View Full Version : Moral dilemma
February 26, 2009, 09:13 PM
I work with this guy. He's a certified gun crank. I enjoy working with him for a number of reasons. Good guy to work with professionally in my line of work (I'm a surveyor/field engineer for a construction company, and he's a civil construction foreman).
I enjoy talking with him about guns and hunting.
He admitted--nay, bragged to me today about poaching deer on federal land. Says he does it every year. Openly admitted and bragged about not caring about limits and restrictions. Would shoot any deer, any time, with any rifle, even .17 HMR. Admitted to spreading corn on federal land to attract deer. Told me that even though he had a buck tag he'd still shoot does and not tag them. Even if there was a spread limit he'd shoot nubbin bucks and not tag them. If he bagged a buck with the right spread he would tag it and show it off to the game warden, but he kept going on and on about the various ways in which he illegally takes deer. Huge ****-eating grin on his face the entire time.
I come from Wyoming. Maybe I'm naive, but my recollection of hunting and environmentalism in Wyoming was that wildlife conservation was vitally important to the local ecology. The entire reason why the limits change and the amount of tags for bucks and does change every year is precisely for species population management. The entire reason that we can hunt and harvest deer and the population continues to survive year after year is precisely because of the limits on tags. The sole reason that deer weren't extinct in Wyoming decades ago was because of wildlife conservation and hunting limits.
Maybe things are different in Texas, but everything I know about ecology, environment and law are pressing me to turn this guy in, regardless of my working relationship with him. He's a poacher. He not only hurts the local ecology, he gives all hunters a bad name. His opinion is "there's plenty of 'em out there". I mostly like the guy, I enjoy working with him, but I'm considering calling Texas' Forest Service (or whatever the proper department is called) and cluing them in to his hunting locations on federal land. Did I mention that he told me exactly where he hunts?
It'll really suck for me next week if this guy just happens to be a member of this forum.
February 26, 2009, 09:15 PM
I'd turn him in, not a doubt in my mind.
February 26, 2009, 09:31 PM
I'd drop a dime on him in a heartbeat.
February 26, 2009, 09:32 PM
Not a tough call for me, id wait till next season starts, get his licence plate # and wait for him to do wrong and turn him in. Can place an anonomus call, tell them you know the guy, hes told you things and they need to watch him. Guys like that make it that much harder for guys who go by the rules,to find places to hunt, it gets worse and worse every year and NEEDS to be stopped. I lost a prime archery spot due to a tresspassing hunter shooting a land owners cow about 6 years ago. The moron left his arrow in it even, when i called to see if i could hunt, he told me he needed to talk to me about it, when i got their he told me what happend, they even cought the guy, but i still couldnt hunt. Yeah im still PO about it.
February 26, 2009, 09:47 PM
I hate poachers, I'd be tempted to make a call.
February 26, 2009, 09:58 PM
If I thought he was a blowhard with a false sense of bravado, I'd probably ignore it.:barf:
But if I thought he was being genuine, I'd drive to the DNR office if I couldn't find a quarter!:mad:
February 26, 2009, 10:05 PM
I wasn't there, but your description of his big grin while he was telling you makes me wonder if he wasn't yanking your chain just because he could see it was getting to you.
Since you have a good working relationship with him, if you really think he might be poaching, why don't you have a real conversation about it. Seems like you've got a lot better chance at changing his mind AND maintaining your working relationship if you have a genuine discussion about it rather than "dropping a dime" and at best getting him cited and angry at you.
February 26, 2009, 10:09 PM
It takes a grievous offense against an innocent human to get me to snitch... If against me I usually "deal with it" myself... I just ain't innocent enough my own self with various transgressions including simple traffic laws to point elbows at anyone else. Had enough times in the past where I felt I was more scrutinized then a crook when calling the police into it.
Besides I remember as a child the rhyme we used on tattle tails right before we bloodied his nose or blacked his eye... "Snitches git stitches..."
Then as an adult amongst a nefarious bunch of rednecks, bikers and redneck bikers it was "Snitches are a dieing breed"...
So I would just leave it go and let them have what justice may befall them happen in it's own time and way...
what goes around, comes around.
My karma ran over my dogma!
February 26, 2009, 10:35 PM
The sad truth be known, there are many, many, many people who's stories cannot be believed. Having known so many liars in my life, I do not believe anything that I do not see. Any story that has excesses in its telling should be even more suspect.
February 26, 2009, 10:41 PM
Turn his butt into the authorities immediately.
Just think, if everyone thought this was okay to poach, there would be no more game for us law abiding citizens to hunt. Poachers are thiefs, cowards and absolutely without moral character. They feel the law does not apply to them and they can do anything they wish. That really ticks me off when I hear anything about poachers. Maybe it is my LE background, but I just love hunting too much to have these people screw it up for the rest of us.
