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45ACPShooter
March 3, 2010, 02:06 AM
Doctor Tells of a 19-Gunshot-Wound Survivor
By MICHAEL WILSON
It has been one of the more lingering questions surrounding the shooting of Sean Bell: How can anyone sustain 19 gunshot wounds and live to tell about it?
The day after Joseph Guzman had his thorny day in court in the trial of three detectives charged in Mr. Bell’s death, he became the center of attention during the testimony of the surgeon who kept him alive on Nov. 25, 2006.
The surgeon, Dr. Albert Cooper, was attending in the trauma unit of Mary Immaculate Hospital that morning when the call came in announcing two patients with multiple gunshot wounds were en route.
Dr. Cooper, the medical team and hospital staff members convened in the trauma bay and waited, with little idea of what had just transpired. Mr. Bell, Mr. Guzman and Trent Benefield had just left Mr. Bell’s bachelor party at Club Kalua in Jamaica, Queens, when officers investigating the club, believing the men were armed, followed them. In the confrontation that followed, five officers opened fire with 50 shots, killing Mr. Bell and wounding Mr. Benefield and Mr. Guzman.
Detectives Michael Oliver and Gescard F. Isnora face charges of first- and second-degree manslaughter and first-degree assault. Detective Marc Cooper faces two misdemeanor charges of reckless endangerment. All three are on trial before Justice Arthur J. Cooperman, who is hearing the case in State Supreme Court in Queens without a jury.
Dr. Cooper was the prosecutor’s last and, coincidentally, 50th witness in the so-called “50-shot case.” He was called to establish the nature of the injuries upon which the assault charges are based. Prosecutors rested their case on Wednesday, and the defense is expected to call its first witness, Officer Michael Carey, who fired three shots and was not charged, on Thursday.
Mr. Guzman and Mr. Benefield were rushed by ambulance to Mary Immaculate, and a quick look told Dr. Cooper the priorities of the situation, he said. Mr. Benefield had been shot in the calves and in one buttock and was crying out in pain, but Mr. Guzman was in a much more dire condition.
“He was telling me in somewhat of a mumbling voice that he should live and I should help him to live,” Dr. Cooper testified on Wednesday about Mr. Guzman, who has been described by some as a medical marvel for being able to walk again.
“He appeared to be confused and somewhat combative,” Dr. Cooper added, “which was indicative he was probably in severe pain.”
The doctors stabilized him with an air tube for his breathing, and began a head-to-toe inspection of Mr. Guzman’s body, finding 19 bullet holes, including several in his legs, his abdomen, at least one in his chest and one at his cheek bone in his face, which appeared superficial, a glancing shot.
“My clinical suspicion is he had some lung trauma,” Dr. Cooper said. “We immediately placed a chest tube which yielded blood, a lot of blood.”
Then, more stressful signs: a catheter also yielded blood, suggesting internal injuries to his bladder or urinary system.
“His blood pressure’s stable, his airway’s stable, so I think I have a little time to do further investigation,” Dr. Cooper said.
CAT scans and X-rays on Mr. Guzman showed bullets and bullet damage near a kidney and spillage from holes shot through his intestines.
“We made sure blood was available” and gave Mr. Guzman a tetanus shot, Dr. Cooper testified. Then, he began to operate with an incision to the patient’s belly. “Upon entering his abdominal cavity, we noted blood in his abdominal cavity,” the doctor continued.
Doctors packed dressing in all four corners of the cavity, then pulled it away, looking for blood and spillage from his digestive tract. Dr. Cooper found both intestinal content and fecal matter from Mr. Guzman’s colon in the cavity, potentially lethal.
“It has very dangerous bacteria,” Dr. Cooper said, adding that it could have led to a deadly infection.
The team quickly stapled the holes to the intestines and colon, removing one piece that was “shredded,” he said. They sealed up the cavity and sent Mr. Guzman to the intensive care unit, he said.

