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View Full Version : 7.9mm werke mauser obendrof aka 8mm????


amjadkarim16
January 26, 2010, 02:30 AM
Hello all,
Am new to this forum.I belong to India.I have a 1937 make Werke Mauser Obendorf Rifle 7.9(engraved on top of barrel which you will be seeing in pictures)
please help me out on following points:
1.Can I fire 8x57mm cartridge(rimless) in it.
2.please see markings carefully and throw some light on its origin

will post pics as i have reached max limit.
regards
amjad

amjadkarim16
January 26, 2010, 02:31 AM
pictures of my mauser

amjadkarim16
January 26, 2010, 02:32 AM
more pics

amjadkarim16
January 26, 2010, 02:33 AM
pictures

amjadkarim16
January 26, 2010, 02:36 AM
pictures of rifle

Scorch
January 26, 2010, 02:52 AM
It appears you have a commercial Mauser sporter rifle in 8X57mm (7.9X57mm, 8mm Mauser) made in 1937 at Mauser Werke, in Oberndorf, Germany. It has the German proofs distinctive of the period. Without a full-length picture, it is hard to tell what model it might be.

You will need to check that it has the S bore (.323" groove diameter) to be safe firing commercial 8X57mm ammunition in it. There might be a letter S stamped in the barrel above the chamber. If not, you can measure the groove diameter with a caliper to be sure. If it has a letter J stamped above the chamber, do not fire commercial 8X57mm ammunition in it (the older J bore was popular among hunters for many years after the official adoption of the S bore).

mete
January 26, 2010, 03:00 AM
If it was made in 1937 it's certainly an S bore .

Mueller
January 26, 2010, 03:10 AM
It is not safe the assumption that it is .323, Commercial rifles could be ordered with .318 bores and indeed there is commentary in Bolt Action Rifles by Frank de Hass that some German gunsmith's preferred the undersized bore.

Cheaper to check the bore diameter than run a .323 commercial load or a handload thru it and potentially damage ones self.

Mueller
January 26, 2010, 03:23 AM
I just noticed something, is this rifle full stocked with bayonet lug as in Military configuration?

If it is then it "should" be a .323 bore, but measurement is still the best bet.

Also a picture of the left side of the receiver ring and a the top of the receiver ring showing the crest and other markings would help, identify what model it is.

Thanks.

Moloch
January 26, 2010, 03:45 AM
7.92 = 8x57IS / 7.92x57mm Mauser
All the same!

Mueller
January 26, 2010, 04:13 AM
When the round first made it's debut, it was called the 7.9mm (M88 Commission rifle), then later on 7.9x57I and or 8x57I. The commercial designation was 8x57I and used a .318 bullet and about 1905 they switched to a Spitzer bullet of .323 diameter and the designation became 7.92x57 IS.

7.9x57I loaded with a 227 JRN 2100 fps Average chamber pressure 45,500 psi
7.92x57 IS 198 FMJ 2476 fps Average Chamber Pressure 50,000

But both rifles and indeed ammunition switched between different designations like 7.9 IS and 7.92IS and 7.92x57IS and some I have see are just stamped 7.92 or 7.9 on rifles and some had barrels for the older .318 bullet, even though they were on M98 actions made in the 30's.

So when it comes to the 8 mm Mauser cartridge and Mauser rifles slugging the bore is about the only way to go.

Moloch
January 26, 2010, 04:20 AM
There are no 98's with the old 8x57I bore, the first G98's were made in the old caliber but were later rebuilt (prior WWI) to accept the modern spitzer bullet we know as the 8x57IS aka 7.92x57mm mauser.

Mueller
January 26, 2010, 04:27 AM
I have had in my possession an S/42 1937 Mod 98 in full military dress that was chambered for the 7.92x57I and a collector purchased the rifle from me, now no wartime M98's as far as he knew had been chambered for the older 7.92x57I, but Mauser made rifles for whomever wanted them and in whatever combination they wanted, so one really can't say what you might encounter before 1939.

