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riverwalker76
May 1, 2010, 09:15 AM
Has anyone seen a Magpul Masada for sale to the civilian yet? I know they are in production for the military, but didn't know if they had a civilian version to date.

Gelgoog
May 1, 2010, 09:51 AM
I think you mean Bushmaster ACR...which has been out for many months now, and I have seen my local shops with one. Magpul does not produce them, they sold the design to bushy.

GalilARM
May 1, 2010, 01:09 PM
In short, they have been out for a bit now, but Bushmaster jacked the price up to almost 2300$, used an M4 profile barrel, 1/9 twist, and the 'standard' model has a fixed stock

AKA Bushmaster ruined a perfectly good gun and is price gouging the hell out of it.

Get the FN Scar if youre in the market for a high dollar combat-grade weapon

P99AS9
May 1, 2010, 01:22 PM
Yes sir, like Gelgoog said, the Bushmaster ACR been out for a few months now. Unless switching the caliber of the rifle quickly is important to you, I personally would buy an FN SCAR-L or wait untill the HK MR556 comes out.

GalilARM
May 1, 2010, 02:14 PM
and switching calibers isnt even really a viable option until Bushmaster gets more stuff available to us to do so

RockyMtnTactical
May 1, 2010, 02:22 PM
I wish the Magpul Masada was available for sale. I would buy that. Don't want an ACR though.

smince
May 1, 2010, 03:27 PM
but Bushmaster jacked the price up to almost 2300$,Magpul themselves admitted the original price point of $1500 was unrealistic.

Gelgoog
May 1, 2010, 08:14 PM
yea but magpul also gave us that quote for a much different rifle. Bushmaster gave us a stripped down rifle that weighed several pounds more and jacked up the price. I could understand the initial price point if bushmaster did all the R&D ( they have to cover their costs some how) but all they did was buy the design, make it crappier and expect us to pay it because of all the hype.

Screw Shrubmaster. If I want to throw my money away I will invest in the stock market.

tirod
May 1, 2010, 10:34 PM
Priced Colt parts lately? Usually double the going rate. And Colt does not sell a full milspec carbine to the public. The civilian versions are admittedly not milspec nor do they follow the TDP.

It's apparent that Remington is price protecting it's ACR. Either to recover startup costs, or for a potential contract bid on the Improved Carbine that will be selected in the next few years.

It's important to remember the fact that Magpul sold the design specifically because they don't do complete rifles. Metal smithing and managing fabrication of barrels is not in their skill set. They do polymers. Whatever price they may have given initially was admittedly optimistic and incorrect.

I was never an AR fan until recently, .308 roller locked semi autos were obviously far superior - or so I thought. Compared to the AR, an HK was dirt cheap, in the day. I've learned different.

I may not like the pricing of a firearm, but sour graping the actual features and inherent efficiencies isn't the smartest thing to do. Give it some thought - the ACR does incorporate some things no other battle carbine has.

Polymer lower - state of the art now. Remingtons Nylon 66, the HK family, and Glock have prove the concept and execution. Choate Machine offered the furniture for tactical use from the seventies. It's actually old school. In this case, it even offers a less expensive method of having bigger magazine wells and larger calibers.

Extruded aluminum upper - cheaper and easier to final machine than forged.

Changeable barrel by the user - very few soldiers will carry a spare in the field. The armorer having one immediately available is a big plus. For the civilian shooter, even better.

Ambidextrous charger - currently a left side, but it can be switched to a right side for lefties, or competition. No losing the target picture or moving the trigger hand in loading.

Adjustable gas piston, and quick disassembly, plus a barrel handle. Back up sights, and a folding stock with no buffer tube in the way.

It all remains to be seen if it goes any further, but since it is in actual form and can be actually used and tested, it will help raise the bar for any new weapon adopted by our military.

Kit out a AR with all that, it won't be 1500 either. Give it a decade if adopted, the ACR might still be over 1800, but with inflation etc. it will be right at the price point of the average service rifle.

Remember what the Masada was, that Magpul had no choice but to sell it to see it exist. If the weight and price went up, that's reality, not the fantasy toy gun so many played with in a video game.

