PDA

View Full Version : Weapon retention in open carry.


hr636
February 20, 2010, 03:34 PM
What are the best tactics for weapon retention in public open carry? It seems like it'd be pretty easy for anyone that knows how to operate your holster to disarm you from the rear no matter how well trained you are. Especially in public areas with close proximity interaction.

BillCA
February 20, 2010, 04:03 PM
Most of us CC with the firearm between 4 o'clock to 5 o'clock on our bodies (RH carry). Open carry generally positions the holster at or close to 3 o'clock.

With OC, moving the holster forward allows your arm to help block access to the gun. Often times you'll see a police officer's forearm lightly touching his service weapon when he's standing near other people.

If you're talking to someone, slightly turn your body so your gun-side hip is slightly away from them. This forces a frontal attack to reach past most of your body and gives you leverage in resisting. This usually called "blading" your body. It also reduces your torso profile during an attack.

If you plan to OC, research the types of holsters available and what owners have to say about them. Look for a level II holster, but be aware that these can slow your draw speed until you're completely practiced and comfortable with their operation.

Personal opinion: Avoid plastic holsters if possible. Fasteners used to connect the belt slide to the holster may cause the plastic to fail during a rough grab & yank. I prefer a closely fitted leather holster with a sight track to prevent rear take-aways.

Jim March
February 20, 2010, 04:26 PM
Another option is crossdraw just forward of the hip - for right-handers, call it roughly 10:00 with the butt forward.

With this setup you can block grab attempts with the off-hand forearm, or just rest your forearm on the gun in a non-threatening manner. The worst grab threats are from the rear or side and this crossdraw setup more or less eliminates those. It appears to be vulnerable from frontal attacks (butt forward) but not if you're aware and block such with the off-hand forearm.

In case of a grab, lock the gun down with the off arm and go for your backup weapon with your strong arm, or just punch/kick the crap out of 'em :).

If your strongside arm is tied up, the gun is far more accessible to your off-hand at this location, via the weird but usable "prairie twist draw":

http://www.willghormley-maker.com/AdvantagesOfCrossDraw.html

I make and use crossdraw rigs that are much more "high and tight".

Mine:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4021/4258670608_7e19501e40.jpg

One for a friend's Ruger P85-Mk2:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4038/4206422641_33c613f0d4.jpg

pax
February 20, 2010, 05:24 PM
It is my considered and entirely non-judgmental opinion that anyone who open-carries in public should definitely

wear a holster designed for passive retention (level 2 or above), AND
take a firearms-retention class from a competent instructor, AND
regularly practice those retention skills with equally-trained friends.


There are several different physical techniques for retaining a holstered firearm. But it's not a matter of being told "a move" or "a technique." It is a matter of mindset and practiced skills developed over time. You simply cannot learn a physical skill from reading someone else's written words--especially not a physical skill you're going to bet your life on. Get yourself into a quality class, and then practice those skills regularly, diligently, and seriously.

There are no shortcuts.

pax

KenpoTex
February 20, 2010, 05:38 PM
It is my considered and entirely non-judgmental opinion that anyone who open-carries in public should definitely

* wear a holster designed for passive retention (level 2 or above), AND
* take a firearms-retention class from a competent instructor, AND
* regularly practice those retention skills with equally-trained friends.


There are several different physical techniques for retaining a holstered firearm. But it's not a matter of being told "a move" or "a technique." It is a matter of mindset and practiced skills developed over time. You simply cannot learn a physical skill from reading someone else's written words--especially not a physical skill you're going to bet your life on. Get yourself into a quality class, and then practice those skills regularly, diligently, and seriously.

There are no shortcuts.
well said pax.

Shawn Dodson
February 20, 2010, 05:52 PM
What are the best tactics for weapon retention in public open carry? The "best" tactic is NOT to open carry as the gun may attract trouble instead of repelling it.

