View Full Version : Another Drilling Question

November 3, 2008, 09:46 PM
This 16g / 8.67 three barrel was owned by Joshua Green, a Seattle pioneer,


Can you help me determine the manufacturer and value?







November 3, 2008, 10:57 PM
The general pattern and finish (and the Krupp steel stamp) shows it's German, but there should also be a series of proofmarks and make/manufacturer marks on either the receiver or the barrel (likely on the tops of the barrels).

Jim Watson
November 4, 2008, 08:41 AM
There are a lot of nice looking Continental guns without a maker's name or trademark. Something put together by the gunmaker's guild for domestic sale, no indications of origin but the usual plethora of proofmarks. Europeans of the day seemed less impressed by brand names than Americans.

November 10, 2008, 07:15 PM
Thanks for your responses gentlemen. I took a few more closeup pictures of the stamping on the barrel that I hope might shed more light on its origin.

Also, who (gunsmith/shop) specializes on this type of gun?

Thanks again,





November 10, 2008, 07:28 PM
Very cool drilling.

Hows about a few more full gun picts for the peanut gallery?

James K
November 10, 2008, 08:20 PM
The barrel markings indicate that the steel was made by the famous Krupp firm of Essen, Germany. "Primastahl" or "prime steel" was a Krupp trade name for its highest quality steel. The barrels are solid steel, not built up or Damascus.

The gun is of extremely high quality and likely cost quite a bit when it was purchased; your "pioneer" knew guns. The shotgun barrels are 16 gauge, the rifle barrel is 8mm for the 8x57JR. That takes a bit of explaining. The bullet diameter is 8mm; the 57 is the length in millimeters of the cartridge case, the common European way of designating a cartridge. The "J" stands for "Infanterie" (the I and J in old German were the same letter), the "R" stands for the rimmed version. The rimless version (8x57J) was originally made for the German military in their Model 1888 Commission Rifle. For the shotgun, of course, a rimmed cartridge was necessary for extraction of the empty cartridge case. The bullet diameter of the 8x57J and 8x57JR was .318"; a later 8x57 cartridge uses a larger diameter bullet of .323"; it is called the 8x57JS or 8x57JRS for the rimmed version. The later cartridge, used by the Germans in both World Wars, should not be fired in that gun.

The proof marks: Crown U is the definitive proof, indicating that the gun was tested ("proved") with an over-loaded cartridge. The Crown B indicates that proving was done in the finished state, after final fitting and bluing. The N indicates that the barrels were proved with Nitro (smokeless) powder, the W that the shotgun barrels are choked, and the S was the proof mark for smoothbore barrels.

The 7.7mm over 57 is the same as the 8x57 mentioned above, but 7.7mm is the actual bore diameter, smaller than the groove diameter. It was measured with a plug gauge. "St m G" over "14.6 g" means the rifle barrel was proved with a Stahlmantel Geschoss or steel jacket bullet (not a lead bullet), weighing 14.6 grams (225 grains).

The gun was certainly made before 1940, and probably just before WWI. It could be later, but the use of 8x57JR rather than 8x57JRS argues for an early date.


Jim Watson
November 10, 2008, 08:33 PM
It won't tell you the maker, the dollar value, or any but the most general age, but I can ID the proof marks as follows:

Crown N - Nitro (smokeless) proof test.
Crown G - for barrels firing solid projectiles, the rifle barrel of a drilling
Eagle - Provisional proof, before assembly.
Eagle U - Definitive proof, finished gun.
I can't read the squiggles over the "57".
57 may be the case length.
6.25 is usually the BORE diameter of the rifle barrel, probably a 6.5 mm barrel
Except that St M G/14.6 gm refers to a 225 gr steel jacketed bullet which doesn't suit a 6.5mm calibre. A 225 gr bullet is more like an 8x57 JR.
Hmm. I guess you will have to eyeball the caliber of the rifle barrel.

Crown S - for a shotgun barrel
Crown W - means it is choked
Circle 16 and 16/1 mean it is a 16 gauge with 2 9/16" chambers. If it were for 2 3/4" shells, it would be marked 70.

Stahl Krupp Essen - means it is made out of steel from the Krup mill in Essen, Germany

The closest any of those proof marks tie down the period of manufacture is sometime between 1912 and 1939.

November 10, 2008, 09:17 PM
Thanks for the detailed information gentlemen. Looking for someone to "detail" this gun.










November 10, 2008, 09:20 PM
Can you pass me a Kleenex to wipe up the drool? What craftsmanship!

December 3, 2008, 05:29 PM
I'll betcha a nickle that is whats know as a "Guild" gun. Often, certain groups of gunmakers (what we would call "artisans" today) would form loose associations and build guns featuring the finest work of several individual makers. So one guy would do the stock, another the barrels, another the locks, ditto engraving and finishing. They were usually built as display models to promote the gunmaking skills of a certain area, or association.
Beautiful Drilling!

December 5, 2008, 12:32 AM
As my son would say - sweeeeeeet! Definitely a wall-hanger!

Bill DeShivs
December 5, 2008, 01:47 AM
It is a very nice gun. The engraving is very good, but not of "master engraver" quality.