Reality isn't what you plan, it's how things actually turn out.

RT
May 2, 2010, 05:49 AM
For that price I would rather have a SCAR, Steyr AUG, or a FAL paratrooper carbine.

Bartholomew Roberts
May 2, 2010, 08:05 AM
Polymer lower - state of the art now. Remingtons Nylon 66, the HK family, and Glock have prove the concept and execution. Choate Machine offered the furniture for tactical use from the seventies. It's actually old school. In this case, it even offers a less expensive method of having bigger magazine wells and larger calibers.

Extruded aluminum upper - cheaper and easier to final machine than forged.

Except that these two features that are supposed to make it cheaper to produce, haven't done anything to bring the price down to a competitive level. In addition the polymer lower limits how much you can modify the lower receiver (new grips, more/less flared mag well, etc.) without changing the entire lower.

No to mention the wonderous mystery on how Bushmaster managed to produce a polymer and extruded aluminium carbine with a 16" barrel that is just a pound shy of the unloaded weight of an M14 with steel and wood.

Changeable barrel by the user - very few soldiers will carry a spare in the field. The armorer having one immediately available is a big plus. For the civilian shooter, even better.

How is it better for the civilian shooter? At the current ACR price, I can just buy a spare upper for an AR15 and come out ahead on money as well as not having to rezero when I swap. Not to mention I don't have to worry about the group size on the rifle changing depending on the amount of tension used to ratchet the barrel nut (as already documented on civilian ACRs)

Ambidextrous charger - currently a left side, but it can be switched to a right side for lefties, or competition. No losing the target picture or moving the trigger hand in loading.

The non-reciprocating ambi charging handle is a nice feature; but unfortunately, it doesn't quite make up for the difference in cost.

Adjustable gas piston, and quick disassembly, plus a barrel handle. Back up sights, and a folding stock with no buffer tube in the way.

You've just described a SIG 556 $1,550 (http://www.gunsamerica.com/921616315/Guns/Rifles/Sigarms-Rifles/SIGARMS_556.htm) without MBUS polymer.

Kit out a AR with all that, it won't be 1500 either.

You know, I've done the comparison and a BCM cold-hammer forged midlength with the comparable features I actually use comes in at $1,650. Of course, it won't have the quick change barrel and I won't be able to fold the stock; but for the price difference, I can live with that. It will also be a pound lighter and have several improved features in other areas.

Technosavant
May 2, 2010, 08:17 AM
Of course, it won't have the quick change barrel

I'm not sure why people act like the AR doesn't have quick change between calibers and that this is a new thing for the ACR to introduce.

While you'd swap the entire upper and not just the barrel, it's two pins and 30 seconds. I'd be surprised if a complete AR upper costs more than a conversion kit for the ACR (yeah, you'd need to swap over the optic on the AR, but the ACR's optic would need to be re-zeroed every swap too).

Comparing the ACR to things like the AUG and FS2000, it still looks overpriced to me; it's a neat gun, but I think they were seeing the only competition as the SCAR, not the AR-15 and other more established designs.

Willie D
May 3, 2010, 03:34 PM
It's apparent that Remington is price protecting it's ACR. Either to recover startup costs, or for a potential contract bid on the Improved Carbine that will be selected in the next few years.



This has been my best guess too. They can't sell the public a rifle for $1500 and then charge the government $2500. If they feel like they might be in the running for a service rifle contract they are going to keep their pricing options flexible, which means for now the current price will probably stand.


Not saying the government price would necessarily be that high, they'd probably like some leeway so that they can come in under the other bidders but not by much.

gotigers
May 3, 2010, 04:58 PM
For that price I would rather have a SCAR, Steyr AUG, or a FAL paratrooper carbine.

^This. If the ACR was $1700 maybe. But it is still, what 8 lbs. Get a new Ruger SR556, Adam Arms, CMMG, Spikes, etc, if you want a piston. It will be lighter. You will lose out on switchable barrels.

Edit: While you'd swap the entire upper and not just the barrel, it's two pins and 30 seconds. I'd be surprised if a complete AR upper costs more than a conversion kit for the ACR
good point