Drunks
Tweakers
Brazen street thugs who menance and taunt (knowing you'll follow "the rules")
Psychotics


And the potential for many other unexpected, inconceivable situations you're not prepared to handle.

When you open carry you relinquish the element of surprise to your adversary.

A gun is not a piece of jewelry with magical powers to repel trouble.

if you can carry concealed, by all means carry concealed. If you're forced to open carry, beware of the unexpected.

Cheers!

hr636
February 20, 2010, 06:50 PM
I do all of the above, I was just curious as to the techniques other people were using. I usually pivot my body away from people when they are behind me, and rest my forearm on the butt. I use a level II holster and have adequate training. I have tried cross draw method but it's too uncomfortable getting in and out of vehicles. I carry open because in my line of work I have to have service frame firepower available at all times, and CC is not an option especially with the amount of entering and exiting my vehicle I do. I usually carry at 2 o clock with my holster tilted 20 degrees forward. I have thought about possibly going with a tactical vest and holster mounted on my chest. I don't think this is an acceptable option considering the muzzle wouldn't be pointed in a safe direction at all times even if the weapon is retained safely.

Glenn Dee
February 20, 2010, 07:21 PM
I cant see cross draw as being condusive to good weapon retention... IMO it presents the weapon to an apponent butt first. In other words the opponent can get a firm shooters grip on the handgun as he grabs for it.

Jim March
February 20, 2010, 07:57 PM
Glenn, only from the front. And that's the area you're most likely to spot trouble coming from. It gives you the best opportunity to block problems.

Strongside carry is the one that gives me the creeps. It puts the gun butt towards somebody behind you.

w_houle
February 20, 2010, 08:15 PM
This usually called "blading" your body. It also reduces your torso profile during an attack.
The good part of that is being a smaller target, with a downside of turning something like a heart or lung shot into two lungs and maybe the heart, too.

Yeah, what Pax said:D

SaberOne
February 20, 2010, 09:53 PM
I carried a revolver (Model 28) as a LEO in the seventies. I also lived 10-minutes from Bianchi so I always purchased from them. In fact, I treated his daughter in the hospital but that’s another story. I absolutely loved the Model 2800 Breakfront holster and to this day, I have not seen anything better for security and a super fast draw. The holster is designed so the gun is pulled through the front of the tightly sprung clam opening. No officer ever had a gun taken from that fantastic design. Anyway, if I were to OC today, I would still prefer a thumb strap over an open style holster. I would love to see that style reintroduced for standard 1.5" size belts in barrels 2.5 ~ 6.0". Damn, I sure do miss those days'...

Wagonman
February 20, 2010, 11:15 PM
This thread is the reason I personally dislike OC. Way too much aggravation and gray areas as opposed to CC. I am paid to OC and wouldn't do it for free.

Ian0351
February 21, 2010, 05:34 AM
What are the best tactics for weapon retention in public open carry?

Don't let anyone get close enough to touch your hardware.

BillCA
February 21, 2010, 06:30 AM
hr636
Service frame power, in & out of cars a lot... sounds as though you work for an alarm company or large site security. A high-ride belt holster would help here, or a good shoulder holster under a light jacket.


SabreOne,
The Bianchi Breakfront was a good one in its day. But it was entirely possible to have the gun snatched in a front take-away (even snapped) and I used to illustrate it to new users of the holster.

jgcoastie
February 21, 2010, 05:46 PM
IMO, open carry has its place. I open carry my pistol every time I go hunting, regardless of the long gun that I'm bringing. I also OC when hiking, fishing, or just riding around in the boonies.

If I am headed towards town however, I CC. It is perfectly legal for me to OC, and the local climate in favor of guns couldn't be better, but I like being the only person (aside from my wife and a few very, very close friends) that knows I'm carrying.

I also OC when out at sea conducting boardings, but that's because it is part of my job and I have a boarding team with no less than three other people, one of which stays in constant visual contact. All of us are well-trained in what to do in the event of a "gun grab" both as the target of the grab and as responders. We conduct physical, hands-on training for all aspects of our LE duties regularly, weapons retention is one of the main topics that are covered the most frequent.