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/04/02/doctor-tells-of-a-19-gunshot-wound-survivor/

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/04/02/nyregion/exhibit-36D.large.sub.jpg

Dr. Albert Cooper’s sketch of Joseph Guzman’s torso showing seven dots where bullets were found inside his body.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/04/02/nyregion/exhibit-36B.large.jpg

A sketch of the bullet holes discovered on Mr. Guzman’s body.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/04/02/nyregion/exhibit-36C_11.large.jpg

CAT scan and X-ray images of Mr. Guzman. The three X-rays from his torso, at far left, show tiny white specks, which are bullets.

Skans
March 3, 2010, 08:36 AM
I didn't find any mention of caliber?

mete
March 3, 2010, 09:11 AM
NYPD uses 9mm but I don't remember what bullet.Originally they used ball.

cubesmoothie
March 4, 2010, 05:22 AM
Could have been a .45 and its still survivable. In as much as, i didnt read anything that said his heart or spine or brain was hit, or the major arteries right above the heart.

Ben Towe
March 4, 2010, 06:43 AM
Still a miracle he didn't die from shock.

Glenn Dee
March 4, 2010, 07:14 AM
147gr JHP 9MM

Double Naught Spy
March 4, 2010, 08:37 AM
I count 5 six hits to the pelvis area on Guzman, but not one mention is made of a broken or shattered pelvis.

Interesting how the drawing of the back side of the shootee has the left side mislabeled as right.

The the amount of lower body and leg shots, flinching seems like it might need to be an issue addressed in future training.

troy_mclure
March 4, 2010, 12:49 PM
Had a car bomb driver in iraq survive 19 thru and thru's. My squad was firing our m4's at the cars engine compartment to stop it, the guy was just collateral damage.

Not 1 bullet had truck bone or a vital organ, there wasn't even much blood.

He got out of the car and tried to run away.

We took him to the detainee drop off point(after we blew the car), but they ended up releasing him, and we saw him walking out on the street a few weeks later.

Composer_1777
March 4, 2010, 02:06 PM
He table below shows common performance parameters for several 9x19mm loads. Bullet weights from 115 to 147 grains are common. Loads are available with energies from just over 320 (ft•lbf) to over 472 (ft•lbf), and penetration depths from 8 inches to over 24 inches are available for various applications and risk assessments. The Marshall and Sanow "one-shot stop" rating varies from 63% for the non-expanding FMJ which produces a ballistic pressure wave of 266 psi to over 90% for the Cor-Bon 115 grain JHP which produces a ballistic pressure wave of 626 psi. The average incapacitation times (estimated for a 170 lb male shot in the center of the chest) vary from 7.3 to 13.5 seconds.


Manufacturer ///Load///Mass (grains)///Velocity (ft/s)///Energy (ft•lbf)///Expansion (inches)[20]///Penetration (inches)[20]///BPW[21](psi)///PC[20] (in3)///TSC[20] (in3)///OSS[20]///AIT[21] (sec)


Cor-Bon JHP 115 1350 465 0.55 14.2 626 3.4 38.5 90.6% 8.8

Double Tap Gold Dot JHP 124 1310 472 0.70 13.25 681 5.1 37.6 (est) 85.3%[22] 8.4

Federal HydraShok JHP +P+ 124 1220 410 0.67 13.4 584 4.7 44.8 85.7% 9.1

Remington Golden Saber JHP 147 990 320 0.62 14.5 421 4.4 33.2 74.5%[22] 10.7

Winchester Silvertip 115 1225 383 0.72 8.0 915 3.3 16.7 82.9% 7.3

Winchester WWB JHP 147 990 320 0.58 15.9 384 4.2 19.6 74.1% 11.2

Winchester FMJ 115 1155 341 0.36 24.5 266 2.5 10.6 62.9% 13.5

biohazurd
March 4, 2010, 05:09 PM
Now thats one lucky guy, 50 cent aint got nothing on him. Lol

simonkenton
March 4, 2010, 06:55 PM
Lucky guy, and some damned good, and quick medical care.

TenRing
March 4, 2010, 11:07 PM
Wow!

Snarlbuckle
March 5, 2010, 01:35 PM
I didn't notice a single hit to a vital organ at all. What surprises me is that not a single officer out of 5 could hit a single vital organ even when they dumped their magazines.

Just goes to show the importance of training and regular practice.

