View Full Version : 9mm +P+ againts dogs - Not a good idea
September 14, 2009, 04:03 PM
This may sound weird but I've recently encountered a slight problem at my house - Stray dog infestation.
I didnt really care when I saw them on & off loitering around the lawns and the mango orchard but recently they started growing in number and started causing the following problems (I'm trying to justify my subsequent actions to any animal rights activists that we might have here):
1. Lots of barking, howling and fighting throughout the night.
2. Dog crap through out the lawn.
3. Some of them managed to get in bed with the guard dogs at my house and became really aggressive and my son's now one year old so Im not taking any chances.
4. I was coming home with some important guests and while I was driving towards the house there was a pair in a love lock in the middle of the driveway. Had to honk them away from the road. Was really embarassing.
So today after the #4 incident I was really furious and went out on a little hunting with my Glock 19 & HK USP loaded with +P & +P+ rounds which I thought would be enough for the dogs.
This again might sound weird but none of the dogs that I shot went down on the first shot!
I shot three and they were shot in the chest, neck and shoulders but all that happened was they just ran away screaming. Had to go after them and finish the poor things with a rifle. Then I brought in my HK USP Tactical .45 and even that couldnt get me a clean kill. Being a doglover I really felt bad and left for the servants to do the dirty work and got the mason to work on the cracks in the walls from which they were coming in and going out.
I was going for BIG 4 hunting to Tanzania next month and I had thought of bringing my .45 and a 9mm as side arms which wouldve been a foolish mistake. If the 9mm +P+ or .45 ACP couldnt even keep a dog from running away after getting shot I'm skeptical if it would be able to stop any one of the BIG 4 even if I manage to place followup shots.
I do have a Ruger Redhawk in .44 Mag but I'm kind of not comfortable with revolvers. Got a Desert Eagle .50 AE but again Im not sure if the same could take the extreme conditions in the bush.
September 14, 2009, 04:15 PM
I'm just going to quote a fellow member's prior comment in another post.
September 14, 2009, 04:25 PM
Work on your shot placement, and pick your ammo a little more carefully. A decently placed federal 9mm hydra-shok will stop a wild dog (as will an M-240-B). High pressure rounds are okay, but won't make up for wounding shots. If this is your accepted level of hunting accurcy, I'd either rethink the "big-4" trip, or work allot harder on your shooting between now and the first time you take a poke at a few thousand pounds of bone, muscle, and dynamite. You don't want to come home from Africa with a dead guide on your concience, or worse, looking like a "shaggy tollhouse cookie".
September 14, 2009, 04:26 PM
I've had similar experiences with feral dogs using the same calibers (detailed write up somewhere around here, not gonna repeat it). What it boiled down to was point blank, behind the ear pointing forward on a pit bull & it wasn't enough. If you're carrying a 9mm or .45acp and you are ATTACKED by a dog, by all means shoot to stop the attack. If you're going out to thin the herd of feral dogs, take a rifle.
September 14, 2009, 04:33 PM
+1 on the rifle. Allows for more accurate shot placement.
September 14, 2009, 04:36 PM
Considering I was shooting from a distance of 45-50 yards, the dogs were actually moving, that I was using a pistol and all shots were placed where I wanted them , I think I'm a pretty good shot. Wts an M-240-B?
I didnt go for the head shots because I didnt want a mess all over my lawn.
September 14, 2009, 04:42 PM
What type of +P and +P+ ammo?
The projectile matters more than the chamber pressure when you are talking about performance on critters.
A regular pressure, high-quality HP would probably be more effective than a +P+ FMJ submachinegun load. An el-cheapo HP of a 20 year+ old design would be inferior to a modern HP. And so on...
Wts an M-240-B?
A belt-fed medium machine gun. 7.62x51mm.
September 14, 2009, 04:58 PM
Norinco Chinese 124 gr. +P FMJ and POF SMG FMJ +P+ loads.
I do have Hydrashoks in 115, 124 and 147 grs but I didnt want to waste them on stray dogs
1. They are a rare commodity in our part of the world.
2. If you are lucky enough to find them they sell for about $7-10 USD PER round.
The wounded dogs were finished and Operation Dogcrack was conducted using 7.62x51 (.308 Winchester to be precise) in HK G3 and later by my people using buckshots.
September 14, 2009, 05:31 PM
The only way to stop any animal Dead Right There is a nervous system hit. Anything else will cause the to run away or lay there until they die. Only a head shot is DRT, 50BMG or 9mm.
September 14, 2009, 05:50 PM
50BMG, M-240-B belt fed machine guns... for hunting dogs...
Jeez. Some of you guys sadistically/sarcastically extremists. You'd be ******* Talibans of the feral dog world. lol
I wonder what you'd recommend for my BIG 4 hunt? JDAM?
September 14, 2009, 06:15 PM
I think it would have been a different story if it was +p or +p+ hollowpoints you were using.
September 14, 2009, 06:25 PM
Norinco Chinese 124 gr. +P FMJ and POF SMG FMJ +P+ loads.
The FMJ is probably your problem. Not enough expansion on impact. If you don't want to waste hollow points, I'd say go with the shotgun and buckshot approach.
September 14, 2009, 07:00 PM
Look a .45 APC was not designed to kill at 45 to 50 yards, it was not designed to kill at very close range about 25 yards or less.
September 14, 2009, 07:03 PM
"45 APC was not designed to kill at 45 to 50 yards,"
Had a friend shoot a coyote at 65yrds with a golden saber 45 and it dropped in it's tracks. Not only a great shot off hand but great bullet performance.