As Pax said, there are no shortcuts. Unless you have been specifically trained by your respective LE Agency or a reputable firearms instructor on weapons retention, it will probably be best for you to CC. It's not a bad idea for everyone to obtain weapons retention training, regardless of CC/OC preferance.

If you choose to OC, I would highly recommend that you only do so while accompanied by another equally trained individual who can assist in the event of a gun grab.

BlueTrain
February 22, 2010, 08:10 AM
For the reasons already mentioned, I also think concealed carry is preferable if you are really in public. Other places, however, those reasons are mostly irrelevant and normal, open carry gives you more options. I'm thinking here of when you might be spending a lot of time tramping around the woods or for that matter, driving in the woods in anything from a motorcycle to a jeep.

The first holster I ever bought was a canvas flapped holster for my Browning Hi-Power. For its purpose, I thought it was perfect, only it really only worked best in a cross-draw. But that method also worked better for driving and just plain sitting. I still have the holster. I also have a similiar holster, a little larger, that accomodates a Government Model, my P5 or my P345 or even a Ruger Vaquero.

A few pistols come with lanyard rings and those telephone cords that are in vogue now that pass for lanyards will work and retain a pistol to an extent but in true open carry under the circumstance I'm thinking of, I think that is offset somewhat by having something that might get hung up on something, though frankly that's never happened to me. Overall my concern, given just my own habits and behavior, is not having my pistol snatched but rather having it just fall out. I do, or used to, a lot of hiking in rough places (the geography, not the company) with some climbing now and then and falls are not an uncommon occurance and that's mainly what has influenced my thinking. Some of my experiences have suggested that webbing holds up a little better than leather, especially when it's wet but none of the things I've used in the back and beyond over the last 40 years are remotely fast, which might be a serious consideration to some.

Dwight55
February 22, 2010, 09:13 AM
Because I have my CHL, . . . I seldom OC, . . . but when I do, . . . it is in a holster with a full flap, . . . or at least a thumb break.

I used to work for a bank, . . . and I shuddered every time the Brinks guys would stop to load out. We were considered a "banker's bank" and supplied some other local banks as well as our 30+ branches.

The Brinks guys just sauntered around with their 4in revolvers in holsters that should have been thrown away years before, . . . worn out, . . . loose, . . . open top, . . . :eek: They could not have paid me enough...................

May God bless,
Dwight

TenRing
March 5, 2010, 04:39 PM
I see people OC-ing from time to time and I get the feeling that it would be easy to snatch guns from most of them. There seems to be an expectation that they will get respect because they have a weapon displayed. Actually what they are likely to get is a lot of attention from criminals and sociopaths who would like nothing better than to take the gun toter down a notch.

OC is fine in some circumstances but I don't feel comfortable doing it in public where other people naturally walk by or stand close to me. Out in the woods or on the trail during deer season, it's fine. If two guys worked together, the odds of them taking your gun are very high, regardless of the type of holster or training you have. These days, most muggings and robberies done by two or more people working together. It's always best to keep guns out of sight and therefore out of mind of criminals. Keep the element of surprise on your side whenever possible.

If I had to OC, I would use a high ride strongside leather FLETCH style holster with a forward cant and a thumb break so the grip is harder for someone to reach from the rear. I would tighten the adjustment screw to get a tight fit and I would keep my strong arm over the holster at all times.

Slopemeno
March 5, 2010, 05:50 PM
I think I have that same canvas HiPower holster, actually.

ritepath
March 5, 2010, 09:05 PM
You'll find when you open carry you don't let people get that near you. Like someone posted here, I'll lightly keep my forearm on my pistol when open carrying around people.

Visit Opencarry.org and you'll find 0 instances of anyone that open carrying having their weapon taken from them.

I like holsters with the thumb retention instead of those with the release on the outside of the holster. It just feels more natural if using the thumb as leverage unholstering.

