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pax
December 17, 2009, 01:50 PM
What makes a safe holster, safe?

What makes a dangerous holster, dangerous?

What's the difference between a "good" holster and a "bad" one?

Discuss...

pax

Legionnaire
December 17, 2009, 02:18 PM
I'll be interested in others' responses, but I'll start. I'll assume the holster is for concealed carry, and not duty:

What makes a safe holster, safe?
- fits the gun it is made for
- holds the gun securely, with or without a thumb break, yet permits easy draw
- holds position on your belt so the gun/holster doesn't move around, so you grip the gun the same way, every time
- completely covers the trigger guard
- has a sight channel to prevent sights from snagging and slowing draw/presentation

What makes a dangerous holster, dangerous? Inverse of the above ...
- doesn't fit the gun
- gun is insecure and flops around or (worse) falls out, or is too tight (maybe thumb break is too tight), making it difficult to draw easily
- moves around on your belt so the grip changes position
- doesn't cover the trigger, creating possibilities of ND--or someone else firing the gun--while in the holster, or introduction of foreign objects that snag the gun
- sights snag on holster preventing a smooth draw/presentation

In addition to the above, a "good" holster is made from quality materials, holds it shape, is comfortable to wear, has a stiff mouth so that your gun can be reholstered with one hand.

... for starters.

patriotthad
December 17, 2009, 02:23 PM
For a holster to be safe it must:

#1 Securely hold the weapon from loss in the case of the wearer falling etc.
I personally use holsters (open top) that when held completely up-side down will not allow the weapon to fall. A proper fit will ensure this and yet retain a fast and smooth draw.

#2 Allow all controls ( safety, trigger, mag release etc) to always be in the proper (uncompromised) position.

#3 Hold the holster (itself) to the belt etc. under ALL circumstances

#4 The holster must NEVER be in a position that when the weapon is holstered the muzzle is pointed in an unsafe direction I.E. Horizontal shoulder hoster

#5 In ALL cases regardless of double action or single action, revolver or auto, the trigger guard must be covered
To accomplish these points the holster must:

#1 Be made for THAT SPECIFIC FIREARM. No "One size fits all" holsters.

#2 Have a secure method of attachment to the belt. No "flop or sway" as in the case of a holster made for a 2" belt mounted on a 1 1/4 belt

bababooey32
December 17, 2009, 02:32 PM
Patriot said: #4 The holster must NEVER be in a position that when the weapon is holstered the muzzle is pointed in an unsafe direction I.E. Horizontal shoulder hoster

This effectively disqualifies all holsters (and hard cases, soft cases, fanny packs, backpacks or any mode of carrying a firearm).

With any belt holster (IWB or OWB or Duty), using your criteria, you would be covering beople behind you on the escalator/stairs.

While carrying your gun in your car, using your criteria, you would be covering the drivers behind you or next to you at some point.

Point is, it is well accepted that a holstered/cased weapon is a safe weapon (provided all of your other criteria are met).

#18indycolts
December 17, 2009, 02:58 PM
a good holster can be a dangerous one if the user is unfamiliar/doesn't practice with it. The user makes the holster what it is, I think.

Brian Pfleuger
December 17, 2009, 03:07 PM
The holster must NEVER be in a position that when the weapon is holstered the muzzle is pointed in an unsafe direction I.E. Horizontal shoulder hoster

That's an interesting one. I never considered a holstered weapon to be "dangerous". So long as the other factors that make for a safe holster are met the direction that the gun is pointing when holstered is not really relevant. Now, if you have to sweep yourself or another "innocent" on the draw that's different but when the gun is holstered, who cares?

BlueTrain
December 17, 2009, 03:49 PM
Under the original specifications here, many of the holsters commonly used in the past and fairly popular are unsafe (Unsafe at any speed?). Some of these are even still being manufactured, referring here to the Hunter brand holsters. Some of them border on the generic.

Some police holsters in the past were produced more with economy in mind than anything else and some writers often remarked on that fact, especially if they happened to make holsters themselves. But on the whole, I also think that the average policeman as well as a typical gun owning citizen had a much more basic and plainer handgun than seems to be the case today, not to mention everything else about people.

oldman1946
December 17, 2009, 03:53 PM
I have two holster cases to speak of.

1. A leather holster being used by an on duty patrol officer "supposedly" had retention. As he was at a counter in a convenience store getting coffee, a man was able to come up behind him and pull his weapon from the holster. The man then shot the officer five times with the .357 that the officer carried. The officer survived and the man waited to be arrested outside the store. However the officer was never able to return to work in law enforcement and got a medical retirement. The holster maker was sued and the officer was awarded about $100,000. I showed the flaw in the holster and how a proper holster had a retention feature that required the gun be pushed down, then forward before the gun would leave the holster.

1. A man with CCW was carrying a right hand draw on the left side. This caused the man to have to make a cross draw to retrieve his gun. A man approached the CCW holder and bumped into him. This placed the man to having his right hand in perfect position to grab the gun from the holster. Needless to say, a scuffle ensued with the gun owner trying to retain his sidearm. The owner was shot twice in the chest. The perp got away but was later identified and arrested. Sometimes a safe holster can be worn wrong and create an unsafe condition for the wearer.

riggins_83
December 17, 2009, 04:02 PM
What makes a holster good and safe:

Fits and rides well the way you carry it, doesn't move around too much, come loose etc. If you're wearing sweatpants and a string as a belt no holster is going to stay secure.

Is molded/formed well for the gun and covers the trigger guard relatively well.

Has enough tensions if you lean forward the gun doesn't come flying out. My safariland IWB holster does fine with this, open top but the force of leather onto the frame keeps the tension good.

win-lose
December 17, 2009, 04:22 PM
A good holster will...

-- Adequately retain the firearm in the holster
-- Not allow modification of the firearm's controls
-- Adequately maintain the position of the firearm in the holster
-- Adequately maintain the position of the holster on the wearer
-- Allow the wearer adequate ability to draw the firearm
-- Allow for the intended level of concealment

peejman
December 17, 2009, 04:41 PM
Using the definition of the word, one might argue that there's no such thing as a useable "safe" holster. It's all in the degree of risk you're willing to accept. But I assume that's not the point here. In no particular order...

The holster should retain the weapon during all typical and some atypical activities for the wearer. For me, that's the usual walking, driving, bending/reaching/stretching stuff plus falling down, running, and jumping. And by "retain" I mean that none of the controls can be acutated.

It should provide an adequate level of concealment while maintaining accessibility. For me, that means it's invisible to the general public and someone with some knowledge/training might think they saw something during a fleeting moment. And I can be ready to fire in less than 2 seconds.

