PDX1 bonded.
After the hollowpoint, the round nose went nose up in the chamber. I haven't had this malfunction before or since with full mags of either.

This is interesting. So can you attribute the one time event to being because of the mixed loading and if so, how did the mixed loading create the malfunction?

If mixed loads can in fact create malfunctions because of being mixed loads, I am guessing that being able to see how the malfunction occurs is going to rely on some slow motion photography.

AFSG
May 12, 2010, 11:58 PM
In the event that I am in a situation where I am forced by another individual to use deadly force to save my own life. I see no need of reguard on my part to provide for his heath in the future.

Mannlicher
May 13, 2010, 06:43 PM
mixed loads are lame, lame, lame.

orionengnr
May 13, 2010, 07:22 PM
Most of the time I see this discussion, it is in the context of either .32 or .380.

IMHO, mixing (or alternating) rounds is a clear sign of either a) indecision or b) lack of faith in your choice of caliber.

I think the solution to that is obvious.

If not, I'll spell it out. Use an adequate caliber. :)

raimius
May 14, 2010, 11:39 PM
I have had a malfunction in a mixed mag.

.45ACP Remington UMC and Winchester PDX1 bonded.
After the hollowpoint, the round nose went nose up in the chamber. I haven't had this malfunction before or since with full mags of either.

This is interesting. So can you attribute the one time event to being because of the mixed loading and if so, how did the mixed loading create the malfunction?

If mixed loads can in fact create malfunctions because of being mixed loads, I am guessing that being able to see how the malfunction occurs is going to rely on some slow motion photography.
Quite honestly, I am not positive it was due to the mixed loading. However, I have never had a similar malfunction with that magazine or pistol. (DW CBOB with factory mag)


I might try to replicate the malfunction the next time I go to the range with my pistol.

Double Naught Spy
May 15, 2010, 12:20 AM
Thinking about this mixed loading issue, it dawned on me that there are mixed loads being used on a consistent basis and apparently without concern that the mixed loads will cause a malfuction. I am talking about those in the military who load tracer ammunition with ball ammunition. The tracer ammo is usally a different weight than the ball ammo and usually has a different velocity. The same goes for adding AP ammo to the mix.

Maybe mixed loading isn't so lame after all.

UpandAtIt
May 15, 2010, 02:06 AM
When I carry in the city, I load in the magazine with what my local police use. When I am in the outback, I carry three magazines when I have an auto, each magazine is loaded with a specific use round and have practiced in what mag and when, just depends on the situation.

I never mix within the same magazine, one, if you need to change your ammo thoughts immediately, unloading, finding the right rounds and reloading the mag can be costly. Two, the chances for jams, stove pipes and FTE are greater, not probable, but possible.

When I carry a revolver, I can easily mix the cylinder up as long as I make sure the first round is timed right for fire. Changing out a cylinder is much easier than a magazine unloading and reloading.

wayneinFL
May 15, 2010, 02:28 AM
Mixing rounds makes no sense, get a good modern HP and go with it. Snak shot is downright dangerous to use. It is not even a good wounding round on smakes. Unless the perp is wearing a t-shirt you probably won't even draw blood.

I agree. There was a burglary up in Orlando a few years back in which a homeowner went to investigate a noise in his garage. He opened a cabinet, found the burglar hiding, and emptied a revolver full of snakeshot into his face. Made the burglar madder than hell. The burglar went outside, got a gun he had stolen in a previous burglary and shot up the old man's car. Fortunately, the burglar didn't shoot the old man.

To the wishy-washy who want to put snake shot in a defensive sidearm:

If you want a less lethal weapon, get OC spray. If you want an all the way lethal weapon, get a firearm. Don't get a firearm and try to "set it to stun."

BeerSleeper
May 15, 2010, 05:47 AM
Don't get a firearm and try to "set it to stun."
Excellent point. If one really wants a "phasers on stun" type of defensive, I'd suggest one of those tasers that shoots the probes out of it would be a better choice.

Double Naught Spy
May 15, 2010, 08:02 AM
I agree. There was a burglary up in Orlando a few years back in which a homeowner went to investigate a noise in his garage. He opened a cabinet, found the burglar hiding, and emptied a revolver full of snakeshot into his face. Made the burglar madder than hell. The burglar went outside, got a gun he had stolen in a previous burglary and shot up the old man's car. Fortunately, the burglar didn't shoot the old man.

That is a great story. Do you actually have a source for it? It would be nice to be able to point folks considering using snakeshot to a link for the story.

usmcgundog
May 15, 2010, 06:14 PM
It's my opinion that, with modern ammunition, it's silly to mix loads in the same handgun magazine.

Non-lethal rounds as #1 and #2 in a handgun? Man, if a threat is bad enough for me to draw my weapon and fire it, it's danged sure bad enough that I want "something" that will greatly increase my chances of stopping said threat.
You hit the nail on the Head.

wayneinFL
May 15, 2010, 06:48 PM
Hmmm. This sounds like the story, but the details aren't exactly as I remember them. Maybe I'm mixing it up with another story in Orlando? Hard to say- seems like burglars are always getting shot in Orlando.