I've never had any problems while open carrying...but then again I'm in a good area of the country, and only OC in my county and a few neighboring counties.

That being said I always CC when out of my county in larger areas around more of a population because I don't like feeling out of place.

grumpycoconut
March 5, 2010, 10:58 PM
Rule #1 - If someone tries for a disarm BE VIOLENT*!!!!!

Before you ever decide to carry you need to accept and internalize Rule #1. You need to accept that a disarm attempt is a life threatening event and there are no other rules beyond Rule #1. Once you acheive that mindset work out a handfull of easy responses.

-Respond!!! Slam your hand down on top of your pistol. If you are faster than him your hand will be in position to draw and shoot him if you get the chancehe needs shooting. Make sure you keep your elbow and arm tight to your body. If you let your arm chicken wing out a half trained bad guy will lever it out and forward peeling your hand from your peice and throwing you off balance forward. If you are slower than him and get there second you may cause him pain and distraction by slamming his hand between your hand and your gun.

-FIGHT!!! Drop your head and step into him. Head butt him. Foot stomp him. Eye gouge him. Ball kick him. Elbow smash him. Throat punch him. Bite him. Make him think about things other than your gun. Don't wrestle over the gun. Fight the snatcher.

-Disengage!!! Once he doesn't have hold of your gun, MAKE SPACE. If he needs shooting, SHOOT HIM. If he needs kicking, kick him. If you need to run away, RUN!!!

But what if my pistol comes out of my holster? you ask.

Remember Rule #1 - BE VIOLENT*!

If its in his hand either run or fight.

Running is good because folks have trouble with moving targets and you will get smaller as you get farther away. You might still get shot but that was always a possibility.

Fighting is good because folks have trouble shooting well when someone is biting them and trying to gouge out their eyes. You might still get shot but that was always a possiblity.

If its in your hand either run or fight.

Running is good because its nice to be away from people who are trying to hurt you.

Fighting is good because if you shoot people who are trying to hurt you they tend to stop trying to hurt you. If you are still in the clinch put muzzle to meat and shoot. Then shoot again. Then shoot again. Repeat until he's no longer trying to hurt you. Once he's no longer trying to hurt you run away.

Oh! I almost forgot! Shame on you for not noticing that the ninja was in the tree waiting to spring down on you and take your gun from your holster.:p

Oh! Oh! I forgot something else. Get some real training from someone with pretty certificates on his I love me wall. Your defense attorney will love being able to blame your actions on someone else.



* Merriam-Webster defines violent as: marked by extreme force or sudden intense activity. Use this definition not the sissified emotion ridden misdefinition some folks might be tempted to use to make me look like a violent wing nut for posting this.


DISCLAIMERS: This is not legal advise. I'm not a lawyer. I respect myself too much for that. I'm not responsible if you do what I just said you could do. You strapped on your piece, I didn't strap it on you. If things go bad and you have to do bad stuff to get out of it that's on you. (but good on you for doing what needed doing)

NRAhab
March 6, 2010, 09:38 AM
There are several different physical techniques for retaining a holstered firearm. But it's not a matter of being told "a move" or "a technique." It is a matter of mindset and practiced skills developed over time. You simply cannot learn a physical skill from reading someone else's written words--especially not a physical skill you're going to bet your life on. Get yourself into a quality class, and then practice those skills regularly, diligently, and seriously.

Truth.

If/when you open carry, you add another layer of "fighting" to the situation, as gun grabs and retention become very real and significant issues. I'm of the opinion that CCW holders should try to get some kind of hand-to-hand training, but if you're going to open carry it makes that sort of training absolutely necessary. When you open carry, you're not just betting your life on your gunfighting skills, but now you're including your overal physical condition and hand to hand skills as "risk factors" as well.

bamaranger
March 6, 2010, 11:45 PM
For the reasons already stated. Now there is a gun at every interaction you conduct in society. Yours! More skills and awareness necessary. And you give away the best weapon you have, the element of surprise.