It should be comfortable to wear for long periods of time. Discomfort encourages the wear to fiddle with it and that doesn't go well sometimes, just ask Plaxico Burris.

It should be positioned such that the weapon is very, very rarely (never is a big word) pointed at anything important during the draw stroke. Technique is paramount here, of course. It should also be positioned such that falling on it won't put me in the hospital.

m&p45acp10+1
December 17, 2009, 05:18 PM
To me a dangerous holster is one that (A) the trigger guard is not covered, where any foreign object can enter the trigger guard causing a ND,or the weareer can draw with thier finger in the trigger guard(I have transported 3 people that shot themselves in the foot, or anke this way when I was a medic) (B) or one that the safty can be disengaged without the wearer doing so willingly. i.e. a cocked and locked SA semiauto with an ambisafty that the safty becomes disengaged by movement, catching on the cover garment, or brushing against an object. If both are present in the same holster it is a tradgedy waiting to happen.

markj
December 17, 2009, 05:25 PM
Safe is the holster my cousin uses (Ret. LEO) it "locks" the weapon in so a person that is not him may not pull it and shoot him with it. A dangerous one is a holster that allows another to pull the weapon and shoot you with it.

Don P
December 17, 2009, 06:33 PM
A safe holster is one that the user practices his/her draw from to the point that it becomes second nature to draw from. No hesitation, no second thought, just pure confidence.

smince
December 17, 2009, 08:03 PM
it "locks" the weapon in so a person that is not him may not pull it and shoot him with it.So it has some sort of computer lock or fingerprint recognition? :rolleyes:

Jim March
December 18, 2009, 12:04 AM
Folks. The holster has to be matched to the gun's features.

A single action revolver doesn't need a covered triggerguard. A double action revolver (or anything else!) damned well does. A 1911 holster ought to have a small barrier sewn in to block the safety from coming off-safe.

In my personal opinion, cross-snap straps can be a bad idea on some guns because it can get inside the triggerguard and crank a round off on re-holstering. This is especially true of DA wheelguns or any DAO auto with no manual safety, like a Glock.

If it's an open-carry holster or outside-belt at all ("police style" or otherwise), it should be at such an angle as you can rest your forearm on it and lock it down into the holster if you're moving through a people-dense area or have somebody you don't completely trust nearby. Done right it shouldn't look "threatening" to anybody, gun-knowledgeable or not. That and situational awareness are more important than "safety retention" holsters the police are migrating to as an alternative to proper training and awareness.

Legionnaire
December 18, 2009, 09:01 AM
The holster has to be matched to the gun's features.
Agreed. And your examples are good. The holster for my 1911 has a thumb break, the strap of which can only be closed if the gun is carried "cocked and locked." Only way I'd carry a 1911. Form fits function, as it were. Good addition/clarification.

Dwight55
December 18, 2009, 09:29 AM
Since I have a little home/house business of making custom CCW leather holsters, . . . I have a different perspective of the holster/gun/human trilogy.

I don't think that there is really a "dangerous" holster, . . . I mean, . . . when did you see the headlines "Couple mugged outside Walmart by dangerous holsters, one a kydex and the other a custom leather job."

I also don't think there are any "safe" holsters.

The whole thing comes down to one defining factor, . . . the guy/gal carrying the holster and gun.

Some guys put a gun in a pocket holster and from the angle it sets, . . . hopes he never has to father a child again.

Some women keep their guns in their purses, . . . thereby arming the local purse snatcher with a really nice piece.

The question of Safe/Dangerous is simply a responsibility tacked onto the wearer in my opinion.

May God bless,
Dwight

Legionnaire
December 18, 2009, 09:54 AM
The question of Safe/Dangerous is simply a responsibility tacked onto the wearer in my opinion.
Dwight, I'll agree that individual responsibility is part of the equation, but you're not arguing that that's all there is to it, are you? Your own example of the pocket holster suggests that you recognize that there are good and bad designs for pocket holsters, and that one is "better" or "safer" than another. I'll not argue the point that a numbnut can be unsafe even with a "good" holster, but as a holster maker yourself, you must consider design features that contribute to safety rather than the opposite; right?

ActivShootr
December 18, 2009, 10:20 AM
What does everyone think of the Blackhawk SERPA holsters and others with the release button over the trigger? Some people claim they are not safe because the finger could get onto the trigger and possibly fire when drawn at high speed.

smince
December 18, 2009, 10:44 AM
Suarez International doesn't allow Serpa's in class. I've read Tactical Response and Paul Gomez doesn't either.

markj
December 18, 2009, 04:46 PM
So it has some sort of computer lock or fingerprint recognition?

No, it has to be drawn in a certain way hard to explain. He showed me that I couldnt draw it facing him or reaching around him it just wouldnt clear the hard plastic holster. Check around and see for yourself what is out there in this type of holster.

tipoc
December 18, 2009, 04:46 PM
A few other considerations:

A holster should be chosen based on what it's task will be. These determine whether the rig is useful to the wearer or not. Safety is a useful feature that varies on the task. A good rig for IPSC competition will likely not be useful for toting a sidearm while hunting and vice versa.

Because the needs of the military, law enforcement, civilian concealed carry, various competitive shooting and sport shooting rigs, handgun carry while hunting, hiking, camping etc. are all different, what is a good/bad rig varies. To some extant what is dangerous in a rig varies some as well.

So fitting the rig to it's task is a key component of what makes a holster or mode of carry dangerous or not.

tipoc

Hard Ball
December 18, 2009, 06:14 PM
"- completely covers the trigger guard"

Nonsense! There are many excellent widely used holsters which do not
completely covers the trigger guard

Edward429451
December 18, 2009, 06:57 PM
A 1911 holster ought to have a small barrier sewn in to block the safety from coming off-safe.

Is there something matching this description on the market? I've found my 1911 safety off safe twice in ~25 years of cc.

I have a friction fit open top 1911 crossdraw holster also and I think it's as safe as can be even though I can imagine how dangerous it looks at the range.

smince
December 18, 2009, 08:15 PM
No, it has to be drawn in a certain way hard to explain. He showed me that I couldnt draw it facing him or reaching around him it just wouldnt clear the hard plastic holster.I'll bet anyone who knows the 'secret' can get it out.

Nnobby45
December 18, 2009, 08:38 PM
Now, if you have to sweep yourself or another "innocent" on the draw that's different but when the gun is holstered, who cares?


Probably all persons on the firing line to your left when you holster (or draw) a X- draw or shoulder holster. Of course, once holstered, everyone is safe----- until you draw or reholster again.