From: http://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/XcIBViewItem.asp?ID=3430




Homeowner wounds burglars with Follow-Up (Forest Hills, Tennessee - May 20, 2002)

Homeowner wounds burglars

Originally ran here as:
Forest Hills homeowner wounds burglary suspects
by Brad Schrade, Staff Writer
The Tennessean
May 20, 2002

Forest Hills homeowner wounds burglary suspects

A Forest Hills man shot two armed burglars at his home early yesterday morning and, police say, the burglars were lucky that Roy Luckett grabbed his wife's gun.

When the burglar alarm went off at 2 a.m. in Luckett's two-story home at 939 Tyne Blvd., it woke him and his wife, Patsy. Luckett had the choice of two guns in their bedroom  his .45-caliber handgun and his wife's less powerful, .38-caliber pistol, loaded with "snake shot" pellets.

He grabbed the .38 and went downstairs.

After searching the first floor, Luckett, 67, went to the basement, where a door near the garage was cracked open, his attorney Clark Spoden said.

Luckett thought the wind had blown it open; he closed the door and was about to go back upstairs when Patsy called down to him.

"She said, 'Did you check all the rooms?' " Spoden said. "(Luckett) was in a storage room adjacent to the furnace room and heard this noise."

Luckett opened the furnace-room door to find two figures standing in the darkness, and he fired three times, emptying the gun, Spoden said.

Police say the two burglary suspects were masked and armed with rifles, Spoden said.

The pellets hit one suspect, Micah R. Ladd, 20, in the arm. The other suspect, a juvenile, 17, whose name police withheld, was hit in the face.

Luckett ran upstairs and grabbed the .45. The suspects struggled to get the garage door open and once they did, fled through the garage, police and Spoden said.

The pair fired 14 rounds from at least one of the rifles into Patsy Luckett's sport utility vehicle, piercing its body and shattering a window, Spoden and police said.

When police arrived in the neighborhood, where homes are appraised in the $1 million range, they followed a trail of blood from the Lucketts' furnace room, through the garage and into the woods, where they found a black mask and a flashlight.

Metro police say the two wounded suspects stopped near the Harding Place/Humber Drive intersection and phoned for medical help.

Ladd, who was treated and released from a hospital, admitted to the burglary, according to a police statement, and led detectives to the two rifles that he had stashed at his home at Hillview Heights near Franklin Pike before calling for medical help.

The juvenile is being treated at Vanderbilt University Medical Center and will be booked into juvenile detention upon release, the police statement said.

The Lucketts were not injured. Metro police spokesman Don Aaron was quoted in a television report saying that the two suspects were fortunate Roy Luckett chose the gun he did.

Luckett said he does not know why the suspects stayed in the house after the alarm went off.

"They were lucky I didn't take the .45," he said.

"No telling what would have happened. God just guided me through that night."

Break-in suspect is Chase's son

Originally ran here as:
Break-in suspect is Chase's son
by Sheila Burke, Staff Writer
The Tennessean
May 21, 2002

Break-in suspect is Chase's son

Longtime television talk show host Charlie Chase yesterday acknowledged that his teen-age son was one of two males accused by Metro police of breaking into an Oak Hill home to rob a 67-year-old man and his wife early Sunday.

The son, David Bernard, 17, was in stable condition last night at Vanderbilt University Medical Center after being shot in the face by the homeowner, Roy W. Luckett, of 939 Tyne Blvd. Charlie Chase is the professional name of Charles W. Bernard.

While not naming the teen, police said a 17-year-old and 20-year-old Micah Ladd broke into the home armed with a Bulgarian rifle similar to an AK-47 assault rifle and a .22-caliber pistol.

Chase, in a statement released to the media said his family was "in complete shock." Chase declined through a spokesman to give an interview.

"My family and I simply don't understand what has happened," the statement said. "We're in complete shock. We are just now beginning to learn details. The whole matter seems so unreal.

"Whatever did happen, we are thankful that David is alive. It was traumatic for everyone involved, including Mr. and Mrs. Luckett. Our thoughts are with them, as well."

The intruders had duct tape, police spokesman Don Aaron said, and "we believe that they intended to rob Mr. and Mrs. Luckett and in the process bind them while the robbery took place."

Still unknown, police said, is how the pair acquired the weapons and why the Luckett home was targeted.

Chase sold a home on Tyne Valley Boulevard, less than a mile from the Luckett home, in April, property records show. He bought the home in 1997.

In his statement, Chase said it was important for the family to support David, and he asked for "prayers and support and for the understanding that would allow David and us to deal with this as private individuals."

Chase and Lorianne Crook launched a television variety show, Crook & Chase, in 1986. It aired for a decade on TNN, then in syndication in 1996 for a year, before it returned to TNN. The network dropped the show in late 1999.

The duo are now hosts of Crook & Chase Country Countdown, a nationally syndicated radio show.