You walk into a hot situation, and your wearing a sign, "Shoot me first".

It is not uncommon in my area for detectives and plaincloths officers to open carry, w/ a badge on the belt. No comms, no armor, etc. Same problems.

Glenn E. Meyer
March 7, 2010, 11:46 AM
I'm curious about something. What is the scenario for the gun being seized? For police, it is usually when they have to come in close contact with someone to restrain them or the like.

Civilians probably don't get into this type of situation. Is it a fist fight that turns bad?

Or are you targeted to steal your gun?

If it was the latter, why assume a gun grab first, so that you can apply a technique?

While folks say that they don't let folks near them - if you open carry in real life, do you not go into crowded checkout lines or other everyday situations?

Unless you see criminals overtly coming for you - if I were a stealthy gun thief, I might approach in a crowd and simply stab you several times. That might discombobulate your retention technique.

I remember being in the market and a school district cop (a skinny kid) was wearing his gun openly with his badge on his belt. I had to stand in back of him to check out. Would he not get in line if I were a bad looking person. One could have simply stabbed him in the kidneys and that's that.

I don't see open carry as walking around in Condition Yellow and with a force bubble around me as viable in real life - if there was a well though out attempt to get the gun.

My first move wouldn't be to grab your gun.

NavyLT
March 7, 2010, 12:24 PM
It is not uncommon in my area for detectives and plaincloths officers to open carry, w/ a badge on the belt. No comms, no armor, etc. Same problems.

They are all getting shot at and their guns taken? :eek:

Glenn E. Meyer
March 7, 2010, 12:31 PM
Police have a different deterrence level than a citizen in the supermarket parking lot. If you shoot a police man and take their gun, you can be sure that the effort to get you will be quite more intense than that of the civilian.

The open carry officer is not different from the uniformed officer if he or she is identifed with a badge.

BTW, police are likely to have their gun removed and to be shot with their own gun in incidents. That's why there was the move to retention holsters.

Some studies show that about 1 in 5 officers are shot with their own gun or that of their partner.

NavyLT
March 7, 2010, 12:38 PM
Some studies show that about 1 in 5 officers are shot with their own gun or that of their partner

1 in 5 officers are shot with their own gun or that of their partner? I had no idea that many police officers got shot! Does that include getting shot on the range during training too?!? 1 in 5 officers shot?!? And that does not even include the cops shot with a someone else's gun, not even their own! OMG!

That sounds like some Brady Campaign statistics to me.

What really amazes me is that in states like Vermont, Alaska, Washington, Montana, Idaho, Nevada (Las Vegas even!), Arizona, South Dakota, Kentucky, Virginia, North Carolina, Colorado, Nebraska, Kansas, Missouri, Louisiana, Alabama, West Virginia and Ohio - we can open carry with no permit, no training. And yet in these states there just isn't any reports at all of a civilian open carrier ever having his gun taken from him. And there certainly are no more reports of it happening than in any other state that is concealed carry only. Odd. I would think if it was such a big threat that it would actually be happening in real life.

Glenn Dee
March 7, 2010, 01:48 PM
I have to agree with Glenn Myers stats. Many police officers have been shot with their own gun, or that of another officer. I dont know if these stats are as one sided as they once were. But there have been improvements in equipment, and procedures. Security holsters, and disarming in certain situations. I believe the most common situation leading to officers being shot with their own gun was when finger printing prisoners.

Gun retention is IMO a serious issue for open carry, as well as CCW. Personally I practice the methods I learned for open carry with my CCW equipment. I truely believe that firearms retention begins with your equipment. Belt and holster. Personally I put security, and retention ahead of speed of draw.