That's why shoulder holsters or X- draws go to the end of the firing line--- if they're allowed in the course in the first place.

Yes, I know, with the X-draw, it's possible to turn one's body to the side so the muzzle doesn't point at another shooter during the draw, but the shoulder holster could be rather problematic.:cool:

Also, Farnum banned the Serpa from his courses when it was learned that a small twig, or sand, could (actually did) jam the release and make drawing the weapon nearly impossible.

KenpoTex
December 18, 2009, 10:25 PM
Suarez International doesn't allow Serpa's in class. I've read Tactical Response and Paul Gomez doesn't either.
Not sure about Paul (wouldn't surprise me if he didn't), but I know Tactical Response doesn't allow them.

Also, Farnum banned the Serpa from his courses when it was learned that a small twig, or sand, could (actually did) jam the release and make drawing the weapon nearly impossible.

Shoot, I've seen a brand new one malfunction in that manner. I was in a gun store and picked one up to look at it (I knew about their "history" but hadn't actually handled one before). The guy behind the counter asked me if I wanted to see how it worked (sure, why not). He handed me one of the glocks from the display case. When I pushed the button to release the lock, I heard a "snap" and the gun wouldn't come out...something had broken on the inside causing it to lock the gun into the holster.

smince
December 19, 2009, 06:05 AM
I've seen our local Game Wardens/Forest Service carrying Serpa's. I tried to explain to them about the problems with the holsters, but was only met with blank, deer-in-the-headlights stares.

ActivShootr
December 19, 2009, 08:28 AM
Heres one for the kydex paddle holster lovers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDeKtgkZKmQ&feature=PlayList&p=E85EDF34BEDB192A&index=24

Tamara
December 19, 2009, 09:12 AM
I do not like SERPA holsters. I would not carry a SERPA holster. I do not recommend carrying a SERPA holster.

All that being said...
Shoot, I've seen a brand new one malfunction in that manner. I was in a gun store and picked one up to look at it (I knew about their "history" but hadn't actually handled one before). The guy behind the counter asked me if I wanted to see how it worked (sure, why not). He handed me one of the glocks from the display case. When I pushed the button to release the lock, I heard a "snap" and the gun wouldn't come out...something had broken on the inside causing it to lock the gun into the holster.

Your story has some elements that don't ring true. Anybody who's actually handled a SERPA holster knows that it's not a "button" but a pivoting lever and there's nothing on the "inside" to "break"; it's just a piece of plastic that rocks back and forth, with one end protruding inside to occlude the trigger guard.

You'd have been perfectly fine saying "Hey, I don't dig them because Suarez and Gomez and Yeager say they are teh suXX0rz," without further elaboration.

Heres one for the kydex paddle holster lovers.

What does Fobus have to do with Kydex paddle holsters? A couple of fat guys on the internet broke a Fobus holster (which is not a Kydex holster) and then they tell me I shouldn't use a Kydex holster. You'll pardon me for not taking my handgun advice from random fat guys on YouTube.

smince
December 19, 2009, 09:26 AM
This came from a posting by Paul Gomez on Gabe Suarez' site:
In October 2005, while assisting with a class in Casa Grande, AZ, additional concerns surfaced. During a force-on-force evolution, when a student attempted to draw an NLTA-modified Glock 17 from his Blackhawk Serpa holster, he was unable to free the gun from the holster.

In fact, the gun was so tightly held in the holster that, with one person applying both hands to the release button and another person applying two hands to the pistol, the gun could not be freed. Upon inspection, a small piece of gravel, approximately the size of the head of a pin, had managed to work itself into the Serpa release button and wedge the lock in place.

While trying to effect a release of the pistol from the holster, the entire holster popped off of the belt. The three screws that attach the holster body to the belt plate simply slipped through the tracks in the belt plate without apparent damage. Of what use is a retention holster that does not keep the gun on the belt?

In my opinion, the Blackhawk Serpa Active Retention holster is a severely flawed design. It offers the theoretical advantage of security while, in reality, offering none. It does not hold up to the rigors of realistic training. It accentuates the possibility of an unintentional discharge. It is unsafe.

Tamara
December 19, 2009, 09:31 AM
While the trigger finger being in exactly the wrong place on the draw is its biggest shortcoming, I don't like the fact that the area behind the release lever is open and can allow debris in there to obstruct easy movement of the lever.

KenpoTex
December 19, 2009, 09:38 AM
Your story has some elements that don't ring true. Anybody who's actually handled a SERPA holster knows that it's not a "button" but a pivoting lever and there's nothing on the "inside" to "break"; it's just a piece of plastic that rocks back and forth, with one end protruding inside to occlude the trigger guard.

You'd have been perfectly fine saying "Hey, I don't dig them because Suarez and Gomez and Yeager say they are teh suXX0rz," without further elaboration.

Button, lever, "surface where you apply pressure to (theoretically) get the gun out," whatever...I know that whatever the case was, the gun wasn't coming out of the holster.

Microgunner
December 19, 2009, 09:56 AM
A good holster is whatever gets the job done. A bad holster slows presentation, since the object of the entire excercise is survival.

Legionnaire
December 19, 2009, 11:52 AM
Pax, you kicked this off; going to weigh in?

pax
December 19, 2009, 01:46 PM
Legionnaire,

I'm shamelessly using everyone else's brains to check my own thinking on this one. If I weighed in, I'd contaminate the comparison sample... :D

pax

Legionnaire
December 19, 2009, 03:13 PM
Understood, but I hope when the signal-to-noise ratio drops sufficiently, you'll provide your own opinion and/or summary comments.

Uncle Buck
December 19, 2009, 03:39 PM
When I was a kid we worked for a guy that did trail rides for city folks. Sometimes he would even let them bring their firearms along for the rides. One guy was riding and somehow his gun went off (Hit the horse and threw the rider.) accidentally while it was still in the holster. I do not remember the rig he was wearing or the gun he was carrying other than it was an old revolver. Apparently, when he went through the brush, he caught the hammer on some brush and cocked it, then while going through another bunch of saplings and brush, some how managed to have the trigger pulled. (He swore up and down that he neither carried the weapon cocked, nor did he touch the trigger.) If what he said was true, then he had a very unsafe holster.

1. A holster should be fitted to the gun it carries.
2. It should be fitted to the person carrying it.
3. It should be fit for the job you are doing. (When I am tossing hay bales, I want a holster with a flap, that will keep debris out of the holster and gun.)
4. It should fit the clothes you are wearing. Do not try to modify the holster you use for your belt when you are wearing sweat pants. Just use the dang belt or get another holster.