School officials said records show a Charles D. Bernard is a student at Overton High School, at 4820 Franklin Pike. Several Overton High students contacted last night declined to comment. Messages left for former Overton High Principal Michael Hammond and current Principal Monica Dillard were not returned.

When the injured teen is released from Vanderbilt, he will be charged as a juvenile with charges including aggravated criminal trespassing, aggravated robbery, unlawful weapon possession, felony vandalism, possession of burglary tools and criminal attempt to commit aggravated robbery, police said.

Ladd, who was shot in the arm by the homeowner and has since been released from the hospital, was in the Metro Jail last night in lieu of $100,000 bail. He was charged with aggravated burglary, police said. Police expect additional charges against Ladd, of 831 Hillview Heights.

Police said Ladd has admitted his role in the burglary and led police to the weapons at his house. "Unless they have been modified, (the weapons) are not on their face illegal," Aaron said.

At a press conference at his home yesterday, Luckett recounted the events of Sunday morning. He was awakened by his home alarm system shortly after 2 a.m.

Luckett grabbed his wife's .38-caliber pistol loaded with "snake shot," which is similar to BB pellets, and began checking the house. He went downstairs into the garage and opened the door to a utility closet. Inside, he saw two armed masked figures and shot them, police said. Luckett said he fired all the ammunition in the handgun and then ran upstairs.

Luckett "fired his weapon in self-defense because he feared for his safety," according to Ladd's arrest affidavit.

The two suspects fled but not before one of them sprayed Luckett's Lexus sport utility vehicle with gunfire, he said. There were 13 bullet holes on the side of the vehicle and one, Luckett said, came within a hair of hitting the gas tank.

After fleeing, the two men tried to get help for their gunshot wounds, police said. Police said they tried to drive to a hospital in south Nashville but stopped near the intersection of Harding Place and Humber Drive and called for help. They told responding officers that they were shot while downtown, but police suspected they had just come from the Luckett house.

Luckett said the incident has taken a heavy emotional toll on his wife, Patsy.

"It's a shame that you work hard all your life and then have something like this happen."

Glenn Dee
May 16, 2010, 11:45 AM
Mr Johns

I have given it quite a bit of thought. My prior post describes my mix of ammo in my H/D revolver. Although I have little fear of skate boarders, and almost never go to bars... I restrict my "In fear for my life" time to more realistic situations.

I respect everyones opinions, and often learn something from them. My personal tactics, including ammo load out works for me. As a civilian I believe I can articulate my logic in a court if need be. My decision to mix ammo is based on my experience, and my location. As I said... it works for me.

I must admit that I do fear tripping over my son's skateboard when coming in after a late night call out.


Glenn D

Glenn E. Meyer
May 16, 2010, 12:46 PM
Which is more likely:

1. You will have to shoot through a car door?
2. A FMJ overpenetrates and hits an innocent?

- This is for an average civilian DGU?

So many hypotheticals? :D

johns7022
May 16, 2010, 01:24 PM
Assuming all the testing has been done for reliability and accuracy..

I don't see a big problem with carrying a gun that has 2 rounds of snake shot, then 2 rubber rounds, then two Glasiers(low power), then two high power Glasiers, then two lead rounds, then two FMJ ball, then two HPs.

If hypotheticaly everyday you walked dark alleys, and everyday you got into a conflight with someone...imagine how many times, the BGs would run away, with bruise to the leg, or cops were cuffing up a guy in pain due to a little snake shot...no one is dead, no lawsuits, no charges...you solved the problem without having to kill someone...

And if you are attacked by super ninja homie, you just keep pulling the trigger untill a round that works stops him...

Now I don't do this, but for purposes of this discuss, varying the type of rounds that one needs for the given situation is historicaly and tacticaly not only relevent, but a given fact for those cops dealing with riots, people with armour etc.

Simply put if you decide to KILL everyone that is in conflict with you...then you might as well let the kids at the skateboard park beat you up, because no jury in the world is letting you off for killing all of them because a bunch of 14 year olds pushed you around....

raimius
May 16, 2010, 04:23 PM
no lawsuits, no charges
HAHA! Don't count on it. You SHOT them. By legal standards, you clearly used lethal force. You must be able to justify that, or you WILL likely spend time in prison.
It matters not that you used "slightly less lethal" lethal force.

So, I did a mixed mag test again. Remington UMC ball and Winchester PDX1 Bonded out of my .45 CBOB, using the factory mag. No malfunction this time.
Theory results: inconclusive.

rbohm
May 16, 2010, 05:03 PM
i have thought about mixing round in the past, and i have come to one conclusion, i wont do it. a handgun to me is a defensive weapon, and if i have to pull it out, i will shoot until the threat is ended. personally i will load my magazines with something like eldorado starfire, or federal hydrashock rounds. i want something to stop the badguys with reliably. i can deal with the legal aspects later. better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

Double Naught Spy
May 16, 2010, 09:18 PM
i have thought about mixing round in the past, and i have come to one conclusion, i wont do it. a handgun to me is a defensive weapon, and if i have to pull it out, i will shoot until the threat is ended.