Glenn Dee

jgcoastie
March 7, 2010, 02:00 PM
What really amazes me is that in states like Vermont, Alaska, Washington, Montana, Idaho, Nevada (Las Vegas even!), Arizona, South Dakota, Kentucky, Virginia, North Carolina, Colorado, Nebraska, Kansas, Missouri, Louisiana, Alabama, West Virginia and Ohio - we can open carry with no permit, no training. And yet in these states there just isn't any reports at all of a civilian open carrier ever having his gun taken from him. And there certainly are no more reports of it happening than in any other state that is concealed carry only. Odd. I would think if it was such a big threat that it would actually be happening in real life.

LT,
Agreed, I don't think it's nearly as big of an issue as some would have us believe. However, just as a matter of prudence, one would be wise to obtain some form of training when OCing in more populous areas. I'm not saying gun grabs happen often, but all that is necessary for a real bad day is for it to happen only once... To you.

Mr. James
March 7, 2010, 03:03 PM
What really amazes me is that in states like Vermont, Alaska, Washington . . . And yet in these states there just [aren't] any reports at all of a civilian open carrier ever having his gun taken from him. And there certainly are no more reports of it happening than in any other state that is concealed carry only. Odd. I would think if it was such a big threat that it would actually be happening in real life.

NavyLT - funny how that works, isn't it?

jgcoastie - quite so.

Ian0351
March 7, 2010, 04:42 PM
I think Glenn was saying that 20% of officers who get shot do so from a service weapon of themselves or their partner, not that 20% of ALL cops get shot with their own gun... why would anyone want to be a cop with those odds!?!

45Gunner
March 7, 2010, 04:59 PM
If one were to open carry, I would think one would have to be on full alert at all times i.e., eyes in the back of the head. I don't think I would open carry with less than a level 2 retention holster and make sure my arm covered my gun so that if some one were to attempt to take my gun, they would have to yank my arm, giving me an indication that perhaps something were amiss, if they could get that close to my "protected space."

I would think that perhaps a lanyard might be somewhat of a help to prevent a snatch and run. The gun, if snatched hard enough, might even be pulled out the snatcher's hand when they reached the end of the rope.

Just some random thoughts as I never really considered open carry even when I could. Many moons ago, when I was in the jungles of Vietnam, my Colt 1911 was in a holster with a flap and indeed a lanyard to keep it from going to far if I took a dive into a rice paddy.

Glenn E. Meyer
March 7, 2010, 08:10 PM
Sorry for not clarifying but it was clear that I was talking about during an incident. It was obvious.

Also, the point is well taken about where you open carry. First, it is a rare event and probably doesn't occur in high risk environs. VT is not the same as a downtown urban crime area. I could probably carry in our upscale mall if legal and not be threatened by the upper classes.

I would not feel that sanguine on Saturday night in south-side San Antonio. Nor do I think those folks are particularly scared of me.

That we haven't seen folks get taken on when they are safe areas to begin with is not good evidence. Let's seen open carry in a street festival that is alcohol fueled and crowded. Of course, you wouldn't go there.

You would have to be very silly or tactically incompetent to think that a smart determined predator could not take down a single Joe Open Carry. Police take that risk for different reasons than civilians.

BTW, I would support an open carry law just for accidental exposures but I wouldn't do it except in the field as when I was hunting.

OldMarksman
March 7, 2010, 08:27 PM
From NavyLT: What really amazes me is that in states like Vermont, Alaska, Washington, Montana, Idaho, Nevada (Las Vegas even!), Arizona, South Dakota, Kentucky, Virginia, North Carolina, Colorado, Nebraska, Kansas, Missouri, Louisiana, Alabama, West Virginia and Ohio - we can open carry with no permit, no training.

In Missouri, a Concealed Carry Endorsement (which requires training) is necessary for open carry except when one is hunting--and that is where open carry is lawful at all. In the populous counties, it is not permitted at all.

And yet in these states there just isn't any reports at all of a civilian open carrier ever having his gun taken from him.

Kinda hard to prove a negative, eh?

One of the interesting things about the internet age is that many assume that if they cannot readily find it by using a search engine, it didn't happen.