Moloch
January 26, 2010, 04:46 AM
I think the barrel was changed for a very early one in 7.92x57I. There werent any military K98s in old 7.92x57I.

Mueller
January 26, 2010, 04:57 AM
It had the proper proofs/serials/patina and the collector payed me a significant amount of money and he had it inspected by several experienced collectors at his cost, before the deal went thru and I don't think he is going to do that for a rebarreld S/42.

He payed as much for this rifle as I have seen for several low grade, verifiable M98 Sniper rifles, I'll take his word for it, I sure took his money.

Mueller
January 26, 2010, 05:00 AM
Based on what I can see of the chamber crest it appears that the rifle was made for export to Portugal (reference sited Mauser Military Rifles of the World 4th Edit, Robert W.D. Ball page 292)

Now, it is possible that it could be the Portuguese Model 937-A Short Rifle which is similar to the German K98K with some minor differences.

1. a sling swivel on the bottom of the lower barrel band
2. sling attachment points on both the left side of the butt stock and on the bottom just behind the pistol grip.
3. the front sight should have protection ears instead of either a hood or exposed sight.

Portuguese crest on receiver and Manufacturers marks on the left receiver rail.

Caliber is listed as 7.92x57mm.

With a better picture of the crest I can say for certainty, if it is what I think it is.

Jimro
January 26, 2010, 05:00 AM
amjadkarim16,

You suck at taking pictures that would actually help identify your rifle.

However you screwed up and I could identify this, your rifle has Nazi proofs which means it was made for the German government. This means it is a k98 variant, although from your pictures I cannot tell if you have a rare model or not.

Unless there was a rebarrel at some point you have the .323 bore.

Pre-war rifles are considered to have the best metallurgy and are desired as actions for quality sporters. This has also made them rarer over the years and a milspec example can bring in a pretty penny. However the wood on yours is pretty bad and the metal finish is pretty worn, and odds are likely that there is significant pitting on the metal under the woodline.

Jimro

Moloch
January 26, 2010, 05:48 AM
@ Mueller

I've never heard of portuguese 98's in 8x57I. Remember, a lot of S/42 werent shipped anymore because war started and those rifles were issued to the german troops. And they were all 8x57IS. The germans didnt produce any old 8x57I since decades then, they didnt have ammo for them.
As far as I know some older Models were made in 8x57I right after the WWI but no S/42 and no K98k's. Never.

Mueller
January 26, 2010, 06:22 AM
Moloch,

Sorry for the confusion,

The Portuguese rifle is the one that I think amjadkarim16 is asking about, based on what I can see of the chamber crest.

Sometimes I have multiple tabs open and it was on your reply instead of mine.

My S/42 was made in 1937 and it was for barreled for the older 7.9 I, why it was I don't know, the collector speculated that it could have been for export to someone who had received a whole bunch of M88 Commission rifles and still had stocks of ammunition, which would make sense.

He had the rifle looked at and he said it was legit and payed a fair dollar for it.

So, is there more who knows, is it a one of a kind again who knows.

mapsjanhere
January 26, 2010, 08:23 AM
I agree on "picked 16 pictures only 2 of which show anything of interest". This is not a commercial gun, it looks strongly like something cobbled together. The receiver looks like a pre-war Portuguese (from 1937) while the barrel had a 1939 and on proof mark (might be eagle over J for repair, doesn't look like the usual N) and the magazine cap shows a war-time WAA stamp. The long distance sight and bayonet lug also say it's not a civilian model but a military K98 variant.
For full identification, we need a picture of the crest and a picture of the proof marks under the barrel as well as to know if the numbers on bolt and receiver match. That would tell us if it's a mainly intact Portuguese Mauser with some furniture replaced or a Frankengun, for example from Soviet capture manufacture.