Okay, I don't think anyone here is discussing loads for assaulting a castle in Liechtenstein. We are discussing self defense. The notion of mixed loadings is that you will have ammo that would ideally cover more circumstances than might be fully covered by only one type of ammo. The goal is to stop the threat regardless of the loading.

personally i will load my magazines with something like eldorado starfire, or federal hydrashock rounds. i want something to stop the badguys with reliably.

Yeah, I don't think you will get reliable stopping of bad guys from those rounds, given that they are pistol ammo.

johns7022
May 16, 2010, 09:50 PM
This is all moot...half the posters in here, carrying exploding nuclear fision hollow point bullets, will run away leaving wifes and children to deal with an active shooter scenario...

orionengnr
May 16, 2010, 10:12 PM
I don't see a big problem with carrying a gun that has 2 rounds of snake shot, then 2 rubber rounds, then two Glasiers (sic) (low power), then two high power Glasiers (sic), then two lead rounds, then two FMJ ball, then two HPs.

Well, I only see about 512 problems with your scenario...however, for the sake of brevity, I will only point out the first two.

Using your above example, you have expended fourteen rounds on the first assailant before taking him out of the fight. For some of us, that is tweo magazines' worth of ammo on the initial assailant. :rolleyes:

1. Assuming he is not returning fire (and this is not a trivial assumption) will you still be alive 12-14 rounds from now?

2. If you take the time to pump 14 rounds into the first assailant, what are the second, third, fouth assailants doing during this period of time? Standing around idly watching American Idol on their i-Pod and waiting for their turn? And then waiting for you to reload so you can put 14 more into each of them? :rolleyes:

In real life it doesn't work that way. If you need to employ deadly force, you need to neutralize a threat right now.

johns7022
May 16, 2010, 10:23 PM
For the majority of peeps in here that obviously will run or go to guns, as being their only self defense option, I think the kids at the skatepark should get some snake shot..not dropped....

If your of the ilk that multiple attackers, armed are going to take you down...big deal...opening up a mixed bag of snake shot, glasier safety slugs, hollow points, ball ammo, etc is still going to stop them..

I think most peeps believe the law states they have to KILL the bad guy, not so, you just need to apply appropriate force to neutralize the threat and if the threat is a punch in the nose...then pulling out a 44 mag might be just a tad overkill...

TXGunNut
May 16, 2010, 10:50 PM
Real life example here. One night I was night fishing and dozed off to find a water moccasin at my feet. I repelled it with LTL force. Somehow I dozed off again and the snake was back. Again LTL force was deployed. My M60 S&W was loaded with Silvertips and the rocky bank would have almost guaranteed a ricochet or fragmentation.
Next trip I had snake shot in the first two cylinders for the rude snake. I prefer a sharp hoe or shovel for snakes but was trying to minimize equipment carried. Snake was a no-show, fishing was productive but I was blocked on my way back to my truck by three guys who seemed reluctant to let me pass. I calmly put down my fishing gear, drew my trusty M60 and opened the cylinder to index past the snake shot. I had a speedloader in my pocket but decided indexing was quicker. My new friends were more than happy to let me pass. Mixing ammo worked for me and those guys that night, but I damn sure didn't plan it that way!
Back on topic, mixing ammo would work if you knew the exact scenario in which you were likely to use deadly force. Sorry, doesn't work that way. Pick a good ammo. Another magazine (pistol or rifle) may give you more versatilty but the rounds in the weapon are very important. Choose thoughtfully but just choose one.

kkb
May 16, 2010, 11:54 PM
The only gun I load different rounds in is the bedside shotgun. The last out shell is a 3 incher, all the others are 2 3/4 inch.

I have trouble counting to six sometimes and the extra umph from that last shell is going to tell me it's time to transition to another weapon.

Seems to work at the range. :rolleyes:

Bartholomew Roberts
May 17, 2010, 08:44 AM
For the majority of peeps in here that obviously will run or go to guns, as being their only self defense option, I think the kids at the skatepark should get some snake shot..not dropped....

I think most peeps believe the law states they have to KILL the bad guy, not so, you just need to apply appropriate force to neutralize the threat and if the threat is a punch in the nose...then pulling out a 44 mag might be just a tad overkill...

I'm not sure what your point is here. From a legal perspective, shooting anyone with snakeshot is the same as shooting them with a .44 magnum hollowpoint. In both cases, you will only be justified in doing so if you can show a jury that you had a reasonable and immediate fear of death or serious bodily injury.

If you can pull the .44 mag at all, then you are fighting for your life and snakeshot isn't going to maximize your odds in that fight. If you can't legally pull the .44 mag, then you can't legally empty snakeshot into them either.

You seem to be under the impression that shooting someone with snakeshot when there isn't an imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury is legally OK; but that is not the case. Or did I just read your statement wrong?