ATW525
March 5, 2010, 02:25 PM
I didn't notice a single hit to a vital organ at all. What surprises me is that not a single officer out of 5 could hit a single vital organ even when they dumped their magazines.

Only one officer out of five dumped his magazine (and reloaded and dumped a second). All three people hit were inside a vehicle at the time of the shooting which likely at least partially obscured most of their vital organs.

brickeyee
March 5, 2010, 04:24 PM
It would appear that at least some of the holes are through and through shots from the locations on the chest and back.

Not many in the center of the chest either.

Small blood vessels bleed smaller amounts of blood.

firespectrum
March 5, 2010, 08:46 PM
It's funny how someone will drop dead after getting hit with a 22 and then some people can get swiss-cheesed and survive. Luck goes both ways.

B.N.Real
March 6, 2010, 01:12 AM
The doctor is mistaken and I would guess he's not a handgun fan ( i.e. he lied on purpose).

The holes in front and back line up.

They are shoot through holes.

You can cut the number of times this guy was shot by half and he was'nt hit directly in the face or the chest in a vitals area.

Bad shooting with ball rounds.

And,he was very lucky.

Some people die from a single shot from a 22 a hundred yards away.

And I'll say this until I die of old age.

When a policeman tells you to "STOP! and put your hands where I can see them!"-YOU DO THAT.

You DO NOT run your mouth.

You DO NOT dig for the door handle.

You DO NOT DO THINGS THAT COULD MAKE THE POLICE OFFICER THINK YOU ARE ABOUT TO SHOOT HIM OR HER.

I'm an old white guy and I put my hands up ( or at least wait for instructions with hands out where they can see them- if that's what needs to be done to put a police officer at ease.

Composer_1777
March 6, 2010, 01:18 AM
The doctor is mistaken and I would guess he's not a handgun fan ( i.e. he lied on purpose).

No1 considers the fact doctors lie, but you are right. Doctors lie and cheat and we all are in awe because someone has "DR" in their name. We need to start questioning doctors, teachers, judges, everyone. Thank you for the post.

spotter123654
March 6, 2010, 11:01 PM
wow lucky, i agree with composer

Osageshooter
March 7, 2010, 01:02 AM
As a surgeon I have taken care of quite a few GSW injuries. My personal record is 7 rounds with a 380. That patient was injured more seriously than this one. "Shoot through holes" are often not what they appear to be. It is very difficult to determine. I have seen entrance wounds to the chest that exited at the back and the bullet actually tunneled around the ribs and never hit a vital organ. With pistol bullets, in my experience, "shoot through" often does not occur. Dividing the number of hole in this case to get the "real" number would very likely not be accurate. I don't see much motivation for a surgeon to lie about this, but mistaking the number of entrance wounds by one or two might be possible.

Double Naught Spy
March 7, 2010, 09:21 AM
The doctor is mistaken and I would guess he's not a handgun fan ( i.e. he lied on purpose).

The holes in front and back line up.

They are shoot through holes.

You can cut the number of times this guy was shot by half and he was'nt hit directly in the face or the chest in a vitals area.

Dividing the number of hole in this case to get the "real" number would very likely not be accurate. I don't see much motivation for a surgeon to lie about this, but mistaking the number of entrance wounds by one or two might be possible.

Right, there are 10 shots on the front from the knees up, but only 5 shots on the back. Obviously, the shots don't line up if there is a different number of shots on the front and back and so you can't just divide by 2. As noted, it would be quite unusual to have all the shots overpenetration with handgun ammo.

IDAHO83501
March 7, 2010, 09:57 AM
If this is a true story, the person hit 19 times and is still alive must have been shot by with a 9mm, or a BB gun. I am sure there are alot of "9" defenders trying to find some bullet or powder reason for this. After all those "9" guys are always coming up with excuses for that round. Again if this is true, then it shows once again that to knock down and kill, the 9 falls short compared to the .40, 10mm, and .45 not mention bigger rounds. Nut up, learn to handle a little recoil, and practice shooting something that with hits in the teens in this case "19" will leave a Swiss Cheese, not a survivor.:D

pax
March 7, 2010, 10:34 AM
Look, if you want to have a caliber war thread, go do it down in one of the Handgun forums. Not here.