My .45 LC revolver holsters (Cowboy type) all have a hammer string on them to keep the gun in place. Can I quick draw with the string in place? No, but by golly when I am crawling through fences and brush looking for escaped goats and cows, I do not have to worry about it falling out.

When I am at the range, I use a simple slide in holster. It will be used only for storing and carrying the gun between shoots.

I do not CCW, so I am unqualified to respond on that aspect of it.

Brian Pfleuger
December 19, 2009, 05:16 PM
Apparently, when he went through the brush, he caught the hammer on some brush and cocked it, then while going through another bunch of saplings and brush, some how managed to have the trigger pulled. (He swore up and down that he neither carried the weapon cocked, nor did he touch the trigger.) If what he said was true, then he had a very unsafe holster.

It would seem more likely that it was a single event, IMO. A branch/vine/twig snagged the hammer and drew it back far enough to ignite the primer on dropping but not far enough to stay cocked. A very unsafe holster, either way.

tipoc
December 19, 2009, 05:24 PM
+1 on Uncle Buck.

tipoc

ActivShootr
December 19, 2009, 05:52 PM
You'll pardon me for not taking my handgun advice from random fat guys on YouTube.

What makes them any different from the fat guys on here?


Edited to be nice

kazanski612
December 19, 2009, 06:02 PM
I used to buy the hype, but not so much anymore... but I used to hear that a small-of-the-back holster could paralyze you if you landed on it. If that were true, I'd consider that dangerous.

Jim March
December 19, 2009, 06:09 PM
Since I carry an SA myself I've considered the whole "hammer hang-up" issue. I've been carrying high-ride crossdraw in part for that reason.

I also find that crossdraw points the gun at less of my body. If it does go off in the holster or during a re-holstering accident, it's not going to take out my kneecap or foot. It might give me a glancing hit across some hip skin at worst.

Best of all, that same "rest my forearm on the gun" trick used to block grabs can also be used in heavy brush to protect the hammer and trigger.

Tamara
December 19, 2009, 06:32 PM
What makes them any different from the fat guys on here?

Nothing.

Any advice snagged off the internet or at the gun store or at gun skul should be filtered through your own experience. Caveat emptor, baby. :D

PH/CIB
December 19, 2009, 08:00 PM
I carried concealed with a Thunderwear/Smartcarry holster quite a bit with a Walther PPK, butt end of handle printed even with that little gun, wore elastic waistband pants with no belt for a faster draw, had to tuck in my shirttail over the back of the elastic strap going behind my back otherwise it would ride up and show, did not like where the gun was pointing while being carried and was very careful about reholstering, one reason for the PPK with its 10-12 pound double action first pull of the trigger.

I have front pocket carried concealed with or without a holster with a Kahr PM40 or a Smith 638 bodyguard, I recommend a pocket holster but either way make sure absolutely nothing is in the pocket with the gun that could engage the trigger, like car keys, knives etc.

I have carried concealed in a fanny pack, and seen women carrying in purses, you should buy a special fanny pack or purse for this but whether you do or not, as in front pocket carry, absolutely nothing in the compartment that carries the gun, as it could engage the trigger and fire the gun.

Have carried with shoulder holsters, vertical and horizontal, I don't like it as the pistol almost always sweeps part of your arm on the draw.

I would recommend OWB, outside the waistband or IWB inside the waistband on the belt strongside with the pistol pointing down at the ground. However this is probably where most people carry and if I was going to try to take a gun from someone that is the first place I would look for a concealed handgun.

I have never tried the shirt tucker holsters, but I have heard of guys pulling out the shirt and fumbling or dropping their handgun.

For open carry I definitely prefer a retention system, for concealed carry I absolutely hate a retention system.

One rule I always break is on reholstering, I am never going to reholster until I know for sure the threat is over and then I am going to look while reholstering to make sure no clothing or retention thumb strap or anything is going to engage the trigger while reholstering.

I have seen very few dangerous holsters, wish I could say the same for people!

Tamara
December 19, 2009, 09:55 PM
For open carry I definitely prefer a retention system, for concealed carry I absolutely hate a retention system.

This.

Further, I just don't dig any kind of holster that makes me violate Rule Two to get the gun back into the holster. If I can't re-holster one-handed without pointing the gun at my weak hand, I don't want to use that carry system.

Erik
December 20, 2009, 12:10 PM
Plenty of holsters capable of retention involve no action on the part of the support hand to accomplish reholstering. Come to think of it, I can't think of one that does require it. Granted, I've see people do it, which I've always took as an indicator of either unfamiliarity or as sign that their holster is in dire need of replacement. The other indicator being fishing around to clear retention straps; I've seen instances were an unintentional discharge at that point would have had disastrous consequences.

Tamara
December 20, 2009, 10:31 PM
Plenty of holsters capable of retention involve no action on the part of the support hand to accomplish reholstering.

Yes.

I'm sorry I didn't make it clearer. I thought my paragraph break between "This." and "Further,..." would make it clear that those were two separate trains of thought. Sorry. :o

FM12
December 22, 2009, 11:08 PM
a dangerous holster is any you cannot operate quickly ans smoothly,such as those with mutiple retention devices. practice with a new holster until fully familarand you'll be better off for it!

Like my daddy used to say, you need to be smarter than the equipment you operate!!

smince
December 23, 2009, 07:15 AM
I carry a Glock 19 or 26 Appendix Inside-The-Waistband (Dale Fricke-designed Ehud holster).

Many people think my holster and carry method is dangerous.

tipoc
December 23, 2009, 04:19 PM
One way of looking at it could be: 1.)what makes a holster or carry method unsafe is it's inability to reliably do the job it is intended to do by the carrier, or 2.) the method of carry, or holster, being pressed into service for a job it is not designed for. And of course, 3.) Unfamiliarity of the rig by the shooter.

An example of 1 might be; deciding that speed of draw from a CCW rig is a primary desire of the shooter but choosing a rig that is primarily designed for high weapon retention. The button, strap, whatever now become "dangerous".

2; You load your gear into the vehicle when you remember the Glock is on the table and you want to also take it to the range. You shove it in your waistband and walk to the car and load it with your gear. Fine nothing wrong. You want to go to the night club and go out dancing and drinking so you do like Plaxico. When you force a temporary and unsecure method of carry into a job it is not designed for it becomes dangerous. Similarly if you take an IDPA speed shooting rig to carry your piece for a week long tramp through the woods, sliding down hills, crossing streams, etc, don't expect it to keep your sidearm protected and secure. It can also be that the shooter believes that speed of draw in their situation is more important than security and choose a rig with this in mind but in reality the reverse is true, for police officers normally, weapon retention takes precedence over speed of draw.