ScottRiqui
May 17, 2010, 09:13 AM
I'm not sure what your point is here. From a legal perspective, shooting anyone with snakeshot is the same as shooting them with a .44 magnum hollowpoint. In both cases, you will only be justified in doing so if you can show a jury that you had a reasonable and immediate fear of death or serious bodily injury.

+1

By mixing a variety of different loads in the same magazine, it really sounds like you're trying to implement a "continuum of force" doctrine using a handgun as your only tool, which simply isn't possible.

Here's a fairly-standard continuum of force model that police use:

1. Physical Presence
2. Soft Hands
3. Mace or Pepper Spray
(A K-9 unit would fall here)
4. Hard Hands
5. Police Baton, etc.
6. Threat of Deadly Force
7. Deadly Force

The only steps that a handgun is suitable for are 6 & 7. As soon as you expose/draw your pistol, you're already legally at step 6, and the instant you fire, you're at step 7, regardless of what kind of load is in the chamber.

dinsmore83
May 17, 2010, 08:38 PM
The only steps that a handgun is suitable for are 6 & 7. As soon as you expose/draw your pistol, you're already legally at step 6, and the instant you fire, you're at step 7, regardless of what kind of load is in the chamber.

exactly true,

and, Johns 7022, at least where I am, you are not legally required to use other means before employing deadly force, IF you feel your life is in danger, yes the goal is to stop the threat, but using maximum force at your disposal is the fastest way to neutralize said threat, it might SEEM like overkill, but if you do not neutralize the threat quickly, you risk further threats to your life.

Head-Space
May 17, 2010, 08:57 PM
"Non-lethal" -- If you're justified in shooting the threat, you're justified in killing the threat. If you're not intent upon killing the threat, you'd better hold your fire. If you're going to shoot, shoot to stop the threat. That means use "lethal force" because it's justified.

If it comes up in testimony or cross-examination that you had the gun loaded with "non lethal" ammo, you're setting yourself up to hand counsel the argument that you were intending to justify "less than lethal force." You don't shoot if lethal force is not lawfully justified. And if it's lawfully justified, you need to ensure that you have it at your disposal.

As regards 6 and 7 above. When you draw your firearm, you provide the other party with legal justification to shoot you in self-defense. If you're moving to six, you're mandated to seven.

Double Naught Spy
May 17, 2010, 10:55 PM
"Non-lethal" -- If you're justified in shooting the threat, you're justified in killing the threat. If you're not intent upon killing the threat, you'd better hold your fire. If you're going to shoot, shoot to stop the threat. That means use "lethal force" because it's justified.

You seem confused. You most definitely can shoot to stop without the intent to kill and have be 100% justified by law.

You don't shoot if lethal force is not lawfully justified. And if it's lawfully justified, you need to ensure that you have it at your disposal.

Yes, but when lethal force is justified, you don't have to use lethal force. You can use less lethal ammo and be 100% justified. Not only that, even if you use full power lethal force, you don't have to apply it in a way that you feel will be lethal.

When you draw your firearm, you provide the other party with legal justification to shoot you in self-defense

This is absolutely untrue. You break into my house and are attacking my daughter and I come in the room and draw down on you, you have no legal justification for self defense. My draw was in self defense (defense of another) against you to stop you from being a threat. You are not then covered under self defense laws when you try to harm my daughter or me.

Hook686
May 17, 2010, 11:02 PM
I thought the idea was to stop the threat of pending death, or serious injury, not killing the threat. I also wonder at the idea on 'Non-lethal' rounds from a firearm. I figure all discharges have the potential to kill. Is that not why one of the rules is, 'Do not point the gun at anything you do not wish to destroy.' ?

I think if you have tested the ammunition, load what you think will stop a threat you are defending against. Different strokes for different folks.

Bartholomew Roberts
May 18, 2010, 07:42 AM
Yes, but when lethal force is justified, you don't have to use lethal force. You can use less lethal ammo and be 100% justified. Not only that, even if you use full power lethal force, you don't have to apply it in a way that you feel will be lethal.

True; but since you can only use lethal force (and less lethal ammo is still lethal force) when you have a reasonable and immediate fear of death or serious injury, you are taking a big risk (that of death or serious injury) when you use less lethal means.

This is absolutely untrue. You break into my house and are attacking my daughter and I come in the room and draw down on you, you have no legal justification for self defense. My draw was in self defense (defense of another) against you to stop you from being a threat. You are not then covered under self defense laws when you try to harm my daughter or me.

It depends on the scenario and context. If he breaks into your house, the fact that he tries to use a lesser means of force than lethal force will not stop you from using lethal force to repel him in most states.

However, if we look at the post he is responding to, that poster seemed to be advocating shooting kids at the skatepark with snakeshot if they give you trouble under the mistaken belief that this is not deadly force. If it turns out one of those kids was a 21yr old with a CCW and you pull out your snakeshot and threaten him with it, he would be perfectly justified in considering you a reasonable and immediate threat of death or serious bodily injury and would be free to act accordingly.

I thought the idea was to stop the threat of pending death, or serious injury, not killing the threat.