pax

Rampant_Colt
March 7, 2010, 10:59 AM
The table below shows common performance parameters for several 9x19mm loads. Bullet weights from 115 to 147 grains are common. Loads are available with energies from just over 320 (ft•lbf) to over 472 (ft•lbf), and penetration depths from 8 inches to over 24 inches are available for various applications and risk assessments. The Marshall and Sanow "one-shot stop" rating varies from 63% for the non-expanding FMJ which produces a ballistic pressure wave of 266 psi to over 90% for the Cor-Bon 115 grain JHP which produces a ballistic pressure wave of 626 psi. The average incapacitation times (estimated for a 170 lb male shot in the center of the chest) vary from 7.3 to 13.5 seconds.


Manufacturer ///Load///Mass (grains)///Velocity (ft/s)///Energy (ft•lbf)///Expansion (inches)[20]///Penetration (inches)[20]///BPW[21](psi)///PC[20] (in3)///TSC[20] (in3)///OSS[20]///AIT[21] (sec)


Cor-Bon JHP 115 1350 465 0.55 14.2 626 3.4 38.5 90.6% 8.8

Double Tap Gold Dot JHP 124 1310 472 0.70 13.25 681 5.1 37.6 (est) 85.3%[22] 8.4

Federal HydraShok JHP +P+ 124 1220 410 0.67 13.4 584 4.7 44.8 85.7% 9.1

Remington Golden Saber JHP 147 990 320 0.62 14.5 421 4.4 33.2 74.5%[22] 10.7

Winchester Silvertip 115 1225 383 0.72 8.0 915 3.3 16.7 82.9% 7.3

Winchester WWB JHP 147 990 320 0.58 15.9 384 4.2 19.6 74.1% 11.2

Winchester FMJ 115 1155 341 0.36 24.5 266 2.5 10.6 62.9% 13.5
...and Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow are still full of crap :barf:

Lest anybody actually believe this rubbish posted above.


There are plenty of accounts of old-west shootouts with guys getting hit multiple times with .44/40 and .45 Colt and still surviving.

One shooting is anecdotal

Please read this for factual information:
http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm

Mr. Davis
March 7, 2010, 07:08 PM
And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why we shoot center mass.

Lawyer Daggit
March 7, 2010, 07:30 PM
Lucky none of the shots were to centre of mass.

kgpcr
March 7, 2010, 11:43 PM
Who says any of it is really true to begin with? I am sorry i am skeptical of such reports but i have researched a few and there is often more to the story than what is reported. For all we know he was shot with a .22. I heard of one story of a guy who took 7 shots COM from a .45 with 230grn HP ammo and lived. x-rays were there to back up the story, Found out later the x-rays were done at his autopsy. He dropped right on the spot.

Double Naught Spy
March 8, 2010, 08:21 AM
Who says any of it is really true to begin with? I am sorry i am skeptical of such reports but i have researched a few and there is often more to the story than what is reported.

You don't know how to use Google?

Contrary to the through and through theory of dividing the holes by 2, Guzman says that he was hit by 16 bullets, though the account says he was shot 19 times.
http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=news/local&id=6051484

Contrary to the drawing, Guzman apparently wasn't svelt. He was 6XL. This article has him shot injured 16 times with some being exits.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2008/04/25/2008-04-25_the_key_evidence_in_the_bell_case.html

His pic can be found here...
http://www.assatashakur.org/forum/prison-police-industrial-complex/30000-joseph-guzman-survivor-police-shooting-sean-bell-uhururadio-com-sunday.html

45ACPShooter
March 8, 2010, 04:16 PM
Another thing to consider is that Guzman was in a car when he was being shot so probably a lot of the rounds probably weren't as effective as they would've been because they had to penetrate the car first before striking him.

cubesmoothie
March 11, 2010, 07:42 PM
fact is, none of the bullets hit anything major enough to kill him. It could have been a .44 magnum, and unless there was some hydrostatic damage to his vitals the outcome would be the same, except maybe for the shot in his face. A 44 might have blown his jaw off.

tkopp
March 12, 2010, 03:27 AM
Originally posted by Mr Davis

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why we shoot center mass.