If you determine he is 100% real, it is your duty to call the hotline and turn him in.
February 26, 2009, 10:42 PM
Sucks to be in that situation, doesn't it? Sort of like knowing a friend is cheating on his wife who is a friend as well... I would just tell this guy what he is doing is wrong in your eyes, you won't help him do it, and you don't wish to hear anymore about it. Who knows if he really is doing what he says he is? His actions will catch up to him soon enough. Remember, you do work with this guy, no point making enemies out of him and all his friends and having to deal with that as well. If he keeps bragging like that and being that brazen, he will get caught.
February 26, 2009, 10:46 PM
I would contact the autorities. If his story is true, they can persue it. If it is just a line of crap, they will find out. If he is telling the truth, he needs to pay the consequences for violating the law. If he is lying, he needs to realize that those kinds of brags make the rest of the honest, and law-abiding hunters and firearms enthusiasts look bad.
February 26, 2009, 11:08 PM
Remember, all evil needs to succeed is for good people to do nothing about it.
February 27, 2009, 01:47 AM
"There was nothing worse in my neighborhood, than being a rat."
February 27, 2009, 03:40 AM
growing up we were dirt poor. our meat came from what we caught/shot. we hunted fished year round.
now that we aren't poor we only hunt during the season with tags.
February 27, 2009, 03:56 AM
It's a dilemma, I'll give you that.
But it's not a MORAL dilemma, the MORAL part isn't a dilemma at all, it's very straightforward.
February 27, 2009, 04:22 AM
First step is as someone said, determin if you are dealing with a blowhard here.
If you find that you think he is telling the truth then under the buss he goes.
While I am as guilty as anyone of turning a blind eye to small transgressions what is being described here is not of that nature.
Seems to me there is a difference between the guy who has a drink or two to much at a once a year event and then creeps down a mile of dirt road to his house at a couple of miles a hour and the guy who gets toasted on a regular basis and then joins the rest of us on the interstate at 70 MPH.
February 27, 2009, 05:49 AM
Nothing but trouble will come from being a quisling or rat.
If he is telling you true, the Feds will have him in good time.
Poachers and Federal game wardens are nothing but trouble, stay away from both!
February 27, 2009, 05:51 AM
Dilemnas provide an interesting way to observe humanity,and ourselves.
Just look real close at the guy you see in the mirror,and ask yourself some questions.You want to keep liking that guy.You don't want him to chew on his guts,or feel ashamed. Take good care of who you see when you shave.
February 27, 2009, 07:33 AM
I come from Wyoming. Maybe I'm naive, but my recollection of hunting and environmentalism in Wyoming was that wildlife conservation was vitally important to the local ecology.
It is a common mistake in modern times to confuse conservation with environmentalism. These are two separate and distinct things. Without a long dissertation, the short version is; environmetalists are loons and conservationists are good people trying to conserve our natural resources. An example of this would be a deer over population problem, a conservationist would want to organize managed hunts, and/or introduce predators. An environmetalist would want to try giving the deer birth control and hugging a tree while prying to Gaia to help them.:barf:
As to your problem with your 'friend,' I myself would be hesitant to be an informer, as has been noted no one likes a rat. Then again it takes a very foolish person to boast of their illicit activities. I suppose you should let your conscience be your guide.
February 27, 2009, 08:00 AM
"The man" will get him one of these days. You can laugh about it when he gets caught of his own accord, but if you snitch on the guy, that is something you have got to live with. Poaching is a felony. Convicted felons can't buy guns. Maybe try talking to him about it and convincing him that his little escapades aren't worth a felony offense.
February 27, 2009, 08:57 AM
Let me repeat, evil can only continue when good people ignore it. History if full of such examples.
February 27, 2009, 09:00 AM
Remember, all evil needs to succeed is for good people to do nothing about it.
Amen and +100. There shouldn't even be a consideration here, if you genuinely believe he's engaged in such prolific poaching.....turn his a$$ in. People like that don't deserve the right to hunt or own firearms, they've proven that with their own irresponsible actions.
Your own decision to become a "rat" is up to you, but personally I don't think I would be ok with myself if I didn't let someone know. Nobody earns a clean conscience by making everyone happy.
February 27, 2009, 09:11 AM
Anyone with a conscience would turn his ass in. As would any true Texan. He's a bubba and
his behavior is a disgrace.
Poachers are a plague.
February 27, 2009, 09:18 AM
Maybe things are different in Texas
I can assure you that they aren't...at least where I come from. I'd turn him in in a heart beat. All it takes is one guy like that to make all hunters look like nothing but trash.
February 27, 2009, 09:51 AM
I would turn him in, at least notify the dept. of Parks and Wildlife. If they contacted him it would likely end up that he'd be too scared to continue.