September 14, 2009, 07:16 PM
comn-cents, I didn't say it couldn't be done, I said that was not what that it was designed to do.
September 14, 2009, 07:18 PM
cole k 'I didn't say it could be done, I said that was not what that it was designed to do'
So what was it designed to do? I'm just curious.
September 14, 2009, 07:55 PM
This may come as no surprise to you, but an animal does not have the ability to "know it has been shot" and react accordingly. They only know they have been "hurt" and they tend to run until they can no longer do so due to trauma or blood loss. We see this during deer hunting all of the time. I have seen deer with their lungs and heart obliterated with a 7mag run 50-100 yards. Some drop in their tracks, some don't. Unless you shoot an animal (dog, etc.) in the head, there is a good chance that it will take them a while to die.
Theoretically, if a dog were attacking you, you would shoot the dog in the head. A dogs head isn't THAT think so a 9mm or .45 acp should have no problems penetrating the brain. The problem is that a dog is a fast animal, so getting that shot INTO the head may be an issue. With that being said, it might be good to have something that you can get a quick followup shot with. Although my recent incident with a hog has taught me that a hog and a 9mm do not mix, I feel the 9mm would be more than adequate against a charging dog. A chest shot? Maybe not so much...
September 14, 2009, 07:58 PM
Man you are quick, re-read my post edited post.
September 14, 2009, 08:02 PM
Hydra-Shoks aren't that expensive or hard to find.
They're not even the best ammo anymore either. You can get 50 rounds of Speer Gold Dots from ammunitiontogo.com for $25. They also had HST's in last week. Both are good stuff.
I have been checking every day for HST's for my 40 with no luck so far.
September 14, 2009, 08:07 PM
I believe the guy is in Pakistan.
September 14, 2009, 08:33 PM
30-30 should do the trick or buck shot or slugs.
September 14, 2009, 08:38 PM
No offence but 9mm not being enough for dogs is a bunch of bunk. You missed the vitals, plain and simple. Just like with any critter you have to hit the what counts. I've seen 12 ga. gut shot deer run for miles.
As I said, The main mistake was the accuracy of either you, the gun or both. There's a big reason very few hunters use a handgun. Almost none use a semi (except .22LR's). You have to be dang good and so does the gun. Next time, use a shotgun with 4 buck.
It's also a myth that critters die on the spot. A heart or lung shot deer can and will run many times (not all). It may run 10 yards, it may run 200. This includes deer shot with shotguns and rifles such as 7mm Mag.
September 14, 2009, 08:47 PM
I killed a stray dog chasing my horses in a pasture a number of years ago with a 30-30.Easier to hit the head with a rifle than 45-50 yards with a pistol.
September 14, 2009, 08:50 PM
The problem was the FMJ's. Honestly, in your situation I wouldn't have used the hollowpoints either. Really one of the best can be a .22 lr from a rifle to the head. Shotgun will get em but increase the mess. You did fine for not knowing ahead of time. Next time you can always ask us first.
September 15, 2009, 04:14 AM
+p or +p+ makes little difference with FMJ's. They just shoot through the animal, and the rounded point doesn't make much of a permanant wound channel. I've shot rabbits with 9mm FMJ's and had them run quite a ways, and some took a few shots before they quit.
Hollow points are another story. I understand not using them when they're so expensive, but don't expect too much killing ability from FMJ's unless it's a CNS hit.
Hollow points are pretty easy to get here, and aren't that expensive, so that's what I'd use. Given the restrictions on availability and price, I'd use a rifle or shotgun.
September 15, 2009, 06:38 AM
Try birdshot out of a 12 gauge. After all, if it can drop a mountain lion almost instantly, a dog wouldn't stand a chance.
September 15, 2009, 09:31 AM
Neck and shoulder are generally ineffective shots. Chest shots are only immediately effective if you hit something that causes very rapid blood loss. Ammo is a factor too, especially penetration. Critical organs are not all that superficial for good reason. Shot placement is still key. Look up an anatomy drawing of a dog, find the heart or liver, aim for that next time, and see what happens. With a good shot here, they might stagger around for a bit, but shock will set in soon enough that their ability to put up much of a fight should become pretty ineffective. Honestly, an animal's physiology (including humans) is capable of more rebound than most people realize. We're used to seeing people get shot on tv and fall over dead immediately. There's a reason that someone can be pulled from a mangled car accident and make it to the ER alive - animals are pretty resilient. That's just the difference between reality and tv.
September 15, 2009, 11:06 AM
Use a 12ga shotgun-full chock with 4b or 1b and the dogs can be rolled at 50 yards.
September 15, 2009, 11:44 AM
The problem was the FMJ's. Honestly, in your situation I wouldn't have used the hollowpoints either. Really one of the best can be a .22 lr from a rifle to the head.
+1. On that topic, .22Mag would be even better. .17HMR would be better still if the ranges are under ~125m; it shoots flat as a laser beam at that range, but the little bitty bullets lose lots of energy at long range, so I don't know if I'd want to use one on a large stray dog farther than that.
The main problem with .17HMR is that I'd want a rifle capable of lightning-quick follow-up shots, but the round is no longer recommended for use in semi-automatics (see recent TFL thread), and I'm not sure if lever-actions like the Henry Varmint Express are readily available outside of North America. OTOH I'm not sure if .22Mag and/or .17HMR ammo is available either, so this may all be moot. :(
September 15, 2009, 12:00 PM
If you're placing ok at 50 yards, running, you're a fine shot. As mentioned many times, the bullet is the key. I'd use a High Velocity 22LR with HP on the dogs. I'd pack my 44 Mag on the Big 4 Hunt.
September 15, 2009, 12:07 PM
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