They may well have. The report said the individuals were in an automobile when hit by gunfire, right? When bullets travel from the outside of a car windshield towards the inside, they deflect down. The degree of this deflection is largely dependent on the weight and the velocity of the bullet -- a slow, heavy .45 will deflect much less than a fast, light 9mm. The box of truth guys demonstrate all this here. (http://theboxotruth.com/docs/buickot2.htm)

I don't have a handy link, but I remember a dashcam video in which a police officer rolled towards a suspect at the end of a pursuit and received a half dozen shots to the windshield, many directly in front of his face. All the shots hit his vest. Same problem. Return fire went wild over the suspect's head (deflected in the opposite direction).

Double Naught Spy
March 12, 2010, 10:52 AM
I don't have a handy link, but I remember a dashcam video in which a police officer rolled towards a suspect at the end of a pursuit and received a half dozen shots to the windshield, many directly in front of his face. All the shots hit his vest. Same problem. Return fire went wild over the suspect's head (deflected in the opposite direction).

Wow, there is a dashcam video that captures the aim/trajectory of the suspect's gun in front of the car and also the position of the officer's face inside the car?

tkopp
March 12, 2010, 11:25 AM
It picked up the suspect firing from about three meters beyond the hood of the car. The associated news article said the officer escaped without hospitalization. Why does my reading between the lines matter to you more than the point I was making? I did provide a link. With big, shiny pictures!

pax
March 12, 2010, 11:36 AM
tkopp,

That would square with my own observations from shooting through the windshield of a car during a class at ITI in Texas.

Rule of thumb: from outside the car, the windshield deflects rounds downward from the point of aim. If you aim at the driver's head through the windshield from outside the car, you will likely hit him in the chest. But from inside the car, the windshield deflects rounds upward from the point of aim. From inside the car, if you aim at the outside assailant's pelvis through the windshield, you will likely hit him in the chest. From inside the car, shooting through the windshield at an assailant, if you aim at his chest, you might hit his head, but you will more likely miss over his head.

Very cool to see in person, and while I don't anticipate ever needing to shoot through a windshield, I think it is useful intformation to have internalized -- just in case.

pax

JohnH1963
March 12, 2010, 04:14 PM
I dont think the question is how did Mr. Bell survive 19 shots or how many shots it would have taken to kill Mr. Bell...the question is how many shots did it take to stop Mr. Bell.

I honestly think the majority of people out there would be stopped by 1 shot to anywhere in the body because most would be too afraid to keep resisting in fear you might give them another pop. Also, a shot to anywhere on the body would probably significantly slow a person down if not stop. How many people are going to be running at full speed with a bullet in the leg? If someone is charging at me and I pop em 2-3 times before they get to me, I dont think they will have the same power before then after...

Most of these threads are really about killing the person, but it should be about stopping the person. Killing someone will get you into trouble either civally or criminally or both. We shouldnt be focused on that at all. I did not study this situation, but I can tell you with confidence Mr. Bell was probably sufficiently stopped with 19 shots to the body...

Double Naught Spy
March 12, 2010, 05:16 PM
Why does my reading between the lines matter to you more than the point I was making? I did provide a link. With big, shiny pictures!

Because your reading between the lines was stated as a fact and what you stated was unrealistic. Since dash cams usually do not show the occupants of the vehicle in which the cam was mounted, then you have no idea where the officer's face was when his windshield was being shot. For all we know, the officer was leaned over to avoid the onslaught and the suspect was simply pumping rounds into the the windshield in the area of where the driver would be located.

Making points is good and the Box o Truth does have big shiny pictures, but no big shiny pictures of the example you provided.

Points not considered, but if several shots had been through the area where the officer's face might have been, then later shots should not have been deflected nearly as much due to the damage incurred by preceding shots in or around the same spot.