Now, is it really important whether the victim was a civilian or a sworn officer if the perp simply wanted the gun? In Missouri not long ago, a criminal took a gun from someone else to use it in a mass murder. No, the victim was not a civilian; civilians may not carry openly here. But is there any reason to believe that a civilian carrying openly would not have been assailed? I think not.

In that event, "retention" ceased to be a possibility when the perp used his revolver to shoot the open carrier in the back so he could take the high-cap .40 caliber weapon for his next expedition--see Glenn E. Meyer's post above.

Mr. James
March 7, 2010, 08:30 PM
That we haven't seen folks get taken on when they are safe areas to begin with is not good evidence. Let's seen open carry in a street festival that is alcohol fueled and crowded. Of course, you wouldn't go there.

Well, that's a most perplexing conclusion, given the paucity of evidence either way. Do we have any data on when and where people open carry? I would think the phenomenon is isolated enough that it would be hard to draw any conclusions on way or the other. Some carry openly in heavily urbanized areas (I often choose to). Some choose not to. Others only open carry in the woods. Good to go, no sweat to me. But I am not aware of any evidence that open carriers only carry "in safe areas." Heck, if it's that safe, why open carry? Why carry at all? And, conversely, if an area is so "alcohol fueled and crowded" as to imperil life and limb, why would a legally armed citizen (as opposed to, say, a street thug) go there at all, whether armed openly or concealed? There are many times I choose not to carry openly, but if fear for my safety by virtue of carrying openly was one of them, I'd pick someplace else to be.

Just wondering.

Glenn E. Meyer
March 8, 2010, 10:37 AM
It's a good point that we don't have enough data to conclude that open carry is safe in many environs that might be considered dangerous.

My point was that the proponents of it being just wonderful as it works in VT, didn't have enough situational data to draw a firm conclusion.

As I pointed pointed out before, we do know from police that guns can be taken away in altercations.

Of course, if the area is dangerous, you shouldn't go there. But then, why open carry in safe places - my point also?

Is the point of open carry, making a political statement, a personal statement or is it a tactical advantage? A mixture of all three?

Maybe it is good politics in areas with restrictive laws - that's an empirical question. I don't see the tactical advantage for a civilian in most circumstances with a determined opponenet.

OldMarksman
March 8, 2010, 11:10 AM
Posted by Glenn E. Meyer: It's a good point that we don't have enough data to conclude that open carry is safe in many environs that might be considered dangerous.

Yes, it is. Not only that , but I doubt that we will ever have enough real data from which to draw a conclusion.

Might this not be a good subject for some kind of scientific experiment? (No, I have no idea about how to design one!)

Of course, if the area is dangerous, you shouldn't go there.

Right! After I started carrying concealed, I decided that the best strategy for surviving the proverbial "gun fight" is non attendance. We avoid certain popular but questionable restaurant areas and malls even though I do carry. But: violent crime is increasing everywhere, and I contend that the only "safe" area would be in a walled, gated community. So--I do carry, because no place is necessarily always safe, and I also avoid areas that are known to have high crime rates.

We have a friend who is a detective. When she is not working she stays out of more areas than I do, and she carries a gun and is highly trained.

Wagonman
March 8, 2010, 02:19 PM
I remember being in the market and a school district cop (a skinny kid) was wearing his gun openly with his badge on his belt. I had to stand in back of him to check out. Would he not get in line if I were a bad looking person. One could have simply stabbed him in the kidneys and that's that

I could be stabbed in full uniform,it all comes down to SA and dumb luck. I am being paid for heightened SA while I am at work.

bamaranger
March 9, 2010, 04:59 AM
But that doesn't mean they haven't increased their risk, or increased their vulnerability.

If that's the train of thought, why arm our officers at all. Heck, most never even get near a shoot out, much less in one.

I am simply saying, why give up the element of surprise, and as an officer, increase your risk, while reducing your ability to observe one's surroundings w/o all who see you say/think/act accordingly "there's a cop".

With my outfit, it's contrary to policy to boot.