3. should be obvious.

tipoc

Glenn Dee
December 24, 2009, 07:13 AM
IMO... Safety, like everything else happens in degree's. And so it is with holsters too. Some holsters are more safe than others, some more secure than others, some better fitted than others. Ultimately the the level of safety more depends on the user,than the product. It seems that lately we as a society have been trying to idiot proof everything. I blame frivolous law suits for this trend.

But keeping on subject I've seen only one holster that I consider truely unsafe. Of course it's one of my favorites. It's a open carry uniform duty holster used by several police departments, and countless security companies in the 50's 60's, into the 70's. I'm sure some old timers remember them. As I said it's a open carry uniform duty holster for a revolver. It has an internal lock. A spring loaded metal lever pops behind the front of the trigger guard locking the gun in the holster. In order to draw, the user must put his trigger finger in the trigger guard, and put pressure on the latch ( and the trigger) to draw. Many a man has shot himself in the foot drawing his weapon.

If you want some hair raising dangerous, and unique carry methods... Talk to some undercover officers/agents.

ChileVerde1
December 27, 2009, 05:34 PM
USBP just recently (last year) authorized the SERPA for duty carry. It's a nice rig and a lot better than those safarilands we had been issued. The Safariland had springs that would break and the thumbbreak would always open up when you least expected. Forget taking them on ATV's too.

I've seen thousands of presentations out of the SERPA with absolutely zero problems and the BP is very tough on their gear. We shoot quarterly and expose our stuff to the worst elements, sand, dust, etc... So far, they're doing pretty well! Being susupicious of new gadgetry oer gimmicks, I still carry a level two Bianchi Accumold but will shortly transition to the SERPA with no reservations.

smince
December 27, 2009, 05:51 PM
Another posting on the SERPA from the WarriorTalk site:
Simply put...the Serpa is a poorly designed but brilliantly marketed holster that causes a user to press in with the finger tip as they draw their pistol. In many cases it ends up with the trigger finger right on the trigger (and pressing inward) prematurely. In other words...long before it would be safe to do so.

I am aware of five situations where this has caused an AD on the range. Twice where it led so a self-inflicted gunshot. And these guys were either highly experienced shooters of seasoned operators. Twice I have personally seen in it force on force.

If I allow a holster like that in class, having seen the problems and knowing the problems, and a student shoots themselves...it really would be my fault. As I understand it Yeager at Tactical Response disallows them too.Incidentally, we had one student....a gun school junkie by anyone's definition. He had a Serpa at a Weapon Retention/Disarm class I was at. I told him the holster offered a false sense of security and I could rip it right off his belt. He said he didn't think I could, but asked me to try since he wanted to know. A couple of seconds later I handed him his pistol with the Serpa still wrapped around it, but no longer attached to his belt.

BillCA
December 27, 2009, 07:10 PM
A safe holster means different things with different guns and in different situations.

I'd acutally prefer the term "Excellent vs. Poor" here. I think we can say a holster that is poor is probably also unsafe. Some excellent holsters may be deemed "unsafe" by violating just one provision. For instance, most shoulder holsters require a two-hand reholstering process. But that is the nature of the beast.

Excellent holsters:
Secure the firearm to the wearer's body. This is the primary reason for a holster. To have it available when needed on your person.
Have a strong attachment point to the body. Many police holsters with a drop-shank use steel and three screws covered in leather. Belt slots should be thick and well stitched. Someone grabbing the entire holster with both hand cannot easily separate you from the holster.
Secure the firearm from accidental loss. This includes bending, jumping, running, up/down stairs, over fences an falling down. This implies some kind of retention device that when used properly does not allow the gun to work loose.
Keeps its position on the body with zero or a minimum of movement. This allows you to use the same reach & grab motion every time.
Protects the firearm from the elements. This is where "belt-slide" holsters usually fail since most of the gun is exposed. Exposure to windblown dust & debris, leaves, twigs, tree sap (ugh) and other items can cause malfunctions.
Allows minimum delay on the draw. There is a fine balace between retention ability and ease of draw. Holsters requiring more than two steps to release the firearm may be dangerous for some applications and suitable for others.
Allows one-handed reholstering.
Does not cause movement of the controls or safety. In normal use, the holster can't accidentally deactivate the safety or release the magazine.
Closely fits the firearm carried. Fits the firearm well enough that it does not easily "slide out" of the holster without the retention device in place. This typically means some form fitting or a "snug" fit to the gun.
Has a covered triggerguard for non-SA revolvers. This is to prevent an AD should something contact the trigger during body movement.


Jim March rightfully pointed out that SA revolvers do not require a covered trigger guard. Likewise, you'll find that most SA "Cowboy" holsters are not tightly fitted to the gun. Retention is via a leather loop over the hammer, intended to be released before the hollerin' starts and replaced once the smoke clears.

For CCW, the user can make the decision if s/he favors speed of deployment over retention. Of open-top retention holsters I've seen (using one or more retention screws), about 98% will fail the "working loose" test if you run down two floors of stairs. So will some "Snap-lock" plastic or Kydex holsters.

Important note: Almost every design is a compromise of some kind. No holster relieves you of the responsibility of ensuring your gun is securely retained.

Poor Holsters:
Has a weak or flimsy attachment system to the body.
Is constructed out of thin or flimsy materials. (e.g. 100% nylon)
Lack a retention method.
Does not fit the gun and allows it to move around even when secured.
Do not cover the trigger guards of non-SA wheelguns.
Needs both hands to reholster the gun.
Forces the user to "wiggle" the gun in during reholstering, thus pointing the muzzle at their own body.
Forces the wearer to sweep portions of his body with the drawn gun.
Requires a second hand to draw the gun (some shoulder rigs)
Forces the wearer to put their finger on the trigger to draw the gun (e.g. Clam shell types that Glenn Dee says he likes.)
Cannot support the weight of the gun without "leaning out" from the body. This stresses the attach point as well as exposing the gun to a grab.
Requires more than 2 separate operations before drawing the gun (e.g. rotate hood, release strap, push down, draw) unless optimum retention is really needed.
Requires any part of the holster to enter the triggerguard (e.g. retention straps, moving clips or locks, etc.)


Holsters can have additional features that don't directly affect their safety. Sight tracks, drainage holes, reinforced stitching, sweat guards and the like.

Small of the Back (SOB) holsters. Your spine is not designed to make contact with hard objects under sudden force impulses. That applies whether it's the ground, a thrown ballpeen hammer or your body weight slamming your spine against your favorite Sig.