While all this is hueristically interesting, it would appear that a large quantity of the bullets being fired at Sean Bell's vehicle were not through the windshield and so the issue of windshield deflection causing the officers to miss center mass may not be that relevant. In fact, the windshield looks pretty good for a car that had 50 rounds fired into it. The rear window and side windows are gone, but the windshield just has a bit of cracking, but otherwise looks pretty good.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/03/15/nyregion/15BELL.car.span.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/15/nyregion/15bell.html&usg=__-xG-1StUNkAr4J2BJinZFpYkU6k=&h=350&w=600&sz=55&hl=en&start=1&sig2=v0a_PkEyICHBNKokPgS-bA&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=5rvnFBCUtzinAM:&tbnh=79&tbnw=135&prev=/images%3Fq%3DSean%2BBell%2Bcar%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Dcom.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox%26rlz%3D1I7TSNA_en___US361%26tbs%3Disch:1&ei=JbyaS4elOIGXtgeDpqydAQ

grubbylabs
March 12, 2010, 09:52 PM
Didn't they find the officers not guilty?

crghss
March 12, 2010, 10:46 PM
Yes, I think they did. The car was moving towards officers and was considered a weapon. I think a Federal case maybe in the works against them.

No one knows how many rounds went through the doors, seats, hood, etc... I don't think ALL the bullets could only come from the front of the car and through the windshield.

Lets not forget police don't use super charged rounds in their weapons 9mm, .40 or anything else. And with good reason.

grubbylabs
March 12, 2010, 10:54 PM
We want the cops to be there for us but when they do their jobs they get punished? I guess only in America. Were they supposed to let the guy run them over or what? I remember the media was making a big thing about his wedding that was supposed to happen the next day or so. While I am weary of authority, we do pay and ask the police to do a job and when they do that job we should no punish them.


What kind of a moron thinks it's OK to charge a cop with a car and not expect to have something bad happen, he deserved to die.

gyvel
March 13, 2010, 01:50 AM
Rule of thumb: from outside the car, the windshield deflects rounds downward from the point of aim. If you aim at the driver's head through the windshield from outside the car, you will likely hit him in the chest. But from inside the car, the windshield deflects rounds upward from the point of aim. From inside the car, if you aim at the outside assailant's pelvis through the windshield, you will likely hit him in the chest. From inside the car, shooting through the windshield at an assailant, if you aim at his chest, you might hit his head, but you will more likely miss over his head.

Question: Windshields are laminated glass. Do the same rules apply when shooting through side windows or rear glass, which are tempered glass?

jbrown50
March 13, 2010, 12:37 PM
Quote:
Rule of thumb: from outside the car, the windshield deflects rounds downward from the point of aim. If you aim at the driver's head through the windshield from outside the car, you will likely hit him in the chest. But from inside the car, the windshield deflects rounds upward from the point of aim. From inside the car, if you aim at the outside assailant's pelvis through the windshield, you will likely hit him in the chest. From inside the car, shooting through the windshield at an assailant, if you aim at his chest, you might hit his head, but you will more likely miss over his head.

Question: Windshields are laminated glass. Do the same rules apply when shooting through side windows or rear glass, which are tempered glass?

The main cause of bullet deflection through a windshield is because of the angle of the glass. Side windows have less of an effect obviously because of their lesser angle in relation to where the shooter is standing. Windshield glass will obviously be tougher to get through because of the lamination but this will likely have more of an effect of causing the hollow point to collapse upon itself.

Bama_Flatpicker
March 13, 2010, 12:50 PM
Just another 2 cents... Center of mass doesn't always do it either.

Case study:
Unarmed victim, double tapped "center of mass" at 5 feet with a .45 ACP.
One bullet went UNDER the sternum and came out the other side (ouch).
The other bullet remained in the rib cage, yet damaged nothing "beyond repair".

The victim was able to run from the gunner, and was conscious sitting on the curb at the scene when LE arrived.
He left the hospital 2 days later, very sore but doing well.

My thoughts on all of this is that the human body is amazing.
It was just NOT his day... to die.

I try not to join in caliber debates, cause you just never can tell.
I just advise people...
Constant training, center of mass, with the biggest caliber you can carry, and pray that you never have to apply any of the training.

Just my thoughts.

Double Naught Spy
March 13, 2010, 01:53 PM
Question: Windshields are laminated glass. Do the same rules apply when shooting through side windows or rear glass, which are tempered glass?