Yes - and the most effective means of stopping a threat is a shot that penetrates a large, blood bearing organ or the central nervous system. This is most effective because it doesn't rely on the attacker's mental state to stop him. Instead, it physiologically shuts the body down. However, it also has a good probability of killing or seriously injuring him, which is why it is called lethal force. Killing isn't the goal; but it is a likely by-product. If the threat disappears though, so does your rationale for using this level of force.

shafter
May 18, 2010, 12:31 PM
I'll stick with one type of ammo. Anything else is overthinking the situation and borders on mall ninja syndrome.

Different ammo types may be useful in a wilderness excursion though

Dave R
May 18, 2010, 01:11 PM
Perhaps. Trooper Mark Coats might have had more success had he had a couple of 158, or 170 grain, hard cast, or Jacketed Soft Points in his .357 magnum instead of only 145 grain silver tips. The 145 grain hollow points did not reach the vitals of the very overweight assailant. Six hits, but not one reached a vital organ. The silver tip is a nice round, but .......And this is why I DO carry a mixed magazine in my .380acp. Alternating Gold Dots and JHP. If, God forbid, I ever have to shoot someone with a .380acp. I do not plan to shoot only once. I believe it was our own dear Tamara who said that good tactics for a mouse gun are "empty, run, reload." If I have to shoot someone, I want both big holes and penetration. One round won't do both in a .380acp.

The two rounds I use are reliable in my gun.

I don't want to carry something bigger.

howwie
May 18, 2010, 02:21 PM
I'm a 25 year old that still tries to skateboard at the local park :cool: and I am carrying. I've been to some parks around where noone skates, everyone is just itching for a fight or doing drugs. But there are a few decent skateboarders out there;)

threegun
May 18, 2010, 03:46 PM
IMHO, mixing (or alternating) rounds is a clear sign of either a) indecision or b) lack of faith in your choice of caliber.



Sorry but this is incorrect.

There is a clear advantage to mixing loads especially when you are expecting a specific threat. Some here have mentioned snakes. Obviously a snake shot would greatly enhance your ability to deal with that threat.

I had a situation come up several years ago and mixing my mag allowed me to prepare for this threat with a more effective ammunition. Police detectives warned us that some robberies had occurred and that the bad guys were using bullet proof vests. I loaded 6 magsafe super swat loads (capable of defeating IIa vests) mixed with my corbon 135 grain JHP's in my 10mm Glock 20. Numbers 2,4,6,8,10, and 12. Once the threats were arrested I returned my mag to normal (for me).

I know some will say just shoot them in the head and to them I say easier said than done especially under duress and on a small potentially moving target.

shafter
May 18, 2010, 04:01 PM
Howwie, You hang out a skateboard parks where everyone is hanging around doing drugs and looking for fights? You do this while carrying? :confused:

Double Naught Spy
May 18, 2010, 06:49 PM
True; but since you can only use lethal force (and less lethal ammo is still lethal force) when you have a reasonable and immediate fear of death or serious injury, you are taking a big risk (that of death or serious injury) when you use less lethal means.

Maybe, as you said, it depends on scenario and context.

It depends on the scenario and context. If he breaks into your house, the fact that he tries to use a lesser means of force than lethal force will not stop you from using lethal force to repel him in most states.

The statement was...
When you draw your firearm, you provide the other party with legal justification to shoot you in self-defense.

So he isn't using a lesser force but trying to shoot me for defending my daughter from him.

Whether it be citizens or the cops, when we draw our guns against a person or persons who are committing such as crime as to warrant the threat of lethal force (the draw) or lethal force, they then don't have legal justification for shooting the citizens or cops in self defense.

howwie
May 18, 2010, 08:31 PM
haha Nooo I avoid such places. But in my youth I did and never realized how STUPID it was

TXGunNut
May 18, 2010, 09:59 PM
Head-Space: can we expound upon this? The idea of a continuum of force is that we, as reasonable people, STOP escalating as soon as we obtain the desired result. If six works, seven isn't necessary. There's no need for step seven if step six, or five, or...you get the idea...works, and it does every day. Yes, if we commit to six, we must also commit to seven, but a favorable action by our adversary negates the necessity for seven. Step six has caused me some sleepless nights, step seven is a whole 'nuther matter. I don't want to go there, do you?

XR750
May 19, 2010, 04:38 AM
I load (6) Six Rnds 110 Gr Hollow Points 357 mag.

chrisbarcelo
May 20, 2010, 06:10 AM
I used to alternate the rounds in my magazines. But Im not at ease with the arrangement JHP followed by ball ammo, etc. Now, I just load my trusty 1911 with ball ammo, Ive been practicing with ball on the range with no jams. At least Im confident that my gun wont have any feeding issues when I need it most.

Glenn E. Meyer
May 20, 2010, 09:57 AM
How do folks who alternate fmj, hardball with HP analyzed the risk of needing such to 'penetrate' likely opponents as compared to the risk over overpenetrating and shooting an innocent.