Steviewonder1
December 27, 2009, 10:19 PM
The Youtube Video of the guy yanking the Kydex Fobus Holster off of the other guy standing there shows issues with poorly designed holsters (two rivets holding the holster to the belt connection). Some folks will not let Fobus holsters go to class (Tactical Response for one). I use a snap over the cocked and loaded 1911 (clamp between hammer and slide) with a clamp over the belt style unit (quick release). Gun is secure and requires the thumb snap to be released before drawing. A few hundred practices will insure good muscle memory with this style holster. My other goodie is for my G19 as a close to the body full leather canted forward style holster with adjustable retention with a screw adjustment. This also takes some time to practice with the holster and gun to get things right. I got rid of my Serpa holster 3 years ago after hearing and seeing the issues it has. There is no subsitute for good training and practice with your holster of choice for CCW with your UNLOADED gun.

Archie
December 27, 2009, 10:35 PM
Major General Julian S. Hatcher was an ordnance man in the U. S. Army nearly one hundred years ago. He wrote books that are the basis for all modern handgun and rifle shooting. In one of his books - "Hatcher's Notebooks" on handguns he noted a holster was of no use to a combatant unless one could get a firing grip on the pistol complete with finger on trigger.

That was the accepted norm, ladies and gentlemen; that was the latest and cutting edge technique just after the First World War. Oddly, there are no reports of mass butt or foot shootings. Perhaps the troops paid attention?

Up until somewhere in the 1980s, lawmen carried mostly double action revolvers in open top holsters with manual safety straps. I carried one as Border 'Troll for six years ending in 1983. Well, by the time I got out I had a G. Wm. Davis holster with a thumb break top strap. The only reason the top strap was there was HQ demanded it.

There was more than one holster with a trigger finger release. The clam shell was one such and was particularly prized by motorcycle officers of the California Highway Patrol. (They tended to keep the gun if one fell off a bike. In those days, if you fell off and could remount, you did. Sissy.) The other finger release holster was the Jaypee and had a spring loaded lever that hooked the inside of the trigger guard. One depressed the lever to withdraw the revolver. Those holsters were either issued or required by many departments in the East and allowed in many departments in the West.

My first girl friend's dad was a County Mountie (Multnomah County - Portland, Oregon) and carried a Super .38 Government Model in such a holster. I asked him about the safety of such an arrangement. He have me a puzzled look and said he never had a problem with it. He didn't seem to think anyone else did, either. He never mentioned it.

I've got both types of holsters in my collection. They look 'old'. They are well made, well stitched and all the parts fit together. They've set in boxes for years and they still work. (The clam shell needs re-covered; the leather is pretty beat up.)

About the same time law enforcement starting changing to autopistols, the 'combat shooting' sport took off. This spawned the modern 'speed holster'. The speed holster changed literally everything.

The early speed holsters were fast, all right. They couldn't be used for much anything else - movie props, I suppose. However, the early speed holsters generated 'premature discharges', 'holster shots', 'accidental discharges' and a host of other euphemisms for "Oh Dang!! What was that?"

Ranges have to have liability insurance for a number of reasons. Shooters not concentrating and ambulance chasers are two such reasons. So the range management started 'safety' campaigns. After all, this is just a game, right? No point getting injured, injuring someone else and/or losing the range.

So - among other things - holsters had to be 'idiot-proofed'. At least to the point of keeping the shooter from putting a shot through the bottom or front of the holster. Covered trigger guards. Restriction on type of holster.

Anyone aware the whole 'shoulder holsters' are dangerous dogma comes from range officers? Public or law enforcement, the range people are terrified of the potential dangers. The actual dangers may or may not exist, but in the bean counter mentality, it doesn't matter.

About the same time the nylon holsters started up. Some are worse than others, but they all look like security guard issue. The bad ones look and function like landfill security guard issue. (No offense to any security people out there; most companies just don't spend a lot on equipment.)

Law enforcement agencies aren't much better. They all set standards (usually looking over each other's shoulders) and then contract low-bidder for whatever they want. Training time is minimal to achieve whatever minimal standard is acceptable. Since we (the U. S.) now are a shockingly gun free society, recruits know next to nothing about guns. There are some who have played video games. Heaven help us!

So agencies have an unspoken distrust of employees with firearms, but they have to issue them. So they pick the (cheapest) safest guns they can find and the (cheapest) safest holsters available.

One episode we had 'Level Three Security' holsters. One breaks the strap retainer, then slightly pushes down and twists outboard, recites the 'opening ceremony' from Ali Baba and the Forty Thieves and then withdraws the pistol in a graceful arc forward while keeping the off side knee aligned with the Pole Star. They forgot about the padlock, happily.

So what is required for a proper holster?

It has to have a positive mounting system. That is, it has to stay on the belt and securely in place. This can be over done. The belt loop doesn't need to double as a repelling mount.

It has to fit the firearm. Holster movement takes off more finish than all other causes combined. Plus, the more firmly the gun is held, the less likelihood of the gun falling or bouncing out.

It has to fit the wearer. We are not all built the same. I'm short and round. What fits and is convenient for me may not work for a bean pole build. Also consider other factors. One friend of mine has arthritis in his strong side shoulder and a strong side holster just does not work for him. Another young lady friend cannot use a shoulder holster; she's too - uh - blessed.

Finally: A holster of any sort should look professional and attractive. A good looking, carved or decorated holster just doesn't look as trashy or threatening as something beat up.

Concealed holsters don't need a retaining strap - unless you're a law enforcement administrator or work for one. A proper fitting holster has all the retention required. In forty years of carrying hidden guns, I've never fallen down a flight of stairs or out of a tree or dumped a motorcycle and lost my gun. Your mileage may vary.

Open belt holsters don't need a retaining strap either; but the general public will look at you with some disbelief in their eyes. Cops will be the worst; if they have to have a retaining strap, it's a LAW of NATURE!

If you're carrying in the field, camping, hunting or such, a strap isn't such a bad idea. This is more physical than simply walking around in town.

Someone mentioned protection from the elements. For a concealed holster, not a problem. Your concealment garment should shield your gun from rain, snow and dust. For an open carry rig, this is more of an issue. I like open bottomed holsters with enough extra length to keep the muzzle from touching extraneous objects. For extreme conditions, a full flap holster works well. Unless one gets in the water. Such a holster needs to be emptied. (Anticipating this, one may drill a few 1/16 inch holes in the bottom panel for drainage.)

After all the holsters I have bought, borrowed, made, found and such; I prefer a strong side hip mount, usually just aft of the point of the hip. It seems to be the simplest to use.

Locking devices. I distrust locking devices. My latest issue holster has a rotating strap thingie - I believe the marketing people call it the 'SLS' Self-Locking System. It isn't bad, but I find it redundant. And something else to go wrong.

