View Full Version : SxS with a rifled barrel

david hergenroeder
October 10, 2008, 10:32 AM
I aquired this beautiful firearm from a lady friend whose father recently passed away.
It is a side by side shotgun with exposed hammers, and a rifled barrel underneath. Every piece of metal is heavily engraved. With a Stag and Boar on one side of the receiver and Hound and a Fox on the other. The Hound and the Stag appear in front of the trigger guard. The Fox and the Boar are engraved into a stap along side the checkered pistol grip. It has two triggers. A selector lever on the top and a lever along the trigger guard to breach load.
There are no serial numbers but both barrels are stamped underneath with what appears to be a FAN, Crowns with "W" and "U" under them, the number 16 inside a cirle and 17/1. In addition, the rifled barrel is stamped 8.8mm a fan and crown "U".
The name ERNST KUMMER and SUHL are engraved on the top side of both barrels. FLUSS STAHL is also stamped there as well.

It is beautiful firearm and appears to be only "slightly used" The blueing on the barrels is not pitted. there is no rust at all. The stock I have been told is black walnut and has a cheek piece.

If anyone has any information concerning the weapon as well as an idea of it's approximate value and age, please respond.

I have tried to post photos, I have several. Perhaps I can attach them to an email

thanks David

Bill DeShivs
October 10, 2008, 12:07 PM
It's called a "drilling." These guns were popular hunting guns in Europe. Most are very well made.

October 10, 2008, 01:25 PM
Most drillings (from the German "drei" - "three") are nice collectables, even if they can't be fired any more. This specific one should be examined for a hands-on evaluation, and by someone who can determine the proper chambering(s); the shotgun barrels are in 16 gauge, but almost certainly for the older short-chambered shells. The "8.8" is the bore diameter of the rifle barrel, but the Germans had 5 or 6 different cartridges that it might be chambered for (9.3x57mm, 9.3x70mm, 9.3x72mm, etc), so the value will depend in part on what it's actually chambered for. Pictures of the proofs would help in dating it, but it sounds like this is a pre-WW1 drilling, and the marks show it was made by Ernst (Kummer? Kommer? Some German script can be hard to decipher) in Suhl, the German gunmaking capital before WW2. "Fluss Stahl" means that the gun was made with fluid steel, instead of wrought iron or Damascus. Most of these guns also had cocking indicators and beatifully-carved horn trigger-guards.

Jim Watson
October 10, 2008, 01:39 PM
The "fan" is probably a small stamp of the German Imperial Eagle, used in many proof marks before the Nazi takeover.

Crown U is the general proof test, Crown W means a shot barrel so marked is choked.

As said, 8.8 is the BORE diameter in mm.
I think it is more than an even chance that a hammer drilling's rifle barrel is a 9.3x72R. That is a rather low powered cartridge comparable to our .38-55 and not to be mistaken for the big powerful 9.3x74R which is between .35 Whelen and .375 H&H.
But it would take a chamber cast to be sure, there are several others that it might be.

It is probably WW II loot, confiscated from a German hunter and brought back by a GI because it was pretty and unusual.

Mike Irwin
October 10, 2008, 01:44 PM
If it's a two barrel, it's more properly called a Vierling.

Jim Watson
October 10, 2008, 03:03 PM
Well, the OP says:
"It is a side by side shotgun with exposed hammers, and a rifled barrel underneath."
I read that as two shot plus one rifle = drilling.

And a Vierling is a four barrelled gun.

A side by side double rifle-shot combination is a buscheflinte in Germany, a Cape Gun in England and English Africa.

October 10, 2008, 03:10 PM
Actually, a "vierling" is FOUR barrels; two shotgun barrels, a major-calibre rifle barrel, and a minor-calibre rifle barrel. Ein, zwei, drei, vier, funf, sechs, seiben.... etc. Usually, a side-by side rifle/shotgun is known as a "buchseflinte" ("rifle-shotgun") in German, while over/under patterns have "bock" added to them; an over/under drilling is normally called a "bockdrilling". The highest I've seen pictures of was of something that might be called a "funfling", with two side by side shotgun barrels, two over/under rifle barrels below them, and a .22 RF barrel inset into the rib between them all.

October 12, 2008, 06:26 PM
The Germans were pretty anal, and still are, about markings & proof.

If a rifle barrel's marked "8.8(mm)", then it's definitely no 9.3 cartridge, as it would have been marked for the larger bullet.

Your Kummer drilling's rifle barrel's most likely chambered for the 9x57R.

I can't recall if anyone still makes this ammo, but shells for it can be made from 7x57R brass, available in loaded form from Sellier&Bellot (sp).


Jim Watson
October 12, 2008, 08:39 PM
Could be, if the inspector was very careful about his choice of gauge.

But it could also be a 9x70 (.360 W.R.) or a 9x72R based off the 9.3 case.
No way for the OP to know for sure without a chamber cast and bore slug.

October 12, 2008, 09:17 PM
You're forgetting that the 8.8 is the BORE diameter, not the GROOVE diameter; 9.3 minus 8.8 leaves .5 of a millimetre, which, divided by 2, leaves .25 of a millimetre on each side for the depth of rifling. It will be one of the 9.3 cartridges, but the only way to tell which one is to take a chamber cast.

Jim Watson
October 12, 2008, 10:08 PM
.25 mm = .0098", that is awful deep rifling. US standards are about half that.

I still THINK it is a 9.3 but if everything was just right it could be a 9mm.