The latter does happen by the way. Is that a greater risk than the crime not stopping if you put a round in someone.

Or are you fussing about extreme cases, like giant fasto absorbs rounds in stomach and then kills you with an extremely lucky shot with a 22 mag. That's pretty rare.

Except for initial snake shot rounds for outdoor carry and snakes - I really don't buy into the "I have to penetrate a car or crazed meth body armored zombie" as compared to the overpenetration risk.

threegun
May 20, 2010, 12:01 PM
Glenn, The body armored thugs I mentioned were a real threat. Rare to the point that we never even considered it a possibility until HCSO detectives warned us of the threat in our area by a single group. I still only prepare for this rare event with my failure to stop drills.

As for your question........How do folks who alternate fmj, hardball with HP analyzed the risk of needing such to 'penetrate' likely opponents as compared to the risk over overpenetrating and shooting an innocent.
.........I can only answer by saying I will do all possible to avoid harm to innocents however my first and foremost duty is to survive the encounter. If I feel it necessary to load a round more prone to over penetration it will be for good reason (in my mind).

Heck many of the 1911 guys can't even consider hollow points for reliability reasons. Should they only engage vehicles or fat guys?

I'm gonna load what I feel will aid me in doing what needs to be done to win the fight. If mixing a mag to cover different threats is needed so be it.

Dave R
May 20, 2010, 10:07 PM
How do folks who alternate fmj, hardball with HP analyzed the risk of needing such to 'penetrate' likely opponents as compared to the risk over overpenetrating and shooting an innocent.I alternate, and I don't think the risk of overpenetration with .380acp is very high.

As others have said, I don't think too many people with "major" handguns alternate. Just those of us with minor calibers.

booker_t
May 25, 2010, 07:32 AM
Except for initial snake shot rounds for outdoor carry and snakes - I really don't buy into the "I have to penetrate a car or crazed meth body armored zombie" as compared to the overpenetration risk.

Glenn, I tend to agree with you.

I feel that too many people only assess risk regarding the consequence aspect, and don't take into account the probability component. A particular event may have a catastrophic outcome but an extremely remote probability of occurance, in which case the risk of that event is medium or even low. On the other hand, a different event may have a negligable or marginal outcome but be extremely likely to occur, which would carry with it a higher level of risk.

How many people who "set up" their magazine loads really do any involved risk analysis? Do you come up with a list of potential events in your life, do the risk analysis, and then rack & stack them to determine your "combat load?"

Glenn, I've been reading your work and I'm interested in your take on the effect on a shooter's decision making if they have a mixed load magazine, in a self defense scenario where the potential for collatoral damage from over penetration is real. Would the armed citizen hesitate, or would their reaction be slowed as a result? What if the first few rounds out of the gun were less-than-lethal, how does that affect their reaction, and do you think they are more likely to draw on an assailant given that loading? It seems to me that it would tend to foster escalation rather than peaceful conflict resolution or flight/retreat.

Glenn E. Meyer
May 25, 2010, 09:47 AM
Good question - kind of busy now - so I'll deal with it later. Thanks for thinking deeply about the issue.

ClydeFrog
May 25, 2010, 10:35 AM
I say; "Mix drinks, not magazines!" ;)

Really, I do not mix rounds in magazines or advise any LE officer, armed PI/security guard or licensed citizen to do it.
It makes much more sense to use one type of load then switch with a fully loaded spare mag or 2 with a different round.
Like Glaser Safety Slugs in the pistol and CorBon PowRBall in a spare magazine. Or a .45acp 200gr JHP +P Gold Dot in the pistol with a spare mag loaded with 230gr milspec FMJ.

I knew a MP SGT in the military who would carry a Glaser Blue Safety Slug 9mm round in the chamber but 15 rounds of 9mmNATO FMJ in his own S&W 5906. That was many years ago when Glasers Magsafe etc were $2/3.00 per round and not that popular with the US shooting public.

CF
ps: In one of his non fiction books about his military service in SE Asia, CDR Richard "Demo Dick" Marcinko, US SEAL(retired), www.dickmarcinko.com , wrote that he'd load his CAR-15/M-16 5.56mm mags with red tracer rounds first then the FMJ/NATO rounds. That way in combat he would quickly know his rifle was going dry, ;).

threegun
May 25, 2010, 11:09 AM
US SEAL(retired), www.dickmarcinko.com , wrote that he'd load his CAR-15/M-16 5.56mm mags with red tracer rounds first then the FMJ/NATO rounds. That way in combat he would quickly know his rifle was going dry, .

IMO a good tactic and yet another reason to support mixing mags.

booker_t
May 25, 2010, 02:54 PM
The idea of putting a tracer near the end of your mag has been around for a while. Unfortunately, it doesn't jive well with the Geneva Convention regarding military operations, and if you ever shot a would-be mugger/rapist with anything that contained incendiary components, well, you might as well just leave the country haha.

ClydeFrog
May 26, 2010, 01:40 AM
I highly doubt any US law enforcement or armed citizens are even using any kind of tracer or incinerary type handgun round in 2010, let alone, mixing loads.