February 27, 2009, 12:18 PM
I guess I'd spend a bit more time trying to figure out if he's just blowing smoke. However, I've never run into somebody who'd openly brag about poaching if they weren't a mixture of poacher and "judgementally challenged". I can't see an honest guy making up that much of a line of blarney. But, it's worth holding off doing anything until you're more convinced about his wrong-doing.
He's surely not "subsistence hunting", which could be forgivable. Good job and all that.
So, if I'm convinced that he's a crook, I'm gonna tell the TP&WD folks, but with the caveat that I don't know from direct observation that he's doing more than bragging and leg-pulling.
Sorta like a bunch of coin dealers after a show, bragging about some of their deals. One looked across the table at the lady with me and asked, "What do you do?" She replied, "I'm a Special Investigator with IRS." His immediate response was, "I'm pleased to meet you. I'm the biggest liar in the state of Oklahoma."
No moral dilemma, but facts are better than BS.
February 27, 2009, 12:25 PM
My policy in such situations is see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil.
There's really no need for you to snitch, anyway. Guys who break the law and then run off at the mouth about it always get busted eventually. All you have to do is wait; he'll eventually get what's coming to him.
February 27, 2009, 12:29 PM
I'm not sure about calling the authorities, you really have no proof except for his say-so, and he may be baiting you. My opinion would be to avoid going hunting with him at the very least, because someday he will get caught and anyone with him will be at least an accomplice. I had a friend once who I introduced to hunting, and he started poaching any time he could. Always offered me venison from his freezer. I stayed as far away as possible.
February 27, 2009, 01:10 PM
I'd talk to him and try to find out if his supposed poaching is actually poaching or him just tootin' his own horn. If I truly believed that he was poaching I would try to convince him that it's a bad idea and get him to stop without involving the DNR. If that didn't work I would probably drop an anonymous tip about a poacher.
February 27, 2009, 01:42 PM
Hhhmm..anyone see Good Fellas?
"Go f yourself, Tommy", says Spider...
"What are you gonna do about it?", says Jimmy...
"Bang, Bang, Bang, Bang, Bang, Bang, Bang, Bang!!!", says Tommy's 1911.
"Eh, whatever, he was a RAT...his whole family are RATS....he was gonna grow up to be a RAT!!!" says Tommy.
"Wow, killed for sticking up for himself, but excused for accusations of being a rat...seems no one cares what happens to a rat, whether true or false.", says me.
February 27, 2009, 02:35 PM
Let me repeat, evil can only continue when good people ignore it. History if full of such examples.
February 27, 2009, 02:40 PM
I am not going to advise the OP what to do.He has to work that out.
I do not accept the notion advising law enforcement a person is bragging about unlawful unnecessary killing make the good ,responsible citizen a rat or a snitch.
I would turn in a pedophile,a wife or kid batterer,a heroin or meth dealer,or a
I suppose baby rapers,wife and kid beaters ,drug pushers,and poachers would think that makes me a rat.
Gee,they might get a felony and not be able to have a gun.Too bad.I don't care.Felons committing crimes with guns threaten the right to bear arms for all of us.Guys who kill deer any time,anywhere,with a 17 HMR and a big grin on their face help make hunters and hunting look like crap to people who could have been introduced to legitimate hunting.
I don't care if somebody has lost work and has a hungry family does what he needs to do,but this guy just likes killing,with no respect for anything.
There is no "Rat" to it.
February 27, 2009, 02:44 PM
If the bragger is not lying, he's exactly what gives hunters and gun owners a partially bad reputation. This should be stopped.
February 27, 2009, 03:13 PM
if what he is telling you is true, and is proven to be true. the person is an scumbag that needs to swing. people who poach and don't get caught everytime should know better than to 1. poach,2. poach and tell others about it.
if you are killing animals out of food desperation on your own land,cleaning and butchering it yourself its kinda hard to be caught. unless you have trespassers or nosy neighbors.
until laws and regulations came about you could simply walk out your door and shoot or trap animals for food. now that there is laws,etc in place to regulate so everyone has a fair chance to take game without screwing up the system of nature,they should be obeyed, if they are broken there should be a penalty,which there is.
if its not true and they are just yanking yer chain, kidding around about things like that are not funny. and should not be made up or discussed.
February 27, 2009, 03:24 PM
When you play the game, you play by the rules... if he's just out thumbing his nose to the law then turn his butt in... no question. The only problem is that I wouldn't turn him in without direct proof, which it doesn't sound like you have at this point.
When it's no longer a game...rules aren't relevant... as others have stated, if he were subsistence hunting... that's another issue, although rather than encouraging him in hunting deer, I might try to hook him up with a guy that had a hog problem if that were the case...
Of course, his whole behavior with you is not consistent with someone who is forced into being a subsistence hunter...they've got better things to do...
February 27, 2009, 04:38 PM
The authorities are going to need hard evidence rather than heresay.