amjadkarim16
January 26, 2010, 08:58 AM
hello,
Unexpected warm response from you.I have a small update.
I opened the rifle today by opening just two screws on the trigger guard plate and then I saw a lot of markings when wood was separated.I have taken pictures of all marking with my cell camera but I used a magnifying glass in order to bolden the markings. I think these will help you.
Also the wood doesnt run through full length of rifle but only midway.Will post picture of full rifle as well.
Please advise.
regards
amjad

amjadkarim16
January 26, 2010, 08:59 AM
more pics

amjadkarim16
January 26, 2010, 09:00 AM
pictures

amjadkarim16
January 26, 2010, 09:01 AM
picture of rifle

amjadkarim16
January 26, 2010, 09:02 AM
more pictures of the rifle

amjadkarim16
January 26, 2010, 09:03 AM
rilfe werke pictures

amjadkarim16
January 26, 2010, 09:04 AM
rifle mauser werke pics

amjadkarim16
January 26, 2010, 09:06 AM
opened rifle pics

amjadkarim16
January 26, 2010, 09:12 AM
sorry the picture is blurred
regards

mapsjanhere
January 26, 2010, 09:44 AM
Frankengun. There don't seem to be any German military markings on the receiver, this indicates that the action was mated to the barrel sometimes after the war. At the same time the stock was modified to lose it's hand guard, so oddly enough they didn't remove the barrel band what is usually done when converting military stocks to "sporter".

Scorch
January 26, 2010, 12:43 PM
Well, the picture of the "S" on the barrel (16o.pg) settles it, your rifle has the proper bore diameter for standard commercial ammunition. You can shoot standard commercial 8X57 ammunition in your rifle.

Now the rest of you can go back to arguing about what the rifle is.

TRguy
January 26, 2010, 12:57 PM
Welcome Amjad. I remember talking to when I called Tech support at Microsoft the other week, however, I think you were going by the name Eddie.

Might I suggest a photography class of some sorts. Kinda like starting back and working toward the close up money shot. :D

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=56363&d=1264514687

That picture is my favorite

sc928porsche
January 26, 2010, 04:41 PM
Its not difficult to "slug" a barrel. It will let you know exactly what the diameter is. Its always better to be safe.

I usually use "egg" fishing sinkers. I tap them on the ends to ensure that they are slightly larger than the bore, insert them, and tap them down the bore a little ways with a wood dowel. I then tap the slug back out and measure it with a micrometer or calipers.

amjadkarim16
January 26, 2010, 09:26 PM
This was the best what I could do with 2MP mobile camera.I even used a convex lens to get macro of the markings.I just wanted the marking and was not posting pictures for a award.Rest thanks for suggesting photo classes but I had had them in 1988 for 35mm.
regards
amjad

mapsjanhere
January 27, 2010, 08:25 AM
Compared to the fuzzy stuff we get in a lot of these threads, you're pictures were above average. There just needs to be a class on "The important features of a rifle, and how to document them". Like "always start with the whole rifle, and put a tape measure next to it for dimensions". Some of our regulars here can write a 2 page essay just from that. Then there are proof and troop marks, but for the uninitiated it's hard to know which ones are important and which ones are number salad. On German rifles for example, you have proof marks on the bottom of the barrel, but the side of the receiver, while the manufacturer is often on the top of the receiver.

Scorch
January 27, 2010, 11:45 AM
Amjad-
I want you to notice that none of the posters commenting on the quality of your photographs is a photographer himself. :rolleyes:

amjadkarim16
January 27, 2010, 11:55 AM
I had humbly written in the beginning that I could not arange a good digicam and I clicked these pictures by my Sonyericsson P990i cellphone camera.I used an emergengy light and a simple convex lens to get markings which was my main concern and I think I was able to convey my pictures and I got adequete response.Regarding my photographic experience I dont want to tell but I have complete professional set of Pentax K1000 with 20mm fish eye macro 28-135mm sigma and 300mm telephoto and I think i know a lot about photography and that also manual photography.
Anyways thanks for supporting
Kindest Regards
Amjad

amjadkarim16
January 27, 2010, 12:06 PM
I am posting one picture again.I googled around a lot and found lots of pictures of my type of rifle,but i didnt see this particular mark on top of the chamber.

Chipperman
January 27, 2010, 12:42 PM
That's a Portuguese crest on top of the receiver.
(Nice picture)

Do a Google search for "Portuguese Mauser"