The late author Robert Boatman; www.Boatmanbooks.com made the point about mixing rounds in a carry/duty handgun magazine saying that he chose not to for his regular Glock 36 model .45acp. He did use other rounds in spare mags saying it could help for extended ranges, barriers, etc. That to me is much more practical than mixing rounds.

It's up to the person or LEO/armed professional to decide. It's their life at risk.

Clyde

threegun
May 26, 2010, 06:18 AM
BookerT, I think you are dead on about the liability involving the use of tracer ammunition. That said it is still a great tactic IMO especially in a military or perhaps riot defense setting. It also supports the arguement of those of us who will mix mags as we feel the need.

I have mixed tracer 762x39 rounds into my 75 round drum mags every 4th round back when I lived near an area prone to rioting.

Skans
May 26, 2010, 10:04 AM
There is one instance where anyone who owns an automatic pistol should consider using different rounds. If your gun doesn't feed a particular type of defensive ammo you really would prefer, then that's the round you might want to consider keeping chambered, and load the magazine with rounds that your gun feeds with no problem.

For example, I have an AMT .45 Backup. It can be a little picky about what hollow-point ammo it will feed. Ball ammo is no problem - it will eat any ball ammo like candy. For awhile I was keeping one hot hollowpoint in the chamber and then loading the rest of he magazine with jacketed ball ammo. Since I would only use the gun at a distance of less than 10 feet, it's a good chance that first shot will really count - so, why not chamber it with the best round since feeding wasn't an issue.

Note, that I have since replaced the recoil spring with a new wolf spring and it now feeds hollowpoints with no problem. I think weak recoil springs gave the AMT backup a bad reputation.

ClydeFrog
May 27, 2010, 12:15 AM
As for me, I'd NEVER carry any semi auto pistol that did not fire, feed or cycle 100% of the time with the selected pistol round(FMJ-JHP-Glaser Safety etc).

Many years ago, I read a gun magazine article where the writer noted how a police detective he knew carried a old P-38 9mm on duty. The plainclothes detective KNEW the P-38 would jam with JHPs every 2-3 rounds but still used it on duty. Most people would not carry or use a firearm like that but others(like the detective) did not give the same type of concern towards weapons/ammunition.
I would either change the gun, change the ammunition or see exactly how or why a pistol would misfire or jam.
I can't speak for every gun owner, security officer, sworn LEO or military service member but I only use pistols that I know will work 100% all the time.
Some may think $$$ is more important than their safety but not me.

wayneinFL
May 27, 2010, 01:57 AM
Note, that I have since replaced the recoil spring with a new wolf spring and it now feeds hollowpoints with no problem. I think weak recoil springs gave the AMT backup a bad reputation.

I think that's the real solution.

BTW, I just picked one of these up about a month ago, but didn't have any hollow points to load for it. I'm going to get it out to the range with some JHP's and wring it out one of these days. Where did you get the Wolf spring? I had no idea anyone made parts for this gun. Does someone still make mags for it?

Skans
May 27, 2010, 08:33 AM
Off Topic (re: 45 AMT Backup information): WayneinFL,

Mags for the .45 Backup, while not common can be found without too much difficulty. I just picked up another factory mag at a gunshow a couple of weeks ago. Plus, you can find them on line.

Beware - there are a lot of aftermarket mags available for this gun. I took my AMT to the gunshow and tied two aftermarket mags out, just to see if they would fit. NEITHER would fit - a tad too long. Plus the follower was plastic and a different shape. Stick with factory magazines!

Wolf makes a good guide-rod/recoil spring and they have them in stock - I just purchased one and it cost about $12 with shipping. It really makes a difference - highly recomended!

One other think I will tell you about AMT 45 Backup parts. You can find parts for this gun on Gunbroker, etc. I recently purchased a complete parts set for mine. HOWEVER, unknown to me there were two versions of the AMT 45 DAO Backup manufactured. The slides and the barrels are slightly different and will not interchange without some significant modifications. Comparing the two barrels side-by-side, the ramps are significantly different - other than the ramps, the barrels are identical. Comparing the two slides side-by-side, one was made with some kind of firing pin safety plunger and one lacks the firing pin safety plunger. Either slide will easily fit to the frame and appear to operate ok when you rack the slide. The problem is that when you press the tigger, you can't pull it back far enough to release the hammer. I could probably modify the slide enough to make it work, but I don't think there is any way to get the barrel to work.

FWIW, I've been very pleased with this gun for concealed carry. It's well worth taking the time to tune it and get it running 100%. You'll read a lot of complaints about this gun which, IMHO are complete BS. It'll feed hollow points just fine, so long as you are using a good factory magazine and replace the old guide-rod spring with a wolf spring. Some light polishing might help, but I don't think that's really necessary.

All of the other parts seem to be identical - so I'm too dissapointed as I have spares of the firing pin, extractor, ejector, hammer, trigger, springs, etc., and these are the likely parts to need replacing.