February 27, 2009, 11:35 PM
Hopefully he's just bragging and it's pure BS.
February 28, 2009, 12:00 AM
some folks just like to pull your chain and watch the reaction:p
February 28, 2009, 12:08 AM
King of BS was once my buddy! He would run a line of crap so wide and deep just for C&G that the boss had a note in his check once that said that he would have to be "let go" if he ran a line that caused an uproar risking the resignation of 80 equipment operators again...:D My nick name "bernie" and "Bernard" were cuz he felt a few folks didn't need to know my real name and the nick stuck in many circles of acquaintances. To this day if asked by an official "WHATZ YER NAME BOY?"... "Bernie... Bernie Sir..." Funny how things like this last 20 years with little use...
February 28, 2009, 12:31 AM
I think poachers do it mostly for the thrill of doing something illegal. It gives them a sense of power and a rush that is almost intoxicating.
I wouldn't be surprised, though, if he doesn't just kill the deer and let them lay. If he's bragging about it to you, you can bet he's told lots of other people. I'd phone in an anonymous tip to your local poaching hotline and tell them about where he hunts and then let them take it from there.
February 28, 2009, 05:48 AM
If this guy is for real in what he`s telling you, he`s a head case with deeper mental issue`s than maybe even you know. Killing something for no other reason than to watch it die?:confused::barf:. Hell he gives poachers a bad name(didn`t think that was possible) . Shooting does,button bucks- -CENSORED--CENSORED--CENSORED-? As far as the posters bringing up the 'rat' issue: Goodfella`s was a movie based on org.crime where illegal activities were being done for a profit. Killing(shootings) done to prove point or business. Not just killing to be killing!!! Doesn`t compare. If I thought this guy was telling me the truth I wouldn`t hesitate in turning him in. He`s the cancer that eats away at hunters rights.:mad: P.S. I shouldn`t have started off my morning with this thread until I had my first cup of 'jo'.
February 28, 2009, 02:10 PM
My bringing up Goodfellas was to raise the point that rats are often retaliated on, and no one feels bad for them. If he is gonna rat, he better watch his back.
What if his "friend" figures out it was him? What if he comes across this thread one day? What if the person who takes the annonymous phone call recognizes his voice & lets out that he knows who ratted?
There are a million different ways his "friend" could find out, and the results would all be the same: bad.
Now, I'm not saying don't rat; I'm saying if you do, then be prepared to have to watch your back for the rest of your life...
Are you prepared for that? If so, then by all means, go for it...
February 28, 2009, 02:25 PM
I love all the Gangster movie lines... like you guys are all mafia dudes, living on the hard streets of the eastside...yo!:rolleyes:
TURN HIS SORRY BUTT IN!
You can use my cell phone if you would like :D
February 28, 2009, 07:28 PM
robfromsc: my parents are from naples, italy, and the first language i spoke was italian. think about it...;)
March 3, 2009, 02:13 AM
Unfortunately all you have at this point is a blowhard guy and hearsay evidence. There's absolutely no point in turning him in at this point, but once you see any evidence to back up what he says I'd be the first one to call it in. Poachers are simply stealing game from you and me and other legitimate hunters.
March 3, 2009, 09:49 AM
Ignore him until you have proof. If and when you have the proof that he indeed is poaching then you should turn him in. Right now it is nothing but hearsay from him. Like some of the other posters have said, "he could be just pullen your chain". As to how you would get proof that he is poaching is beyond me, you will have to figure that one out for yourself. A thief is a thief, they steal from all of us. When you kill a doe you not only kill one animal you kill all the generations that she could have produced and on and on down the line.:mad: As far as being a snitch so what. As a hunter and a sportsman you are morally and ethically required to turn this individual in if he is breaking the law. It's no different than someone breaking into your house and stealing from you personally.:mad:
March 3, 2009, 03:22 PM
If you let the DOW know what he has told you,locations,patterns,etc,some days they will have a little time on their hands.
For them,hunting poachers is about like hunting coyotes.They can sit back with optics and watch,put out a stuffed deer,etc.That part is their job.
And,you know,its not a bad thing to have some game wardens who know which side you are on.
Might be good for a suggestion or a land owner referal,etc
March 3, 2009, 08:04 PM
I appreciate everyone's responses. I have held off responding until I had a large body of replies. I have examined every one and I will say that cooler heads have prevailed. This man is a known poop-talker and -stirrer. Rather than jump the gun I will continue to gather evidence before I make a decision.
For those of you who think he should swing at the end of a long rope, I assure you that if further evidence concludes that he is indeed a poacher then I absolutely will be notifying the proper authorities.
March 3, 2009, 11:55 PM
March 4, 2009, 12:04 AM
March 4, 2009, 07:20 PM
Okay. Enough for now. If the OP gets more followup info, it would be good to hear about it.
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