Leather or plastic?
I don't want plastic shoes or a plastic saddle, either. Leather, with minimal care, lasts forever. Plastic gets hard, brittle, cracks and generally gets nasty looking. Your pick.

pax
December 27, 2009, 10:43 PM
That was the accepted norm, ladies and gentlemen; that was the latest and cutting edge technique just after the First World War. Oddly, there are no reports of mass butt or foot shootings.

Actually: http://www.nraila.org/issues/FactSheets/Read.aspx?ID=120

The modern emphasis on safe equipment and safe behavior has made a difference.

pax

Archie
December 27, 2009, 10:59 PM
You're comparing accidents in the population at large between then and now. I was talking about military and police training.

There are problems with reporting as well. I get unofficial reports from other agencies that don't seem to be 'aired' to the general public. The primary difference between covered trigger guards and uncovered trigger guards is the uncovered get shot wrongly on the draw, and the covered get shot wrongly on the re-holster.

I see this nonsense all the time. Law enforcement is so politically correct - including training - I can't wait to retire.

BillCA
December 29, 2009, 04:09 AM
Archie,

A fair summation, though I think we could quibble about some points.

As your post reads, covered trigger guards were the result of rangemasters and lawyers concerns over safety. As I recall, it was the early to mid-70's when covered trigger guards in holsters began showing up. They first showed up on PD Duty holsters. Bianchi's Breakfront holster was one of the first designs to incorporate both a covered triggerguard with a "passive" retention feature. Other manufacturers began covering their trigger guards in the early 70's in their newer holsters.
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff111/BillCA/Hobby/misc/Bianchi27a.jpg
Bianchi Breakfront Holster (LH)

The reasoning was simple. Experiences during the "wacky years" between 1966-69, when police were called to break up anti-war and civil rights protests. During many of these incidents some people grabbed at their handguns. This usually resulted in the person getting seriously struck with fists and baton. But the trend was increasingly getting out of hand, even during street patrols. Several NYPD officers had their guns snatched.

Up until that time, many holsters included an exposed trigger guard to allow the wearer to get a "full grip" on the gun. Most of the "Border Patrol" style holsters of that era included an over-the-top safety strap. As an example, this Safariland "Quarter Flap" holster substituted a partial flap to protect the firearm
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff111/BillCA/Hobby/nf/M57/M57s_holster.jpg
Safariland Model 58B Quarter-Flap Holster
Note exposed trigger

and was popular with some rangers and rural Sheriffs. The addition of the "sight track" in holsters of this era helped reduce gun-grabs by binding up if you attempted to pull the gun out from the side or rear.

Police training thru those years was usually sufficient to prevent AD's during the draw or re-holstering process. There was a fairly low incidence of holster-related AD's - so few that when it did occur, besides an official chewing out, the officer was often given a plaque commemorating the event (i.e. Royal Order of the Bottomless Holster or some such) by his peers. :p

Many shoulder holsters require a two-hand reholster, except those which are merely a vertical loose-fit holster. The use of metal springs, elastic and safety straps means they violate the "one-hand" reholstering rule. And by their nature, drawing them means sweeping your arm or other persons with the muzzle as you deploy it. Again it comes down to triggerfinger discipline. And what can you say about the old favorite - the Berns-Martin design like this?
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff111/BillCA/Hobby/misc/BernsMartin_Sherrick_sm.jpg
Rusty Sherrick Berns-Martin rig

I can also quibble with your statement regarding CCW holsters and a retention strap.
Concealed holsters don't need a retaining strap - unless you're a law enforcement administrator or work for one. A proper fitting holster has all the retention required.
Falling down stairs isn't the issue. But trying to run down two or more flights without a very secure holster means if you're not holding your gun in place, you may have to pick up your weapon after it's bounced a dozen times or so. And while the counter-argument is "a proper retention fit", to get that kind of retention means the holster holds on so tight I end up giving myself a wedgie on the draw.

A strap is also a great peace of mind in crowds; when a conversation becomes a shoving or wrestling match; and certainly if you have young kids around or get in and out of your vehicle frequently.

r.w. schrack
January 5, 2010, 04:42 PM
I prefer MOB with Galco Royal, alot of people say this is a good way to injure your back. I agree if you fall out of a tree, otherwise its very comfortable even operating a vehicle.

raimius
January 5, 2010, 08:50 PM
My range/competition holster is a kydex, open top, paddle holster. It works great, but I would hesitate to go through dense brush or crowds with it (friction retention only).

I have done airsoft competitions with a cheap, nylon, retention straped, leg-rig. I would NEVER put my real 1911 in that! I managed to dump the airsoft pistol twice...one time it got ripped out of the holster whilst climing through a window, and the other time it "disappeared" in the woods (I only found out when I tried to draw but only found a retention strap flapping in the wind). Shortly thereafter, I put a lanyard on the pistol and connected it to my belt!

For open carry, I would require some retention, personally. For concealed, friction would seem appropriate. I definitely agree that the holster MUST fit the pistol well (as my airsoft experience informed me).


Shouldn't your finger wind up along the frame of a SERPA holster? The release is supposed to be just above the trigger guard, isn't it? That's what Blackhawk advertises.
Perhaps this is a training issue...

KenpoTex
January 6, 2010, 01:52 AM
I prefer MOB with Galco Royal, alot of people say this is a good way to injure your back. I agree if you fall out of a tree, otherwise its very comfortable even operating a vehicle.

Have you ever fallen on the thing...If you ever do I think you'll find out quickly how uncomfortable it is. I bruised the hell out of my hip once from falling on my IWB holster (worn just behind the hip-point) and I didn't have to fall out of a tree to do it.

There's also the fact that trying to access a gun from a MOB holster is going to be very difficult (if not almost impossible) if you ever find yourself rolling on the ground with someone or in the midst of a hand-to-hand fight.

smince
January 6, 2010, 06:54 AM
...trying to access a gun from a MOB holster is going to be very difficult (if not almost impossible) if you ever find yourself rolling on the ground with someone or in the midst of a hand-to-hand fight.But conditon yellow will keep something like that from ever happening to me, doncha know...

(or so many think:rolleyes:)

smince
January 6, 2010, 06:56 AM
Perhaps this is a training issue... Maybe, maybe not:
I am aware of five situations where this has caused an AD on the range. Twice where it led so a self-inflicted gunshot. And these guys were either highly experienced shooters or seasoned operators.

raimius
January 7, 2010, 11:00 PM
Were they experienced with that equipment?