Yes and no, but not exactly. Even regular window glass can cause deflection to a certain extent. The angle of incidence, that is, the angle the bullet impacts the tempered glass will have a lot more to do with deflection, even if the deflection isn't as much. Bullets will tend to punch through tempered glass much more so than window glass. Also, since the whole window tends to either fall away or prefragment, followup shots through tempered glass are not as affected as much and not all all if the window is gone.

Just another 2 cents... Center of mass doesn't always do it either.

Of course not and nobody was saying it did. Center mass shots simply tend to produce more significant results than peripheral shots.

9mm & .45 Fan
March 13, 2010, 10:16 PM
IDAHO83501,

Did you forget about the guy who was shot 27 times with .40 bullets? http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194853.

kgpcr
March 13, 2010, 10:37 PM
You know i just dont buy into the the hit him 15 times in the chest with a .45 and he lived stories. There was the one story where a female cop was shot in the heart with a .357 and lived. come to find out it was a bullet fragment . Just a little difference there!!! I have heard many stories of deer that got hit several times in the vitals only to find out later when we recovered the deer not one bullet hit vitals and were gut shots.

firespec35
March 13, 2010, 11:01 PM
Wether it was a good shoot or not (which I think it was) Whether the guy was a DB or not I think the trauma team that worked on him is a bunch of rockstars. The simple fact that there was fecal matter in the abdomen should have (and probably did) cause huge problems. After almost 14 years in Ems and working with one of the best Trauma teams in the country (Detroit Receiving) they still amaze me and watching them when I bring in a critical patient pushes me professionally to be my best.

donglock26
March 20, 2010, 09:46 PM
NYPD uses 124gr. +P Golddots. They work well for them. That said, with adequate penetration, shot placement makes a projectile lethal.

gyvel
March 21, 2010, 04:15 AM
Did you forget about the guy who was shot 27 times with .40 bullets?

Or was it 40 times with .27 bullets????:D

THplanes
March 22, 2010, 08:55 PM
The guy had 19 wounds but only 7 bullets were found in the body. That means there were 6 through and though shots to account for the extra 12 wounds. Therefore he was shot 13 times.

pax
March 23, 2010, 08:51 AM
Deleted one.

To repeat:

Look, if you want to have a caliber war thread, go do it down in one of the Handgun forums. Not here.

pax

Hondo11
March 25, 2010, 03:46 AM
There is no magical formula for the lethality of gunshot wounds. Obviously, some things will do more damage than others (CNS hits, a bullet through the heart) and probably kill you (or them) "better."

I personally witnessed a teammate take a large caliber round through his shoulder. The bullet hit the bone, deflected upward and out the top of his shoulder, passing through his neck and severing his carotid artery, finally exiting the other side of his face, taking most of it (his face) with it. He "should have" died, but he didn't. We kept him alive for 4 hours until he was finally medivac'd to a hosptial. He's still alive today.

I also personally witnessed a gunshot wound from a .357mag that completely severed the femoral artery. Despite my best efforts, he bled out in 2-3 minutes. He was taken to a hospital, where they somehow "jump-started" him and kept him alive (how, I do not know...I DO know that he was bled out and DEAD.) He is alive today.

Which brings me to the important point. Never assume that a certain wound is lethal...whether it be someone else or, more importantly, YOU.

You can shoot a deer with a .30-06 and they will run half a mile before they collapse. Why? Because they don't know they're "dead" until they PHYSICALLY die. A human that's twice as large as that animal will get shot with a round half as big and they'll lay down and die. Why? Because we have conditioned our minds to believe that when we're shot, we're supposed to die.

Don't die until you're dead.

45ACPShooter
March 27, 2010, 04:17 PM
I think there's a lot of knowledge missing from our understanding of wound ballistics. We understand what kills someone but we don't understand why some people stop immediately and others keep going.

Drugs, adrenaline, and sheer determination seems to keep some people going longer but other times it's not so clear. All these factors help keep someone going longer but they are not absolute.

I've often heard that the reason people will stop when shot even if it's not an immediately incapacitating wound is because we're so conditioned by tv and movies yet people were still stopping after being shot since the first days firearms were ever used. It wasn't like everyone was being shot multiple times and all of a sudden that stopped because of tv. I think in part it must be the shock and pain of being struck must cause most people to stop after being shot. There's probably plenty of other factors we just don't know about.