I am not calling people incompetant. Switching equipment can really mess with people, even ones who are HIGHLY proficient with their standard setup. If they had trained to keep their finger on the front of the trigger guard, switching to a SERPA could EASILY lead to a ND on the draw. If they were using it as designed, their finger should not have wound up on the trigger. Granted, the margin of error is too slim for many peoples' preference, but I don't think the basic design is faulty in that respect...in my opinion.

Uncle Buck
January 8, 2010, 08:09 AM
I was just thinking of the time my revolver got torn out of its holster:

I was working town patrol (TP) in Korea. I was not supposed to work TP that evening and left my leather gear at home. A schedule change put me on TP, wearing the Air Force issued .38, in a belt and holster the armorer found for me. We were in the market place that evening, checking to make sure there were no GI's in the area after dark.

We saw a couple of GI's were they did not belong and as we approached they took off. We went after them and as I took a corner, my holster snagged a table in the market place. The thread on the holster ripped and the weapon fell out. My partner yelled "I've got it." so I kept on running after my guy.

I led my guy in handcuffs back to the gate and asked my partner where my pistol was. He had a blank look on his face and said he did not know. After repeating what he said to him ("I've got it.") he said he was referring to the bag one of the guys had thrown. I had not seen the bag thrown, so assumed he meant my pistol.

We went back and searched the area twice and could not find the pistol. Long story short, it was turned in to the gate about four minutes after we returned the second time.

The thread on the holster had rotted. My Lt. looked at it and pulled on the strap and it came off in his hand.

It was a safe holster when it was made, but over the years it had deteriorated and made the rig unsafe. So condition of the holster also has a lot to do with whether it is safe or not.

jborushko
January 8, 2010, 11:33 PM
<^> oh my! thats no good!! alot of trouble?

Uncle Buck
January 9, 2010, 08:25 PM
No, but believe me, everyone of us learned to try to tear those leather holsters apart at the seams.

BillCA
January 10, 2010, 02:49 AM
I'm shamelessly using everyone else's brains to check my own thinking on this one. If I weighed in, I'd contaminate the comparison sample...

Okay, Pax, it's been three weeks. Enough of a sample to confirm or refute your opinion?

Inquiring minds...

pax
January 10, 2010, 10:47 AM
Bill,

Yup.

Here's my synthesis: it's easy to get hung up on specific features, but a better way to analyze good holster vs bad holster is to look at what holsters are designed to do and then ask whether (and how well) a specific holster or carry method accomplishes those goals.

A safe holster performs several crucial functions, while an unsafe holster either fails to perform one of these functions or does so in a way that encourages the user to violate safe gunhandling procedures.

So what's a holster supposed to do? Why do we use them? Here's my take: we use holsters for three basic reasons --


To safely secure firearm
To keep the firearm comfortably concealed
To keep the firearm immediately accessible


1) Safely secure.

A firearm lying on a table, untouched by human hands, is a safe and inert device. It's not going to "go off" by itself -- that takes deliberate human intervention. The ideally safe holster or carry method holds the gun securely in this same inert state until a human deliberately changes the gun's status.

This means that once the firearm is placed within the holster or carry system, there should be no way for the firearm to unexpectedly discharge—whether by the user's wayward finger or by external happenstance. As a general rule for modern firearms, this means that the trigger and the entire trigger guard area must be enclosed or encased, and that the material surrounding the trigger must be sturdy enough to prevent outside activity from moving the trigger.

I am aware that holsters years ago (primarily designed for SA or DA revolvers) didn't always cover the trigger. When used with anything other than an SA revolver, these were poor and unsafe designs even with well-trained users because the firearms were not in an inert status. The triggers could be levered back and the gun could discharge without the user ever touching either the firearm or the holster. Similarly, although many people carry in pockets or purses without using an internal holster, the trigger must be protected from external movement just as surely as it would be if it were carried in a belt holster. Allowing the firearm to float around loosely within an oversized compartment, with trigger uncovered and vulnerable to pressure from keys, pens, coins, and other detritus, is simply asking for trouble.

Once the firearm is in an inert status, the holster needs to secure the firearm in that status. It should not be possible for the gun to simply fall out of the holster or wiggle its way out of the carry method. The user should be able to jump, twist, run short distances, and bend over without any chance that the gun will fall out of its inert packaging system.

2) Comfortably conceal

Obviously this isn't a factor for open carry or field holsters. But if you select a holster for concealed carry, that holster should help you conceal the firearm rather than working against your attempts at concealment. Similarly, it needs to be comfortable because if it is not, concealment will be compromised every time you reach to adjust it or fiddle with it -- and because you'll end up leaving the gun at home if the carry method is not comfortable to you.

3) Immediately accessible

A good holster or carry method allows the user to immediately access the gun. If you can't get to it quickly and efficiently, you might as well leave the gun at home.

pax

Gatorpan
January 10, 2010, 01:50 PM
IWB holsters that use clips and not leather strap to go around your belt.

Some 30 years ago while practicing on a range I drew my pistol and the holster came with it!!! Very hard to get a good sight picture after that.

Fortunately you can lots of good IWB holster with leather straps to retain the holster in your belt.

Rafi

raimius
January 10, 2010, 04:57 PM
Gatorpan, I think there have been some improvements in the last 30 years...

pax
January 10, 2010, 05:08 PM
raimius,

Yes -- and no. If I had a dime for every clip or paddle holster I've seen fly downrange in the past ten years, I'd be able to buy a large latte from Starbuck's.

pax

raimius
January 10, 2010, 07:32 PM
I have seen it happen, immediately after the user tightened the holster...

That said, I have had thumb break holsters open accidentally, but I don't consider the entire idea to be dangerous...

tipoc
January 10, 2010, 07:38 PM
Yes -- and no. If I had a dime for every clip or paddle holster I've seen fly downrange in the past ten years, I'd be able to buy a large latte from Starbuck's.

About 33 of them?. Medium latte $3.25 or so. Large may be 37 or so flying downrange. Too many. I hate Starbucks!

tipoc

Gatorpan
January 11, 2010, 03:25 PM
I think Pax is right. They still sell them! Its amazing. But thankfully there are many good IWB holsters around with leather straps going around the belt for positive retention.

Rafi

Glenn Dee
January 11, 2010, 10:19 PM
I sometimes carry in an unsafe manner..A 5 shot in my outer garment pocket, without a holster :eek:.... So I can shoot through my pocket if need be. I also carry a PPk/s tucked in my wasteband, on safe, trigger back, loaded chamber... with no holster :eek:... The pinkie rest on the mag keeps it in place. I guess I'm a disaster waiting to happen...lol

I wont even go into some of my carry techniques from when I worked under-the-covers...